Hogan hands around the cookies to take away.

 Pinsplitter59 ·  
Pinsplitter59Pinsplitter59 Members  976WRX Points: 3Posts: 976 Golden Tee
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This thing got my attention a few years ago but i was never able to do it.

When left arm is parallel to ground on take-away (H2) Hogan's, Snead's, Z. Johnson's and almost Mike Dunaway's hands are behind the tip of the right shoulder. Duffner is next nearest.

I guess people call it taking it inside and is considered naughty. Been thinking about it and it seems many things can prevent you getting this position.

Some are:

- The 1 piece take-away.

- Keep hands and club in front of body.

- Believe in the "Arm Swing Illusion".

- Use a Swing Shirt.

- Swing Up and Down.

- Think that the left arm goes Up.

- Think that the left arm and right shoulder are connected.

Apologies to Stenson on the last one, I have been experimenting with that one and it has a lot of good things about it but i haven't been able to find it comfortable or controllable.

What makes it happen?:

Ummmm not sure really, but its like your left arm travels flatter and more quickly around than your shoulders in the take-away, so they don't really move together at all.

An odd thing happens when you do this, your right arm can "set" in a structured position that makes it really much easier to just hit the ball.

All that talk elsewhere about dropping, dumping,slotting, laying off etc. drives me nuts because it makes no sense to me, and i can't do it, and its so difficult to do, and it shouldn't be necessary IMHO.

All you really need is your hands back nice and low where they started in order to hit the ball well without having to do athletically challenging body contortions.

Anyone found out how to do it?

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  • tembolo1284tembolo1284 Boom Boom Banned  20715WRX Points: 1Handicap: BeefPosts: 20,715 Titanium Tees
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    Maybe turning your left arm so the hand is facing more toward the floor on the backswing? A little rotation will flatten that sucker out.
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  • ej002ej002 Unregistered  5129WRX Points: 3Posts: 5,129 Titanium Tees
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    Feels closed going back - lots of hinging.

    Perp to your spine - need waist bend.
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  • tembolo1284tembolo1284 Boom Boom Banned  20715WRX Points: 1Handicap: BeefPosts: 20,715 Titanium Tees
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    EJ what feels closed going back equals lots of hinging?
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  • Pinsplitter59Pinsplitter59 Members  976WRX Points: 3Posts: 976 Golden Tee
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    Answering my own question. I suppose logically the left arm has to go very much across the chest which means the right arm has to quickly fold from the elbow in a similar across direction so the right forearm is getting to a more vertical position.

    Definitely not a one-piece take-away with a straight right arm.
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  • moehoganmoehogan Members  1107WRX Points: 164Posts: 1,107 Platinum Tees
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    Answering my own question. I suppose logically the left arm has to go very much across the chest which means the right arm has to quickly fold from the elbow in a similar across direction so the right forearm is getting to a more vertical position.

    Definitely not a one-piece take-away with a straight right arm.




    Left arm cannot fan excessively and go so deep that it denies the right shoulder the room to externally rotate in the 2nd half of the BS. Some right arm extension and resistance to fanning can certainly help. The ESR, as the right arm folds, is what produces the vertical right forearm at the top. It's like performing a large reverse arm circle with the right arm and shoulder!
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  • tembolo1284tembolo1284 Boom Boom Banned  20715WRX Points: 1Handicap: BeefPosts: 20,715 Titanium Tees
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    Pin what do you feel is accomplished with this move/look?
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  • Pinsplitter59Pinsplitter59 Members  976WRX Points: 3Posts: 976 Golden Tee
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    Picking up my own old thread.

    As Connie Francis sang in Where the Boys Are.

    "Where the hands are, a good hit waits for me

    A flashing face, a warm embrace, two arms to hold me tenderly....."

    Been looking over stuff and finding Sam Snead the best to look at because he is the most "extreme" of the bunch,

    just looking at the pic as above you can feel what you need to do.

    I think you need to really concentrate on where your hands go and forget about shoulder turn, except that your chest has to immediately face to the rear without going to the rear.

    My struggle is to get the hands really "inside" after years of other junk take-aways.

    Some success so far by thinking ''under-up-behind' kinda thing, as if ur trying ti hit ur right hip with your hands,

    Many similarities with Martin Ayers (martinez).

    Doing this makes setting a pitch right arm very easy.

    Feeling you able to directly hit the ball with your right hand is the best thing i reckon.

    Maybe more later if it works, or back in my dark hole if it fails.
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  • tembolo1284tembolo1284 Boom Boom Banned  20715WRX Points: 1Handicap: BeefPosts: 20,715 Titanium Tees
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    you had me at, "Many similarities with Martin Ayers."



    I never understood his twirl thing.
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  • JackieTreehornJackieTreehorn Members  199WRX Points: 0Posts: 199
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    My struggle is to get the hands really "inside" after years of other junk take-aways.

    Some success so far by thinking ''under-up-behind' kinda thing, as if ur trying ti hit ur right hip with your hands,

    Many similarities with Martin Ayers (martinez).

    Doing this makes setting a pitch right arm very easy.

    Feeling you able to directly hit the ball with your right hand is the best thing i reckon.

    Maybe more later if it works, or back in my dark hole if it fails.




    I am struggling with exact same issue lately (I am attempting Ayers' backswing FYI). I am trying to figure out the first move. My question is the muscle action to start the swing. In the past I have had very good results doing the "pull the shaft out of the ground" (in an Ayers video, he instructs a guy to yank a shaft stuck in the ground (angled like a headless club at address) out of the ground to simulate a backswing). But this seems off to me, since I think it is basically the dreaded lawnmower move, and I always see Ayers describe that the R elbow works DOWN in his thread here. This "shaft pull move" certainly frees up the R elbow to get into pitch though.



    I think the missing piece from my motion is that the L shoulder+L ribs need to feel almost immobile (resistance in his thread). Still working on the exact motion though...either pull shaft out of ground feel or the very low left hand to pocket route...lots of address torques and pieces to sort out.
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  • Pinsplitter59Pinsplitter59 Members  976WRX Points: 3Posts: 976 Golden Tee
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    Yeah, the first move is very important and hard to find the one that works for you.

    Its not directly around. Its like a straight line but hands go across the right thigh/foot, that direction.

    Martinez shows a more square face take-away (no rotation), whereas , as said above, Hogan starts opening the club face early.

    Pulling your hands under there gives you automatic shoulder tilt, see how Snead does it.

    The important thing is i think that the right arm does not "chicken wing" (lawnmower thing).

    Hogan doesn't have to worry because he is rotating left arm over early, i think.

    With Martinez's move you need to then establish the "crossbow" where the left arm rotates over and feels like its sitting on top of the right arm.

    Two different ways to skin a rabbit.

    Left side resistance can be a help if you tend to sway your chest area back, but if you do more of a Snead immediate behind move you stay centred easily, but also stretching the right shoulder away from the left does add power.

    Gary Edwin (Aus pro teacher) also is all about left side stable and arms moving behind.

    Look for Martinez's vid where describes pulling the hands directly in to hit the "wall" (imaginary wall parallel to target line in line with heels approx.) so the hands and shaft all hit the wall together, much clearer than the pull the shaft idea.

    So many similarities in all these "different" styles.

    But certainly different to the nowadays conventional moves that put the arms away and around the body instead of under the body.

    Its in there somewhere.!
    Posted:
  • ej002ej002 Unregistered  5129WRX Points: 3Posts: 5,129 Titanium Tees
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    ej002 wrote:


    Feels closed going back - lots of hinging.

    Perp to your spine - need waist bend.




    Guess my post didnt come through the phone. . . to go along with the other thread, he does not fan it open in the take away. He would suck it way under then, he takes it back right on eblow plane, feels like right wrist just bowes back (compared to fanning, it feels shuttish to me), then at like P3 the whole triangle opens, b/c it has too. He looks so open at the top b/c his stupid weak grip + some cuppage.
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  • ej002ej002 Unregistered  5129WRX Points: 3Posts: 5,129 Titanium Tees
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    Yeah, the first move is very important and hard to find the one that works for you.

    Its not directly around. Its like a straight line but hands go across the right thigh/foot, that direction.

    Martinez shows a more square face take-away (no rotation), whereas , as said above, Hogan starts opening the club face early.

    Pulling your hands under there gives you automatic shoulder tilt, see how Snead does it.

    The important thing is i think that the right arm does not "chicken wing" (lawnmower thing).

    Hogan doesn't have to worry because he is rotating left arm over early, i think.

    With Martinez's move you need to then establish the "crossbow" where the left arm rotates over and feels like its sitting on top of the right arm.

    Two different ways to skin a rabbit.

    Left side resistance can be a help if you tend to sway your chest area back, but if you do more of a Snead immediate behind move you stay centred easily, but also stretching the right shoulder away from the left does add power.

    Gary Edwin (Aus pro teacher) also is all about left side stable and arms moving behind.

    Look for Martinez's vid where describes pulling the hands directly in to hit the "wall" (imaginary wall parallel to target line in line with heels approx.) so the hands and shaft all hit the wall together, much clearer than the pull the shaft idea.

    So many similarities in all these "different" styles.

    But certainly different to the nowadays conventional moves that put the arms away and around the body instead of under the body.

    Its in there somewhere.!




    Actually Martin would try to shut the face (to the arc) / lay it back / cup the LEFT wrist - as his first move off the ball. Puts the left wrist in motion clockwise, so the on the way downswing it starts to bow... engenious theory really, but I couldn't get it right. Need a LOT of trust, which I don't have. Eastern Philosophies run through that guy...



    ... also on the bow action coming down, the theory was that it creates pitch (with this clockwise motion), the feel is that the left arm is higher than the right arm at this point... make a TON of sense in slow motion.



    In fast motion you cannot see it, but it is a "diametrical opposing circular force"...
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  • tembolo1284tembolo1284 Boom Boom Banned  20715WRX Points: 1Handicap: BeefPosts: 20,715 Titanium Tees
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    Wow this is starting to make sense.
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  • chrisgilly09chrisgilly09 Members  1564WRX Points: 101Posts: 1,564 Platinum Tees
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    Easiest to see in Snead, and which why I never bought into the whole straight arm thing. In his case, he's taking it back inside enough so that when he does his shift out, it's still from inside out. Watch Snead, Hogan, Venturi, Casper, Knudson they all do it.



    Pin, as long as shoulders are turning very soon in the BS, you can't lawn mower the R arm. Sure makes me feel like my BS shoulder turn is very tight, no wasted motion
    Posted:
  • Pinsplitter59Pinsplitter59 Members  976WRX Points: 3Posts: 976 Golden Tee
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    Well I could be posting a lot of nonsense over the next few days, stuck inside with too much time to think. It was 43C (109.4F) yesterday, 41 today until Friday evening.

    I can't do anything like Snead's backswing, been trying but I can't stop my ingrained habits.

    I got closer I think by changing the way I think about the first move, usually I turn my shoulders and try different ways of getting the hands going "inside", so a new thought was to "kink the straw", you know if you push a drinking straw in the middle it just suddenly gives way and kinks, so was "kinking" my right side, the right elbow and right hip just give way and go behind, no pulling, no dragging, no pushing, no attempt to turn the shoulders.

    A very simple move, and similar to what I think some guys do.

    And a bit like a young mate of mine i see often on the practice fairway, hits the ball miles and very well (but can go crooked without warning), I've never been able to understand how he does what he does, but I think this way of doing a "back set" is part of it, its not a "back swing".

    That's Part 1.

    Part 2 is something I was practicing a while ago and when i look at my mate this is what he does and explains why he has no downswing thoughts (he's only ever had 1 lesson), all he does he says is "hit the ball", which logically means he feels he is on a position where he can just directly hit the ball.

    The key to being able to get this position/feel is now to me today this morning and for the next 2 minutes until my butterfly brain descends onto another attractive flower, is....... the position/orientation of the right forearm at the top of the "swing".

    If the inside of the right forearm is "facing the ball" the direction back to the ball is very simple and direct, to me this feels like my right elbow is much higher than usual and is quite the opposite to turning the left arm over the right arm (even though that kinda works, it feels awkward and requires downswing manipulations of the body to hit the ball with control).

    Maybe this forearm set is just a compensation for my imperfect back swing, i don't really care.

    I think the general important thing is that at the top of your swing you have to feel ready and able to directly hit the ball, without having to bump, turn,twiddle and fiddle things first.

    Throwing a ball one-handed you instinctively set your right forearm to deliver the ball in the direction you want it to go.

    Guys like Rickie Fowler have to sling release because the right forearm is in the wrong place, Tiger and his silly over the top turn is simply trying to get the right forearm facing down at the ball, Nicklaus found the position that suited his back swing (the flying right elbow).

    Snead's final up move sets his inside right forearm really on top of the ball so he can come down and the club just naturally goes out left afterwards.

    Ray Floyd, A. Quiros, lots of golfers when you look around.

    Tired now... methinks methinks too mutt.
    Posted:
  • tembolo1284tembolo1284 Boom Boom Banned  20715WRX Points: 1Handicap: BeefPosts: 20,715 Titanium Tees
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    love this thread!
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  • Pinsplitter59Pinsplitter59 Members  976WRX Points: 3Posts: 976 Golden Tee
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    Hot again today 45C (113F). Thank god a cool change is coming this afternoon.

    Bushfires burning up in the north Grampians near my avatar golf course.

    Snakes everywhere on the golf course. Ahhhhh Aussie Summer you nasty b*tch.

    Tembolo thanks for watching, why do I feel like I'm on Funniest Home Videos and you're sitting on your sofa having guilty chuckles.

    Video lies doesn't it. Especially DTL views. That's one of the biggest problems trying to understand someone's golf swing.

    Feeling set to hit is now becoming my goal.

    Last saturday facing a 3 wood into a long par 4 12th hole against the wind (1 over par after 5 up and owns in a row and a 3 putt), I didn't feel right, didn't feel I could make the shot I wanted but stupidly tried to (just a straight hit nothing fancy), my usual miss, a slight block, of course eventuated and didn't carry the right side bunker and and made double, instead of slapping my brain and aiming to left side of the green. Two holes later shanked a wedge into a bunker and doubled again, because of trying a weird downswing thing I had invented. So i stuffed the round by bad choices but really because I did not have a set position to go to and feel right about hitting the ball.

    And its all in how Hogan, Snead, Martinez etc. take the club away, if you don't do that you can't do the rest.
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  • tembolo1284tembolo1284 Boom Boom Banned  20715WRX Points: 1Handicap: BeefPosts: 20,715 Titanium Tees
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    My god Pin that's some serious temps where you are!
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  • Pinsplitter59Pinsplitter59 Members  976WRX Points: 3Posts: 976 Golden Tee
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    Well I've been spending some time out on the dark side and it seems that apart from being ignorant and delusional I also know nothing. Now that is hard to argue against. So here I am happy to be back in my own little pile of poo.

    Anyone who attempts to understand or emulate Hogan is a fool because the "modern" swing is the only real thing.

    Gee I'm tired.....................
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  • ej002ej002 Unregistered  5129WRX Points: 3Posts: 5,129 Titanium Tees
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    Pin at least in your travels into the dark side, they were kind enough to inform you how ignorant you are... so you got that going for you!
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  • dairicdairic Members  1098WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,098
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    Well I've been spending some time out on the dark side and it seems that apart from being ignorant and delusional I also know nothing. Now that is hard to argue against. So here I am happy to be back in my own little pile of poo.

    Anyone who attempts to understand or emulate Hogan is a fool because the "modern" swing is the only real thing.

    Gee I'm tired.....................




    You dared to question so you must capitulate to the subsequent and less than genial swarm from the sheeple. That's just the way it works over there. The over reaction was a bit much, but.....who gives a rat's a** anyway.
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  • nicebutdimnicebutdim Members  596WRX Points: 0Posts: 596
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    dairic wrote:



    Well I've been spending some time out on the dark side and it seems that apart from being ignorant and delusional I also know nothing. Now that is hard to argue against. So here I am happy to be back in my own little pile of poo.

    Anyone who attempts to understand or emulate Hogan is a fool because the "modern" swing is the only real thing.

    Gee I'm tired.....................




    You dared to question so you must capitulate to the subsequent and less than genial swarm from the sheeple. That's just the way it works over there. The over reaction was a bit much, but.....who gives a rat's a** anyway.




    So what was "The Secret"?



    If only he just asked a question (I do that all the time)..... he called Jim's theory a bunch of dangerous nonsense. That's when the Purge began, you know, a bit like with Jesus:



    tin-foil-hat.jpg
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  • dlygrissedlygrisse KansasMembers  13873WRX Points: 1,437Handicap: 8-ishPosts: 13,873 Titanium Tees
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    Seems to me if you keep the right arm connected (Ed Sullivan show drill) thats where the hands want to go. Am I right? Seems like Ben, Sam, Dufner all have the upper right arm against the side of the body.
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  • dairicdairic Members  1098WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,098
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    nicebutdim wrote:

    dairic wrote:



    Well I've been spending some time out on the dark side and it seems that apart from being ignorant and delusional I also know nothing. Now that is hard to argue against. So here I am happy to be back in my own little pile of poo.

    Anyone who attempts to understand or emulate Hogan is a fool because the "modern" swing is the only real thing.

    Gee I'm tired.....................




    You dared to question so you must capitulate to the subsequent and less than genial swarm from the sheeple. That's just the way it works over there. The over reaction was a bit much, but.....who gives a rat's a** anyway.




    So what was "The Secret"?



    If only he just asked a question (I do that all the time)..... he called Jim's theory a bunch of dangerous nonsense. That's when the Purge began, you know, a bit like with Jesus:






    You want to know what's dangerous? Consider that the last time someone was cast away from the main forum they dwelt in the Hogan forum for too long and went insane (coincidentally this person looked a little bit like jesus...hmmm). A documentary was made about the whole ordeal. Don't let it happen to you too Pin.



    [media=]
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  • Kiwi2Kiwi2 Members  1059WRX Points: 2Posts: 1,059 Bunkers
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    Answering my own question. I suppose logically the left arm has to go very much across the chest which means the right arm has to quickly fold from the elbow in a similar across direction so the right forearm is getting to a more vertical position.

    Definitely not a one-piece take-away with a straight right arm.




    No, the left arm does not go "very much across the chest. "



    and it isn't hard to do.



    What you see is an illusion.



    but because of your effort on the ASI thread I am not going to tell you how.



    Tell you what ,give Crokes a call he will tell you for a fee.
    Posted:
  • Pinsplitter59Pinsplitter59 Members  976WRX Points: 3Posts: 976 Golden Tee
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    Ohh Kiwi, you're a brave fellow venturing through the tunnel into the light (hearted) side.

    You're not gonna tell me!!! Please Please Please, aww you're so mean, just because i called your Guru to account and he failed to respond in a mature and intelligent manner.

    I mean really aren't you appalled at the names your beloved Guru called me?

    Guru's of course are into Illusion (Maya in the Indian Yogi tradition), except to them all is an illusion not just the arm "swing".

    Call Mr. Croker? Hmmmmm i told you before i regard him as a Leadbetter wanna be, he was not much of a golfer when I played with him years ago and I have seen some of his stuff in a magazine more recently and enough said.

    You know Kiwi if you could get your good mate Jim to stop making outrageous claims his credibility might rise.

    Exactly how many great golfers used a 45* arm push-away? He claims ALL then qualifies it when challenged to say it isn't necessarily 45* it might be less (0*?), but but 45* is the Golden Rule! Can't have your cake and eat it too old boy.



    So dear boy (you're a trainee pro aren't you? handicap about 4 or 5?) let us know how your Furyk swing progresses.

    The most dangerous people in the world are those who are convinced they are right.
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  • tembolo1284tembolo1284 Boom Boom Banned  20715WRX Points: 1Handicap: BeefPosts: 20,715 Titanium Tees
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    Oh god in heaven you guys are killing me!
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  • Kiwi2Kiwi2 Members  1059WRX Points: 2Posts: 1,059 Bunkers
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    Ohh Kiwi, you're a brave fellow venturing through the tunnel into the light (hearted) side.

    You're not gonna tell me!!! Please Please Please, aww you're so mean, just because i called your Guru to account and he failed to respond in a mature and intelligent manner.

    I mean really aren't you appalled at the names your beloved Guru called me?

    Guru's of course are into Illusion (Maya in the Indian Yogi tradition), except to them all is an illusion not just the arm "swing".

    Call Mr. Croker? Hmmmmm i told you before i regard him as a Leadbetter wanna be, he was not much of a golfer when I played with him years ago and I have seen some of his stuff in a magazine more recently and enough said.

    You know Kiwi if you could get your good mate Jim to stop making outrageous claims his credibility might rise.

    Exactly how many great golfers used a 45* arm push-away? He claims ALL then qualifies it when challenged to say it isn't necessarily 45* it might be less (0*?), but but 45* is the Golden Rule! Can't have your cake and eat it too old boy.



    So dear boy (you're a trainee pro aren't you? handicap about 4 or 5?) let us know how your Furyk swing progresses.

    The most dangerous people in the world are those who are convinced they are right.




    Just clearing up some inaccuracies in your post. I am not a trainee. my handicap is lower than 4 or 5 and my swing looks nothing like Furyk.



    Now off you go and phone Crokes.
    Posted:
  • tembolo1284tembolo1284 Boom Boom Banned  20715WRX Points: 1Handicap: BeefPosts: 20,715 Titanium Tees
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    Good lord Pin the heat over there is gettin' to ya!



    What are you guys fighting about?



    Remember Kiwi has the All Blacks team in his corner.
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  • Kiwi2Kiwi2 Members  1059WRX Points: 2Posts: 1,059 Bunkers
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    Good lord Pin the heat over there is gettin' to ya!



    What are you guys fighting about?



    Remember Kiwi has the All Blacks team in his corner.




    And Pin has the great pretender Wannabie Wallabies.



    Pin.11 long years if you know what I mean or do you follow that game with the tight shorts and aerial gymnastics?



    ha ha ha ha ha
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