Hogan hands around the cookies to take away.

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  • tembolo1284tembolo1284 Boom Boom Banned  20715WRX Points: 1Handicap: BeefPosts: 20,715 Titanium Tees
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    rok78 wrote:
    <br />
    I'm really surprised you don't get it. It's nothing more than another way to explain that arms move more in the vertical than horizontal in relation to the chest. It's another way of getting people to conceptualize the old "keep the arms in front of you" idea.<br />
    <br />
    It is not a pattern either, it's a concept. It helps some people better understand how the arms should move in relation to your chest. There are other ways to get the concept across too, Jim just put a name to it and has his way of defining and communicating it.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    I just don't see it. I get everything you said...but it puts me in a position that's too upright and too across the line.
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  • tembolo1284tembolo1284 Boom Boom Banned  20715WRX Points: 1Handicap: BeefPosts: 20,715 Titanium Tees
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    Rok is it possible for you to show me what is not ASI?
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  • rok78rok78 Members  1680WRX Points: 55Posts: 1,680 Platinum Tees
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    <br />
    Rok is it possible for you to show me what is not ASI?<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    No because it is a concept not a position or pattern. It's more about how you see the swing versus not. Swings are swings and you can categorize "arms more in front" and "arms less in front" but not as "this is/isn't an ASI swing." ASI just gives some people a different way of how to look at the arms in relation to the chest.<br />
    <br />
    Did you get across the line or too vertical with Dan's straight arm drill? It achieves the same purpose as the mini-drill that Jim had typed (I'm assuming that's what you're referencing).
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  • eightironeightiron Banned  3136WRX Points: 0Posts: 3,136
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    rok78 wrote:
    <br />
    I'm really surprised you don't get it. It's nothing more than another way to explain that arms move more in the vertical than horizontal in relation to the chest. It's another way of getting people to conceptualize the old "keep the arms in front of you" idea.<br />
    <br />
    It is not a pattern either, it's a concept. It helps some people better understand how the arms should move in relation to your chest. There are other ways to get the concept across too, Jim just put a name to it and has his way of defining and communicating it.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    And that's fine , you can play or swing that way and you can put a bunch of tour pros in that category but you can't prove an arm push away involvement . Let's get to the arms motion ! In no way should they ever feel like they move vertically , in fact it's the wrists job to move the club upwards on the arc combined with correct tilts of the pivot motion , there is zero pushing away . The arms work more in the horizontal direction ! I can go deeper into the setting of the right shoulder as well at address to **** the horizontal arm motion .<br />
    The real issues with the hacks trying to keep the " arms in front" is incorrect grip ,set up issues, lack of wrist **** and straight out junk of a pivot not rolling the arms too .<br />
    much horizontally .
    Posted:
  • eightironeightiron Banned  3136WRX Points: 0Posts: 3,136
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    So no rok , I see it as a method !
    Posted:
  • rok78rok78 Members  1680WRX Points: 55Posts: 1,680 Platinum Tees
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    eightiron wrote:
    <br />
    rok78 wrote:
    <br />
    I'm really surprised you don't get it. It's nothing more than another way to explain that arms move more in the vertical than horizontal in relation to the chest. It's another way of getting people to conceptualize the old "keep the arms in front of you" idea.<br />
    <br />
    It is not a pattern either, it's a concept. It helps some people better understand how the arms should move in relation to your chest. There are other ways to get the concept across too, Jim just put a name to it and has his way of defining and communicating it.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    And that's fine , you can play or swing that way and you can put a bunch of tour pros in that category but you can't prove an arm push away involvement . Let's get to the arms motion ! In no way should they ever feel like they move vertically , in fact it's the wrists job to move the club upwards on the arc combined with correct tilts of the pivot motion , there is zero pushing away . The arms work more in the horizontal direction ! I can go deeper into the setting of the right shoulder as well at address to **** the horizontal arm motion .<br />
    The real issues with the hacks trying to keep the " arms in front" is incorrect grip ,set up issues, lack of wrist **** and straight out junk of a pivot not rolling the arms too .<br />
    much horizontally .<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    I fall into the line of "feel what you have to feel" in order to get the movement done. I think some people do a pushaway feel, others don't (I don't myself). Some need to feel vertical, others need to feel more around. Rates of the different movements blending probably contributes, as you say a deeper right shoulder can tend to limit the horizontal move.<br />
    <br />
    I say more vertical than horizontal because from address because of the relative movements. Using the hands as a measuring point, depending if you're mid-body or impact set-up, they move only 8-12 inches horizontally to the chest. In comparison with the right elbow bending (along with wrist hinge and momentum from the clubhead assisting), the hands move vertically in relation to the chest around 18-22" or so.
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  • eightironeightiron Banned  3136WRX Points: 0Posts: 3,136
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    No rok the right shoulder has to be set up with protraction to **** the horizontal motion in thr initial stages of the backswing,and your measurements maybe correct for a particular golfer but doesn't mean the arms are working vertically , it's due the pivot motion and wrist ****. It , the ASI is a method that doesn't fit a lot of great golf swings , can you actually prove it does?
    Posted:
  • ej002ej002 Unregistered  5129WRX Points: 3Posts: 5,129 Titanium Tees
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    The problem IMO with the ASI stuff - at least how it is written - might actually cause what it is trying to prevent. It appears to be a hand controlled backswing sort of - and a pivot controlled down swing. What keeps the hands in synch on the way down? If you just fire the hands you could get really linear and punchy which Jim says shouldn't happen. If you just rotate you can get stuck. The vertical chop motion will keep you on TSP. Which IMO is sub optimal. I don't see how there could be much EXternal Rotation of the right shoulder, which is key in allowing one to load the levers. It is important b/c it acts like a break to over bending and getting stuck. Personally I am trying to hitchhike with the right arm as far behind me as possible. <br />
    <br />
    Does it look like Hogan is pressing away trying to get in synch - nope. He is is throwing a shut ton of momentum behind him and the club stops for biomechanics reasons.
    Posted:
  • rok78rok78 Members  1680WRX Points: 55Posts: 1,680 Platinum Tees
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    eightiron wrote:
    <br />
    No rok the right shoulder has to be set up with protraction to **** the horizontal motion in thr initial stages of the backswing,and your measurements maybe correct for a particular golfer but doesn't mean the arms are working vertically , it's due the pivot motion and wrist ****. It , the ASI is a method that doesn't fit a lot of great golf swings , can you actually prove it does?<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Sorry, I misunderstood your previous post. Can't say I 100% understand the protraction part, I need to think on it more. I agree my measurements aren't for all golfers, ratio of horizontal to vertical can change (but I do honestly think it leans towards vertical for most). I'll try and think of a better example of what I mean by concept, but if you ask me if any great golf swings fit the ASI concept, then I say if I look at the swing through that view point then yes. Just because someone has left arm more across the body doesn't mean it doesn't fit the ASI concept, it means that this particular golfer is more on the horizontal dimension than the median. Some go in the other direction.<br />
    <br />
    To my understanding there is no one ASI swing. Jim believes in moderation in everything, so if he had an ideal it would be a blend of horizontal and vertical that would be a good medium. From there it's a matter of being in a spectrum of more horizontal to vertical.<br />
    <br />
    BTW, I'm by no means an expert on this either, I could be completely off. I had a couple lessons with Jim a few years ago and it was very transformative to understanding my own swing and pattern. The only time we talked about ASI was when I thought I was too flat with arms behind as I was getting "stuck" with driver. He said I wasn't, we talked about possible checkpoints in relation to hands to right shoulder, depth, etc for my understanding in relation to ASI. Ended up I was blocking because I was a little underplane from transition and my pivot stalled. Fixed how my shoulders rotated on the downswing and eliminated the stall.
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  • rok78rok78 Members  1680WRX Points: 55Posts: 1,680 Platinum Tees
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    ej002 wrote:
    <br />
    The problem IMO with the ASI stuff - at least how it is written - might actually cause what it is trying to prevent. It appears to be a hand controlled backswing sort of - and a pivot controlled down swing. What keeps the hands in synch on the way down? If you just fire the hands you could get really linear and punchy which Jim says shouldn't happen. If you just rotate you can get stuck. The vertical chop motion will keep you on TSP. Which IMO is sub optimal. I don't see how there could be much EXternal Rotation of the right shoulder, which is key in allowing one to load the levers. It is important b/c it acts like a break to over bending and getting stuck. Personally I am trying to hitchhike with the right arm as far behind me as possible. <br />
    <br />
    Does it look like Hogan is pressing away trying to get in synch - nope. He is is throwing a shut ton of momentum behind him and the club stops for biomechanics reasons.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    May be a bit of misunderstanding. I think Jim is open to having people create their own feels to repeat the motion. The only thing I can say about the shoulder is Jim had mentioned transition being the part to load the right shoulder. He also talked about how momentum of the clubhead at the end of the backswing to transition helps to assist in creating external rotation of the right shoulder. Happens when the arms do nothing during this first part down.
    Posted:
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  • eightironeightiron Banned  3136WRX Points: 0Posts: 3,136
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    rok78 wrote:
    <br />
    eightiron wrote:
    <br />
    No rok the right shoulder has to be set up with protraction to **** the horizontal motion in thr initial stages of the backswing,and your measurements maybe correct for a particular golfer but doesn't mean the arms are working vertically , it's due the pivot motion and wrist ****. It , the ASI is a method that doesn't fit a lot of great golf swings , can you actually prove it does?<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Sorry, I misunderstood your previous post. Can't say I 100% understand the protraction part, I need to think on it more. I agree my measurements aren't for all golfers, ratio of horizontal to vertical can change (but I do honestly think it leans towards vertical for most). I'll try and think of a better example of what I mean by concept, but if you ask me if any great golf swings fit the ASI concept, then I say if I look at the swing through that view point then yes. Just because <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    someone has left arm more across the body doesn't mean it doesn't fit the ASI concept, it means that this particular golfer is more on the horizontal dimension than the median. Some go in the other direction.<br />
    <br />
    To my understanding there is no one ASI swing. Jim believes in moderation in everything, so if he had an ideal it would be a blend of horizontal and vertical that would be a good medium. From there it's a matter of being in a spectrum of more horizontal to vertical.<br />
    <br />
    BTW, I'm by no means an expert on this either, I could be completely off. I had a couple lessons with Jim a few years ago and it was very transformative to understanding my own swing and pattern. The only time we talked about ASI was when I thought I was too flat with arms behind as I was getting "stuck" with driver. He said I wasn't, we talked about possible checkpoints in relation to hands to right shoulder, depth, etc for my understanding in relation to ASI. Ended up I was blocking because I was a little underplane from transition and my pivot stalled. Fixed how my shoulders rotated on the downswing and eliminated the stall.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Your missing the point , if there is an illusion , it's the upward motion of the arms , the arms work around the body , other factors move them up . You like the illusionist has cause and effect a** backwards!
    Posted:
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  • rok78rok78 Members  1680WRX Points: 55Posts: 1,680 Platinum Tees
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    eightiron wrote:
    <br />
    rok78 wrote:
    <br />
    eightiron wrote:
    <br />
    No rok the right shoulder has to be set up with protraction to **** the horizontal motion in thr initial stages of the backswing,and your measurements maybe correct for a particular golfer but doesn't mean the arms are working vertically , it's due the pivot motion and wrist ****. It , the ASI is a method that doesn't fit a lot of great golf swings , can you actually prove it does?<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Sorry, I misunderstood your previous post. Can't say I 100% understand the protraction part, I need to think on it more. I agree my measurements aren't for all golfers, ratio of horizontal to vertical can change (but I do honestly think it leans towards vertical for most). I'll try and think of a better example of what I mean by concept, but if you ask me if any great golf swings fit the ASI concept, then I say if I look at the swing through that view point then yes. Just because<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    someone has left arm more across the body doesn't mean it doesn't fit the ASI concept, it means that this particular golfer is more on the horizontal dimension than the median. Some go in the other direction.<br />
    <br />
    To my understanding there is no one ASI swing. Jim believes in moderation in everything, so if he had an ideal it would be a blend of horizontal and vertical that would be a good medium. From there it's a matter of being in a spectrum of more horizontal to vertical.<br />
    <br />
    BTW, I'm by no means an expert on this either, I could be completely off. I had a couple lessons with Jim a few years ago and it was very transformative to understanding my own swing and pattern. The only time we talked about ASI was when I thought I was too flat with arms behind as I was getting "stuck" with driver. He said I wasn't, we talked about possible checkpoints in relation to hands to right shoulder, depth, etc for my understanding in relation to ASI. Ended up I was blocking because I was a little underplane from transition and my pivot stalled. Fixed how my shoulders rotated on the downswing and eliminated the stall.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Your missing the point , if there is an illusion , it's the upward motion of the arms , the arms work around the body , other factors move them up . You like the illusionist has cause and effect a** backwards!<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Maybe I do. I think the hinging of the wrists, pivot (especially angle of the turning of the shoulders), right arm bending, and rotation of forearms to stay on plane, gets the club in the air. What else am I missing?
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  • eightironeightiron Banned  3136WRX Points: 0Posts: 3,136
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    Sounds fine to me rok , the difference is you measure how far the hands go up , therefore it must be an upward motion of the arms , Imop a lot of great swingers move the arms around the body and the upward motion comes from wrist **** , lead side lateral bend and right shoulder moving from internal to external . The right elbow folding is an effect.<br />
    And in your response to ej stating that momentum of the club head makes the right shoulder externally rotate ( from Waldron) , my suggestion is that this is baloney
    Posted:
  • PingG10guyPingG10guy Members  4057WRX Points: 0Posts: 4,057
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    ej002 wrote:
    <br />
    B.S. straight arm away from chest stuff doesnt apply to Hogan. Hogan didn't load xx rebar by moving his hands away from him. His right elbow bends pretty soon and by P3 you can see his hands are well inside by then. Do the words "swung my left arm across my chest" resonate at all?<br />
    <br />
    He has a ton of width from face on p2-p3.<br />
    <br />
    Looks like bubba
    Posted:
  • rok78rok78 Members  1680WRX Points: 55Posts: 1,680 Platinum Tees
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    I wasn't saying he thought the momentum of the club head is exclusively what makes the right shoulder externally rotate, just that it contributes.<br />
    <br />
    Thanks for the convo, always appreciate the insight. I'm still thinking on the protraction thing, I may need to PM you for clarification.
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  • PingG10guyPingG10guy Members  4057WRX Points: 0Posts: 4,057
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    eightiron wrote:
    <br />
    Sounds fine to me rok , the difference is you measure how far the hands go up , therefore it must be an upward motion of the arms , Imop a lot of great swingers move the arms around the body and the upward motion comes from wrist **** , lead side lateral bend and right shoulder moving from internal to external . The right elbow folding is an effect.<br />
    And in your response to ej stating that momentum of the club head makes the right shoulder externally rotate ( from Waldron) , my suggestion is that this is baloney<br />
    <br />
    But its still ranges. I know we arent talking about how to learn it, but i could certainly benefit from higher hands in the bs.<br />
    <br />
    Appearance vs feels. I agree with your baloney. I actually chuckled when i saw it a while ago. Slicefixer has a much better explanation for what causes the ER and how to learn it.
    Posted:
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  • chrisgilly09chrisgilly09 Members  1564WRX Points: 101Posts: 1,564 Platinum Tees
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    Mid body hands and bunny hop trigger, that's why his hands look wide at 2. To be honest eights musings have made the most sense in all this ASI stuff<br />
    <br />
    It's been a while since I read the ET or the 9/3 thread, what were geoffs thoughts on ER r shoulder stuff?<br />
    Posted:
  • eightironeightiron Banned  3136WRX Points: 0Posts: 3,136
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    PingG10guy wrote:
    <br />
    eightiron wrote:
    <br />
    Sounds fine to me rok , the difference is you measure how far the hands go up , therefore it must be an upward motion of the arms , Imop a lot of great swingers move the arms around the body and the upward motion comes from wrist **** , lead side lateral bend and right shoulder moving from internal to external . The right elbow folding is an effect.<br />
    And in your response to ej stating that momentum of the club head makes the right shoulder externally rotate ( from Waldron) , my suggestion is that this is baloney<br />
    <br />
    But its still ranges. I know we arent talking about how to learn it, but i could certainly benefit from higher hands in the bs.<br />
    <br />
    Appearance vs feels. I agree with your baloney. I actually chuckled when i saw it a while ago. Slicefixer has a much better explanation for what causes the <br />
    ER and how to learn it.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    You could but you would then have to settle for something you might not like , on the other hand , if you get the pieces right and have some shift out you wont have that issue
    Posted:
  • PingG10guyPingG10guy Members  4057WRX Points: 0Posts: 4,057
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    <br />
    Mid body hands and bunny hop trigger, that's why his hands look wide at 2. To be honest eights musings have made the most sense in all this ASI stuff<br />
    <br />
    It's been a while since I read the ET or the 9/3 thread, what were geoffs thoughts on ER r shoulder stuff?<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Caused by left forearm rotation per some of his students and a youtube video
    Posted:
  • tembolo1284tembolo1284 Boom Boom Banned  20715WRX Points: 1Handicap: BeefPosts: 20,715 Titanium Tees
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    PingG10guy wrote:
    <br />
    <br />
    Mid body hands and bunny hop trigger, that's why his hands look wide at 2. To be honest eights musings have made the most sense in all this ASI stuff<br />
    <br />
    It's been a while since I read the ET or the 9/3 thread, what were geoffs thoughts on ER r shoulder stuff?<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Caused by left forearm rotation per some of his students and a youtube video<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Yap that's right pingG10guy...left forearm rotation is what Geoff says.
    Posted:
  • ej002ej002 Unregistered  5129WRX Points: 3Posts: 5,129 Titanium Tees
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    I could left arm rotate and fuxk iup ER. Did it for years. Comes from cocking the right wrist and spreading elbow. <br />
    <br />
    When I was down there one of his guys showed me the drill - which is basically the 9 inch nerf ball in between the hands and on back swing the right hand gets on bottom and left on top. Basically would be like throwing a bucket of water behind you. <br />
    <br />
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  • tembolo1284tembolo1284 Boom Boom Banned  20715WRX Points: 1Handicap: BeefPosts: 20,715 Titanium Tees
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    ej002 wrote:
    <br />
    I could left arm rotate and fuxk iup ER. Did it for years. Comes from cocking the right wrist and spreading elbow.<br />
    <br />
    When I was down there one of his guys showed me the drill - which is basically the 9 inch nerf ball in between the hands and on back swing the right hand gets on bottom and left on top. Basically would be like throwing a bucket of water behind you.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Then you are losing your grip a bit or you don't have your right elbow working correctly. It's not solely from left arm rotation....you gotta have right elbow and wrist working correctly too like you mentioned.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Dammit EJ...you made me give away our secret!
    Posted:
  • chrisgilly09chrisgilly09 Members  1564WRX Points: 101Posts: 1,564 Platinum Tees
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    eightiron wrote:
    <br />
    No rok the right shoulder has to be set up with protraction to **** the horizontal motion in thr initial stages of the backswing...<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    This is brilliant
    Posted:
  • eightironeightiron Banned  3136WRX Points: 0Posts: 3,136
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    <br />
    eightiron wrote:
    <br />
    No rok the right shoulder has to be set up with protraction to **** the horizontal motion in thr initial stages of the backswing...<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    This is brilliant<br />
    <br />
    eightiron wrote:
    <br />
    No rok the right shoulder has to be set up with protraction to **** the horizontal motion in thr initial stages of the backswing...<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    This is brilliant<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    The polish genius taught me that , something I do naturally , never considered it until lately . It's also something which kelley never figured out and came up with extensor action looking at pictures
    Posted:
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    Dman messages me recently - were trying to get the gang back together at Bsg. It's dead over there basically svs and texapoet and a dude names peter...
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  • PingG10guyPingG10guy Members  4057WRX Points: 0Posts: 4,057
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    ej002 wrote:
    <br />
    Dman messages me recently - were trying to get the gang back together at Bsg. It's dead over there basically svs and texapoet and a dude names peter...<br />
    <br />
    Bsg?
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  • chrisgilly09chrisgilly09 Members  1564WRX Points: 101Posts: 1,564 Platinum Tees
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    I actually said that here about a year ago, but no one responded about it. In retrospect I should've taken that as a good sign lol. Still working on the R side getting out of the way coupled with side bend part. Trigger is easy but deceptively genius; heel toe, heel toe, and so on...
    Posted:
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    dairic wrote:
    <br />
    <br />
    Maintaining protraction through the whole swing?<br />
    <br />
    Kelvin said right shoulder is retracting from p4-p5...
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  • ej002ej002 Unregistered  5129WRX Points: 3Posts: 5,129 Titanium Tees
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    I think it would have to the way it is loaded. BSG is bombsquadgolf
    Posted:
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