Shaft Pure-ing

I got fitted for new irons today at a boutique GD top 100 fitter. I was very impressed with the fitting and the results, but I am skeptical to purchase from them. The clubs are $30 more a club due to their club building process.

Instead of ordering a set assembled by Titleist, the place buys a stock set, rips the shafts out, adds the custom shafts, and then sells them. There big pitch is that ordering a set from Titleist with the C Tapers will yield clubs with different swing weights between clubs, varying shaft lengths, and the shafts won't be "pured".

Does anyone knowledgeable on the subject have an opinion? Are clubs built by Titleist that shotty? Does "puring" an a shaft make a huge difference?

Bump

- no one is familiar with shaft "pure-ing"?

- no one has a comment on the build quality from an OEM v a local shop?

Disclaimer: This is only my opinion based on personal experience, nothing else. I might get "booed", but I would save myself the $30 bucks a club and have them ordered from Titleist. If you specify to Titleist the swing weights you want they will get it right. As far as pured shafts go, there are many that say it makes a difference and many that say it does not....from my experience (lowish single digit HC), having pured shafts did not change the feel or performance of the clubs (had two sets with pured shafts and compared directly to same sets without pured shafts). Just my .02, good luck.

I doubt the length and swing weights would off. Sounds like they are just selling the Puring process. There are a lot of opinions regarding the benefits of shaft puring and even spine and flo. There is no direct answer as far as do it or don't, IMO. You can always have it done later if you think it makes that much of a difference.

I'll throw in my two cents here. Shaft pure-ing involves using a SST Pure machine which analyzes the each shaft to determine the optimal orientation for installing the shaft in the head. The theory is that this ensures consistent bending profiles between each club in your set. If you were to take shafts in to have them Pured, most shops in my area would charge $20-30 per shaft depending on if they are new/pulled shafts and if you bought the shafts from that shop or not. You'll probably get varying opinions on the benefit of Pure-ing. I tend to think it is more beneficial in graphite shafts than steel, but again just my opinion.

In terms of the build quality question, I guess it boils down to the quality of the local person building your clubs. Based on OEM assembled clubs that folks bring in to me, there is generally some degree of variation there in terms of swing weight, shaft length, etc. Now in most cases these variations are probably something that the average person would never notice, +/- half a swing weight point or +/- 1/8" on shaft length gaps is not something that most folks are going to notice. If you have a top notch builder available to you and you want to know that your clubs are built to your exacting specs, then going with your local shop would probably be the way to go. If you are OK with the potential for some small variation from the OEM, then save the money and order direct from Titleist. I'm curious if your local shop would do their normal build process, but not do the SST Pure process on the shafts and what the reduced cost would be. Also, in going with a local custom builder, you generally will have more options available in terms of cosmetic details such as custom ferrules, grip colors etc which give you a more personalized product. Again, that is up to the individual if that is something they value and are willing to pay for.

Save the money and order from any retail Titleist account.
You can spec out swingweights if needed during the order process.
In a blind test with any single digit player ( 5 or below ) the chances of them 'feeling"
a pured shaft vs stock shaft / or a d2 vs d3 iron swingweight is very slim at best.
Find me someone who can tell the difference and I would suggest the blind test.

My 2 cents here as well, on custom builds not necessarily Pureing, since the OP mentioned the builder total process.

If you go with the custom builder, they typically are selling the relationship and the quality of the built. They are not making components. They are going to ensure that what you get is exactly what you asked for, it is quality not quantity that makes their business model. So the builder ensures that they are Frequency matched across the set. Which really takes some time, and in most cases a parallel tip shaft and trial and error. They ensure the Swing weight, length, loft and lie specs are exactly what you asked for.

Then if it is not right for some reason, they will work with you to make it right. Even if it was you that was wrong. Since Golf is a mental game, if eliminating all those variable improves your confidence, it is worth the extra money for the build.

stumblinhorse hit it on the head when he said your confidence in your equipment is the ultimate goal. If you are 100% (or as close as possible) that your equipment is right then with all the confidence in that equipment you will play better.

Thanks guys. You sort of confirmed what I thought.

I won't get complete garbage from titleist and the puring / custom build comes down to how picky I am.

Would love to hear Mr. Wishon's comments regarding pure-ing.

I would support the people who fitted you.
Too many people complain that there are not enough competent fitters out there. They're not out there because people don't support them.
You've found a fitter who has provided you with a valuable service and yet you contemplate taking another route simply because it's cheaper?
Come on people, there is a time for cheap and there is a time for smart. Be smart and support your local fitter! Be cheap and watch them disappear!

IMHO...I have seen various data on Puring some of which says it reduces dispersion some which says its voodoo and all in the head. Just so you are 100% aware, the Puring facility pays a licensing fee to the owners of the Puring method which gives them the right to have the machine and advertise the process thus the $20-30 fee. I have some clubs that are Pured and some that aren't and when my swing is off the Pured clubs suck just as bad as the non-Pured ones. I don't own a Puring license Pur but my partner is a Henry-Griffits fitter and all their clubs are Pured at the factory and he thinks it is worth the cost.

In my experience Titleist (and Mizuno) is pretty good with getting custom clubs right but I have seen fitters that order stock shafts and then pull them and put in something else. I think this is a waste of time and money (yours). But there is an argument to be made for weighing and freq'ing individual shafts and putting together a set that is "custom". I have done this and will do it if a customer wants otherwise I typically order what my customer fits for and then go through the set and confirm lofts, swing weights, flexes (Freq.) and then I take the customer to the range and have him hit them and adjusting lie angles and lofts (if needed...sometimes...but rarely ) at the range.

Also agree with Stumblin and nbg that with a custom fitter you are paying for the relationship. My customers know that I will fix or adjust anything that goes wrong for as long as they own those clubs. I also give the first regrip for free after one year and will do free lie adjustments anytime.

Just my .02added in...so now you have .10 worth of advice

...enjoy your new sticks!!

Not sure if I was getting a deal, but last sets I had PURED were $15/club from a top 100 fitter. I think their volume determines the pricing they're able to offer. I play sets pured or not, but my personal bests have come with sets that HAVE been PURED. Coincidence or not, its in play.

That said, when ordering the specs I want from Titleist, I am as confident in them or moreso than any OEM in getting it right. If you are being told their custom capabilities are "junk," then I'll disagree there. You won't get pured shafts, but length, loft/lie and swingweight are almost always completely spot on with my Titleist clubs from the factory. Part of why I like their company so much in fact, along with the great designs.

One set with C-tapers SST Pured, and 3 without. I don't see any glaring differences for what its worth. Those shafts have a tight dispersion.

What is the difference with spine location and pureing? I was on a tour van and all the clubs that left the van all had the spine located toward the target. They also showed me that most graphite shafts have 2 spines. Now this was 5+ years ago so some things may have changed. Whenever I buy new clubs, from that Van experience, I always have my clubs rebuilt. It may be a placebo effect, I don't care, it works for me.

[quote name='orangeruffy' timestamp='1384286367' post='8138584'] I don't care, it works for me.
[/quote]

And I believe that's what it really comes down to. Do what you need to do to play your best (as long as you have to cash to justify).

I had a fitting earlier this year and ended up getting PXIs pured. One thing to note is that when pured the shaft logos/bands will be all over the place, so keep that in mind if you are getting shafts where he labels cannot be removed. I like to look down at something clean and straightforward for an iron, and pured PXIs with the logos every which way is anything but. It might not bother some, but I'm looking to reshaft because it annoys me so much. I couldn't tell you if it actually changes the performance at all.

I did get my woods and have them pured also. My driving has been much improved, but I would bet that has much more to do with the fitting than the Pureing. So basically I have no clue if it affects performance, but I regret doing the irons just because of the look they have now at address.

Buy the Titleist clubs from a reputable retailer, who'll require Titleist to send you clubs that match the spec you order.

As to "SST Puring & spine Alignment:

Here's my post from last year: http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/895422-spine-aligned-iron-shafts/page__p__7692832__hl__+sst#entry7692832


[color=#282828]There are 1000's of posts on GolfWRX about this subject, the search function is your friend. The bottom line is, there's probably little or no value to FLO and even less to "spining", given that today's shafts are light years ahead of the shafts that were available 10-20 years ago.[/color]

[color=#282828]Both of the below posts were made on another Forum, earlier this week:[/color]

[color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=3][i]Your post covers most of it. Here is some clarification.

Bearing tests, show the bow of the shaft. Think about it. A rod has a slight curvature to it. You put it in a pair of bearings on one end and bend it with a bearing on the other end. What happens, it goes to the point of least resistance, bow up.

As Dave Tutelman taught us, FLO finds the point on a shaft where the spring force on one side is equal to the spring force on the other side. Then the weighted laser pointer moves in a straight line. When you do deflection measurements around a shaft you will see that they are to some degree eliptical in stiffness. Hence, where there is a FLO, 90 degrees around there is another FLO. CPM shows us which is stiffer and the difference between the two CPM readings shows what the degree of difference is. If it is a big number, say 6 CPM the shaft belongs in a dumpster. 3-5, is ok for an amateur, 2 or less professional.

Alignment is BS. Either the shaft is good or it is no good. No amount of alignment, Puring or anything else is going to get me to use a shaft that is R flex on one plane and S flex on another. If the shaft is round, and most are these days, alignment is useless. If it is not round, return it to where you got it. Make this simple test on a regular basis, and return the bad shafts and the problem will go away. In [url="http://www.golfshaftreviews.info/"]www.golfshaftreviews.info[/url], I rate shafts by percentage. Divide the difference by the hard side and you will get a percentage number. Less than 98%, UhOh.

In the Brunswick/Royal Precision scale, 10 cpm was the difference between a 6.0 and a 5.0. A shaft with 5 CPM difference soft to hard side is a 5.0 and a 5.5. Now at the horizon in your swing with the toe up, its a 5.5 and at impact, its a 5.0. Do you really want to play with that shaft as hard as this game is already?

Spine alignment, FLO, bearing based spine finders, these are all things we should regard as folklore. That is my politically correct replacement term for WITCHCRAFT, which angered more clubmakers than I could count. As you said, there was never any proof that any of it mattered. It was just guys that did not really know what they were talking about, teaching other guys that knew even less. The USGA approved Puring because it made the bad shafts of the day, behave according the the USGA rules. With today's manufacturing technology, there is no excuse for bad shafts other than poor quality control or absolute disregard for shaft quality.[/i][/size][/font][/color]

[color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=3][size=2][background=transparent][i]Rusty
[url="http://www.fit2score.com/"]www.fit2score.com[/url]
A Golf Digest America's 100 Best Clubfitter[/i][/background][/size][/size][/font][/color]


[i][color=#000000][size=3]I was the guy that Dick Weiss came to back in 1996 after he had been doing his initial research into the effects of shaft asymmetry, when he wanted someone to verify what he was seeing in his initial work. Dick insisted that the result of testing we did for him was to be kept confidential. We honored that request. [/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=3]But I can tell you that back then, while shaft makers were aware that their shafts did not have the same exact bending properties in all directions about the circumference of their shafts, they did not have any awareness of how asymmetrical many of their shafts were, and what this could do to shot performance for certain swing types. [/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=3]So yes, shafts back then exhibited a very wide range of asymmetry. And in our testing for Dick, we most certainly saw that finding the most stable plane of bending in these asymmetrical shafts and then orienting that plane at the target line most certainly improved the consistency of the impact and ball flight. We even were able to orient certain shafts in a way in which it virtually made it impossible to hit a draw or fade. [/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=3]This was a point that the USGA also discovered when Dick came to them to appeal for a conformity ruling for his process. The USGA did actually write into their rule concerining shaft orientation that it was only to be done to allow shafts to play as they were intended to be designed to play, and not to be done for the purpose of purposely influencing the flight of the ball. [/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=3]Once Dick's [color=red][size=4][background=yellow]SST[/background][/size][/color] PURE process became more and more known, the shaft makers began to look more closely into this. Today, most of the better shaft makers do institute a test or tests on all of their shafts as a normal step in production. From this they position the shafts' logo/name such that what they find under their test as a stable plane of bending is then oriented at the target when the shaft is installed logo up or logo down. [/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=3]So today you won't see as wide of a variation in asymmetry in shafts made by quality shaft makers as there was back when Dick discovered this and invented his process. But because every shaft maker has a "flyer shaft" here and there, there are times purely at random when a golfer might have a shaft checked and re oriented and see a difference in impact consistency on the face and a change in ball flight. [/size][/color][/i]

[color=#000000][size=3][i]TOM[/i] (Wishon)[/size][/color]

[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1384278350' post='8137752']
I would support the people who fitted you.
Too many people complain that there are not enough competent fitters out there. They're not out there because people don't support them.
You've found a fitter who has provided you with a valuable service and yet you contemplate taking another route simply because it's cheaper?
Come on people, there is a time for cheap and there is a time for smart. Be smart and support your local fitter! Be cheap and watch them disappear!
[/quote]
I agree with nbg352. The fitter is going the extra mile to make sure the clubs are as good as they can be for you. That is worth the money regardless of whether they are doing puring. I would just clarify what your warranty now is.

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1384296679' post='8139482']
[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1384278350' post='8137752']
I would support the people who fitted you.
Too many people complain that there are not enough competent fitters out there. They're not out there because people don't support them.
You've found a fitter who has provided you with a valuable service and yet you contemplate taking another route simply because it's cheaper?
Come on people, there is a time for cheap and there is a time for smart. Be smart and support your local fitter! Be cheap and watch them disappear!
[/quote]
I agree with nbg352. The fitter is going the extra mile to make sure the clubs are as good as they can be for you. That is worth the money regardless of whether they are doing puring. I would just clarify what your warranty now is.
[/quote]

If I were Titleist, I'd cancel the account of any "fitter" who represented my clubs so negatively. To suggest that Titleist can't put together a decent set of clubs and someone has to take them apart and put them back to together at a cost of $250, is ludicrous.

[quote name='Walkerdb7' timestamp='1384202579' post='8132858']
I got fitted for new irons today at a boutique GD top 100 fitter. I was very impressed with the fitting and the results, but I am skeptical to purchase from them. The clubs are $30 more a club due to their club building process.

Instead of ordering a set assembled by Titleist, the place buys a stock set, rips the shafts out, adds the custom shafts, and then sells them. There big pitch is that ordering a set from Titleist with the C Tapers will yield clubs with different swing weights between clubs, varying shaft lengths, and the shafts won't be "pured".

Does anyone knowledgeable on the subject have an opinion? Are clubs built by Titleist that shotty? Does "puring" an a shaft make a huge difference?
[/quote]

Have the "fitter" do only your even number clubs ... leave the odd #'s as Titleist builds them. I've got $100 that says when you play with them, you won't be able to tell the difference.

[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1384278350' post='8137752']
I would support the people who fitted you.
Too many people complain that there are not enough competent fitters out there. They're not out there because people don't support them.
You've found a fitter who has provided you with a valuable service and yet you contemplate taking another route simply because it's cheaper?
Come on people, there is a time for cheap and there is a time for smart. Be smart and support your local fitter! Be cheap and watch them disappear!
[/quote]

I paid $350 for a fitting, so I think I have done my part in supporting the local fitter! I 100% will be buying my putter from them and will also definitely go through this process and pay the fitting fee every time I purchase a new club. I am all for supporting the fitter, I am just not sure if they are adding value to the actual club purchasing process. I'll read the recommended posts above and go from there. I am a member at a golf club and of the players club at my local PGA SS... I could definitely rationalize purchasing the clubs from a few different places.

[quote name='Walkerdb7' timestamp='1384307836' post='8140454']
[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1384278350' post='8137752']
I would support the people who fitted you.
Too many people complain that there are not enough competent fitters out there. They're not out there because people don't support them.
You've found a fitter who has provided you with a valuable service and yet you contemplate taking another route simply because it's cheaper?
Come on people, there is a time for cheap and there is a time for smart. Be smart and support your local fitter! Be cheap and watch them disappear!
[/quote]

I paid $350 for a fitting, so I think I have done my part in supporting the local fitter! I 100% will be buying my putter from them and will also definitely go through this process and pay the fitting fee every time I purchase a new club. I am all for supporting the fitter, I am just not sure if they are adding value to the actual club purchasing process. I'll read the recommended posts above and go from there. I am a member at a golf club and of the players club at my local PGA SS... I could definitely rationalize purchasing the clubs from a few different places.
[/quote]

You paid $350 for a fitting? & the "fitter" is going to charge you and additional $30/club to pull them apart and put them back together? So $600 + the price of a new set of Titleist irons ... which the fitter is going to sell the pull out shafts? So ... he's getting paid $350 + $240 + $70 (for the pulls) + $150 (profit on selling you the Titleist irons).

$825 profit on a set of irons? Good work if you can get it.

$350 was for an entire bag fitting. I was there for about 3 hours and we went through every club in the bag.

[quote name='Walkerdb7' timestamp='1384322051' post='8141596']
$350 was for an entire bag fitting. I was there for about 3 hours and we went through every club in the bag.
[/quote]
That is a lot for a fitting.
Why not ask them to order the clubs with the shafts you want and have them check length, swingweight, loft, lie and flex when they arrive. At worst, one or two clubs may need adjustment. And as many have said, Pureing is probably unnecessary. Just don't have it done.

[quote name='Walkerdb7' timestamp='1384322051' post='8141596']
$350 was for an entire bag fitting. I was there for about 3 hours and we went through every club in the bag.
[/quote]

$115/hour.

[quote name='Walkerdb7' timestamp='1384322051' post='8141596']
$350 was for an entire bag fitting. I was there for about 3 hours and we went through every club in the bag.
[/quote]

That is too much even for an entire bag fitting. My local club builder/fitter charges $125 for an entire bag fitting with a Trackman.

Different places charge different rates. About 5 yrs. ago I paid $150 for a driver fitting (which did not include the price for a balance certified shaft stabilizer). So, $350 for the entire bag fitting and close or over 3 hrs. is pretty good.
Regarding the Titleist irons, go for the PURED custom set if you can afford it, but I would try to discuss with the person in charge if some price adjustments can be work out since you did the fitting with them (you're showing them loyalty and spending a good amount of money to them).
I've only pured a few of my drivers, but since I'm not good enough of a player, I can't truly say whether it's worth it or not. I guess if it takes out one variable out of the equation which might give you a littl bit more confidence, then sure, why not have the process done.

The fitting may have been expensive, but I am content with the results.

However, based on everyone's feedback on price, I don't feel nearly as obligated to purchase from them. I also hate the idea of the shaft bands being all over the place. I would find that distracting.

Like I stated b4 on my post, I think the fitting price was fine, but most important, YOU were happy with it.

Regarding the shaft bands, you can cover them up, remove & re-align (if possible) or totally remove. Not a major deal breaker for not getting the PURE process done.

Lastly, it's your money, so you have final decision on what or what not to do... So don't stress over people's opinions here. You wrote a post, asking for opinions and advise which you sure have gotten plenty of.


[quote name='Walkerdb7' timestamp='1384355254' post='8142532']
The fitting may have been expensive, but I am content with the results.

However, based on everyone's feedback on price, I don't feel nearly as obligated to purchase from them. I also hate the idea of the shaft bands being all over the place. I would find that distracting.
[/quote]

If you buy them w/o the custom work, have the clubs checked and compared to your specs when you get them ("Trust, but verify").

If they are wrong, send them back to be corrected - and again and again, if necessary.

If they are right, great!

(Your fitting sounds like Cool Clubs process? I think their full bag pricing is actually higher.)