ANNOUNCEMENT:
Please have patience. We understand that this sucks and it will get MUCH better.

Link to full post HERE
Please add any bugs (problems) with new software in the Website Help Forum. There is a dedicated thread HERE.

Curious - what is zero tolerance for ALL specs in a set worth?

TomWishonTomWishon Sponsors Posts: 3,653 ✭✭
Color me always curious to know what a large segment of golfers think about topics related to equipment.



There have been a few threads over the past days/weeks in which posters debate/argue/defend/criticize the accuracy of the specs of the clubs they plan to order from a company. Many have "proof" that an OEM custom department can't hit specs with reliable accuracy. Others swear they can be dead on. Some feel a top 100 or top certified custom clubmaker is the only place to get zero tolerance specs on their clubs, others doubt that.



As a 27 yr clubhead and shaft designer and 40 yr veteran of the golf equipment industry, I can testify that the chances of getting a set of 14 clubs with the around 200 total specifications in total all at zero tolerance is close to the odds required to win the Power Ball lottery. It doesn't happen because there are nearly 200 separate specs on all the 14 clubs added together and every single company has to live with +/- tolerances on every head, shaft, grip. Then you have the element of possible mistakes made by the worker who is building the clubs as an 8-5, 250 day/yr job not making stellar wages or mistakes made by a clubmaker who either may not be fully proficient in his measurement skills or his equipment is not in perfect spec for making the measurements.



So all these threads and posts about spec accuracy in clubs versus what I know from experience about tolerances and mistakes makes me wonder. . . . . . .



What would it be worth to each of you who are interested in accurate club specs if you really and truly could get all 14 clubs in your set made to a zero tolerance with NO mistakes?



Now we need to put a number on that so here is the frame of reference for you to think about this and come up with your own number. A basic high end set of 14 clubs including high COR woods, high COR hybrids, forged carbon steel irons bought from any major golf retailer will cost around $2150, give or take a hundred. That's driver, two fwys, two hybrids, 7 forged irons, 2 wedges and a putter - all high end in their categories.



OK, let's quantify zero tolerance. . . . .



Lengths - +/-1/32"

Lofts, Lies, Face Angles - +/- 1/8*

Shaft flex/bend profile - 7 different positions of stiffness measurement with +/-1cpm for the butt to center and +/-2cpm for the tip section (zero tolerance on tip sections is IMPOSSIBLE)

Shaft Weight - +/- 1/4 gram

Total Weight - +/-1 gram

Swingweight - +/- 1/8 swingweight

Grip weight - +/- 1/4 gram

Grip Size - +/-0.002" for the 2" and 6" positions on each grip



What is it worth to you to get zero tolerance for every spec for every one of those clubs?



Just curious,

TOM

Comments

  • AwalkspoiledAwalkspoiled Advanced Members Posts: 3,308
    Wow. That's some list. I can tell you what I do in building an iron set, and how long it takes, and how much I'd like to get paid. I can't touch shaft flex/bend profile really, just butt CPM, without a truly ridiculous amount of testing. I can pick a proper shaft design for each club but after that I'm stuck with that design. I can't touch total weight to closer than about 2gm without spending a FORTUNE on overstock so I can pick and choose (TWGT has the stock on hand of course, and so do the major OEMs, but they'd still have to hand-pick).



    Lengths +- 1/64"

    Loft/Lie +- 1/8°

    Shaft flex +- 1cpm of slope on a 5" or Rifle clamp

    Shaft weight +- 2gm

    Total weight +- 2 gm

    Swingweight +-1/8 point ungripped

    Grip weight +- 1gm (sorry - not interested in tighter than that)

    Grip size +- 0.002 seems about right - I'd certainly notice anything looser.



    That's my standard build for irons because I'mnot interested in building any looser to save a couple of hours, and 8 clubs takes me a good 8 hours total - the bulk of it going back and forth from the freq meter to the chopsaw. Can I ask for $40 an hour (apart from the time it takes to order, manage stock, achieve proper fitting specs for the player in the first place, tweak afterwards)? I hope so. So rebuilding an iron set at those tolerances should cost no less than $320 over standard retail, or over cost+markup in the case of components.



    But you're talking a full set! Getting the face angles right on woods adds another layer of complexity and a lot more time on the bending machine, to say nothing of what it takes to fit bounce, flange width, relief and other custom grind options on wedges, much less what it takes to fit a putter, so all in all it's hard to see how it could be done anywhere less than $1,500. Can you get it? Sure, if you live in Japan, or in a US city near a major league team's stadium or practice facility. If you live in the Berkshires? Not a chance.
    Cobra Fly-Z/Matrix Ozik F6M2
    Cally XHP 15°/Altus or 3Deep/Striper H2
    Cally XHP 18°/Altus hb
    Cally XHP23/Altus hb or Cally X-Prototype 24°/Program 95
    6-GW Cobra Forged One Length on flighted Matrix Program 95
    Scratch D/D wedges
    Bettinardi QB3
  • 313313 Members Posts: 141
    from my perspective, which needs qualification, could rationalize 5700 give or take...

    800 driver

    800 putter

    1000 fw+ute

    2500 3-w

    600 gw+lw



    but this is from a perspective of...

    tech is near its apex & this is a long term investment (10+ yrs, or until they wear out)

    the set truly fits my eye & swing, i am satisfied, even proud of the fit

    everything is spot on & of the very best in materials/craftsmanship, i can be confident in this

    i dont need the cash for something of greater importance



    heck, i might even go 6-7, but thats including gratuity... ;-)
  • HISPLHISPL Advanced Members Posts: 3,068
    I think $6k would be a fair estimate based on the fact that $2k would be labour and $4k equipment cost with much of that coming down to the fact that there would have to be a large number of heads shafts and grips to be able to weight, CPM and size sort.



    So I would allow a week of time for the build and the fitting.



    Does that seem like a fair estimate to everyone else?
  • MizzyManMizzyMan ClubWRX Charter Members Posts: 1,197
    It wouldn't be worth any more to me than being CLOSE to those tolerances. 1/16" in length, 1/2* in loft, a few CPM's, a gram or 2 in shaft, 1/2 point in SW, etc. Those would be close enough for me to where I wouldn't pay any more for closer tolerances because I wouldn't notice the variance, nor would I feel that they would make a difference. Maybe not the answer you're looking for, but my honest opinion. These guys saying $6,000 or whatever, does that mean that's what it'd be worth to them? And they would pay that? I can't honestly imagine anyone paying that much for ZT. Sure, it may cost that much to GET it, but something about diminishing returns makes me think "what difference does an eighth of an inch or a gram or a couple cycles really matter?"
  • deckdeck Off The Deck Advanced Members Posts: 3,849
    To me it was worth a trip to Durango Colorado.
    Ping G400 LST HZRDUS Black tipped .5 9'
    Taylormade M1 (2016) 15 Fubuki Z S
    Rocketballz 19' ATX Green S
    X2Hot 22' ATX Green S
    Callaway Apex Pro (2014) C-tapers S
    Mackdaddy 2's 52 and 58 C-Tapers R
    James Ingles Scratch Handmande
  • SatelliteGuySatelliteGuy Just hit the flippin' ball Advanced Members Posts: 4,487
    deck wrote:


    To me it was worth a trip to Durango Colorado.






    Hahahaha... Deck.... There's something on your nose buddy....



    Kidding. image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />



    I think close enough is good enough for mere mortals so what would it be worth to me?



    Nothing.
    9.5 Opti440 - Fujikura Rombax 5Wo6 X

    Taylormade 17.9 4 wood - NVX (X)
    Adams DHY Hybrid X
    Cobra ACP's 4-PW
    MD2's 52/58
    LowTide FIN #5 Custom
  • clambertoclamberto Advanced Members Posts: 265
    The law of diminishing returns comes into play at some point, right? I could not justify spending $6-7K on a set with specs as tight as you listed. $500 premium to off the rack for me.



    What's next? Weighing each sleeve of my long sleeve shirt to ensure that one doesn't weigh more than the other when playing in cold weather???
  • coopscoops Advanced Members Posts: 1,200 ✭✭
    edited November 2013
    I wouldn't pay extra for those tolerances.... as they seem ridiculously tight, to me.



    Especially +\- 1/8 on something as arbitrary as a swingweight scale, which was only ever meant as a reasonable guess to get clubs to feel same-ish when swung, and only 'works' as designed if used with the same shafts and in 1/2" length increments as you go from club to club.



    The 1/8 degree on loft seems a bit tight also...maybe around a 1/3 yard difference if the usual 4 degree club gaps give you 10 yard club gapping? Lie angle to 1/8 of a degree.....?



    I'd say most complaints or annoyance would be the intentional loft deflation of driver heads, where they are knowingly labelled as eg a 10 1/2 degree head that is 12 deg even though +/- 1/2 a degree is a reasonable standard tolerance and the OEM intentionally biases the labelling to massage egos. ( ie a large random bunch of 9 degree heads should average out at or close to 9 not 10 or more).
  • KILLEDBYASHANKEDWEDGEKILLEDBYASHANKEDWEDGE 300 YARD DRAWS AND 10 LB HOOKS! Advanced Members Posts: 4,524
    Balanced and Blueprinted = Hot Rod sticks!
  • HISPLHISPL Advanced Members Posts: 3,068
    The thing is everyone has there own idea on what clubs should be worth I guess.



    Some folks that walk into a golf shop don't want to pay $499 for a package set with 13 clubs a bag and trolley/buggy and ask if you have any trade ins or second hand equipment.



    Others won't play anything unless it is Honma 5 star or Mauruman Majesty because it is "beneath them" and is seen as a blight on their social appearance.



    Somewhere between is the reasonable person that wants the best PERFORMING set of clubs that they can get and somewhere between $2500 and $6000 will probably get them that.
  • eagle1997eagle1997 Advanced Members Posts: 17,985 ✭✭
    Between woods, hybrids and irons, I play my irons the longest (approx. 5 yrs for a set), so I might consider it for that. $500, spread out over 5 yrs with annual loft/lie checks seems about right to me, but probably wouldn't be worth it to the club builder.
    Cobra F8+ 9.5°
    TEE XCG4 3w 15°
    Cally Steelhead XR 17°
    Cobra BioCell 22°
    Cobra One Length 5-PW
    Bstone J15 50°
    Bstone J15 52°
    Odyssey Black Milled #1
  • masliemaslie Advanced Members Posts: 234
    After all it's comeback to FEEL again, so for me it's just worth as much as good fitted with MOI matching fee. I don't think there is added value from golfer perspective, while it should be easier for club maker to get jobs done therefore I believe it should be include as standard procedure / tools for carrying their title as a real Professional Club Fitter.
    Driver -
    Ryoma Premia - Diamana B.
    Fw -
    #3 Cally Legacy'10 - Diamana R.
    #5 Rbz stg1 tour TP std Rul.
    #7 Cleaveland Launcher 1st gen std Fuji gold.
    Irons -
    #4-Hy JBeam.
    #5-Pw Romaro Ray H modus 120.
    Wedges -
    52 & 58 Fourteen Rm 12 std Dg.
    Putter -
    Masda studio 1.
  • UpgrayeddUpgrayedd Advanced Members Posts: 1,222
    edited November 2013
    I wouldn't pay extra to get them that much tighter. If they are off more than 0.5* loft/lie that is noticeable to me and worth up to about $10 per club to make it right. (The guy I go to currently charges $5) The other stuff, club head weight in particular, I am not worried about unless it seems WAY off (which usually means too light for my taste).
  • SocratesSocrates How can it be so *&#% hard to make a shoulder turn? WinnipegAdvanced Members Posts: 9,045 ✭✭
    I'm sure someone would pay a lot for clubs built with tolerances like that, but then they would end up on their wall and never get played just so they could brag about having the best clubs ever made. And that precision would be wasted the moment any one of use used them as we are worse than any variable in the specs.



    Reasonable and obtainable even if you don't have access to a warehouse of components:

    Lengths - +/-1/16"

    Lofts, Lies, - +/- 1/4*

    Shaft flex/bend profile - couple of cpm's

    Shaft Weight - +/- 2 grams

    Total Weight - +/-2 grams

    Swingweight - +/- 1/8 swingweight

    Grip weight - +/- 2 grams

    Grip Size - +/-0.01" for the 2" and 6" positions on each grip
    Ping G400 9º TFC 419 Stiff at 45"
    Jazz Bear Cat 3 wd Aerotech Stiff
    Ping i20 3 Hyb 707H Stiff
    X2 Hot 4_-PW Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
    Vokey SM2 52º cc
    Ping ES 56º and ES 60º
    Scotty X7M Dual 38"
    MCC Align Midsize
  • ronsc1985ronsc1985 Advanced Members Posts: 555
    My vote is nothing.



    Just hitting the manufaturing spec, if you even have one, is sufficient. +/- 1 degree on the angles an +/- 3 grams on the weights. Anything more then that is just picking the flyshyt out of the pepper for anyone but a tour player.
  • denismcgdenismcg Advanced Members Posts: 169 ✭✭
    It would be worth nothing to me as I feel that the specs would not be the same after a few rounds. The numbers are bound to move a bit after a few hundred range balls hit off mats or hard turf.
    [font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif]Bridgestone J715 B3 10.5 - Graphite Design Tour AD-GP6S
    Tour Edge Exotics CB Pro Limited F2 - Kurakage TiNi stiff
    Tour Edge Exotics CB Pro Utility 19 - Kurakage TiNi stiff
    Taylormade P790 3-PW - True Temper X100 Tour Issue
    TaylorMade Milled Grind 52/56/60 (all bent 1* strong) - X100
    Rife IMO putter[/font]
  • ScooterMcTavishScooterMcTavish Staying away from thrift stores.... Advanced Members Posts: 2,687
    edited November 2013
    Interesting topic Tom, and I'll bet you'll get both extremes in response.



    Me, I play vintage irons I buy for approx. $20-$50 set, and all are forged, which should make me sensitive to this.



    However, I'm not good enough (even as a single digit) to need anything made to a level of precision that you detail. If my irons are still travelling expected yardages, then I see nothing wrong, and am unsure how much minute adjustments would make. To go through your list:



    Lengths - +/-1/32" - I doubt my hands are placed within 1/32" of where they were the last time I held the club

    Lofts, Lies, Face Angles - +/- 1/8* - Not sure this would make a difference. As long as the lofts are not way off, I can change lie and face angle by 1/8* just with my hands on purpose every swing. Assuming I have a completely flat perfect lie. Every time.

    Shaft flex/bend profile - 7 different positions of stiffness measurement with +/-1cpm for the butt to center and +/-2cpm for the tip section (zero tolerance on tip sections is IMPOSSIBLE) I'm not good enough to notice this. Factory flex tolerances on Staff and Hogan irons seem to have been pretty good.

    Shaft Weight - +/- 1/4 gram - 1/4g is immeasurable for the perceptive abilities of human hands

    Total Weight - +/-1 gram - 1 gram might be detectable, but I doubt it

    Swingweight - +/- 1/8 swingweight - You can be off by 1/8th a swingweight just with crud on the face of the iron, couldn't you be? Or through more use and wear to an often used club like a PW?

    Grip weight - +/- 1/4 gram - See comment above

    Grip Size - +/-0.002" for the 2" and 6" positions on each grip - My hands shrink and expand more than this, just based on how much fluid I've taken in that day and the day before



    Not that I'm trying to dissuade you if you feel this is a premium service that some golfers might pay for. However, when something would be as expensive as this likely would be (just on labor alone), to me this speaks more about a "prestige" or "luxury" product.



    In other words, there are likely guys willing to drop a few K just to say "These are fully customized by Tom Wishon to the following specs......." - although this adds prestige to the clubs, I am highly doubtful that it would greatly improve one's scoring.



    Or it would be perfect for the 20 hdcp who is OCD, and is convinced the "poor tolerances" on their clubs are preventing them from getting to the PGA.
    Titleist 909D2, 9.5*, JAVLNFX M7
    Titleist 909F2, 15.5*, "For Titleist" Blueboard
    Titleist 909H, 21*, "For Titleist" Blueboard
    Titleist 755 4-P, GAT 95
    MacGregor Jeff Sheets 52* GW
    MacGregor Jeff Sheets 56* SW
    Titleist Vokey Oil Can 60* LW
    Odyssey White Ice Sabertooth
    WITB Link
    Current set photo here!
  • esketoresesketores Advanced Members Posts: 2,069
    I work in the world of four decimal places. And have seen the world of 7 decimal places. (Millionths of an inch... there is a reason as to why some B1 bomber parts are so darn expensive.)

    Basically there is no such thing as "zero" tolerance.



    Grip weight within .25g. Surely such accuracy would require hand sorting. The manufacturer specs are greater than that. One batch of material to another can have differing specific gravities thus effecting part weights lot to lot. If a grip weighs 40g - 60g even at the low end .25g would be a 6% deviation.

    +/-.002" on an installed grip. Please

    .125g swing weight... breathing on it will change the weight by more than that.



    Tom to answer your question... to get those kind to tolerances... first I feel the listed tolerances are unreasonable.

    I would not waste your time even asking for such tolerances.

    And would not pay for them.
    PING G25 12 degree w/S+ @ 45"
    Titleist 910F 17° / 910h 24° & 27°
    Titleist 913Hd 20°
    PING G25's 6-U KBS Tour - V
    Cleveland RTX 53 / 588 56°
    Callaway ProType ix 9ht
  • tx33tx33 Advanced Members Posts: 454
    edited November 2013
    esketores wrote:


    Basically there is no such thing as "zero" tolerance.


    +1

    All that matters is a 'tight enough' QC for those specs that actually matter in a clubs performance.
  • OnePuttEagleOnePuttEagle Members Posts: 106
    Tom,



    Even if I won the Powerball Lottery. I would still choose to build my own equipment to my owns specs because it's fun and makes my golf game more enjoyable.



    Obviously, Jack Nicholson and I have differing opinions.



    Jack Nicholson Buys $75,000 Set Of Golf Clubs



    http://www.golfchann...set-golf-clubs/
  • JCAGJCAG John Curry Advanced Members Posts: 2,053 ✭✭
    edited November 2013
    maslie wrote:


    After all it's comeback to FEEL again, so for me it's just worth as much as good fitted with MOI matching fee. I don't think there is added value from golfer perspective, while it should be easier for club maker to get jobs done therefore I believe it should be include as standard procedure / tools for carrying their title as a real Professional Club Fitter.




    Not to split hairs, but a Club Fitter fits and a Clubmaker builds. The OP was asking about tight specs which is a Clubmaker issue.



    The tightest specs in the world are useless if the clubs do not properly fit. To me if the clubs fit properly, then the build specs can be a bit loose. Such as like plus or minus 1/2 a swingweight or plus or minus 1-2 CPM's would be close enough.



    I have always said a well trained monkey can build one golf club. Now does it fit or can he build another to match it are much different issues.
  • Sean2Sean2 #TheWRX (Callaway Trip) Members Posts: 30,826 ✭✭
    I don't know if those kinds of tolerances would make that much of a difference in my game. My length and lie angles are correct, and my grip is fine. Perhaps for a professional, or a very good amateur, it may make a difference, but for me? I'm not so sure.
    [font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Callaway Rogue[/font]
    [font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Callaway GBB Epic 16º/20º/24º[/font]
    [font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Callaway Steelhead XR 25º[/font]
    [font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Callaway Apex CF16 6-AW [/font]
    [font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Callaway MD3/MD-PM 54º/58º[/font]
    [font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Callaway "O" Works #7[/font]
  • DaveMacDaveMac Advanced Members Posts: 3,106
    edited November 2013
    I have been vocal on a few occasions regarding the final quality of delivered clubs (mostly OEM's but I have had a few bad club builder jobs as well) so I have a different take on this, why can't I have this level of quality for the retail price? Even if I can't feel the difference (although I think I could) it would be reassuring to know the clubs have been built to an exacting standard and it would be nice to have some redress when what you get, is not what you expected. It would make the loop of custom fit / custom build much tighter, what you tested and ordered is actually what is delivered.



    It appears to me that this is perhaps more achievable for the large volume producers, requiring tightening of component tolerances and the introduction of weight (and flex sorting for shafts) sorting for heads, shaft and grips.



    If I had to pay a little extra for higher quality, I guess I would but it would have to come with some form of guarantee and protection, confirming the clubs were assembled to a higher standard. I am suspicious the big players would simply supply current quality while charging a higher price.



    I know that as it stands we can't even agree how to measure the length of a club or accurately size a grip but perhaps this will change in time (agreed industry wide standards would be great).



    I know its unrealistic..
  • jaclubnutjaclubnut Members Posts: 8
    Seems some of the posters who may have talked about wanting accurate specs now don't think that much precision is either worth much more money, or they don't think that kind of precision is important.



    Which makes me want to ask, how close does anyone think their specs need to be? +/-1/2 deg on loft, lie, face angle good enough? +/- 1/4" on length or less? +/- half a swingweight or less? I am interested to hear just how close is close enough to the golfers?
  • SocratesSocrates How can it be so *&#% hard to make a shoulder turn? WinnipegAdvanced Members Posts: 9,045 ✭✭
    jaclubnut wrote:


    Seems some of the posters who may have talked about wanting accurate specs now don't think that much precision is either worth much more money, or they don't think that kind of precision is important.



    Which makes me want to ask, how close does anyone think their specs need to be? +/-1/2 deg on loft, lie, face angle good enough? +/- 1/4" on length or less? +/- half a swingweight or less? I am interested to hear just how close is close enough to the golfers?


    For me, personally, unless I invest in a bunch of digital equipment (lie, loft, sw scale) practical has to win out. +/- 1/4º lie/loft, +/- 1/16" on length and +/- 1/4 swing weight. I can say I get closer than that, but there will be enough margin of error in measurement from one time to the next. Golf isn't a game of perfect anyway and my own day to day variations in body, stance, plane, grip, back condition means that I'm more of a variable than my clubs.
    Ping G400 9º TFC 419 Stiff at 45"
    Jazz Bear Cat 3 wd Aerotech Stiff
    Ping i20 3 Hyb 707H Stiff
    X2 Hot 4_-PW Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
    Vokey SM2 52º cc
    Ping ES 56º and ES 60º
    Scotty X7M Dual 38"
    MCC Align Midsize
  • Howard JonesHoward Jones Advanced Members Posts: 8,415 ✭✭
    TomWishon wrote:


    Color me always curious to know what a large segment of golfers think about topics related to equipment.



    There have been a few threads over the past days/weeks in which posters debate/argue/defend/criticize the accuracy of the specs of the clubs they plan to order from a company. Many have "proof" that an OEM custom department can't hit specs with reliable accuracy. Others swear they can be dead on. Some feel a top 100 or top certified custom clubmaker is the only place to get zero tolerance specs on their clubs, others doubt that.



    As a 27 yr clubhead and shaft designer and 40 yr veteran of the golf equipment industry, I can testify that the chances of getting a set of 14 clubs with the around 200 total specifications in total all at zero tolerance is close to the odds required to win the Power Ball lottery. It doesn't happen because there are nearly 200 separate specs on all the 14 clubs added together and every single company has to live with +/- tolerances on every head, shaft, grip. Then you have the element of possible mistakes made by the worker who is building the clubs as an 8-5, 250 day/yr job not making stellar wages or mistakes made by a clubmaker who either may not be fully proficient in his measurement skills or his equipment is not in perfect spec for making the measurements.



    So all these threads and posts about spec accuracy in clubs versus what I know from experience about tolerances and mistakes makes me wonder. . . . . . .



    What would it be worth to each of you who are interested in accurate club specs if you really and truly could get all 14 clubs in your set made to a zero tolerance with NO mistakes?



    Now we need to put a number on that so here is the frame of reference for you to think about this and come up with your own number. A basic high end set of 14 clubs including high COR woods, high COR hybrids, forged carbon steel irons bought from any major golf retailer will cost around $2150, give or take a hundred. That's driver, two fwys, two hybrids, 7 forged irons, 2 wedges and a putter - all high end in their categories.



    OK, let's quantify zero tolerance. . . . .



    Lengths - +/-1/32"

    Lofts, Lies, Face Angles - +/- 1/8*

    Shaft flex/bend profile - 7 different positions of stiffness measurement with +/-1cpm for the butt to center and +/-2cpm for the tip section (zero tolerance on tip sections is IMPOSSIBLE)

    Shaft Weight - +/- 1/4 gram

    Total Weight - +/-1 gram

    Swingweight - +/- 1/8 swingweight

    Grip weight - +/- 1/4 gram

    Grip Size - +/-0.002" for the 2" and 6" positions on each grip



    What is it worth to you to get zero tolerance for every spec for every one of those clubs?



    Just curious,

    TOM




    I really dont think there is a place where ALL this can be done, and the reason is shafts.

    You would need more than one box of tapers, all Tour Issue to start with, and then sort them another "10 times" to get a tolerance on weight down below +/- 0.5, and even more challenging, find "a set of shaft", where all 7 flex zones follow the same slope within 1 CPM. I dont think that can be done, without a job that cant justify the time and cost needed.



    The other specs is more/less the way i build all irons or other clubs for that matter, but i only measure shaft butt on 1 shaft, and control only 1 club in a set of irons for 1 grip size, i dont bother to measure all grips when done, but thats the only thing i drop.



    Loft and lie, is checked and adjusted 3 times before done

    - #1 Before assemble to make sure a later adjustment dont mess up SW value

    - #2 After dry time, before testing in Trackman

    - #3 in the players hand, assisted by Trackman for tweak of loft and lie to optimum dispersion



    Since loft and lie adjustment after dry fit, WILL move SW value, its very hard to make a set where all irons is within 1/4 of a SW point and 1 gram on total weight when all is said and done, but thats how it should be.
  • TomWishonTomWishon Sponsors Posts: 3,653 ✭✭


    I dont think that can be done, without a job that cant justify the time and cost needed.






    Of course you are right about the hassle of shaft sorting to get to such specs. I tossed those extreme specs out there in this thread because I was curious to hear what golfers would say about the concept of getting clubs as close to perfect as possible. I was curious to know if some put a value on it, or if some would take the direction to say "it wouldn't make a difference for my game."



    Since many have indicated the latter, that makes me curious to know JUST HOW CLOSE do you think the specs on a set should be to what they are stated to be by whoever makes them? Lofts, lies face angles +/-1/2*, more or less? Lengths +/-1/4", more or less? Swingweights +/-1/2 point, more or less?



    Howard, you know that there hasn't been a set of golf clubs ever made that is within these +/-1/2*, +/-1/4". +/-1/2 point tolerances I just listed, for each club in the set/bag. So the additional question becomes, how close do you feel the specs should be when you plunk down some serious cash for golf clubs?



    Knowing what I know about production tolerances from the very best factories and golf companies on the planet, I simply am very curious to know how accurate golfers think their clubs should be for the money they spend on the clubs.



    TOM
  • neilcneilc Advanced Members Posts: 1,663
    edited November 2013
    TomWishon wrote:



    I dont think that can be done, without a job that cant justify the time and cost needed.






    Of course you are right about the hassle of shaft sorting to get to such specs. I tossed those extreme specs out there in this thread because I was curious to hear what golfers would say about the concept of getting clubs as close to perfect as possible. I was curious to know if some put a value on it, or if some would take the direction to say "it wouldn't make a difference for my game."



    Since many have indicated the latter, that makes me curious to know JUST HOW CLOSE do you think the specs on a set should be to what they are stated to be by whoever makes them? Lofts, lies face angles +/-1/2*, more or less? Lengths +/-1/4", more or less? Swingweights +/-1/2 point, more or less?



    Howard, you know that there hasn't been a set of golf clubs ever made that is within these +/-1/2*, +/-1/4". +/-1/2 point tolerances I just listed, for each club in the set/bag. So the additional question becomes, how close do you feel the specs should be when you plunk down some serious cash for golf clubs?



    Knowing what I know about production tolerances from the very best factories and golf companies on the planet, I simply am very curious to know how accurate golfers think their clubs should be for the money they spend on the clubs.



    TOM






    For me plus minus 1/4 inch in length is huge?



    I made a mistake of cutting one shaft dead on 37.5 instead of allowing 1/8 for the grip and it looked and measure huge!



    when they were lined up ungripped you could clearly see the difference



    1/16 or even 1/32 maximum there I reckon.



    One thing is some guys measure all irons at 60 degrees and some move the measuring devise to accommodate each head s lie angle.That alone could cause some measuring errors?



    One answer would be what is acceptable in the Class 1 Clubmaking Schools or highest standards on the tour van or custom dept for top pros?





    ps I would also include things like shaft logo alignment,grip alignment, ferrule turning and even label attachment as indicators of quality?
  • TomWishonTomWishon Sponsors Posts: 3,653 ✭✭
    neilc wrote:




    One answer would be what is acceptable in the Class 1 Clubmaking Schools or highest standards on the tour van or custom dept for top pros?



    ps I would also include things like shaft logo alignment,grip alignment, ferrule turning and even label attachment as indicators of quality?




    Years ago, the OEMs used to list their tolerances in their catalogs. These days, I don't think any of the OEM companies actually list what their tolerances are. But what they have always been for the assembled club companies during my career is +/-1* for loft, lie, face angle; +/-1 swingweight point; +/-1/8" on lengths, and there were never any types of tolerances stated for shaft weight, flex or for grip size either.



    For most serious players, I think most of them cringe when they think of +/-1* for loft, lie, face angle or +/-1 swingweight point because the thought comes to mind that in a set intended to have 4* loft increments between most irons, you could have two adjacent irons which are 6* apart and two that are 2* apart. Among the sets where there is a designed 3* loft increment between two clubs, then you could be looking at 1* difference between two of the clubs. For sure it is rare to have two adjacent lofts where one is +1, the other -1. So the norm says that when this tolerance kicks in, a 4* increment becomes 3* or 5*. Which for any solidly hit shot does show up as a difference in distance gaps.



    And definitely, when you say +/-1, from the companies that use the best clubhead factories, there will be several of the heads in any set that will be dead on spec or within 1/2*, so not that many are a full degree off. But they are there. And no set made is 0 to +/-1/2 for all lofts, lies, face angles.



    So getting anything better overall than +/-1* for lofts, lies and face angles doesn't happen. Some of the dedicated clubmakers will watch this and deliver more tightness to specs, but not that many. Those who do I hope are marketing this to their prospective golfers because it is a worthwhile add on service. And as to the OEMs custom departments, the stories are out there from many golfers who complain that when they had their clubs checked, several were off.



    Actually it was from this knowledge that there are no sets out there within really close tolerances for everything that I simply was curious to start this thread. Serious players want their clubs to be as accurate as possible, but they don't know if they are. And in the end, I simply am interested to know how close is close enough to most golfers? And thus, what is this worth to get it?



    TOM
  • tocinotocino Advanced Members Posts: 2,239 ✭✭
    I would only consider paying extra to get tolerences that tight if I were a low single-digit/scratch amateur who plans on playing a lot of tournament golf OR a touring professional. At that level I believe you need any advantage you can get to increase your chances of making cuts and placing/winning tournaments. As a 20+ handicap weekend hack, the extra money I'd spend on something like that would be a waste. In fact at my skill level, paying for those tolerences would probably give me more of a placebo effect than anything else.
  • trhodetrhode Fitter / Builder Advanced Members Posts: 1,941 ✭✭
    As a club builder, I'm having a hard time figuring a value for all of this. We like to think that we are building to a closer spec than a OEM because we are actually doing the build, not a 9-5 worker. I think for this reason I would have to look at the things that are not adjustable, like the specs of the shafts for instance. Lengths, Lofts, Lies, Face Angles, total weight, swing weight, and grip size are fairly easily manipulated with the right equipment and knowledge. The items that are more "out of control", like shaft profile, would seem to hold a higher value in my book. I have built my business around manufacturers that seem to take more interest in the quality of their products, such as Wishon, Accra, and Pure and have stayed away from the companies that tend to go after "tonnage", which I won't name. I guess as far as a value, I would say that the hourly rate of the builder should be increased. Think of it like a mechanic. There are a lot out there, but most people, when they find that one mechanic that can make their car purr like no other, will spend the extra $$$ for their service. Just my $.02.
  • stumblinhorsestumblinhorse Advanced Members Posts: 481
    I think there are 2 components to the cost. There is the "work" to get that tight of tolerances, this can be pretty well set or fixed, let's say $50-70 a club. But the variable is the materials in my mind. Unless you select a parallel tip iron shaft, it might take 14 shafts to make those tolerances in 10 irons. It might take a couple of heads: irons and driver/woods/hybrids to get the right desired specs.



    So the reasonable approach as with most custom jobs the cost is labor and materials. The tighter the spec the more materials required. But then it begs the question if you want a driver that is exactly 9.7* who buys the all the heads? And if the shaft variability shows that 3 of the taper tip shafts can't be put in then should that cost be passed on. And if the builder had to make a club to find out it wasn't within spec, does that cost be passed on. I say it should.



    So final answer for me is for a whole bag $1K labor... Materials should be actual cost including waste.
  • Jamboy72Jamboy72 Powered by the old school Members Posts: 5,957 ✭✭
    For me, close enough is also a function of how easy/hard it is to adjust those specs after the set has been built - Loft/Lie on irons can be checked and modified for a minimal charge , so while I'd like those both to be within +/- 1*, that's not a deal breaker -



    Length should be +/- 1/16

    SW within 1/2 pt

    Grip Weight - w/in 1 gr.

    If you can get all of the other specs to allow you to build a club that specs out (whether it be MOI, CPM or whatever) within a specific spec tolerance, then I'm good to go





    I guess part of it is that I've never compared the performance difference between an OEM spec set and a fully blueprinted set - Without knowing how a more "on spec" set would impact on course performance, I struggle to put a dollar figure on it...Unless I could see an increase in performance/consistency, I can't say I'd be willing to pay anything...
  • ptjn1201ptjn1201 Advanced Members Posts: 1,175 ✭✭
    I've been building clubs for myself for 25 years and for others (friends and family) almost that long. Shaft cpm is beyond me -- don't have the tools and truthfully don't worry about it. When making a set of irons, I do weigh all of the shafts and match them to the heads in ascending order. Length is +/- 0.125" -- I don't think with the tools I have that I could promise better than that, though it's likely most shafts I've cut over the years have been closer. Loft and lie I can get to about half a degree. I've added some weights to heads but haven't found many irons over the last 8-10 years that were 2g off of spec. Woods, on the other hand, I find they tend to be light, if anything. I'm pretty careful with my grip prep and keeping it within 1/64" hasn't been a problem -- every once in a while you get a rogue grip that just feels wrong. I don't carry inventory beyond things like ferrules and weights -- I'll usually order a couple of extra grips just in case there's an odd one in there. But as a hobbyist, I'm not going to order 5-6 sets of heads to pick through them -- it's just not practical. And while some of the component companies will hand pick heads for loft/lie/FA/weight -- others won't. If the face angle and the lie of woods I buy is pretty close, I can mostly live with loft issues at the top end of the bag.



    I think the $40-$50 a club is a decent estimate, though I know the costs to do it at a high volume would be much higher than that -- but I don't know whether it would be cost effective for the buyer or the seller. Most players' swings aren't the same from shot to shot -- some are more sensitive to small changes, but 1/2 gram? 1/32"? As one poster said about hand size, water weight can make a difference in how the same grip feels day to day. A club builder with significant volume would be spending a lot of time measuring frequency on every shaft that comes in -- as well as factoring in the record keeping as well.
    [font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Yamaha Inpres D201 11*, Matrix 7321 Stiff [/font]
    [font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]PRGR Egg Spoon HD 14.5* [/font]
    [font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]PRGR Spoon 18* [/font]
    [font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]MacTec NV-NX 24* 9W[/font]
    [font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Bridgestone Access VP-02, 5-AW[/font]
    [font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Inazone EZ-PZ CNC wedge 52* & 60*[/font]
    [font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Mizuno Pro GT-201 Mallet[/font]
  • cxxcxx Advanced Members Posts: 3,028 ✭✭
    That level of precision is of very little value to me. Give me reasonably accurate loft, lie, length and weight and I'm happy. I am a bit surprised that OEM's don't produce tighter spec clubs. That's where it could be done most effectively, but that doesn't seem to affect sales. I understand why a clubmaker would look at this from the perspective of how much work would be involved, to come up with a price but, without some basic changes in the specs of components, reducing the labor, the price would be prohibitive. Maybe in Japan you could get someone to pay for such a thing, but I don't think anywhere else.



    Maybe if you could produce clubs with these specs at the same price you could promote them as such. I don't see too many people spending huge bucks on specs that exceed the precision of their golf swing.
  • Grumpy bumpyGrumpy bumpy Members Posts: 628
    TomWishon wrote:


    Color me always curious to know what a large segment of golfers think about topics related to equipment.



    There have been a few threads over the past days/weeks in which posters debate/argue/defend/criticize the accuracy of the specs of the clubs they plan to order from a company. Many have "proof" that an OEM custom department can't hit specs with reliable accuracy. Others swear they can be dead on. Some feel a top 100 or top certified custom clubmaker is the only place to get zero tolerance specs on their clubs, others doubt that.



    As a 27 yr clubhead and shaft designer and 40 yr veteran of the golf equipment industry, I can testify that the chances of getting a set of 14 clubs with the around 200 total specifications in total all at zero tolerance is close to the odds required to win the Power Ball lottery. It doesn't happen because there are nearly 200 separate specs on all the 14 clubs added together and every single company has to live with +/- tolerances on every head, shaft, grip. Then you have the element of possible mistakes made by the worker who is building the clubs as an 8-5, 250 day/yr job not making stellar wages or mistakes made by a clubmaker who either may not be fully proficient in his measurement skills or his equipment is not in perfect spec for making the measurements.



    So all these threads and posts about spec accuracy in clubs versus what I know from experience about tolerances and mistakes makes me wonder. . . . . . .



    What would it be worth to each of you who are interested in accurate club specs if you really and truly could get all 14 clubs in your set made to a zero tolerance with NO mistakes?



    Now we need to put a number on that so here is the frame of reference for you to think about this and come up with your own number. A basic high end set of 14 clubs including high COR woods, high COR hybrids, forged carbon steel irons bought from any major golf retailer will cost around $2150, give or take a hundred. That's driver, two fwys, two hybrids, 7 forged irons, 2 wedges and a putter - all high end in their categories.



    OK, let's quantify zero tolerance. . . . .



    Lengths - +/-1/32"

    Lofts, Lies, Face Angles - +/- 1/8*

    Shaft flex/bend profile - 7 different positions of stiffness measurement with +/-1cpm for the butt to center and +/-2cpm for the tip section (zero tolerance on tip sections is IMPOSSIBLE)

    Shaft Weight - +/- 1/4 gram

    Total Weight - +/-1 gram

    Swingweight - +/- 1/8 swingweight

    Grip weight - +/- 1/4 gram

    Grip Size - +/-0.002" for the 2" and 6" positions on each grip



    What is it worth to you to get zero tolerance for every spec for every one of those clubs?



    Just curious,

    TOM


    I can only tell you what my customers think it is worth. I am busy, and continue to grow. I book appointment about 3 months In advance.

    My motto. Convert one golfer at a time.

    If they don't know what they are missing, then it means nothing.

    Once a golfer learns, sees, and feels, the benefit of a near perfect set of clubs, their confidence grows and their game improves.

  • mxtitleistgolfermxtitleistgolfer Advanced Members Posts: 1,917 ✭✭
    To reach this tight of spec is in all honestly pointless. First of all, you would need the ability to measure to even smaller increments than your desired spec. I've never seen a golf club length measurement (either ruler or board) that had any smaller increments than 1/16". To get your +/- 1/32 you would need a ruler with 1/32" increments. And unless you're using a laser, the most accurate bending machines I've seen are the Mitchell digital ones with 1/4* increments, which means you can hit your spec to within +/- 1/4*.



    So to really answer your question, what is it worth to a club builder/manufacturer to invest in equipment capable of measuring to such accurate specs?
  • RogerinNewZealandRogerinNewZealand Advanced Members Posts: 2,236 ✭✭
    Per Club $30 to $40.



    That's a budget of up to $560 to sort out a fabulous bag.

    On second hand rebuilt gear this is realistic.

    On Brand New and effectively to Tour Issue Spec............this price isn't realistic!



    Thanks Tom.



    posted at 9.49.....
    2019 7th March

    Ping G5 10.5
    TM 360 TI 10.5 ($5)
    Ping i 25 3 or 5

    Mizuno MP 63 arriving as new......KBS 110 Regular

    Vokey SM5 50 08 F Old SM at 54 and SM6 58S 10

    Titleist Scotty Mid Slant Pro Platinum at 34 and a Half!

    Sold my MP37 and MP33 after xmas and searched for More Mizuno
    Keen to buy MP69 MP4 MP5 later in 2019 for a Shoot Out or buy them all..
    I Survived 7 weeks with only One Set of Irons !!
  • AwalkspoiledAwalkspoiled Advanced Members Posts: 3,308


    To reach this tight of spec is in all honestly pointless. First of all, you would need the ability to measure to even smaller increments than your desired spec. I've never seen a golf club length measurement (either ruler or board) that had any smaller increments than 1/16". To get your +/- 1/32 you would need a ruler with 1/32" increments. And unless you're using a laser, the most accurate bending machines I've seen are the Mitchell digital ones with 1/4* increments, which means you can hit your spec to within +/- 1/4*.



    So to really answer your question, what is it worth to a club builder/manufacturer to invest in equipment capable of measuring to such accurate specs?




    Actually you can get much closer than the smallest unit on your gauge or ruler. If you have 1/16" you can easily see increments in the 1/64" range - it's just halfway to halfway. And with a well-zeroed chopsaw these tolerances are really easy to hit. You can't be marking cuts with a Sharpie, though. The same applies to loft/lie, especially if you're using something precise like a Golf Instruments gauge to measure and just using your bending machine to bend. All this takes a TON of time, though, and few players will honestly save a single shot per month thereby. People do like first-rate work for its own sake though, and accurate assembly bespeaks care in the whole fitting process, so it's definitely worth something. As a separate issue, as a clubmaker it's worth something to ME to know that what goes out the door is the best I can do.



    Certain custom features are more art than science, and THOSE are the ones which save strokes even though they're almost impossible to quantify. Really good relief/leading edge/camber work on a SW can be worth more than a shot per ROUND for a player who doesn't hit a lot of GiR. The same applies to FWs but to a lesser degree, because they're used less. Still, how many players have anything at all done to the leading edge of their 5w or 18° hybrid?..
    Cobra Fly-Z/Matrix Ozik F6M2
    Cally XHP 15°/Altus or 3Deep/Striper H2
    Cally XHP 18°/Altus hb
    Cally XHP23/Altus hb or Cally X-Prototype 24°/Program 95
    6-GW Cobra Forged One Length on flighted Matrix Program 95
    Scratch D/D wedges
    Bettinardi QB3
  • Think293Think293 Members Posts: 97
    I know clubmakers/fitters have to differentiate their products from the major OEM clubs you can get from ****'s at a lower price. I even agree when they say that a well fit set of clubs will help golfers of all abilities. With that being said, I think they greatly overstate the importance of all of the minutiae. It's easy to buy into because we love having something to blame for a poor shot, but realistically we know better. The lazy argument is that a PGA tour pro could hit any set of clubs better than you, but let's take it a step farther.



    I have a friend who usually beats me by 3 or 4 strokes. Let's say he shows up to the course with his lie angles 1.5 off of optimal and I have all of mine adjusted to within 0.01 degrees of optimal. Do any of us really think that difference is going to turn the tables? Would you put money on me just because his lie angles are a little off?



    Even the best players wouldn't tell you, "I hit my 6 iron 184 yards, never more than 185.3 and never less than 182.3". That's the kind of precision we're talking about when we get down to 0.25 degrees of loft. If you want to get worked up over it because it is fun for you, you'll get no argument from me. But if you think your lie angles being slightly off matters to the score you card, you're fooling yourself.



    - Jordan
  • zeeb245zeeb245 Members Posts: 1
    Driver- $800.00

    3 to PW- $2000.00

    Wedges- $900.00



    I am frequently counseled that the the some of the specs and/or its accuracy are not needed. In my limited experience, I have only come across one clubfitter who had the equipment, passion and time to do close to what is requested. That was few years ago before we moved out of state.
  • CheckJVCheckJV Male Model Advanced Members Posts: 2,085 ✭✭
    Probably only about $10 per club. Sorry if this seems low but it would be the max I would pay and I think I'm an average consumer.
  • cxxcxx Advanced Members Posts: 3,028 ✭✭
    I'm a little curious about what you have in mind Tom. Are you planning different manufacturing techniques to provide the quality without the labor? Trading off component tolerances against cost?
  • TomWishonTomWishon Sponsors Posts: 3,653 ✭✭
    edited November 2013
    cxx wrote:


    I'm a little curious about what you have in mind Tom. Are you planning different manufacturing techniques to provide the quality without the labor? Trading off component tolerances against cost?




    No commercial interest in this since I know full well what it would cost to deliver nearly perfect specs. Just my curiosity based on numerous posts over the past many months from golfers who either complain that the specs of their clubs are not tight enough or posts from golfers who worry about whether the clubs they are going to buy will be accurate enough for their specs, coupled with me knowing full well what the usual tolerances are and the fact that companies make mistakes, I was just curious to know that since making much tighter specs would have to cost more, would golfers value this accuracy enough to pay more for it.



    What was interesting to me from some of the posts was the fact that several golfers questioned if they really needed tighter specs. Either the golfers who complain about specs needing to be tighter are not offering their opinion here or they think the industry should just do better than +/-1 degree within the prices golfers pay for clubs these days. Or these "it wouldn't matter" opinions came from golfers who don't think they are good enough for anything better than the present range of spec accuracy matters for their game.



    Fact is, the tolerances from the better companies are as good as they can be within the current price points of clubs along the chain of supply. On top of that most clubhead production factories will refuse to produce to +/-1/2* no matter if the golf companies paid them more to do it because it would disrupt their normal production volume too much. Tighter specs certainly can be delivered to golfers, but it would have to be done by whoever builds the clubs, and would require a fairly significant cost increase to do it. So I was just curious to hear if many golfers felt there was a value to that.



    TOM

  • PreppySlapCutPreppySlapCut This is just babytown frolics... Advanced Members Posts: 6,342 ✭✭
    The work I watched the guys at Cool Clubs do was impressive. I don't imagine that attention to detail and build quality gets much (if any) better than that.



    This is the reason that I rib and install my own grips, weigh and bend my own irons, and keep lead tape handy. I don't have to pay for much anymore. If I did, they'd be coming from Mark Timms' and crew.
    Ping G400 MAX 9* w/ Tour 65 (S)
    Ping G 14.5* & 19.5* w/ Tour 80 (X)
    Ping G30 22* w/ Accra Kuchar Proto 85 (X)
    Ping i210 5-PW w/ Aldila RIP 115 (S)
    Ping Glide 2.0 50*, 55*, 60* w/ Aldila RIP 115 (S)
    Scotty Cameron Toolbox
Sign In or Register to comment.