Hogan hands around the cookies to take away.

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  • tembolo1284tembolo1284 Boom Boom Banned  20715WRX Points: 1Handicap: BeefPosts: 20,715 Titanium Tees
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    OMG I sense I've just entered a blood feud.



    Please don't hurt the foreigner?
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  • Kiwi2Kiwi2 Members  1059WRX Points: 2Posts: 1,059 Bunkers
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    The convicts can take it and we aint sharin our sheep with no one :-)
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  • tembolo1284tembolo1284 Boom Boom Banned  20715WRX Points: 1Handicap: BeefPosts: 20,715 Titanium Tees
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    Sheep steak...Bet you hogan would have loved some sheep filet!



    That was my attempt to get it back on topic image/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />
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  • tembolo1284tembolo1284 Boom Boom Banned  20715WRX Points: 1Handicap: BeefPosts: 20,715 Titanium Tees
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    Pin....where you go sir?
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  • tembolo1284tembolo1284 Boom Boom Banned  20715WRX Points: 1Handicap: BeefPosts: 20,715 Titanium Tees
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    I'm afraid the mister sisters might be using his clubs again.
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  • Kiwi2Kiwi2 Members  1059WRX Points: 2Posts: 1,059 Bunkers
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    Pin....where you go sir?






    It is only 5 am in the West Island of NZ. Probably sleeping.
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  • tembolo1284tembolo1284 Boom Boom Banned  20715WRX Points: 1Handicap: BeefPosts: 20,715 Titanium Tees
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    I thought Pin never sleeps! haha.
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  • tembolo1284tembolo1284 Boom Boom Banned  20715WRX Points: 1Handicap: BeefPosts: 20,715 Titanium Tees
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    How far are you from christchurch?
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  • Kiwi2Kiwi2 Members  1059WRX Points: 2Posts: 1,059 Bunkers
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    How far are you from christchurch?




    600 miles and in the other island. Its a 15 hour drive (including the ferry over Cook Strait)
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  • tembolo1284tembolo1284 Boom Boom Banned  20715WRX Points: 1Handicap: BeefPosts: 20,715 Titanium Tees
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    Kiwi2 wrote:



    How far are you from christchurch?




    600 miles and in the other island. Its a 15 hour drive (including the ferry over Cook Strait)






    Yikes! Nearly 1000 kms!
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  • lonestar48lonestar48 Members  189WRX Points: 0Posts: 189
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    Back on topic please! Some of us are actually fascinated with the discussion...
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  • ej002ej002 Unregistered  5129WRX Points: 3Posts: 5,129 Titanium Tees
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    B.S. straight arm away from chest stuff doesnt apply to Hogan. Hogan didn't load xx rebar by moving his hands away from him. His right elbow bends pretty soon and by P3 you can see his hands are well inside by then. Do the words "swung my left arm across my chest" resonate at all?
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  • tembolo1284tembolo1284 Boom Boom Banned  20715WRX Points: 1Handicap: BeefPosts: 20,715 Titanium Tees
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    I'm seriously lost.
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  • Kiwi2Kiwi2 Members  1059WRX Points: 2Posts: 1,059 Bunkers
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    I'm seriously lost.




    No need to be. Ej is wrong, he can't see past the illusion and Pin doesn't get it either. Some people get confused because they think Jim is saying you should move your arms away in line with mid-line of body. That is not what he is saying at all.





    Depth_zpsc115fcf6.jpg



    Jim Waldron would most likely ask two questions:



    1. Where is Dufner's sternum?



    Try and imagine him without a shirt on.

    His sternum is facing the camera. There is a 90 degree chest rotation away from his starting position.



    2. Where are his right arm and both hands? Are they behind or in front of his chest?



    When you can "see" in the depth dimension, it becomes obvious Dufner's hands and right and left arm are all in front of his chest. They aren't behind, not a bit and they are not even at the side of his torso. Just like a waiter holding a tray of food in front of the right side of his chest as he walks through the restaurant.
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  • Forged_IronsForged_Irons James Members  356WRX Points: 35Posts: 356 Greens
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    Well I could be posting a lot of nonsense over the next few days, stuck inside with too much time to think. It was 43C (109.4F) yesterday, 41 today until Friday evening.

    I can't do anything like Snead's backswing, been trying but I can't stop my ingrained habits.

    I got closer I think by changing the way I think about the first move, usually I turn my shoulders and try different ways of getting the hands going "inside", so a new thought was to "kink the straw", you know if you push a drinking straw in the middle it just suddenly gives way and kinks, so was "kinking" my right side, the right elbow and right hip just give way and go behind, no pulling, no dragging, no pushing, no attempt to turn the shoulders.

    A very simple move, and similar to what I think some guys do.

    And a bit like a young mate of mine i see often on the practice fairway, hits the ball miles and very well (but can go crooked without warning), I've never been able to understand how he does what he does, but I think this way of doing a "back set" is part of it, its not a "back swing".

    That's Part 1.

    Part 2 is something I was practicing a while ago and when i look at my mate this is what he does and explains why he has no downswing thoughts (he's only ever had 1 lesson), all he does he says is "hit the ball", which logically means he feels he is on a position where he can just directly hit the ball.

    The key to being able to get this position/feel is now to me today this morning and for the next 2 minutes until my butterfly brain descends onto another attractive flower, is....... the position/orientation of the right forearm at the top of the "swing".

    If the inside of the right forearm is "facing the ball" the direction back to the ball is very simple and direct, to me this feels like my right elbow is much higher than usual and is quite the opposite to turning the left arm over the right arm (even though that kinda works, it feels awkward and requires downswing manipulations of the body to hit the ball with control).

    Maybe this forearm set is just a compensation for my imperfect back swing, i don't really care.

    I think the general important thing is that at the top of your swing you have to feel ready and able to directly hit the ball, without having to bump, turn,twiddle and fiddle things first.

    Throwing a ball one-handed you instinctively set your right forearm to deliver the ball in the direction you want it to go.

    Guys like Rickie Fowler have to sling release because the right forearm is in the wrong place, Tiger and his silly over the top turn is simply trying to get the right forearm facing down at the ball, Nicklaus found the position that suited his back swing (the flying right elbow).

    Snead's final up move sets his inside right forearm really on top of the ball so he can come down and the club just naturally goes out left afterwards.

    Ray Floyd, A. Quiros, lots of golfers when you look around.

    Tired now... methinks methinks too mutt.




    Your part 2 really caught my attention.

    Your mate is fortunate he never had the chance to have someone ruin his natural swing. When you take the club away properly in one piece (grab a medicine ball and take a backswing with it, you have to do it in one piece, problem with the club is that it's very light so we tend to disengage our arms from the body) all you have to think about is hitting the ball because your body isn't in the way of your arms. Everything works in together in sequence, the way your body is designed to do it. Have you ever wondered why kids can swing so fluidly (albeit without much power yet)? IMO it's because they have a natural one piece takeaway that many of us seekers have ingrained out of our swings. Pretend you're gonna backhand the ball. You have to use your whole body to do it hard, and you'll do it in the proper sequence. Just like your mate.

    Also, in your original pics there are different camera angles and different moments in the swings. Minuscule differences can throw off the entire comparison.

    Stenson looks amazing here! Hogan appears more "around himself" but in actuality he's just more connected and lower than some of the others.

    Zach Johnson's swing (along with a couple of the others) should never even be considered as a learning tool. He makes it work but it's a bunt swing with little to no release and a quasi chicken wing finish. Zach makes it work well for him but it has precious little in common with greats like Hogan/Snead.
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  • Forged_IronsForged_Irons James Members  356WRX Points: 35Posts: 356 Greens
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    As far as the downswing is concerned, Azinger said it best on Golf Academy last week. It's the same as squaring an ax to the base of a tree. Hands and arms just do what they're supposed to do automatically, that is until we try to get a golf ball to go high and straight. That's when all the manipulations start.
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  • Forged_IronsForged_Irons James Members  356WRX Points: 35Posts: 356 Greens
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    dlygrisse wrote:


    Seems to me if you keep the right arm connected (Ed Sullivan show drill) thats where the hands want to go. Am I right? Seems like Ben, Sam, Dufner all have the upper right arm against the side of the body.




    I agree. Ed Sullivan show is great way to learn the right move. The more the shoulders coil the more the right elbow folds naturally on plane. What kills many of us is when the arms start to move independently of the shoulders and center.



    I would also add that you have large margin of error to be on plane. All the way from your toes to the ball. That's the range. If the plane tilts greater than outside the ball you're too flat, if tilts inside your toes you're far too upright.
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  • ej002ej002 Unregistered  5129WRX Points: 3Posts: 5,129 Titanium Tees
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    Kiwi2 wrote:



    I'm seriously lost.




    No need to be. Ej is wrong, he can't see past the illusion and Pin doesn't get it either. Some people get confused because they think Jim is saying you should move your arms away in line with mid-line of body. That is not what he is saying at all.





    Depth_zpsc115fcf6.jpg



    Jim Waldron would most likely ask two questions:



    1. Where is Dufner's sternum?



    Try and imagine him without a shirt on.

    His sternum is facing the camera. There is a 90 degree chest rotation away from his starting position.



    2. Where are his right arm and both hands? Are they behind or in front of his chest?



    When you can "see" in the depth dimension, it becomes obvious Dufner's hands and right and left arm are all in front of his chest. They aren't behind, not a bit and they are not even at the side of his torso. Just like a waiter holding a tray of food in front of the right side of his chest as he walks through the restaurant.






    Wow... Ben got fat and ugly in that picture or did I wander into the Jason Dufner forum?



    And I am not wrong. Hogan didn't swing that TSP unathletic nonsense.
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  • Kiwi2Kiwi2 Members  1059WRX Points: 2Posts: 1,059 Bunkers
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    ej002 wrote:


    Wow... Ben got fat and ugly in that picture or did I wander into the Jason Dufner forum?



    And I am not wrong. Hogan didn't swing that TSP unathletic nonsense.




    Dufner was one of the examples used by Pin in his original post.



    The evidence speaks for itself. Some people are so entrenched in their mindset that they cannot see the truth.



    Hogandepth_zps3eed4da0.jpg
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  • ej002ej002 Unregistered  5129WRX Points: 3Posts: 5,129 Titanium Tees
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    No inside takeaway huh? Which was Pin's original point.
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  • ej002ej002 Unregistered  5129WRX Points: 3Posts: 5,129 Titanium Tees
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    Hands in front of the sternum eh? Check.
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  • ej002ej002 Unregistered  5129WRX Points: 3Posts: 5,129 Titanium Tees
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    No use of arms by Hogan either, right? So he goes from here (right side of torso / somewhat behind):



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  • ej002ej002 Unregistered  5129WRX Points: 3Posts: 5,129 Titanium Tees
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  • Kiwi2Kiwi2 Members  1059WRX Points: 2Posts: 1,059 Bunkers
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    ej002 wrote:


    No inside takeaway huh? Which was Pin's original point.




    He also said:



    "I guess people call it taking it inside and is considered naughty. Been thinking about it and it seems many things can prevent you getting this position.

    Some are:

    - The 1 piece take-away.

    - Keep hands and club in front of body.

    - Believe in the "Arm Swing Illusion".

    - Use a Swing Shirt.

    - Swing Up and Down.

    - Think that the left arm goes Up.

    - Think that the left arm and right shoulder are connected."



    You have been sucked in by the 2d illusions.
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  • Pinsplitter59Pinsplitter59 Members  976WRX Points: 3Posts: 976 Golden Tee
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    Rust never sleeps and I can't explain how NZ farmers love their sheep to all youse freigners because the children are watching.

    English, as she is spoke, is beyond the grasp of many folks to use clearly and unambiguously, so we have great trouble understanding Lord Jim and Kiwi.

    Let me try to understand you Kiwi. Firstly "behind" means behind. It is virtually impossible for any human to get his arms behind his chest. When you say "behind", do you mean the right arm and part of the left arm go "past" and wider than the right side of his body? So if I draw a line along the angled right side of the golfers torso from DTL view, the hands would not be past this line?

    If so, many good glfers have the hands go past this line, Garcia, Tiger Woods, McIlroy thousands actually.

    One who did not was Nicklaus because his hands path was so vertical.

    If that's not what you mean, please explain in clear English what you mean, if you can.

    I just saw a vid of Duffner too where his hands go well outside this line, did you choose a half swing or a frame not at the top of his swing to support YOUR illusion. (Can't upload I have no allowance left).



    I tried very hard to understand Lord Jim explaining his illusion using English as a second language, and I think I finally did.

    Target line and, from where your hands are, a line drawn 45* away from it to the rear, hands move along the 45* line, i.e. further away from the body, but because the shoulders turn it seems more like a straight along the target line take-away.

    Its just a bit like Couples, Trevino and Furyk is it not? Why don't you just say that and stop pretending its mysterious.



    You guys are picking and choosing little parts of things to try to "prove" something.

    Using a deceitful part of Duffner is so desperate, and he has such a regular one-piece take-away his hands do not move away from his body.

    The screaming lack of evidence from you and Lord Jim is astonishing.

    Why not just be clear and honest and say "Swing Like Fred Couples Golf School".



    Anyhow I think I know why I am struggling, my short arms combined with my enormous gym hardened pectorals make it hard for me to move my left arm where I want it to go.
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  • ej002ej002 Unregistered  5129WRX Points: 3Posts: 5,129 Titanium Tees
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    Btw - there was a thread in the darkside where they were arguing about the rigid left arm being a fundamental... Hogan's left arm looks bend and Sadlowski's is super bent...
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  • Pinsplitter59Pinsplitter59 Members  976WRX Points: 3Posts: 976 Golden Tee
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    But seriously Kiwi, why can't you explain it?

    Telling people they can't see past the "illusion" is so cheap and the recourse of those who believe in something without any proof.

    Gurus and evangelicals etc. have used this method for thousands of years on vulnerable insecure people looking for something to cure their problems.

    God exists! No he doesn't! Yes he does, you just can't see him!
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  • Kiwi2Kiwi2 Members  1059WRX Points: 2Posts: 1,059 Bunkers
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    No deceit. That was the top of Dufner's swing







    Here is another one of Dufner at the top. He still hasn't crossed centreline.



    Dufnerdepth2_zps94d2a3b2.jpg



    As Jim has said to me



    "The only issue is how much of an arm pushaway is performed in the width dimension and how much in the height dimension and how much in the horizontal dimension. Ultra Spinners like Hogan and even a hybrid like Duffner of Leveraged Spin and Ultra Spin will have less movement of the arms in the width and vertical and more in the horizontal"
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  • ej002ej002 Unregistered  5129WRX Points: 3Posts: 5,129 Titanium Tees
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    So basically Jim is saying guys who get really open have to have their arms behind them... great. Thanks for playing.
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  • Kiwi2Kiwi2 Members  1059WRX Points: 2Posts: 1,059 Bunkers
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    But seriously Kiwi, why can't you explain it?

    Telling people they can't see past the "illusion" is so cheap and the recourse of those who believe in something without any proof.

    Gurus and evangelicals etc. have used this method for thousands of years on vulnerable insecure people looking for something to cure their problems.

    God exists! No he doesn't! Yes he does, you just can't see him!




    it has been explained over and over again.



    You are just so set in your ways and blind to new information you can't see it.



    Those photos should have helped you.They prove it.



    You said you were an arts teacher. If it is art as opposed to manual arts, you of all people should be able to see it.
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