College basketball

Great kickoff to the season last night with four of the five top ranked teams in action.

But is anyone else concerned with how long it's going to take for the games to adjust to the way games are supposed to be called this year?

While I'm very much on board with cutting down on all the contact, it looks like they might be going overboard with how tight they aepre calling games. Games are going to take forever to play and turn into free throw shooting contests.

[quote name='deadsolid...shank' timestamp='1384353455' post='8142370']
Great kickoff to the season last night with four of the five top ranked teams in action.

But is anyone else concerned with how long it's going to take for the games to adjust to the way games are supposed to be called this year?

While I'm very much on board with cutting down on all the contact, it looks like they might be going overboard with how tight they aepre calling games. Games are going to take forever to play and turn into free throw shooting contests.
[/quote]

Its crazy. I was at the Ohio State v. Ohio (the only time I will openly root against Ohio State as Ohio is my alma matter) game last night and it was insane. Ohio fouled out I think 5 players, Ohio State took like 43 FTs. The final 5-6 minutes of game time took nearly an hour. It's crazy. The good thing was the Bobcats, who came out of the gates ice cold and looked like they didn't belong in the same gym as the Bucks, settled down, went on their typical run and got the game back to within 5 pts with about 6 minutes left before finally falling by 10.

I think this year we may be in for a rough transition until teams adjust. It seemed the minute a player touches another player it's a foul. It really killed any type of offensive flow (for both teams by the way, not saying it was called one way or the other) and made the game PAINFUL to watch. I think if we give it a year or two it's going to lead to much better, higher quality game with more offensive flow, athleticism and scoring. Unfortunately, I think it's going to make it a lot more challenging for mid majors to pull off the upset. Typically they do they by slowing the game down, forcing the more athletic team to play a half court offense and then getting hot from 3. It's going to be very hard for a less athletic team to slow the game down like that. We may not see a George Mason, VCU, Wichita St or the likes make a big run in the tourney like that again for a number of years.

[quote name='SilverBullets' timestamp='1384353929' post='8142414']
[quote name='deadsolid...shank' timestamp='1384353455' post='8142370']
Great kickoff to the season last night with four of the five top ranked teams in action.

But is anyone else concerned with how long it's going to take for the games to adjust to the way games are supposed to be called this year?

While I'm very much on board with cutting down on all the contact, it looks like they might be going overboard with how tight they aepre calling games. Games are going to take forever to play and turn into free throw shooting contests.
[/quote]

Its crazy. I was at the Ohio State v. Ohio (the only time I will openly root against Ohio State as Ohio is my alma matter) game last night and it was insane. Ohio fouled out I think 5 players, Ohio State took like 43 FTs. The final 5-6 minutes of game time took nearly an hour. It's crazy. The good thing was the Bobcats, who came out of the gates ice cold and looked like they didn't belong in the same gym as the Bucks, settled down, went on their typical run and got the game back to within 5 pts with about 6 minutes left before finally falling by 10.

I think this year we may be in for a rough transition until teams adjust. It seemed the minute a player touches another player it's a foul. It really killed any type of offensive flow (for both teams by the way, not saying it was called one way or the other) and made the game PAINFUL to watch. I think if we give it a year or two it's going to lead to much better, higher quality game with more offensive flow, athleticism and scoring. Unfortunately, I think it's going to make it a lot more challenging for mid majors to pull off the upset. Typically they do they by slowing the game down, forcing the more athletic team to play a half court offense and then getting hot from 3. It's going to be very hard for a less athletic team to slow the game down like that. We may not see a George Mason, VCU, Wichita St or the likes make a big run in the tourney like that again for a number of years.
[/quote]

It may hurt the smaller schools also by way of depth. I think you can figure you're probably going to have two or three starters a game in early foul trouble ( and probably fouling out) , teams that are not nine or ten deep may be in trouble late in games.

Last night Dicky V was advocating for college ball to go to six fouls before disqualification.

They'll adjust - there will be some growing pains initially, but in the end it's a good move for college basketball. Offense in college basketball has been putrid the past decade + and they need to liven the game up a bit. The excuse has been that "BUT, college teams actually play defense!" as opposed to the pros (says the old, white, 67 yr old alumnist). Totally not true. The game is was twice as more physical than when my dad played in college, to when I did, now it's even more physical over a decade later.

[quote name='somaplr' timestamp='1384356656' post='8142666']
They'll adjust - there will be some growing pains initially, but in the end it's a good move for college basketball. Offense in college basketball has been putrid the past decade + and they need to liven the game up a bit. The excuse has been that "BUT, college teams actually play defense!" as opposed to the pros (says the old, white, 67 yr old alumnist). Totally not true. The game is was twice as more physical than when my dad played in college, to when I did, now it's even more physical over a decade later.
[/quote]

I agree with how physical it's gotten over the years. I've had an idea for several years. I would like to see the lane widened just to create more interior space, give guys some space inside to move inside without pin balling off big bodies.

You're right, they will adjust, but there are going to be some painful games to watch for a while.

It's funny how 20 years ago, with a 45 second shot clock, teams could still score 100 points in a game with not quite semi-regularity, but enough that it wasn't a shocker when it happened. Now, not so much, even with the shorter shot clock. While a greater emphasis on defense does exist these days, guys didn't all of a sudden become that much worse. Being able to mug guys had something to do with it.

What I don't understand was the need to change the rule on the charge. The rule was fine, I thought, refs just didn't enforce it. The defender should be able to get set and claim a position, and needing to be there before the guy left the ground I thought was right. If a guy drives and you're defending tightly, you can beat him to the spot by a split second, and get the charge call. Why do you need to be there sooooo much more ahead of him on a drive? The problem was the refs simply giving the guy who fell down the call, even though he would get in well after the player was airborne.

I'm not sure how it will play out yet, but these changes may actually bring back to the basket low-post play back to the game.

I agree with the charges and blocks, but that was somehow negated last night when the refs blew the whistle EVERY single time a post pass was thrown and the defender was touching the offensive player with his hand. Totally ruined the flow of the game and made each game a FT competition.

The games last night were brutal to watch down the stretch.

With that being said, those 3 freshman were pretty phenomenal last night. Randle took over in the 2nd half, Parker showed great athleticism and ability to stretch the defense and Wiggins is just an exceptional athlete. What a fun season this is going to be!

Should clarify my earlier statement about the charges. If you're defending one-on-one out on the wing, etc.,and move your feet and get there a split second before he turns into you, that's a charge. Why so much more leeway when he is going up to the hoop for a shot?

If be curious if anyone did a poll what was prefers, college bball vs NBA. For most of my life is been all college and watched very little NBA. I think it's staying to turn. Not really anything to do with what record the local team has, just in general if much rather now watch a good NBA match up than college. March madness is still hard to beat, but NBA has definitely grown on me last few years.

I hate the new rule change. It pains me to watch a basketball game and see the ticky tac hand check being called a foul almost every time it happens. Let the guys play some. Let them bang. I agree it doesnt need to be a fist fight but I like to see some contact. With that being said, the players will adjust eventually. Like they said last night, Cal was blowing the whistle every time someone did that in practice just to get them used to what will happen in games.

Im obviously a Duke fan so I watched most of the game last night. I missed about the final ten minutes of the game so I was shocked to go to sleep with Duke up 5 and see them get beat 11. But Duke seems to win the big game early on and falter in the tourney. So hopefully this will be an opposite trend of that. Parker is a beast. I would love to have him stay 4 years although I think he is done after this year. Hood was a great add. Watched him play some in high school. He was a 6'8" PG in high school though.

College Bball is in a good place this year. I cant see how Kentucky is ranked so high to begin with though. Yea you can say what you want about their recruiting class but they had a great class last year and look what happened. Yes Noel was hurt but no way should Kentucky have not been in the tournament even without him. Looking forward to this year though.

I'm a Duke fan too Blaird, and I see good things for them this year. Hood is really talented but looks to me like he is a little quick on the trigger, the guy I really like is Jefferson, really athletic for a big guy. Shot selection is still a little questionable.

[quote name='deadsolid...shank' timestamp='1384364648' post='8143414']
I'm a Duke fan too Blaird, and I see good things for them this year. Hood is really talented but looks to me like he is a little quick on the trigger, the guy I really like is Jefferson, really athletic for a big guy. Shot selection is still a little questionable.
[/quote]

Hood will be fine. I like that he can create his own shot and doesnt have to run off a bunch of screens to get a look. I LOVE what I have seen from Jefferson so far. We dont have the big man presence like we had in the past (Plumlees and Zoubek). So he will need to step and score from the post and guard some big men. The younger Plumlee has been disappointing so far. Thought he would have been better. And Im really hoping Matt Jones can step up. He was highly ranked coming out of high school.

[quote name='blaird' timestamp='1384365040' post='8143452']
[quote name='deadsolid...shank' timestamp='1384364648' post='8143414']
I'm a Duke fan too Blaird, and I see good things for them this year. Hood is really talented but looks to me like he is a little quick on the trigger, the guy I really like is Jefferson, really athletic for a big guy. Shot selection is still a little questionable.
[/quote]

Hood will be fine. I like that he can create his own shot and doesnt have to run off a bunch of screens to get a look. I LOVE what I have seen from Jefferson so far. We dont have the big man presence like we had in the past (Plumlees and Zoubek). So he will need to step and score from the post and guard some big men. The younger Plumlee has been disappointing so far. Thought he would have been better. And Im really hoping Matt Jones can step up. He was highly ranked coming out of high school.
[/quote]

I wondered about the younger Plumlee, I thought last year I heard he was going to be the best one of the brothers.

Duke fan here too, good game last night. thought they could pull off the win but looking forward to the season and seeing Parker really develop more. I wish he would stay more than 1 year but I doubt it.

Duke's big flaw this year is that they can't protect the middle. It's pretty glaring. Grantland picked up on it as well.

[quote name='somaplr' timestamp='1384365727' post='8143530']
Duke's big flaw this year is that they can't protect the middle. It's pretty glaring. Grantland picked up on it as well.
[/quote]

That seems to be a problem just about every year. They will find a way to mask it, maybe step in the lanes and get a few steals or something along that line. From what I saw, Parker did a good job of this last night. I dont know if he can guard a true post player but he may be able to get a couple steals and some transition points. Coach K will find a way to deal with this as best he can but I agree it is a problem that needs attention. I would love to see them get a good true post player. Something like a Zeller or Hansborough. Plumlee did a good job last year and it was much improved from the years before but I would love to see Duke have a big body in the middle to guard, rebound, and put up 18 points a game.

Duke is Duke. They play hard and disciplined basketball. They also live and die by the 3. If they are hot I dont think there is another team in the country that can keep up with them. If they are ice cold, which happens a few games every year, then just about anyone can beat them.

[quote name='deadsolid...shank' timestamp='1384365246' post='8143478']
[quote name='blaird' timestamp='1384365040' post='8143452']
[quote name='deadsolid...shank' timestamp='1384364648' post='8143414']
I'm a Duke fan too Blaird, and I see good things for them this year. Hood is really talented but looks to me like he is a little quick on the trigger, the guy I really like is Jefferson, really athletic for a big guy. Shot selection is still a little questionable.
[/quote]

Hood will be fine. I like that he can create his own shot and doesnt have to run off a bunch of screens to get a look. I LOVE what I have seen from Jefferson so far. We dont have the big man presence like we had in the past (Plumlees and Zoubek). So he will need to step and score from the post and guard some big men. The younger Plumlee has been disappointing so far. Thought he would have been better. And Im really hoping Matt Jones can step up. He was highly ranked coming out of high school.
[/quote]

I wondered about the younger Plumlee, I thought last year I heard he was going to be the best one of the brothers.
[/quote]

They kept saying that during his redshirt year. I watched him play a little last year and did not think he was great. He may turn out to be a defensive big man just because of his size but they have a lot of work to do to turn him into a big man that can produce offensively.

They said Wojo is no longer working with the big men. I thought he did a good job the last year with Zoubek and last year with Plumlee. Kind of wish Coach K would have kept him with the big men instead of moving him to the guards.

[quote name='blaird' timestamp='1384367955' post='8143750']
[quote name='somaplr' timestamp='1384365727' post='8143530']
Duke's big flaw this year is that they can't protect the middle. It's pretty glaring. Grantland picked up on it as well.
[/quote]

That seems to be a problem just about every year. They will find a way to mask it, maybe step in the lanes and get a few steals or something along that line. From what I saw, Parker did a good job of this last night. I dont know if he can guard a true post player but he may be able to get a couple steals and some transition points. Coach K will find a way to deal with this as best he can but I agree it is a problem that needs attention. I would love to see them get a good true post player. Something like a Zeller or Hansborough. Plumlee did a good job last year and it was much improved from the years before but I would love to see Duke have a big body in the middle to guard, rebound, and put up 18 points a game.

Duke is Duke. They play hard and disciplined basketball. They also live and die by the 3. If they are hot I dont think there is another team in the country that can keep up with them. If they are ice cold, which happens a few games every year, then just about anyone can beat them.
[/quote]

Problem is though is that Parker may be there only consistent deep threat. They only shot about a dozen 3's last night I believe.

[quote name='Yanki01' timestamp='1384365272' post='8143484']
Duke fan here too, good game last night. thought they could pull off the win but looking forward to the season and seeing Parker really develop more. I wish he would stay more than 1 year but I doubt it.
[/quote]

Yea, there is no shot of him, randle, or wiggins even thinking about staying. IMO, parker already has the skillset to compete in the league, but his size and where he fits will be the question mark.

[quote name='blaird' timestamp='1384364042' post='8143350']
I hate the new rule change. It pains me to watch a basketball game and see the ticky tac hand check being called a foul almost every time it happens. Let the guys play some. Let them bang. I agree it doesnt need to be a fist fight but I like to see some contact. With that being said, the players will adjust eventually. Like they said last night, Cal was blowing the whistle every time someone did that in practice just to get them used to what will happen in games.

Im obviously a Duke fan so I watched most of the game last night. I missed about the final ten minutes of the game so I was shocked to go to sleep with Duke up 5 and see them get beat 11. But Duke seems to win the big game early on and falter in the tourney. So hopefully this will be an opposite trend of that. Parker is a beast. I would love to have him stay 4 years although I think he is done after this year. Hood was a great add. Watched him play some in high school. He was a 6'8" PG in high school though.

College Bball is in a good place this year. I cant see how Kentucky is ranked so high to begin with though. Yea you can say what you want about their recruiting class but they had a great class last year and look what happened. Yes Noel was hurt but no way should Kentucky have not been in the tournament even without him. Looking forward to this year though.
[/quote]

I don't think we've had much discussion, and from what I can see you are more level headed than many I have come across, so this may be unfair that your post triggers this response from me, but I have to say it: why does it not surprise me a Duke fan would not like the new rules?

I couldn't stay up so late so I got to see more Parker than Wiggins(who I really wanted to see), but man the athleticism of these guys is unreal. And they're players, not just guys who can run and jump. Parker can pop and rise for his shot as quickly as anyone I can remember. Although sounds like Wiggins had his way once Self listened to him and put him on Parker(didn't see the second half--just what I read).

[quote name='Bluefan75' timestamp='1384436745' post='8147584']
[quote name='blaird' timestamp='1384364042' post='8143350']
I hate the new rule change. It pains me to watch a basketball game and see the ticky tac hand check being called a foul almost every time it happens. Let the guys play some. Let them bang. I agree it doesnt need to be a fist fight but I like to see some contact. With that being said, the players will adjust eventually. Like they said last night, Cal was blowing the whistle every time someone did that in practice just to get them used to what will happen in games.

Im obviously a Duke fan so I watched most of the game last night. I missed about the final ten minutes of the game so I was shocked to go to sleep with Duke up 5 and see them get beat 11. But Duke seems to win the big game early on and falter in the tourney. So hopefully this will be an opposite trend of that. Parker is a beast. I would love to have him stay 4 years although I think he is done after this year. Hood was a great add. Watched him play some in high school. He was a 6'8" PG in high school though.

College Bball is in a good place this year. I cant see how Kentucky is ranked so high to begin with though. Yea you can say what you want about their recruiting class but they had a great class last year and look what happened. Yes Noel was hurt but no way should Kentucky have not been in the tournament even without him. Looking forward to this year though.
[/quote]

I don't think we've had much discussion, and from what I can see you are more level headed than many I have come across, so this may be unfair that your post triggers this response from me, but I have to say it: why does it not surprise me a Duke fan would not like the new rules?

I couldn't stay up so late so I got to see more Parker than Wiggins(who I really wanted to see), but man the athleticism of these guys is unreal. And they're players, not just guys who can run and jump. Parker can pop and rise for his shot as quickly as anyone I can remember. Although sounds like Wiggins had his way once Self listened to him and put him on Parker(didn't see the second half--just what I read).
[/quote]

I don't think it's so much that he's a Duke fan. Its (hopefully) as bad now as it will be all season though. We can hope that the players get used to it and the number of whistles will be cut down dramatically because as it stands right now, it's almost unbearable to watch. The UK/MSU game took a good 2.5 hours to complete. When was the last time a CBB game that didn't go into OT took 2.5 hours to finish? The Duke game went almost until midnight here (CST) and these games started at 6:30.

I'm okay with the way they're calling it, I just hope the players adjust sooner rather than later.

[quote name='baseballfrk8998' timestamp='1384439095' post='8147728']
[quote name='Bluefan75' timestamp='1384436745' post='8147584']
[quote name='blaird' timestamp='1384364042' post='8143350']
I hate the new rule change. It pains me to watch a basketball game and see the ticky tac hand check being called a foul almost every time it happens. Let the guys play some. Let them bang. I agree it doesnt need to be a fist fight but I like to see some contact. With that being said, the players will adjust eventually. Like they said last night, Cal was blowing the whistle every time someone did that in practice just to get them used to what will happen in games.

Im obviously a Duke fan so I watched most of the game last night. I missed about the final ten minutes of the game so I was shocked to go to sleep with Duke up 5 and see them get beat 11. But Duke seems to win the big game early on and falter in the tourney. So hopefully this will be an opposite trend of that. Parker is a beast. I would love to have him stay 4 years although I think he is done after this year. Hood was a great add. Watched him play some in high school. He was a 6'8" PG in high school though.

College Bball is in a good place this year. I cant see how Kentucky is ranked so high to begin with though. Yea you can say what you want about their recruiting class but they had a great class last year and look what happened. Yes Noel was hurt but no way should Kentucky have not been in the tournament even without him. Looking forward to this year though.
[/quote]

I don't think we've had much discussion, and from what I can see you are more level headed than many I have come across, so this may be unfair that your post triggers this response from me, but I have to say it: why does it not surprise me a Duke fan would not like the new rules?

I couldn't stay up so late so I got to see more Parker than Wiggins(who I really wanted to see), but man the athleticism of these guys is unreal. And they're players, not just guys who can run and jump. Parker can pop and rise for his shot as quickly as anyone I can remember. Although sounds like Wiggins had his way once Self listened to him and put him on Parker(didn't see the second half--just what I read).
[/quote]

I don't think it's so much that he's a Duke fan. Its (hopefully) as bad now as it will be all season though. We can hope that the players get used to it and the number of whistles will be cut down dramatically because as it stands right now, it's almost unbearable to watch. The UK/MSU game took a good 2.5 hours to complete. When was the last time a CBB game that didn't go into OT took 2.5 hours to finish? The Duke game went almost until midnight here (CST) and these games started at 6:30.

I'm okay with the way they're calling it, I just hope the players adjust sooner rather than later.
[/quote]

Well considering Duke's m.o. on defense, calling fouls for this stuff would be a really bad thing for them, hence the comment. I even read somewhere there is a chance that with the new rules, if ever there's a tackle at midcourt by a Duke player on an opponent like the one in the Final Four against Maryland some years ago, it might actually get called!

The new rules seem to really be showcasing here lately.

but, Go Cards! Defending Champs!

[quote name='Bluefan75' timestamp='1384436745' post='8147584']
[quote name='blaird' timestamp='1384364042' post='8143350']
I hate the new rule change. It pains me to watch a basketball game and see the ticky tac hand check being called a foul almost every time it happens. Let the guys play some. Let them bang. I agree it doesnt need to be a fist fight but I like to see some contact. With that being said, the players will adjust eventually. Like they said last night, Cal was blowing the whistle every time someone did that in practice just to get them used to what will happen in games.

Im obviously a Duke fan so I watched most of the game last night. I missed about the final ten minutes of the game so I was shocked to go to sleep with Duke up 5 and see them get beat 11. But Duke seems to win the big game early on and falter in the tourney. So hopefully this will be an opposite trend of that. Parker is a beast. I would love to have him stay 4 years although I think he is done after this year. Hood was a great add. Watched him play some in high school. He was a 6'8" PG in high school though.

College Bball is in a good place this year. I cant see how Kentucky is ranked so high to begin with though. Yea you can say what you want about their recruiting class but they had a great class last year and look what happened. Yes Noel was hurt but no way should Kentucky have not been in the tournament even without him. Looking forward to this year though.
[/quote]

I don't think we've had much discussion, and from what I can see you are more level headed than many I have come across, so this may be unfair that your post triggers this response from me, but I have to say it: why does it not surprise me a Duke fan would not like the new rules?

I couldn't stay up so late so I got to see more Parker than Wiggins(who I really wanted to see), but man the athleticism of these guys is unreal. And they're players, not just guys who can run and jump. Parker can pop and rise for his shot as quickly as anyone I can remember. Although sounds like Wiggins had his way once Self listened to him and put him on Parker(didn't see the second half--just what I read).
[/quote]

HAHA thats fair enough. My best friend is a UNC fan and we get together every year to watch the two games they play against each other. We both have the same opinion on the fouls. We just like to see a good tough game and not one where the star player(s) from each team get in foul trouble early with ticky tac fouls. I will even moan and groan when a weak foul is called against a UNC player. Just let the guys play.

In the post there is supposed to be some contact. I dont like that when the ball is thrown to the post and the defender puts his hand on the back, and a foul is called. You could really see it in the Kentucky game. A foul was called early and the Kentucky guy (think it was Randle) looked confused like he didnt do anything. The very next MI State possession you could see him put his hand on the guy then pull it back off immediately.

Technically in the post there shouldn't be contact. I'm dating myself here, but when you front or deny a post player there was supposed to be space between yourself and the offensive player. By having no body on body contact it prevented the low post wrestling matches that have become the norm over the last 20 years.

I attribute much of the change to the Detroit Pistonss of the late 80's, early 90's. Rick Mahorn and Bill Lambier (sp) used to just physically abuse Bird, Parish, and McHale otf the Celtics.

I don't what was meant by it affecting Duke due to their M.O. on defense. I see the the change in the way the block/charge call is called affecting them more than other teams due to their propensity for taking charges.

[quote name='deadsolid...shank' timestamp='1384451155' post='8148568']
Technically in the post there shouldn't be contact. I'm dating myself here, but when you front or deny a post player there was supposed to be space between yourself and the offensive player. By having no body on body contact it prevented the low post wrestling matches that have become the norm over the last 20 years.

I attribute much of the change to the Detroit Pistonss of the late 80's, early 90's. Rick Mahorn and Bill Lambier (sp) used to just physically abuse Bird, Parish, and McHale otf the Celtics.

I don't what was meant by it affecting Duke due to their M.O. on defense. I see the the change in the way the block/charge call is called affecting them more than other teams due to their propensity for taking charges.
[/quote]

He doesn't like Duke and he was attempting to take a jab at them. Nothing more, nothing less.

The new rules are being enforced much more than the new DB rules in the NFL. I was particularly interested to see how they would be applied to VCU, seeing that they relentlessly hack, mug, hand check with their "Havoc" similar to Seattle DBs....looks like in their UVA game that the refs were actually on top of them.

so if you have the ball at the top of the key, with the defense being unable to hold their ground, couldn't the offensive player just back there way down under the basket every time. at some point you have to allow the defense to actually play defense.

if cbb wants to better the game with more offense how about a shot clock under 30 secs. 35 seconds is stupid in todays game. nba is 24, i think 30 max in the cbb would be of benefit, ideally 28 secs.

[quote name='baseballfrk8998' timestamp='1384453734' post='8148762']
[quote name='deadsolid...shank' timestamp='1384451155' post='8148568']
Technically in the post there shouldn't be contact. I'm dating myself here, but when you front or deny a post player there was supposed to be space between yourself and the offensive player. By having no body on body contact it prevented the low post wrestling matches that have become the norm over the last 20 years.

I attribute much of the change to the Detroit Pistonss of the late 80's, early 90's. Rick Mahorn and Bill Lambier (sp) used to just physically abuse Bird, Parish, and McHale otf the Celtics.

I don't what was meant by it affecting Duke due to their M.O. on defense. I see the the change in the way the block/charge call is called affecting them more than other teams due to their propensity for taking charges.
[/quote]

He doesn't like Duke and he was attempting to take a jab at them. Nothing more, nothing less.
[/quote]

Unless you've been watching a different team than I have, uh, no. The previous poster is correct about the charges, but that's not the only impact. They're far from the only team that was doing it, but still, they were doing it.