DIY Driver tune up / DIY fitting

Howard JonesHoward Jones Members Posts: 8,467 ✭✭
edited Nov 28, 2018 in WRX Club Techs #1
Ive seen the same questions over and over, and many of the readers dont have access to club fitters or work shops who can assist, so they are left to them self. Many is asking for help to cut down a driver, and what happens if...and so on, but before you do anything at all to club length,read this post, and then you will be able to "re-fit" your own driver as good as possible, without any high tech equipment at all.



Here is a DIY method to find the right club Length, Total weight & Swing weight balance.

Get a whiteboard pen, some graffa tape, some lead tape or a few coins. (Dimes is nice)



- Mark the ball with a dot, facing sweet spot at address

- Hit a few balls and look for impact marks.

- Against the heel side - Shaft is too long

- All over the face - Shaft is too long (might be to low head weight)

- Out against the toe mostly - Shaft is to short*

- IDEAL impact spot more than 70 %, about maximum club length (within 3/4 of an inch large circle og IDEAL spot)

- Ideal impact spot is the upper toe side part of that marked with a SMILEY



The SMILEY shows the absolute ideal impact spot. This is a bit toe side where club speed is higher than mid face, with a PTR/Smash factor of ABOVE 1.5, where ball speed can be up to 3 Mph higher = 6 yards more carry than absolute center of face from the extra ball speed alone. To get there, a driver "to the shorter side", is beneficial. Loft is also a tad higher, and gear effect on face will eat some spin, so here you can gain launch without adding spin, but not if you get to high on the face, then PTR/ Smash factor drops, and you loose ball speed and distance.



IDEAL impact spot is both a question of COR but mostly a question of where Vertical Center of Gravity is located.

Impact below will add spin, impact above will cut of spin, so the cross mark on the face is VCOG.

This is how vertical gear effect add or cut of spin, look at the smileys and what spin value we can expect at that spot.



Here is how you can measure out VCOG yourself, if your club head can be taken off the shaft.

If its a connector type head, add the few grams of the connector to the empty hosel.

You need a vise and a ballpoint pen of the type we push the button in the back to get the tip out.



Put the pen in the vise PEN TIP IN and UP, as strait up and down as you can.

Now put the head face down on the pen tip, follow the center line heel to toe, and "search" for VCOG up and down between sole and crown. ALL heads on the marked has a VCOG ABOVE the center line of the face.

No matter head, VCOG will be somewhere on the RED Line (se the "twist face" photo above), so we dont have to search much of the face to find it.



When VCOG is found, the head should be able to rest without your support on the pen tip, and now, you just hold the head in position with one hand, and push the pen button with the other hand, and you get a mark on VCOG



Be aware of that most club head has a VCOG located a bit higher on the face than the SLDR.



DIAL IN LENGTH AND TEE HEIGHT



Club length

- To "simulate" different club lengths, put a 1/2 inch wide piece of tape on top of your grip, as you "chopped" that part of.Take your grip lower than the tape, and hit another ball - Look for impact marks. Keep on adjusting, until you gets "out of heel area" and into "center to slight toe." When you found MID face, adjust tee height, to adjust impact height.



Club length and Tee height. - how to dial in

MAKE YOUR OWN RULER THIS WAY

Club , Shaft and Hosel anatomy shown.

(Advanced version with Lie angle Gauge, see the bottom of this post #1 )



SW value - Feel of head weight

- If your club head becomes to light (to low feel of head weight), put a piece of tape on the butt of your club head (to protect it from scratches), then put a coin on the tape, and seal it with some tape on top of it.

- A dime is a "dust" more than 2 grams, who equals to 1 Swing weight point (rules of thumb*)

- Gripping down 0.5 will give the feeling of losing 3 Swing weight points / 6 grams / 3 x a dime from the club head. *On a driver at 44” 1 SW point is more like 1.6 grams as lead tape on the sole.



But don't "trust" the standard value of the Club to be right for you. Don't be afraid to try both higher and lower swing weight than standard to find YOURS.



How to "simulate" a higher shaft /total weight.

Total weight is mostly influenced from shaft weight, and when going shorter, it not unusual to want more shaft weight, and we can simulate a higher shaft weight by adding wgt where the SHAFTs balance point is. (without grip and connector)

If we dont know it. just use "the middle of the shaft" since most shafts is "plus minus" the middle and not by much



This way we get to test / simulate a suggested higher shaft weight, AND how it influence on the clubs balance / feel of head vs shaft weight since we added the weight on the balance point where the added weight will end "real life" if we actually made this shaft change.



NOTES

- Remember when you grip down, grip size goes down, and your grip might become to "tight".

A way to avoid this, if you first decided to do something about club length, buy a few cheap grips, and cut of the butt cap, so there is a hole straight trough. Mark the shaft, but don’t cut it, add new grip tape from the cut mark and down, and the put on the butt cap less grip, all the way down, so the part you plan to cut off comes out of the grip end. Now you can test your new club length with full return.



If you found that the club you grip down on, and added weight to, becomes too soft, or you just wants it to be more stiff, then part of shortening or sometimes all should be cut from the tip side. This test will help you to find out before you just cut it and maybe spoil your chance to make it right at first attempt.



General info on tip trimming Graphite shafts

Flex dont change much when we tip trim a Graphite shaft, and compared to Parallel steel, we can use half as a rule of thumb. A DG Parallel steel shaft, respond with 2 CPM for each 0.25, while the average on Graphite woods is only 1 CPM for each 0.25. But, when the tip section itself gets shorter, there will be less tip to flex, and by that we change launch more than flex, when we tip trim a Graphite wood. We CANT tip trim a R flex to become a S, just forget that.



If we look on Drivers VS Woods, and follow the shaft manufacturer suggested tip trim for woods when we add weight to a driver head, the most common is 1/8 tip trim for each 2.5 grams added, but check the manufacturers web page for tip trim for your shaft. Always measure how much tip there is to tip trim before you jump to it. Remember you need at least full insertion, plus the ferrule left.



PS! Some Graphite shafts is butt trim only also for woods, so always check for info before you cut the shaft. You can follow the same steppes for tune up on all clubs in your bag except your putter, but you find Putter tuning below here.



DIY RULER with LIE ANGLE GAUGE

DYÌ Balance point ruler for Swing weight calc.

Use the web bases service here and enter Balance point and totale weight.

http://www.leaderboard.com/swingwt.htm



Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • @@@@@@ Posts: 102 ✭✭
    Are there any tell tale signs that total weight is too high or too low?
  • trhodetrhode Fitter / Builder Members Posts: 1,954 ✭✭
    Well said Howard!



    Measure twice, cut once!!!
  • ERUddOHERUddOH Posts: 93 ClubWRX
    Cool, so if I understand this, if I am looking at a Geek No Brainer for example, which is heavy for a driver head at 206 grams, using this rule of thumb I would tip a driver shaft about 1/2" (1/8 x 3) more than manufacturer recommended since this is about 6 grams heavier than the 200 "standard" head weight? This makes sense as the heavier weight might flex the shaft more. Then just adjust the overall length for swingweight?
  • Howard JonesHoward Jones Members Posts: 8,467 ✭✭
    @@@ wrote:


    Are there any tell tale signs that total weight is too high or too low?




    If shaft weight / Total weight is to high, it would be visible at Transition on top of the swing.

    - It will look like the club is frozen to something, and has to be "pulled" free, and the player will move his hips and lower back sideways to do that. Its very easy to see that he struggles, even if he say it feels OK.



    If the club is to light, his tempo timing will suffer, and become variable from swing to swing.
  • Howard JonesHoward Jones Members Posts: 8,467 ✭✭
    ERUddOH wrote:


    Cool, so if I understand this, if I am looking at a Geek No Brainer for example, which is heavy for a driver head at 206 grams, using this rule of thumb I would tip a driver shaft about 1/2" (1/8 x 3) more than manufacturer recommended since this is about 6 grams heavier than the 200 "standard" head weight? This makes sense as the heavier weight might flex the shaft more. Then just adjust the overall length for swingweight?




    Never use length to get SW right, treat them as 2 separate parameters, where length is most important, then adjust SW if needed.
  • GolfrnutGolfrnut Members Posts: 7,100 ✭✭
    This is the ONLY one I have never liked.



    - Against the heel side - Shaft is too long



    And that is only because of personal eperiences. I have a swing flaw that favors the heel side, and no matter how long of a shaft you give me, if I am not swinging 100%, I will favor the heel side. Obviously that is independent of a fitting, but it is something to be aware of.



    Nice post Howard. If I can make a suggestion, maybe dig up the post where you described the visual effects of shaft weight/club heft. I know you wrote a really good one up a while back but I don't remember where it was. Maybe combine that one into this thread?
    TM Supertri V2 w/ AD DI (Testing a new one that's on probation)
    Callaway 3Deep w/ 73 BB or Stage 2 3W w/ 73 BB
    Stage 2 3H w/ i80 Steelfiber
    Callaway Apex UT 21* w/ i80 Steelfiber
    Callaway X Prototype MBs 4-PW w/ Steelfiber AMI 99s
    Callaway MD3 52* & 58* PM grind (both X100 8 iron SS)
    Odyssey MXM 1W
  • Howard JonesHoward Jones Members Posts: 8,467 ✭✭
    edited Oct 7, 2018 #8
    Oh yes a swing fault might give all sort of problems, but if you cant improve by following the above tips, then there is something wrong with your swing...



    Ive been writing about my own fitting concept who i call Visual Fitting.

    - Its like with the DIY tune up, no need for high tech equipment, just a trained eye.

    Here is a cut/paste from another post with that:



    SHAFT FITTING

    We cant always pick a shaft with "lower" or "higher" launch and always get there, because the shaft is the players "dancing partner" and its how this "Couple" respond to each other that makes the "chemistry" between them. I like to say that the shaft influence more on the player than the player influence on the shaft, so if the shaft for some reason make the player to compensate in a way thats not beneficial for his play, a high launch might bring ball flight down, while a low launch might bring flight up.



    We always have to start by "going by the book", but DONT expect ´"the book" to be right in every case, because its sometimes the o posit result of what we should expect from the label of that shaft. Testing and some trial and error is always needed to dial in whats right for each player, and over time, every club fitter has seen this and had his doubt about why it can go down this way when its in conflict with the labels and the book.



    I also found that we can LOOK on the player while he is swinging the club, and actually SEE if the shaft is right for him, long before we got a single number from the launch monitor. All players got his own swing, but its not that hard to SEE whats wrong or his need for changes, just by looking on him while he swing the club, and i would like to tell you all what i look for and what i judge by that.



    VISUAL FITTING



    WEIGHT - Tempo

    - Try to evaluate if the players Tempo is under control

    His tempo shall be as close to the same for each and every swing, and we can see if his rhythm is good or not (balance and float). A Strong player with a shaft to light, will slow down and become insecure, so its no float in his rhythm - try more shaft weight. A shaft to heavy for the player, and you will see that he is struggling in transition, so he "jump start" the club by his back and hips (hips moves to much target line instead of rotating) - NO GOOD



    WEIGHT - Limitation

    To judge if total wgt is too high for the player (after visual inspection of transition and how he starts his down swing), we should use a "one hand backhand tennis stroke".



    Let the player swing the club with his left arm only, (right hand players, the right can assist to the top, but only the left from the top and down). Now pay attention to his LEFT SHOULDER from about 8 o clock or just before we are down at the bottom of the swing. If total wgt is higher that then players body can handle, we will see that his left shoulder makes a "drop" like its not able to hold the club back anymore, and thats actually what happens.

    In play, he will need to support the club with his right hand by higher grip pressure to prevent a fat shot, and by that his club speed drops.



    Go down on shaft wgt when you see this, a few grams is sometimes all it takes, so go UP until you see he is using his back and hips to jump start the club, back down some, and try the one hand swing when the 2 hand swing seems good to make sure you have lowered total wgt. enough.



    SHAFT FLEX AND PROFILE

    Transition to Down swing - Butt / Mid flex strength

    - Look at the players "aggressiveness" or the lack of it. (pay attention to his eyes, and tempo)

    Like with Tempo, float and control is what you wants to see, so here is what happen if flex dont fit

    - If the butt to mid part of the shaft is to weak, the player will just like a shaft who is too light, slow down because the feedback he gets does him insecure, like he dont "trust" that the shaft can handle his natural way of loading it. its feel wrong for him simply. Go stiffer

    - If the butt to mid is too stiff, it will trigger him to "overplay", just like a shaft who is to heavy, so he is using to much power from the top in his attempt to load this pole, but you will SEE that he is using to much energy, and that he is loosing control for that reason.



    TIP of the shaft - Profile and TQ

    - This part is what by the book shall give a difference in launch from high if its soft, or low if it stiff, but thats not always right. Feedback from IMPACT is what goes into his deeper mental levels, so if it too stiff, he will start to overload from the top to make it feel right. (Look on his face and eyes, you can SEE he is aggressive,).



    We can actually SEE all this with our own eyes, so pay attention to his power use, his rhythm and float, and if it looks like electrical "sparks" coming out in several stages of his swing, we know that he is "leaking power" he want be able to transfer to the ball.



    - DONT underestimate a player physical strength or need for weight before you have tried some option to find out what THIS player should play. Ive seen many players, who by visual inspection swinging their own clubs LOOKs weak, because they have a slow tempo, hardly no aggressiveness and not that impressive club speed, but DONT start by going LIGHTER to speed him up, go HEAVY.



    Often this players has the same syndrome as a stronger player who get a shaft to light or weak, so the reason why his tempo is slow, his aggressiveness not present, and club speed in the lower end, might be the need for more weight or MOI/resistance, so he cant find out how he can transfer his power to this club. His dancing partner has made him slow and weak, but that does not mean that he is.




    By using this "Visual fitting" steps, we can use the shaft to "trigger" a player into the right path for him. and when we found whats right, you will SEE that its working, and if you ask the player how it feels, he will tell you that it feels right for him. and he will have the very best odds of making pure contact with the ball.



    The Danish LPGA Pro Daisy Nielsen is fitted by Fooore Golf Lab this way. (complete bag)

    https://www.womensgo.../daisy-nielsen/



    If we do it this way, we have to forget that one shaft is Low launch and one shaft is High, because we used that differences to alter HIS FEEL, to trigger his swing into whats right, but not to make a difference to ball flight. Tweak ball flight by tweaking loft, and/or another ball, DONT leave IT ALL to the shaft, it want be able to do it all for you, and feel right on top of it. If you find a shaft that can do all this, included flight you been lucky, so dont ask to much from the shaft alone, but let the shaft take care of what it really can do for you, and flight is not the most important since that can be done much easier by loft.



    I dont know, but i like to think thats why Tiger has a set up like he does. He plays X100 to get weight and feel right, but then he tweaked loft 2 up, to get flight WAY HIGHER than any High launch shaft could have brought him, since dispersion might suffer bad, if we try to tweak flight by the shafts tip alone.



    This is my way of doing this, and i always get to target this way, but i dont know how other club fitters does their job in this matters.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • Howard JonesHoward Jones Members Posts: 8,467 ✭✭
    edited Apr 18, 2017 #9
    Here is a DIY for Putter balance



    Counterweight

    - Take a stack of coins or spacer shims and a tee, put the spacers or coins on the tee, and use tape to fix it to the grip end of the shaft - Test any thing from 30 to 100 grams. Here is how to find out how much weight needed. if the coins has a hole in the middle, you might put them on a tee you push down the went hole at the end of the grip



    Take a letter sheet, and align the longest side against your target

    - Address the ball on the side close to you, on target line side of the letter sheet.

    Now your putter will be half on, half off the sheet at address.

    - When you start your take away, pay attention to how the head "moves" out from address:



    A Blade putter shall move in a slight arc, going off the paper on your side

    A Mallet putter shall move in a almost strait line, following the edge of the letter sheet.



    Here is how its should look when Balance is correct

    On both types of putter, if the head starts by moving IN over the paper, ADD weight grip side.

    Test and add weight until its to much, and go down again, to tweak it right.

    The need for the letter sheet, is to boost contrast so even small wobbels is visible for your eye.



    Here is how it would look like, when you need more weight Grip side

    A helper or a video cam is very helpful here. Watch WRISTS and if they are "fixed" or "break " during the stroke.

    If the player cant keep his wrist fixed, add more weight grip side until he gets control of them.



    How to change grip side weight

    It does not matter if you at the end, use a grip with that extra weight, or if you add it by using lead tape below the grip

    Lead tape gives about 25 grams on 1 layer in spiral pattern, filling the same as 1 layer of build up, so if the need is 100 grams, add 4 layers of lead tape as if it was 4 layers of build up.



    You can also use a insert weight, and even make that insert weight yourself, by using a machine bolt, and tape. Just build it up until it fits the inside of the shaft. Last layer, use grip tape and solvent, so it sticks to the inside of the shaft



    PUTTER LIE ANGLE

    For this task you need a helper who shall stand in front of you as if he was the target (3-4 YARDS)

    When the player takes his stance and address the ball, the helper shall LOOK on the putter head.



    Most, but far from all putters have a FLAT top line, and for the helper its VERY VISIBLE if lie angle is not right for the player. The putter heads top line will tell if lie angle shall be adjusted upright or more flat.



    This is the way i do this, i never use any of the tools ive got for this task, because they cant compete with the accuracy you get from a visual judgement like above. Ive got 3 different Mitchell static fitting tools for putters, but they want get you closer than 1* degree of whats right, butt 1 off is NO GOOD, so just save your time and money and do it without



    Good luck !
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • Ri_RedneckRi_Redneck Leather for Life!! Members Posts: 5,433 ✭✭
    edited Sep 18, 2013 #10


    Oh yes a swing fault might give all sort of problems, but if you cant improve by following the above tips, then tere is something wrong with your swing...



    Ive been writing about my own fitting concept who i call Visual Fitting.

    - Its like with the DIY tune up, no need for high tech equipment, just a trained eye.

    Here is a cut/paste from another post with that:



    SHAFT FITTING

    We cant always pick a shaft with "lower" or "higher" launch and always get there, because the shaft is the players "dancing partner" and its how this "Couple" respond to each other that makes then "chemistry" between them. I like to say the the shaft influence more on the player than the player influence on the shaft, so if the shaft for some reason make the player to compensate in a way thats not beneficial for his play, a high launch might bring ball flight down, while a low launch might bring flight up.



    We always have to start by "going by the book", but DONT expect ´"the book" to be right in every case, because its sometimes the o posit result of what we should expect from the label of that shaft. Testing and some trial and error is always needed to dial in whats right for each player, and over time, every club fitter has seen this and had his doubt about why it can go down this way when its in conflict with the labels and the book.



    I also found that we can LOOK on the player while he is swinging the club, and actually SEE if the shaft is right for him, long before we got a single number from the launch monitor. All players got his own swing, but its not that hard to SEE whats wrong or his need for changes, just by looking on him while he swing the club, and i would like to tell you all what i look for and what i judge by that.



    VISUAL FITTING



    Weight - Tempo

    - Try to evaluate if the players Tempo is under control

    His tempo shall be as close to the same for each and every swing, and we can see if his rhythm is good or not (balance and float)

    A Strong player with a shaft to light, will slow down and become insecure, so its no float in his rhythm -try more shaft weight

    A shaft to heavy for the player, and you will see that he is struggling in transition, so he "jump start" the club by his back and hips - NO GOOD



    Transition to Down swing - Butt / Mid flex strength

    - Look at the players "aggressiveness" or the lack of it.

    Like with Tempo, float and control is what you wants to see, so here is what happen if flex dont fit

    - If the butt to mid part of the shaft is to weak, the player will just like a shaft who is too light, slow down because the feedback he gets does him insecure, like he dont "trust" that the shaft can handle his natural way of loading it. its feel wrong for him simply. Go stiffer

    - If the butt to mid is too stiff, it will trigger him to "overplay", just like a shaft who is to heavy, so he is using to much power from the top in his attempt to load this pole, but you will SEE that he is using to much energy, and that he is loosing control for that reason.



    TIP of the shaft

    - This part is what by the book shall give a difference in launch from high if its soft, or low if it stiff, but thats not always right. Feedback from IMPACT is what goes into his deeper mental levels, so if it too stiff, he will start to overload from the top to make it feel right. (Look on his face, you can SEE he is aggressive)



    We can actually SEE all this with our own eyes, so pay attention to his power use, his rythm and float, and if it looks like electrical "sparks" coming out in several stages of his swing, we know that he is "leaking power" he want be able to transfer to the ball.



    - DONT underestimate a player physical strength or need for weight before you have tried some option to find out what THIS player should play.

    Ive seen many players, who by visual inspection swinging their own clubs LOOKs weak, because they have a slow tempo, hardly no aggressiveness and not that impressive club speed, but DONT start by going LIGHTER to speed him up, go HEAVY. Often this players has the same syndrome as a stronger player who get a shaft to light or weak, so the reason why his tempo is slow, his aggressiveness not present, and club speed in the lower end, might be the need for more weight or MOI/resistance, so he cant find out how he can transfer his power to this club. His dancing partner has made him slow and weak, but that does not mean that he is.



    By using this "Visual fitting" steps, we can use the shaft to "trigger" a player into the right path for him. and when we found whats right, you will SEE that its working, and if you ask the player how it feels, he will tell you that it feels right for him. and he will have the very best odds of making pure contact with the ball.



    If we do it this way, we have to forget that one shaft is Low launch and one shaft is High, because we used that differences to alter HIS FEEL, to trigger his swing into whats right, but not to make a difference to ball flight. Tweak ball flight by tweaking loft, and/or another ball, DONT leave IT ALL to the shaft, it want be able to do it all for you, and feel right on top of it. If you find a shaft that can do all this, included flight you been lucky, so dont ask to much from the shaft alone, but let the shaft take care of what it really can do for you, and flight is not the most important since that can be done much easier by loft.



    I dont know, but i like to think thats why Tiger has a set up like he does. He plays X100 to get weight and feel right, but then he tweaked loft 2 up, to get flight WAY HIGHER than any High launch shaft could have brought him, since dispersion might suffer bad, if we try to tweak flight by the shafts tip alone.



    This is my way of doing this, and i always get to target this way, but i dont know how other club fitters does their job in this matters.





    MAN!!! Does THIS bring back memories of old time fitting! Still work great though. Great job Howard!



    BT
    Bag 1
    F7 9.5* - Aldila Copperhead 70TX @ 44.5
    King LTD Blk 14.5* - Aldila RIP Beta 80 S @ 43
    King LTD Blk 19* - Aldila RIP Beta 80 S @ 41.5
    Mizuno MP15 4-pw - Aldila RIP Tour 115 R
    Mizuno MP-T5 Black 52, 56 & 60 - TT Wedge

    Bag 2
    Mizuno ST180 9.5* - Diamana Kai'Li 70 X
    Mizuno GPX850 14.5* - Motore Speeder TS 7.3 S
    Mizuno GPX850 20* - Motore Speeder TS 8.3
    Mizuno MP25 4-pw - Recoil Proto 125 F4
    Mizuno MP-T5 Satin 52, 56, & 60 TT Wedge
  • Howard JonesHoward Jones Members Posts: 8,467 ✭✭
    @Ri Redneck



    Please fill inn, i know nothing about how they did a fitting in earlier times, so this is strictly based on what i observe when i do a fitting, so its not like im not using any equipment, i do, and i use Trackman with real gamer balls, and i even do Lie angles using Trackman, But no other "tool" than me can SEE whats happening with the player, and when it looks right, Trackman always conform it is right, so does the player. If it dont looks right, you get the same message from Trackman. Thats what i learned from this, but remember that im spending 3-4 ours doing 1 fitting. (irons, or driver, not both, thats 8 ours), so we got the time to test all parameters needed to get it all as good as it can be done.



    So when we test to find shaft weight, i just use a shaft i think is a god starting point, and if the weight and feel is within the players preference area, we can do both Total weight and SW balance, using that shaft, by adding weight to the shaft at 14" down from butt for testing a higher shaft weight, or add weight to the head to test a higher SW value.



    When we found both this, i know what weight range i shall pick a shaft from, and now its time for flex and profile, using feed back from the starting club the player used. From what we saw while he was swinging that test club, and his own feedback, we know where to look in flex and profile now. Do we want to speed him up by going stronger, or slow him down by going softer?



    In a shop like mine, where there is more than 1000 combination of Heads / Shafts available for driver fitting alone, we have to find a short cut to reduce the number of possible combos. A well trained player only have about 80 good strokes on his "batteries", a day, before he starts to make errors he normally dont run into during a round, so a 3-4 hour session is all a player can take, and thats why we "save" as many strokes as possible, trying to get the most out of each and every one of them.



    Like my friend Jaskanski sais, Golf is what you put into it, so is it with fitting of your gear. If you follow what i wrote above here, you will be better off than most regular Golf shops can help you with, even if they use a Launch monitor to assist,

    The reason is they skipped the 3 most important factors of them all, who is #1 Length - #2 Total weight - #3 Club balance.
  • rara053rara053 Members Posts: 168
    Thanks Howard Jones! This was a very good read, it was super cool, interesting and helpful. You've given me new knowledge and many things to consider. Appreciate you taking time to post and wish I had access to a fitter like you
    913D3 9.5A1 D+7x
    913Fd 15.0A1 D+8x
    Super 9031 20.0 Speeder90HBx
    MP64 3-P KBS Tour X
    MPT4 52/58 KBS Tour X
    SC Monterey IOMIC Midsize
  • jamesWRXjamesWRX Members Posts: 60
    Wonderful post! Thanks Howard.
  • Howard JonesHoward Jones Members Posts: 8,467 ✭✭
    edited Oct 14, 2013 #14
    Here is an update with a few charts for you.



    The first is a chart for un-cut shaft weight of all your clubs.

    - This is MY suggestion for shaft weight progression, as we change shaft lenght.

    If you have a favorite club that just feels right, find the un cut shaft weight of that club, and locate it in the green fields in the bottom of the chart. In some cases you will find your favorit clubs shaft weight in 3 rows. The middle would be my suggestion for the rest of your bag, based on your favorite club. The row to the left is 5 grams down, the row to the right is 5 grams up.



    The chart is based on players ive been doing more than 1 club for, and i found a pattern behind it, who can be explained. In a set of irons with constant weight shafts, both shafts and grips is equal in weight, the only difference is the head. The clubs total weight changes by the same as head weight changes, and thats 7 grams pr. iron.



    In Drivers and woods we can use 10 grams pr. club like this

    - Driver = 198

    - 3W = 208

    - 4W = 213

    - 5W = 218

    - 7W = 228



    In woods we go 10 grams pr inch, or compared to irons, only 5 gram pr 0.5 inch, and then we will need some extra weight. If we use 5 grams plus on Shaft Weight pr inch shorter club, the total weight difference would be about 7.5 grams pr 0.5 inch in woods, compared to 7 grams in irons. Then we ends up with a "heft" in all your clubs who makes them more equal than many players got.



    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • GeohansGeohans Members Posts: 2,157
    edited Oct 10, 2013 #15
    Great stuff, thanks.



    There seem to be two measurements for wrist to floor-- Fra and Til. How do we use these two numbers?





    BTW the two numbers correspond roughly to 34 inches and 36 inches under standard wrist to floor.



    Does the difference have to do with bare feet, or. . . .?
  • TMBobTMBob Members Posts: 5,373 ✭✭
    Would love to see a You tube video or some pics added to both club and putter fittings. thanks
  • Howard JonesHoward Jones Members Posts: 8,467 ✭✭
    Geohans wrote:


    Great stuff, thanks.



    There seem to be two measurements for wrist to floor-- Fra and Til. How do we use these two numbers?





    BTW the two numbers correspond roughly to 34 inches and 36 inches under standard wrist to floor.



    Does the difference have to do with bare feet, or. . . .?




    Fra = From

    Til = To



    Correct - "Standard" #5 iron at 38.00" is for a player with a WTF from 34" to 36" inch or "Fra 86.5 cm Til 91.5 cm"

    - Golf shoes ON, standing strait up and down, your arms relaxed. Measure from wrist on LEFT hand for right hand players.

    DONT try it alone, you need a helper who can make sure you are standing with your shoulders in level. Let your helper measure.



    @TMBob - Sorry i dont have any videos to offer on this, but feel free to ask any question if there is something you dont understand.
  • jamesWRXjamesWRX Members Posts: 60
    I'm looking at the above chart that Howard posted, "New Chart with Imperial WTF added".



    Assume one has "WTF To Inch" = 36".

    Looking up the chart - there're three columns that has 36": Min0.25, Standard and Plus1/8.



    I'm not quite sure what other factor(s) that will help me to select the actual column to set the club length (Min, Standard or Plus)?

    - for example, with #5 iron, I'm not sure to select its length at 37 6/8 (Min0.25), 38 (Standard) or 38 1/8.
  • friggingruvenfriggingruven Goldmember Members Posts: 121
    Terrific posts. Thanks Howard
    910 D3 9.5°
    910F 15°
    910H 17°
    tm tp mb 4 - PW S400
    52° mp-t4, 54° vokey, 60° vokey
    odyssey black series #9
  • Howard JonesHoward Jones Members Posts: 8,467 ✭✭
    jamesWRX wrote:


    I'm looking at the above chart that Howard posted, "New Chart with Imperial WTF added".



    Assume one has "WTF To Inch" = 36".

    Looking up the chart - there're three columns that has 36": Min0.25, Standard and Plus1/8.



    I'm not quite sure what other factor(s) that will help me to select the actual column to set the club length (Min, Standard or Plus)?

    - for example, with #5 iron, I'm not sure to select its length at 37 6/8 (Min0.25), 38 (Standard) or 38 1/8.




    This is STATIC fitting only, a fast starting point for testing, and if the players WTF is 36", shortest starting point for testing would be minus 2/8 and longest plus 2/8. Since "standard" in this chart is 34" to 36" and this player is at the max, the natural mid value would be Plus 1/8
  • 6hcphacker6hcphacker Posts: 159 ✭✭


    Here is a DIY for Putter balance



    Counterweight

    - Take a "stack of coins" and use tape to fix it to the grip end of the shaft - Test any thing from 30 to 100 grams

    Here is how to find out how much weight needed.



    Take a letter sheet, and align the longest side against your target

    - Address the ball on the side close to you, on target line side of the letter sheet.

    Now your putter will be half on, half off the sheet at address.

    - When you start your take away, pay attention to how the head "moves" out from address:



    A Blade putter shall move in a slight arc, going off the paper on your side

    A Mallet putter shall move in a almost strait line, following the edge of the letter sheet.



    On both types of putter, if the head starts by moving IN over the paper, ADD weight grip side.

    Test and add weight until its to much, and go down again, to tweak it right.

    The need for the letter sheet, is to boost contrast so even small wobbels is visible for your eye.



    It does not matter if you at the end, use a grip with that extra weight, or if you add it by using lead tape below the grip

    Lead tape gives about 25 grams on 1 layer in spiral pattern, filling the same as 1 layer of build up, so if the need is 100 grams, add 4 layers of lead tape as if it was 4 layers of build up.



    You can also use a insert weight, and even make that insert weight yourself, by using a machine bolt, and tape. Just build it up until it fits the inside of the shaft. Last layer, use grip tape and solvent, so it sticks to the inside of the shaft



    Good luck !




    How far below the grip should one add lead tape? One post I read said 14 inches? That is more than 1/2 down the shaft from the top of grip? Sorry if this has been asked before, I looked but could find it with nah certainty.



    Fantastic post btw, a must read for anyone looking to tweak and/or get fitted.
  • Stuart_GStuart_G New HampshireMembers Posts: 22,876 ✭✭
    edited Oct 21, 2013 #22
    6hcphacker wrote:



    Here is a DIY for Putter balance



    Counterweight

    - Take a "stack of coins" and use tape to fix it to the grip end of the shaft - Test any thing from 30 to 100 grams

    Here is how to find out how much weight needed.



    Take a letter sheet, and align the longest side against your target

    - Address the ball on the side close to you, on target line side of the letter sheet.

    Now your putter will be half on, half off the sheet at address.

    - When you start your take away, pay attention to how the head "moves" out from address:



    A Blade putter shall move in a slight arc, going off the paper on your side

    A Mallet putter shall move in a almost strait line, following the edge of the letter sheet.



    On both types of putter, if the head starts by moving IN over the paper, ADD weight grip side.

    Test and add weight until its to much, and go down again, to tweak it right.

    The need for the letter sheet, is to boost contrast so even small wobbels is visible for your eye.



    It does not matter if you at the end, use a grip with that extra weight, or if you add it by using lead tape below the grip

    Lead tape gives about 25 grams on 1 layer in spiral pattern, filling the same as 1 layer of build up, so if the need is 100 grams, add 4 layers of lead tape as if it was 4 layers of build up.




    You can also use a insert weight, and even make that insert weight yourself, by using a machine bolt, and tape. Just build it up until it fits the inside of the shaft. Last layer, use grip tape and solvent, so it sticks to the inside of the shaft



    Good luck !




    How far below the grip should one add lead tape? One post I read said 14 inches? That is more than 1/2 down the shaft from the top of grip? Sorry if this has been asked before, I looked but could find it with nah certainty.



    Fantastic post btw, a must read for anyone looking to tweak and/or get fitted.




    I believe in that particular context, he's talking about using the lead tape underneath the grip (same place as the grip tape). This results in the counterbalancing described.



    The addition of lead tape to the shaft 14" from the butt is done in fitting for a slightly different purpose - to increase static weight without increasing swing weight. That technique can help determine if a heaver shaft weight would suite a player.
  • Thread deserves a sticky. Very useful info.
  • Howard JonesHoward Jones Members Posts: 8,467 ✭✭
    edited Nov 14, 2014 #24


    Here is a DIY for Putter balance



    Counterweight

    - Take a "stack of coins" and use tape to fix it to the grip end of the shaft - Test any thing from 30 to 100 grams

    Here is how to find out how much weight needed.



    Take a letter sheet, and align the longest side against your target

    - Address the ball on the side close to you, on target line side of the letter sheet.

    Now your putter will be half on, half off the sheet at address.

    - When you start your take away, pay attention to how the head "moves" out from address:



    A Blade putter shall move in a slight arc, going off the paper on your side

    A Mallet putter shall move in a almost strait line, following the edge of the letter sheet.



    On both types of putter, if the head starts by moving IN over the paper, ADD weight grip side.

    Test and add weight until its to much, and go down again, to tweak it right.

    The need for the letter sheet, is to boost contrast so even small wobbels is visible for your eye.



    It does not matter if you at the end, use a grip with that extra weight, or if you add it by using lead tape below the grip

    Lead tape gives about 25 grams on 1 layer in spiral pattern, filling the same as 1 layer of build up, so if the need is 100 grams, add 4 layers of lead tape as if it was 4 layers of build up.



    You can also use a insert weight, and even make that insert weight yourself, by using a machine bolt, and tape. Just build it up until it fits the inside of the shaft. Last layer, use grip tape and solvent, so it sticks to the inside of the shaft



    Good luck !




    Ive been trying to explain "Putter balance" and counter weighting,and when the Balance is right for the player, he will feel that the putter is "floating" on its own lie angle, with no effort to keep it there. The resistance from head weight will now only be present as feel of weight when you move it back and forward. The head will stay on its path and lie angle with no left/right wobbling.

    Its hard to explain this any better using words alone, but take a look at this movie, and you will understand what i mean by perfect balance, and effortless moving. As a metaphor, this is what we seek by finding the right balance.







    The next that happens when balance is right, is that your hands will be syn crone with the putter head.

    Typical will most players benefit from more weight in their hands, who will add resistance, so your hands cant force a forward shaft lean before the head is willing to follow along with the grip side. Get a "helper" to LOOK on your hands, and if they start to move a bit before the head, making this forward shaft lean when your start the forward movement of the stroke, add weight grip side.



    So, Putter balance and Counterweight is both to get that "floating feel" where the putter floats on its own lie angle, but also to adjust resistance to your hands, if its needed to slow down the grip side, so the head is moving along with it.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • Ri_RedneckRi_Redneck Leather for Life!! Members Posts: 5,433 ✭✭


    @Ri Redneck



    Please fill inn, i know nothing about how they did a fitting in earlier times, so this is strictly based on what i observe when i do a fitting, so its not like im not using any equipment, i do, and i use Trackman with real gamer balls, and i even do Lie angles using Trackman, But no other "tool" than me can SEE whats happening with the player, and when it looks right, Trackman always conform it is right, so does the player. If it dont looks right, you get the same message from Trackman. Thats what i learned from this, but remember that im spending 3-4 ours doing 1 fitting. (irons, or driver, not both, thats 8 ours), so we got the time to test all parameters needed to get it all as good as it can be done.



    So when we test to find shaft weight, i just use a shaft i think is a god starting point, and if the weight and feel is within the players preference area, we can do both Total weight and SW balance, using that shaft, by adding weight to the shaft at 14" down from butt for testing a higher shaft weight, or add weight to the head to test a higher SW value.



    When we found both this, i know what weight range i shall pick a shaft from, and now its time for flex and profile, using feed back from the starting club the player used. From what we saw while he was swinging that test club, and his own feedback, we know where to look in flex and profile now. Do we want to speed him up by going stronger, or slow him down by going softer?



    In a shop like mine, where there is more than 1000 combination of Heads / Shafts available for driver fitting alone, we have to find a short cut to reduce the number of possible combos. A well trained player only have about 80 good strokes on his "batteries", a day, before he starts to make errors he normally dont run into during a round, so a 3-4 hour session is all a player can take, and thats why we "save" as many strokes as possible, trying to get the most out of each and every one of them.



    Like my friend Jaskanski sais, Golf is what you put into it, so is it with fitting of your gear. If you follow what i wrote above here, you will be better off than most regular Golf shops can help you with, even if they use a Launch monitor to assist,

    The reason is they skipped the 3 most important factors of them all, who is #1 Length - #2 Total weight - #3 Club balance.




    Sorry I didn't get back to you earlier. I've been traveling too much.



    I used to do fittings back in the 80's when we really had nothing to get SS or BS numbers. You just watched their tempo / transition and the distance they got with given specs. I even used a stop watch at times to see if they were consistent or needed some lessons along with the fitting. A Trackman would have been awsome to have back then. Of course, there were not nearly as many options for shafts and clubheads then either. A simple weight port on a driver was a rare thing. I used Lie Boards for Dynamic lie fitting and still believe it's hard to beat. A simple SW scale was used to get an idea of where to start with the weighting, but the feel feedback from the golfer was the tell-all. I don't know how many times I had some guy say he needed a D4 SW and wouldn't take anything else and then have him gripe about the weight, only to find that he DIDN'T need a D4!



    Even with all the technology we have these days, I still like personal feedback the most. I was just glad to see that it meant as much to you.



    BT
    Bag 1
    F7 9.5* - Aldila Copperhead 70TX @ 44.5
    King LTD Blk 14.5* - Aldila RIP Beta 80 S @ 43
    King LTD Blk 19* - Aldila RIP Beta 80 S @ 41.5
    Mizuno MP15 4-pw - Aldila RIP Tour 115 R
    Mizuno MP-T5 Black 52, 56 & 60 - TT Wedge

    Bag 2
    Mizuno ST180 9.5* - Diamana Kai'Li 70 X
    Mizuno GPX850 14.5* - Motore Speeder TS 7.3 S
    Mizuno GPX850 20* - Motore Speeder TS 8.3
    Mizuno MP25 4-pw - Recoil Proto 125 F4
    Mizuno MP-T5 Satin 52, 56, & 60 TT Wedge
  • Ri_RedneckRi_Redneck Leather for Life!! Members Posts: 5,433 ✭✭
    edited Dec 5, 2013 #26



    Here is a DIY for Putter balance



    Counterweight

    - Take a "stack of coins" and use tape to fix it to the grip end of the shaft - Test any thing from 30 to 100 grams

    Here is how to find out how much weight needed.



    Take a letter sheet, and align the longest side against your target

    - Address the ball on the side close to you, on target line side of the letter sheet.

    Now your putter will be half on, half off the sheet at address.

    - When you start your take away, pay attention to how the head "moves" out from address:



    A Blade putter shall move in a slight arc, going off the paper on your side

    A Mallet putter shall move in a almost strait line, following the edge of the letter sheet.



    On both types of putter, if the head starts by moving IN over the paper, ADD weight grip side.

    Test and add weight until its to much, and go down again, to tweak it right.

    The need for the letter sheet, is to boost contrast so even small wobbels is visible for your eye.



    It does not matter if you at the end, use a grip with that extra weight, or if you add it by using lead tape below the grip

    Lead tape gives about 25 grams on 1 layer in spiral pattern, filling the same as 1 layer of build up, so if the need is 100 grams, add 4 layers of lead tape as if it was 4 layers of build up.



    You can also use a insert weight, and even make that insert weight yourself, by using a machine bolt, and tape. Just build it up until it fits the inside of the shaft. Last layer, use grip tape and solvent, so it sticks to the inside of the shaft



    Good luck !




    Ive been trying to explain "Putter balance" and counter weighting,and when the Balance is right for the player, he will feel that the putter is "floating" on its own lie angle, with no effort to keep it there. The resistance from head weight will now only be present as feel of weight when you move it back and forward. The head will stay on its path and lie angle with no left/right wobbling.

    Its hard to explain this any better using words alone, but take a look at this movie, and you will understand what i mean by perfect balance, and effortless moving. As a metaphor, this is what we seek by finding the right balance.



    http://vk.com/video-...28e3af567aa99df



    The next that happens when balance is right, is that your hands will be syn crone with the putter head.

    Typical will most players benefit from more weight in their hands, who will add resistance, so your hands cant force a forward shaft lean before the head is willing to follow along with the grip side. Get a "helper" to LOOK on your hands, and if they start to move a bit before the head, making this forward shaft lean when your start the forward movement of the stroke, add weight grip side.



    So, Putter balance and Counterweight is both to get that "floating feel" where the putter floats on its own lie angle, but also to adjust resistance to your hands, if its needed to slow down the grip side, so the head is moving along with it.




    That's an amazing video. I was hoping the feather would come off at the end to show the intensity of the entire balance!



    I believe many are missing out from not having a properly fit putter to their stroke and body design. I decided to design/build my own putter back in '99 (one of my players is in my avatar). The head is fine sanded to a specific weight so that it balanced perfectly with the shaft and grip I planned to use. I had 5, but chose a poor wood (Gabon Ebony) for one and it had a chronic cracking problem and it had to be retired.



    One overlooked specification that I stumbled on during my endeavours was grip alignment. I had always installed putter grips square to the clubface in the past, but I found I was never really comfortable over the ball. I felt I had to PUT myself into a position to make a proper stroke. What I WANTED was to be able to BE in the proper position when I took my stance over the ball and not have to conform to the putter after the fact. I discovered that when I took my putting stance, my left hand was not actually square to the target line. Since the grip WAS square, the putter just didn't feel right. To solve this, I constructed an alignment setup out of boards that allowed me to place my feet in the proper position AND the putter face square to the target. then I installed my preferred grip with tape and solvent which gave me time to tweak the grip till it was perfect for me. In the end, I found that installing my putter grip 10* open allows my hands to rest in a natural position and the putter face literally squares itself! Suddenly, I had removed one of the variables of putting that had plagued me for years.



    Sadly, I still have to read the greens, so I am not yet a "lights-out" putter. But my confidence that I am setup properly helps a ton!



    BT
    Bag 1
    F7 9.5* - Aldila Copperhead 70TX @ 44.5
    King LTD Blk 14.5* - Aldila RIP Beta 80 S @ 43
    King LTD Blk 19* - Aldila RIP Beta 80 S @ 41.5
    Mizuno MP15 4-pw - Aldila RIP Tour 115 R
    Mizuno MP-T5 Black 52, 56 & 60 - TT Wedge

    Bag 2
    Mizuno ST180 9.5* - Diamana Kai'Li 70 X
    Mizuno GPX850 14.5* - Motore Speeder TS 7.3 S
    Mizuno GPX850 20* - Motore Speeder TS 8.3
    Mizuno MP25 4-pw - Recoil Proto 125 F4
    Mizuno MP-T5 Satin 52, 56, & 60 TT Wedge
  • WoodersonWooderson Posts: 1,970 ✭✭
    Pure gold Howard. In your post you didn't address face angle. Any special tricks to fit this, or do you just watch ball flight? Thanks.
    Let me tell you what Wooderson is packin'
    Ping G400 Max 9° Tour 65 Stiff

    Callaway Epic Flash 15°
    Callaway Epic Heavenwood
    Ping G410 22°
    Titleist 818 H1 25°
    TM p790 6-PW Modus 105 Stiff
    Ping Glide 2.0 Stealth GW/SW
    Ping Eye2 LW
    Odyssey Marxman
  • Howard JonesHoward Jones Members Posts: 8,467 ✭✭
    Wooderson wrote:


    Pure gold Howard. In your post you didn't address face angle. Any special tricks to fit this, or do you just watch ball flight? Thanks.




    Face angle is not that simple, but yes, ball flight is what we got for help to judge it, if we aint got a Trackman for assistance.



    Start direction of ball flight will tell if its open or closed, but we dont see the first part of the flight our self if we keep our eyes on the ball until its gone, so like with putter and lie angle, a helper standing behind the tee is good help here.



  • WoodersonWooderson Posts: 1,970 ✭✭
    Do you find that face angle often needs to be the same for all woods of a players bag? Or do you find players tend to have different angles for their drivers and fairways? Thanks for your help.
    Let me tell you what Wooderson is packin'
    Ping G400 Max 9° Tour 65 Stiff

    Callaway Epic Flash 15°
    Callaway Epic Heavenwood
    Ping G410 22°
    Titleist 818 H1 25°
    TM p790 6-PW Modus 105 Stiff
    Ping Glide 2.0 Stealth GW/SW
    Ping Eye2 LW
    Odyssey Marxman
  • neovaneova Members Posts: 320
    excellent post! I just cut down my irons to play the 37.5" 5-iron standard and had been striking the ball very nicely for the past couple rounds, and with a WTF of 34" this chart is spot on (on the lower range) while my hybrids and woods are on the upper end!
    Bettinardi BEBG-1501 Staff Bag (Riding 14 Clubs)
    TRPX S-013 1W 9.5 | RomaRo Ray Type-R 5W+ 17 & UT 19 | United SBB1 Tour 3-PW & SBW2 53/57 | Bettinardi Queen Bee #6

    Honma CB-3202 Stand Bag (Walking 12 Clubs)
    Baldo 8C Craft Brassy 2W 13 | George Spirit GTFW 5W 18 | Honma TW-U 21 & TW717M 4-PW | Romaro Alcobaca Stream Tour 58 | Bettinardi BB35
  • bag302bag302 Posts: 635
    edited Jul 10, 2014 #31
    This is such a great post.



    I've actually found my length, weight and preferred driver SW, but I now reached a crossroad.



    I bought 3 Supertri drivers 8.5,9.5,10.5 and various shafts and a weight kit. After a couple of years experimenting. I settled on a 44.5" setup with a RIP alpha 70s at a D5 SW. Very confident with this club and hit the sweetspot more often than not in the smiley face. I'm getting a 1.51 smash factor on trackman and supremely accurate on the course.



    However, this combo is short for some reason - only going 220-230. I put in a RIP alpha 60r and immediately gained 20-30 yards. Same day. Same swing. GPS verified. Unfortunately, I lost all control.



    I hit my 4 iron 200-205, so having a driver only go 220-230 is unacceptable to me. Conversely, the lack of control is unacceptable to me as well.



    Not sure what to do at this point.
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