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Biggest mystery in equipment: Bounce


BrianL99

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I know Bounce has been discussed a zillion times, but I'm no more clear on it today than I was 20 years ago. I know exactly what it does in sand and how to manipulate it ... apparently I still can't figure out what it does or doesn't do in other situations.

 

We all know the "Sliders or Pickers" need less bounce than Diggers ... you can read that anywhere.

 

Conventional wisdom is that tight lies demand lower bounce and softer/thicker lies require more bounce.

 

Then comes Hunter Mahan in this month's Golf Digest:

 

"My Ping Tour Gorge wedges (53 and 58 degrees) have wide high-bounce soles (13 and 11 degrees, respectively). Extra bounce helps me get up and down from tight lies."

 

 

Now doesn't that just toss conventional wisdom out the window?

 

Most of us know what bounce is, how to measure it and what it supposedly does for a club ... or do we?

 

BTW, here's what Maltby has to say:

 

When a golf course has very tight lies, the first thing many clubfitters do is recommend less bounce so the golfer can “get down after the ball”. This is great if you are a tour pro who can work magic with a wedge because they hit a zillion shots a day practicing. It is just the opposite for average golfers. The tighter the lie, the more the tendency to hit the ball fat. And, as soon as we hit a few fat we start hitting a few thin to compensate. What we need is more “effective bounce” so that we have less margin for error in digging the leading edge into the ground. So now we do not need to hit the perfect “nip” shot but rather we can hit just behind the ball to a little more back behind the ball and the sole will not dig, but rather slide under the ball and loft it onto the green. It’s simply more forgiving.

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I know [b]Bounce[/b] has been discussed a zillion times, but I'm no more clear on it today than I was 20 years ago. I know exactly what it does in sand and how to manipulate it ... apparently I still can't figure out what it does or doesn't do in other situations.

We all know the "Sliders or Pickers" need less bounce than Diggers ... you can read that anywhere.

Conventional wisdom is that tight lies demand lower bounce and softer/thicker lies require more bounce.

Then comes Hunter Mahan in this month's Golf Digest:

[color=#000080][i]"My Ping Tour Gorge wedges (53 and 58 degrees) have wide high-bounce soles (13 and 11 degrees, respectively). [b]Extra bounce helps me get up and down from tight lies.[/b]"[/i][/color]


Now doesn't that just toss conventional wisdom out the window?

Most of us know what bounce is, how to measure it and what it supposedly does for a club ... or do we?

BTW, here's what Maltby has to say:

[size=4][i][color=#4C4C4C]When a golf course has very tight lies, the first thing many clubfitters do is recommend less bounce so the golfer can “get down after the ball”. This is great if you are a tour pro who can work magic with a wedge because they hit a zillion shots a day practicing. It is just the opposite for average golfers. The tighter the lie, the more the tendency to hit the ball fat. And, as soon as we hit a few fat we start hitting a few thin to compensate. What we need is more “effective bounce” so that we have less margin for error in digging the leading edge into the ground. So now we do not need to hit the perfect “nip” shot but rather we can hit just behind the ball to a little more back behind the ball and the sole will not dig, but rather slide under the ball and loft it onto the green. It’s simply more forgiving.[/color][/i][/size]

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Hunter needs the bounce cause he struggles with his wedge play

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlha0J2KB5M

the bounce gives him the forgiveness he needs for confidence

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Within reason and to a certain extent, "plenty" of bounce and more importantly "effective bounce", makes a club more forgiving in it's turf interaction for many players.

For example, if you happen to touch the turf a smidge before the ball, a club with more effective bounce will not "snag" as much or sometimes not at all. Leading to better misses on contact that is not clean and pure. Equals a more forgiving club

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The thing is Brian, the vast majority of us play courses with tight lies and fluffy lies, that are firm and soft--all within the same course (it's not like one course has only one type of condition!). The bounce thing is confusing to me as well. What are we supposed to do, carry six wedges? Tight, firm, fluffy, soft, etc?

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Well, this winter JP switched from a 6-8 bounce gap wedge to a 14* bounce.
Experiments abound for ho's.

We'll see. The new wedge does seem to launch higher, not sure about ball flight control....JP switched due to wet, sloppy seasonal turf.

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Bounce alone is a meaningless spec with out knowing the players intended use and typical AoA.

A lot of bounce for one could easily be too little for another.

Aka, like most everything in golf, you can't just take one persons random situation and apply it across the board or likely even to "you".

The forums are full of this and this is why so often people "learn" so much yet stay confused in practice.

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[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1389459626' post='8441431']
The thing is Brian, the vast majority of us play courses with tight lies and fluffy lies, that are firm and soft--all within the same course (it's not like one course has only one type of condition!). The bounce thing is confusing to me as well. What are we supposed to do, carry six wedges? Tight, firm, fluffy, soft, etc?
[/quote]
True - Lots of players car 1 high bounce wedge and 1 md or low bounce wedge. I have a 14 bounce in my 54 degree and 9 bounce in my 58. Hard sand to medium hard sand bunkers I used by 58, if it really soft powdery sand I take the 54 so I can glide through the sand better. Same goes for turf conditions on my 80 yards and in shots, really soft condition I take the 54 and alter my swing length for yardage. Mid summer firm tight conditions the 58 is better.

I am wanting to get a MackDaddy 2 (58) with the "u" grind this year and see how it plays in both.

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[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1389459626' post='8441431']
The thing is Brian, the vast majority of us play courses with tight lies and fluffy lies, that are firm and soft--all within the same course (it's not like one course has only one type of condition!). The bounce thing is confusing to me as well. What are we supposed to do, carry six wedges? Tight, firm, fluffy, soft, etc?
[/quote]

Find a "middle ground" in bounce and sole design that works from the average normal conditions that you encounter. Then learn how to make your adjustments to different lies from there.

Same thing with lie angle. Find the lie angles that fit from a level stance, then learn how to adjust to uneven stances and lies

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[quote name='Cwebb' timestamp='1389463742' post='8441775']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1389459626' post='8441431']
The thing is Brian, the vast majority of us play courses with tight lies and fluffy lies, that are firm and soft--all within the same course (it's not like one course has only one type of condition!). The bounce thing is confusing to me as well. What are we supposed to do, carry six wedges? Tight, firm, fluffy, soft, etc?
[/quote]

Find a "middle ground" in bounce and sole design that works from the average normal conditions that you encounter. Then learn how to make your adjustments to different lies from there.

Same thing with lie angle. Find the lie angles that fit from a level stance, then learn how to adjust to uneven stances and lies
[/quote]

That was my thought: not too much bounce, but not to little either. Oy vey...as if this game isn't complicated enough. :-)

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Ugh! I've been researching some new wedges for the last couple days and have read too much into the "bounce"

Honestly, I don't think I'm good enough to have a wedge designed specifically around a particular lie each and every shot. I need something that works well in most conditions and lies and just work on my wedge play with what I've got.

That being said, can someone please recommend an average bounce for 50* - 52*, and 56* - 58*? I give up on my research and have confused myself enough. To make matters worse, I'm a digger and sweeper, depending on lie, distance, etc.

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[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1389468908' post='8442111']
[quote name='Cwebb' timestamp='1389463742' post='8441775']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1389459626' post='8441431']
The thing is Brian, the vast majority of us play courses with tight lies and fluffy lies, that are firm and soft--all within the same course (it's not like one course has only one type of condition!). The bounce thing is confusing to me as well. What are we supposed to do, carry six wedges? Tight, firm, fluffy, soft, etc?
[/quote]

Find a "middle ground" in bounce and sole design that works from the average normal conditions that you encounter. Then learn how to make your adjustments to different lies from there.

Same thing with lie angle. Find the lie angles that fit from a level stance, then learn how to adjust to uneven stances and lies
[/quote]

That was my thought: not too much bounce, but not to little either. Oy vey...as if this game isn't complicated enough. :-)
[/quote]

It's the most complicated game going, by far.

Rule of thumb: If in doubt, if you're still "confused" for one reason or another,... choose the wedge that has a little more bounce, not the option with "low bounce". As a generalization this will stack the odds more in your favor when deciding on this detail

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When I lived in Arizona I carried wedges with the lowest bounce possible because the lies were so tight and the bunkers had very little sand. When I moved to Florida I went with wedges with the highest bounce because the lies weren't as tight but mainly because the bunkers had so much sand in them. Now that I'm back in Ohio I've went to medium bounce wedges because I experience both types of conditions.

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[quote name='Cwebb' timestamp='1389469720' post='8442171']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1389468908' post='8442111']
[quote name='Cwebb' timestamp='1389463742' post='8441775']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1389459626' post='8441431']
The thing is Brian, the vast majority of us play courses with tight lies and fluffy lies, that are firm and soft--all within the same course (it's not like one course has only one type of condition!). The bounce thing is confusing to me as well. What are we supposed to do, carry six wedges? Tight, firm, fluffy, soft, etc?
[/quote]

Find a "middle ground" in bounce and sole design that works from the average normal conditions that you encounter. Then learn how to make your adjustments to different lies from there.

Same thing with lie angle. Find the lie angles that fit from a level stance, then learn how to adjust to uneven stances and lies
[/quote]

That was my thought: not too much bounce, but not to little either. Oy vey...as if this game isn't complicated enough. :-)
[/quote]

It's the most complicated game going, by far.

Rule of thumb: If in doubt, if you're still "confused" for one reason or another,... choose the wedge that has a little more bounce, not the option with "low bounce". As a generalization this will stack the odds more in your favor when deciding on this detail
[/quote]

Thank you...I appreciate it. :-)

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[quote name='Break81' timestamp='1389462745' post='8441693']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1389459626' post='8441431']
The thing is Brian, the vast majority of us play courses with tight lies and fluffy lies, that are firm and soft--all within the same course (it's not like one course has only one type of condition!). The bounce thing is confusing to me as well. What are we supposed to do, carry six wedges? Tight, firm, fluffy, soft, etc?
[/quote]
True - Lots of players car 1 high bounce wedge and 1 md or low bounce wedge. I have a 14 bounce in my 54 degree and 9 bounce in my 58. Hard sand to medium hard sand bunkers I used by 58, if it really soft powdery sand I take the 54 so I can glide through the sand better. Same goes for turf conditions on my 80 yards and in shots, really soft condition I take the 54 and alter my swing length for yardage. Mid summer firm tight conditions the 58 is better.

I am wanting to get a MackDaddy 2 (58) with the "u" grind this year and see how it plays in both.
[/quote]I carry a Mizuno MP T 11 in 56 w/13 degrre of bounce and a 60 w/ 6 degrees. The course I play has 2 types of bunkers: Fluffy and hard packed. They both look the same, The hard packed ones have a hard bottom with just a thin layer of sand. When I used my 56 in the hard bottom, the club bounces into the ball and sends it across the green into the next fairway! My 60 will work fine in the hard bottoms but it is just knowing when to use it!

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Here's a post I wrote sometime back about bounce and what I've learned about bounce. I hope this is helpful and you can interpret it for what it means in terms of playability.

 

duff, you're my boy so i'm gonna give you the facts about wedges, bounce, etc. before I continue, forgive me for the oober long post.

 

i'm probably going to get crucified for saying this, but oh well. after doing some thinking, math, and talking a ton with my clubmaker (who grinds for 6 tour players, one of which who won a recent major), I've learned a TON about bounce and wedges, and how much we've kind of been duped.

 

there's two kinds of bounce with any golf club. the bounce angle, and the effective bounce. so you get the full understanding of what I'm saying I highly suggest you get a wedge in hand and use it to visualize what i'm explaining.

 

imagine you have a 52 degree wedge with 10 degrees of bounce and just for sake call it a 62* lie angle. Now imagine you put that same 52 degree in a loft and lie machine and set the wedge square, meaning that the loft reads 52 degrees, and the lie reads 62 degrees. the bounce angle is the angle between the planar loft of the wedge, and the point at which the sole of the wedge first touches the ground (or in this case the base of the loft and lie machine). That's what we call the bounce angle (as I'm sure you're well aware of).

 

most people are familiar with the bounce angle, but that's not the important part. the important part is the effective bounce. If you go back to that loft and lie machine visualization, recall that point where the club first touches the ground (the tangent point). Now imagine you draw a line on that wedge where that initial tangent point is. now take any point on that line, and draw a straight line back to the back edge of the sole. that's what we call the effective bounce of the club. it's not an angle, it's the area behind the tangent point of the sole.

 

if you're still a little confused it's fine, it's much easier to see this in person and with a wedge in hand.

 

the effective bounce is, you guessed it, the only bounce that makes contact with the turf. so now take your cleveland or vokey or callaway or whatever wedge you want. now look at that sole and visualize where that tangent point is and the area of the sole behind that tangent point. most likely, the length from the tangent point to the back edge of the sole is most likely going to be less than a quarter of an inch, maybe a third of an inch? it entirely depends on how wide the sole is, that's what determines the effective bounce.

 

now add this variable, shaft lean. moving the shaft one way or another alters the loft which directly changes the bounce. here's an example.

 

ASSUMPTIONS:

 

wedge length is 35" = radius of the circle ®

one degree change in loft = one degree change in bounce angle (this is usually true but can vary slightly)

 

ex:

imagine the club head is the center of a circle, and the shaft rotated from one end of the floor to the other creates a half circle. if you could extend this through the floor, it would create a full circle. so, given our 35" length, let's do some math. the circumference of a circle is given by pi*d where d = 2®.

 

circumference = pi*2r = 219.911486 inches. since we're only working with half a circle, let's divide that by two and call that arc.

 

arc = circumference/2 = 109.955743 inches. because the arc is half a circle, we can set up a relationship between the interior angle of the circle at its center point and the arc length in inches. because it's half a circle, the total angle floor to floor is 180 degrees.

 

so, 109.955743 inches / 180 degrees = 0.61086524 inches/degree, or... 0.61086524 inches on the arc = 1 interior degree angle.

now let's say we use a forward press of 6 inches on a shot, that delofts the club by 10 degrees and reduces the bounce by 10 degrees! think about that for a minute!

 

Basically, unless you're a really really really consistent player who recreates the same angles over and over and over, you're much better off using a low bounce wedge, i.e., lots of effective bounce, or one of those nice wide sole wedges. the math i've shown you helps explain my issue with this idea that bounce is so damn important. first off, you're supposed to hit the ball before the ground.

 

people who say they fat a wedge shot because the wedge is too low bounce are entirely wrong, you have to hit the ball first, that's like the rule of ball striking. it has nothing to do with bounce, but instead has to do with the confidence. let's say you go into a golf store and you're looking for new wedges. you tell the guy you play a 52/6 and you play in soft conditions. they guy will most likely say "ahh no wonder your wedge game is bad! you're hitting it fat because you don't have enough bounce. here, let me get you a vokey/cleveland/callaway/nike/any damn wedge company with 12 degrees of bounce. that should cure your problem!" it has entirely to do with the angles that you present to the ball, and very little to do with bounce.

 

One of the reasons that bob vokey got his claim to fame was because he sold a ton of wedges by using bounce as a marketing tool. then you have all the other manufacturers trying to keep up and writing bounce on wedges because it worked for vokey and he sold a ton of wedges. basically it's just a marketing tool. we all should be using a nice wide soled wedge with low bounce. bounce angle is basically irrelevant because of the shaft lean. most of us don't replicate the same angles every time, so it doesn't matter what the bounce angle is on a wedge. for the purposes of not thinning a shot, a low bounce wedge is better and leads to a higher effective bounce angle. effective bounce is the ONLY thing that alters the digging or whatever of a wedge shot.

 

hope this helps with your understanding of wedges and leads you to wedge-heaven.

 

DSC_0070-X3.jpg

 

 

DSC_0071-X3.jpg

[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1006275-rbhan12s-witb-m10-damascus-twins-added/"]http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1006275-rbhan12s-witb-m10-damascus-twins-added/[/url]

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Thanks, I think you've confirmed one of my own long held beliefs, that "Bounce" as it's stamped on the bottom of a club, means nothing!

I'm going to have to think about this a little more, but if you're saying what I think you're saying, knowing/understanding/considering "bounce" doesn't help me make a partial wedge shot, knowing how I want to manipulate the club and get the ball to do what I want it to do is the critical part.

In other words (going back to our comments on the other thread about lie angle), if I hit the ball first, it really doesn't much matter what the bounce is, because the ball has already left the club face. If I'm making a partial shot where I may not strike the ball first (or at all in the case of a bunker), the shape of the sole might influence how I want to swing (shallow, steep, in-out) and where I want the bottom of my swing?

On another train of thought, using an "old fashioned" wedge from the 60's-70's, we would open the wedge to increase bounce, close it to decrease bounce. I think what you're saying is, even with new wedges that have heel relief or other custom grinds, we can change the amount of effective bounce, by controlling shaft lean.

Am I getting close?

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[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1389574279' post='8449075']
Thanks, I think you've confirmed one of my own long held beliefs, that "Bounce" as it's stamped on the bottom of a club, means nothing!

I'm going to have to think about this a little more, but if you're saying what I think you're saying, knowing/understanding/considering "bounce" doesn't help me make a partial wedge shot, knowing how I want to manipulate the club and get the ball to do what I want it to do is the critical part.

In other words (going back to our comments on the other thread about lie angle), if I hit the ball first, it really doesn't much matter what the bounce is, because the ball has already left the club face. If I'm making a partial shot where I may not strike the ball first (or at all in the case of a bunker), the shape of the sole might influence how I want to swing (shallow, steep, in-out) and where I want the bottom of my swing?

On another train of thought, using an "old fashioned" wedge from the 60's-70's, we would open the wedge to increase bounce, close it to decrease bounce. I think what you're saying is, even with new wedges that have heel relief or other custom grinds, we can change the amount of effective bounce, by controlling shaft lean.

Am I getting close?
[/quote]

Exactly, as long as you're hitting the ball first then it doesn't really matter. Opening and closing the face is a great way to change the loft and the bounce, as is shaft lean.

[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1006275-rbhan12s-witb-m10-damascus-twins-added/"]http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1006275-rbhan12s-witb-m10-damascus-twins-added/[/url]

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[quote name='rbhan12' timestamp='1389574837' post='8449119']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1389574279' post='8449075']
Thanks, I think you've confirmed one of my own long held beliefs, that "Bounce" as it's stamped on the bottom of a club, means nothing!

I'm going to have to think about this a little more, but if you're saying what I think you're saying, knowing/understanding/considering "bounce" doesn't help me make a partial wedge shot, knowing how I want to manipulate the club and get the ball to do what I want it to do is the critical part.

In other words (going back to our comments on the other thread about lie angle), if I hit the ball first, it really doesn't much matter what the bounce is, because the ball has already left the club face. If I'm making a partial shot where I may not strike the ball first (or at all in the case of a bunker), the shape of the sole might influence how I want to swing (shallow, steep, in-out) and where I want the bottom of my swing?

On another train of thought, using an "old fashioned" wedge from the 60's-70's, we would open the wedge to increase bounce, close it to decrease bounce. I think what you're saying is, even with new wedges that have heel relief or other custom grinds, we can change the amount of effective bounce, by controlling shaft lean.

Am I getting close?
[/quote]

Exactly, as long as you're hitting the ball first then it doesn't really matter. Opening and closing the face is a great way to change the loft and the bounce, as is shaft lean.
[/quote]

Now I know I'm probably abusing your generosity with your time to explain this, but a further question, because you're forcing me to think more clearly about this issue.

Bounce/effective bounce/sole width are all irrelevant, unless you're using the ground or the sand to help with a shot ... correct?

In other words, bounce helps us get the ball out of a bunker, because our "margin of error" is too small if we don't use the sand to move the ball ?

& on partial shots from turf, hardpan, etc, bounce/sole shape *may* be useful to expand our margin of error ?

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Before I continue, I want to explain to you how I think. As we look closer and closer into the game of golf, it becomes a game of degrees and numbers. When it comes to loft, lie, bounce, whatever it is I'm thinking of, I like to think of the extreme example. For example to explain the idea of hitting a ball on a hill where it's above your feet, I came to that conclusion by imagining hitting a golf ball off of my living room wall and imagining what the ball flight would look like. Use your imagination and visualization to examine the extreme example and the neutral example. If there's a discrepancy in the end result between the extreme and the neutral conditions, every condition between the neutral and the extreme will have a different outcome, and will have a trend.

In my opinion, bounce angle is irrelevant, and a high bounce angle if anything makes a quality center strike harder simply because the leading edge is higher off the ground. It would require a noticeable amount of shaft lean to get the leading edge of a high bounce wedge to touch the ground. A low bounce angle keeps that leading edge lower and inherently makes it easier to make good contact.

People say that a high bounce angle prevents digging. They also say that they have a steep angle of attack and a lot of shaft lean. In the calculation I did in the monster post, I showed you how much shaft leans changes loft and bounce. I also showed you that effective bounce is the area of the sole that is in contact with the turf. If you have a wedge with 12 degrees of bounce and your impact conditions result in a 12 degree shaft lean, the area between the leading edge and the tangent point for the club in a neutral position becomes the effective bounce (the area of the sole in contact with the turf).

Effective bounce is the only thing that can prevent digging, because it's the only part of the wedge that's in contact with the turf. If you increase the sole width, chances are you're increasing the effective bounce of the club, but that depends on the sole design as well. Here's an extreme example, think of a Ping G20 6 iron sole versus an S55 6 iron sole. Which do you think has more effective bounce?

I personally believe bounce angle is quite irrelevant, but that effective bounce is the important part (ever wonder why it's called "effective bounce"?).

You asked "[color=#282828]Bounce/effective bounce/sole width are all irrelevant, unless you're using the ground or the sand to help with a shot ... correct?" I would say you are correct except for the bounce angle. Use your visualization and think of an extreme condition. Think of using a wedge with 89 degrees of bounce, and more importantly how high that leading edge is going to be from the ground! That extreme condition is a perfect example of why I absolutely cannot stand a high bounce wedge for anything but my sand wedge (though the effective bounce is quite high too). [/color][color=#282828]For partial shots like flops for example, sole grind becomes extremely important. You'll need a lot of heel relief and most likely a low bounce wedge to get that leading edge to sit low enough to the ground to maintain the increased loft from opening the face without skulling the ball. [/color]

[color=#282828]Hope this helps![/color]

[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1006275-rbhan12s-witb-m10-damascus-twins-added/"]http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1006275-rbhan12s-witb-m10-damascus-twins-added/[/url]

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[quote name='rbhan12' timestamp='1389577349' post='8449379']

Effective bounce is the only thing that can prevent digging, because it's the only part of the wedge that's in contact with the turf. If you increase the sole width, chances are you're increasing the effective bounce of the club, but that depends on the sole design as well. Here's an extreme example, think of a Ping G20 6 iron sole versus an S55 6 iron sole. Which do you think has more effective bounce?


[color=#282828]Hope this helps![/color]

[/quote]

It helps a lot, thanks ... I've been giving this a lot of thought lately as I've been struggling with pitching and chipping, when I'm at my home in Florida and dealing with Bermuda ... I don't have problems at home.

It's interesting that you used PING for an example. I typically played blades or at least a very compact, traditional head, until I switched to PINGS a year or two ago. When I read their specs, the amount of "bounce" worried me, but it hasn't been a problem. I see now, that part of the explanation is the "effective bounce" thing ... PINGS have enough offset built into their hosels, that some of the bounce is already muted by shaft angle. Another mystery solved!

I really appreciate you taking the time to explain!

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Sole properties is a game of its own, and way to large to go down in all details, so ill try to make this short

Static Bounce is "just" the sole angle vs the shaft
Effective bounce is the sole area who works as bounce
Sole length makes a difference to how high above the ground leading edge will end up
10 Bounce and 0.5 inch long sole, vs 10 bounce and 0.75 inch sole length makes a difference to how high above ground leading edge will be at 0* AoA,

On a clean shot, bounce does not matter ON THE FIRST SHOT....and thats where the problem is
A player with a steep angle of attack, who pures it, will experience a wedge that digs AFTER impact depending on sole properties, and his feedback from this shot influence on the next. If he feels that he is digging to much, he will start to compensate, and swing in a matter thats not natural for him to prevent that digging, who DOES NOT influence on his shot, but his feedback from the shot. So even if the shot itself was perfect, feedback from digging to much will make him to change the way he makes the next.

We all do mistakes, we never hit only pure shots, and then the players miss hits tendencies comes to play
A player with a steep angle off attack will have the fat ones as his typical miss, and then sole properties can deliver some forgiveness for that. By using a higher static bounce, a longer sole wide leading edge to trailing edge, and a blunted leading edge for those WAY to steep, he can improve quality of ball contact and prower transfer to the ball.

When this player gets a wedge with sole properties that fits his swing style, he will save his wrists and elbows who will suffer even on pured shots if bounce is to low (digging after the ball has left), and he will get some forgiveness on fat shots, and also on them he will have less stress to his wrists and elbows.

The thing is, We are humans, we think we are smart but we are mostly stupid (using less than 10% of our brains), so we try to compensate our swing to prevent bad feedback from the equipment, just like a player who is playing a shaft to stiff will try to load harder.What we feel and experience makes us to change the way we do the next shot, and then we are "loosing our game"

When sole properties is good for the player, the difference between flushed and not so good will be less, and feedback from the shots does not say "do something else the next time"

So, no matter equipment, NEVER underestimate what FEEDBACK from the shot does to the players mental state, because Golf IS a mental game where the longest distance we play is from the left to right ear.

DO NOT SEND PMs WITH CLUB TECH QUESTIONS - USE THE PUBLIC FORUM.

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^^ this is true Howard, thanks for your reply. However, maybe I'm just one of the loonies on here, but I personally enjoy the feeling of a wedge digging so it doesn't cause any problem for me :)

[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1006275-rbhan12s-witb-m10-damascus-twins-added/"]http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1006275-rbhan12s-witb-m10-damascus-twins-added/[/url]

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[quote name='Howard Jones' timestamp='1389586155' post='8450217']
Sole properties is a game of its own, and way to large to go down in all details, so ill try to make this short

Static Bounce is "just" the sole angle vs the shaft
Effective bounce is the sole area who works as bounce
Sole length makes a difference to how high above the ground leading edge will end up
10 Bounce and 0.5 inch long sole, vs 10 bounce and 0.75 inch sole length makes a difference to how high above ground leading edge will be at 0* AoA,

On a clean shot, bounce does not matter ON THE FIRST SHOT....and thats where the problem is
A player with a steep angle of attack, who pures it, will experience a wedge that digs AFTER impact depending on sole properties, and his feedback from this shot influence on the next. If he feels that he is digging to much, he will start to compensate, and swing in a matter thats not natural for him to prevent that digging, who DOES NOT influence on his shot, but his feedback from the shot. So even if the shot itself was perfect, feedback from digging to much will make him to change the way he makes the next.

We all do mistakes, we never hit only pure shots, and then the players miss hits tendencies comes to play
A player with a steep angle off attack will have the fat ones as his typical miss, and then sole properties can deliver some forgiveness for that. By using a higher static bounce, a longer sole wide leading edge to trailing edge, and a blunted leading edge for those WAY to steep, he can improve quality of ball contact and prower transfer to the ball.

When this player gets a wedge with sole properties that fits his swing style, he will save his wrists and elbows who will suffer even on pured shots if bounce is to low (digging after the ball has left), and he will get some forgiveness on fat shots, and also on them he will have less stress to his wrists and elbows.

The thing is, We are humans, we think we are smart but we are mostly stupid (using less than 10% of our brains), so we try to compensate our swing to prevent bad feedback from the equipment, just like a player who is playing a shaft to stiff will try to load harder.What we feel and experience makes us to change the way we do the next shot, and then we are "loosing our game"

When sole properties is good for the player, the difference between flushed and not so good will be less, and feedback from the shots does not say "do something else the next time"

So, no matter equipment, NEVER underestimate what FEEDBACK from the shot does to the players mental state, because Golf IS a mental game where the longest distance we play is from the left to right ear.
[/quote]

I'll argue with most any "club fitter" on this board or anywhere else, other than you Howard. You always seem to have the totality of golf in the back of your head and you're able to clearly think through the implications of equipment specifications, rather than rely on old wive's tales and "conventional wisdom".

Good job, as always.

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[quote name='Fourmyle of Ceres' timestamp='1389463695' post='8441773']
The details are way above my pay grade but there seem to be two schools of thought for chipping/pitching the ball from tight lies. One could be called "use the bounce" and the other "nip it cleanly" or something like that.

Maybe Hunter Mahan is an adherent of the "use the bounce" school.
[/quote]


The two "schools" you mention are maybe not only be true for wedges but also for shorter irons like 8 or 9 including PW:

- Ping with a clear tendency towards high bounce (Iron 8: 8*, PW: 12*)
- Mizuno and Titleist with low bounce (4-7*)
- Callaway or Taylor Made somewhere in between

That might be an explanation why i never got along with neither Ping nor with Mizuno/Titleist iron and always had better results with Callaway or Taylor made.
Of course bounce is just one element but it's an important one.

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^^ People do tend to overlook the bounce on their irons. I personally haven't experienced any issues between manufacturers but I know some people definitely have.

[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1006275-rbhan12s-witb-m10-damascus-twins-added/"]http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1006275-rbhan12s-witb-m10-damascus-twins-added/[/url]

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