Hogan's Rotate the Baseball Bat Quote

 dairic ·  
dairicdairic Members  1098WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,098
Joined:  edited Jan 22, 2014 in Hogan's Heroes Swing Forum #1
[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]"Most people are too upright because they disconnect the arms from the body. My left arm swung right across my chest on the backswing and was the strongest part of my downswing. It's almost impossible to get your body out of position and come back to the ball badly. The idea is to rotate the club with the left arm. [/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]Poor players and even some tour players try to do it with the right arm. You have to do it with the left arm"[/background]
<br />
<br />
[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]"I rolled the face of the club open away from the ball. That cupped the left wrist. Coming down, the face was moving so fast I couldn't turn it over and hook. I was rotating the club like a baseball bat, and the after I could rotate it, the more distance I got. [/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]Training myself, I would roll the face open as fast and as far as I could. With this technique, I could hit the ball straight and farther."[/background]
<br />
<br />
<br />
So do batters rotate the bat or use pivot and push?<br />
<br />
Batters use a hand swivel (rotate the bat) to whip bat into the ball according to video.<br />
<br />
It's interesting that dragging the handle is also a problem in baseball.<br />
<br />
WARNING: I know nothing about swinging a baseball bat.<br />
<br />
/>
<br />
Posted:
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  • dairicdairic Members  1098WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,098
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  • dairicdairic Members  1098WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,098
    Joined:  edited Jan 23, 2014 #3
    This is a good one. <br />
    <br />
    Left wrist cupped at the top, bowed and supinating at impact.<br />
    <br />
    [media=]
    Posted:
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  • moehoganmoehogan Members  1115WRX Points: 167Posts: 1,115 Platinum Tees
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    dairic wrote:
    <br />
    Left wrist cupped at the top, bowed and supinating at impact.<br />
    <br />
    [media=] />
    <br />
    <br />
    Yep. Notice the right hand working "under", trying to hold its supination through impact, creating an opposing force or torque against the supinating left ... the result is rotational equilibrium through impact. The harder you try to turn the left CCW against the right that is turning CW, the more pronounced the bow in the left wrist. For a golfer this means a very stable clubface that stays square to the arc until the hands pass midline of the body ... that's when the right hand supinating torque can no longer be maintained. Hello finish swivel.<br />
    <br />
    You think maybe Sam Byrd knew?
    Posted:
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • ej002ej002 Unregistered  5129WRX Points: 3Posts: 5,129 Titanium Tees
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    Awesome finds D. You can't argue with Puljos or Manny. I would put Bonds in this category also. However, I am not sure that this is anything new and I think that this can be done with the lead hand also.<br />
    <br />
    All that is going on here is the bat head is being tipped back creating what we call the pitch elbow. Allows the hitter to get on plane with the pitch. It's kind if instinctive. If a batter were to try and hit a ball into the ground - a bit choppy and over the top downward - the bat head would not tip back and you wouldn't have that elbow action.... Basically the batter would be steep.<br />
    <br />
    The cool thing is that another way of saying what I think this guy is saying - it the motion of "throwing the bat head at the ball." Not a hand drag / pushing extending. The motion of throwing the bat head on a level plane allows the body to react to the pitch and rotate properly. I personally struggled with a punchy elbow draggy golf swing, but have recently made great strides by basically "flipping" the club head at the ball. Much more pitch and better overall mechanics. <br />
    <br />
    Only major difference is that a bat doesn't have a club face. So when you tip back and pitch elbow a club, you need to be aware of the face.
    Posted:
  • ej002ej002 Unregistered  5129WRX Points: 3Posts: 5,129 Titanium Tees
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    Following up on Moes comment - the wrist conditions are very different. Baseball top hand could be cupped - depending on grip. Not much bend in the bottom wrist. So Moe is right you need some bend and bow.
    Posted:
  • dairicdairic Members  1098WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,098
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    ej002 wrote:
    <br />
    Awesome finds D. You can't argue with Puljos or Manny. I would put Bonds in this category also. However, I am not sure that this is anything new and I think that this can be done with the lead hand also.<br />
    <br />
    All that is going on here is the bat head is being tipped back creating what we call the pitch elbow. Allows the hitter to get on plane with the pitch. It's kind if instinctive. If a batter were to try and hit a ball into the ground - a bit choppy and over the top downward - the bat head would not tip back and you wouldn't have that elbow action.... Basically the batter would be steep.<br />
    <br />
    The cool thing is that another way of saying what I think this guy is saying - it the motion of "throwing the bat head at the ball." Not a hand drag / pushing extending. The motion of throwing the bat head on a level plane allows the body to react to the pitch and rotate properly. I personally struggled with a punchy elbow draggy golf swing, but have recently made great strides by basically "flipping" the club head at the ball. Much more pitch and better overall mechanics.<br />
    <br />
    Only major difference is that a bat doesn't have a club face. So when you tip back and pitch elbow a club, you need to be aware of the face.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    I like the idea of "throwing the bat head at the ball."<br />
    <br />
    I've been working on "flipping the club head at the ball" also in the last year or so. I tend to pull the handle a bit too much leaving the club face open. I sometimes even change my grip to a ten finger grip to increase freedom in the wrists. You have to be very aware of sequencing when doing this to prevent the body from stalling and hitting huge hooks because of the pitch elbow and oily hinges, but it's amazing how well I can strike the ball with that grip. I have small hands for a dude, and my trailing hand is not my dominant hand like almost everyone else, I've wondered if 10 fingers are better for me.
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  • dairicdairic Members  1098WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,098
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    moehogan wrote:
    <br />
    dairic wrote:
    <br />
    Left wrist cupped at the top, bowed and supinating at impact.<br />
    <br />
    [media=] />
    <br />
    <br />
    Yep. Notice the right hand working "under", trying to hold its supination through impact, creating an opposing force or torque against the supinating left ... the result is rotational equilibrium through impact. The harder you try to turn the left CCW against the right that is turning CW, the more pronounced the bow in the left wrist. For a golfer this means a very stable clubface that stays square to the arc until the hands pass midline of the body ... that's when the right hand supinating torque can no longer be maintained. Hello finish swivel.<br />
    <br />
    You think maybe Sam Byrd knew?<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Interesting. Do you see Hogan's holding right hand supination through impact?
    Posted:
  • TheBoomer TheBoomer Members  3442WRX Points: 171Posts: 3,442 Titanium Tees
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    The 2 quotes in your original post are awesome.<br />
    <br />
    Great Videos as well.
    Posted:
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  • tembolo1284tembolo1284 Boom Boom Banned  20715WRX Points: 1Handicap: BeefPosts: 20,715 Titanium Tees
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    great posts D!
    Posted:
  • moehoganmoehogan Members  1115WRX Points: 167Posts: 1,115 Platinum Tees
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    dairic wrote:
    <br />
    moehogan wrote:
    <br />
    dairic wrote:
    <br />
    Left wrist cupped at the top, bowed and supinating at impact.<br />
    <br />
    [media=] />
    <br />
    <br />
    Yep. Notice the right hand working "under", trying to hold its supination through impact, creating an opposing force or torque against the supinating left ... the result is rotational equilibrium through impact. The harder you try to turn the left CCW against the right that is turning CW, the more pronounced the bow in the left wrist. For a golfer this means a very stable clubface that stays square to the arc until the hands pass midline of the body ... that's when the right hand supinating torque can no longer be maintained. Hello finish swivel.<br />
    <br />
    You think maybe Sam Byrd knew?<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Interesting. Do you see Hogan's holding right hand supination through impact?<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Trying to! It is resisting the left hand's CCW torque on the handle. The net result is a neutral condition of the left and right through impact. Clubface stability!
    Posted:
  • moehoganmoehogan Members  1115WRX Points: 167Posts: 1,115 Platinum Tees
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    IMO, it's why Mr. H appeared to have a somewhat strong left hand and a very weak right one at address. He was giving himself the space and range of motion to accomplish this dynamic.And NO ... you do NOT get from the pic on the left to the one one the right just by moving the butt end of the grip three inches closer to the target. It's done with the grip pressures that Mr. H refers to in 5L ... using the last three fingers of the left hand and the middle two fingers of the right.<br />
    <br />
    MrHaddressvimpacthands_zpsbc67182a.jpg
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  • dairicdairic Members  1098WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,098
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    moehogan wrote:
    <br />
    IMO, it's why Mr. H appeared to have a somewhat strong left hand and a very weak right one at address. He was giving himself the space and range of motion to accomplish this dynamic.And NO ... you do NOT get from the pic on the left to the one one the right just by moving the butt end of the grip three inches closer to the target. It's done with the grip pressures that Mr. H refers to in 5L ... using the last three fingers of the left hand and the middle two fingers of the right.<br />
    <br />
    MrHaddressvimpacthands_zpsbc67182a.jpg<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    cool. Right wrist definitely looks more supinated at impact when compared to address position that's for sure.
    Posted:
  • tembolo1284tembolo1284 Boom Boom Banned  20715WRX Points: 1Handicap: BeefPosts: 20,715 Titanium Tees
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    Looks like his grip is almost coming apart at impact!!!
    Posted:
  • moehoganmoehogan Members  1115WRX Points: 167Posts: 1,115 Platinum Tees
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    <br />
    Looks like his grip is almost coming apart at impact!!!<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Looks like his grip is almost coming apart at impact!!!<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Turning apart from the top of the handle. Right pinkie pulling up hard against the middle knuckle of the left index finger (with an overlapping grip).
    Posted:
  • tylerdurdentylerdurden Members  1261WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,261
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eQr0kXi2xc&feature=c4-overview&list=UUbAQrm62MeRt4pCeJq5twdA<br />
    <br />
    I've been messing around with some similar stuff. Not trying to "flip it at the ball though" but trying to get that face wide open It's crazy because it stays wide open really late into the DS too.
    Posted:
  • tmfool tmfool Members  1833WRX Points: 116Handicap: 3.4Posts: 1,833 Platinum Tees
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    don't want to discount the baseball analogies - but<br />
    <br />
    the diamond is a little wider than a fairway<br />
    <br />
    ballplayers are trying to hit the ball HARD somewhere between the lines<br />
    <br />
    golfers target a little more precise<br />
    <br />
    apologies for mastering the obvious...
    Posted:
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  • tylerdurdentylerdurden Members  1261WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,261
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    Right but Hogan was obsessed with distance and was one of the longest at ~145 lbs
    Posted:
  • dairicdairic Members  1098WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,098
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    <br />
    [url=&quot; />
    <br />
    I've been messing around with some similar stuff. Not trying to "flip it at the ball though" but trying to get that face wide open It's crazy because it stays wide open really late into the DS too.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Awesome Tyler!!<br />
    <br />
    What's it doing for you to try and open up the face as far as it goes in the backswing? I remember that last year you were struggling with pushes...is this helping? In that video it looks like you might have pulled the ball. <br />
    <br />
    Hogan said that pronation of the lead arm in the backswing can lead to hooks. Must depend on grip strength and be related to that passive torque stuff. Anyhow it should help you get on elbow plane. <br />
    <br />
    BTW the comment about flipping at the ball is not about rolling the wrist to square the face, but instead intentionally losing some bend in the right wrist after P6.
    Posted:
  • tylerdurdentylerdurden Members  1261WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,261
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    Thanks man..<br />
    <br />
    That was hit pretty well but weird camera angle. I'm going to start another thread in a minute (had a very interesting hogan story today) and throw up some video that gives a better look.<br />
    <br />
    I was hitting blocks like crazy up until I saw iteach last year. Then I got straitened out. But I recently moved and hadn't been able to practice much. So I started experimenting a bit more in apartment... so to finally answer your question, I think getting the face very open really just changes the way I come into the ball and my release pattern. I don't know TGM very well but I'll attempt to explain in TGM terms. I think getting the face open helps me get back down to the elbow plane coming into p6 and use more PA3 through impact. I think I'm also horizontal hinging more when I do this (but I really don't even know what that means so I'm just guessing because it feels like a horizontal hinge to me).
    Posted:
  • dairicdairic Members  1098WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,098
    Joined:  edited Feb 2, 2014 #21
    Here's iteach giving an explanation of the TGM hinge types.<br />
    <br />
    [media=]
    Posted:
  • tylerdurdentylerdurden Members  1261WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,261
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    Right yeah so my feel is def horizontal hinging
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  • j2_a2j2_a2 Members  419WRX Points: 0Posts: 419
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    Found this clip, could be a good feel to help with "rotating the barrel to the ball."<br />
    <br />
    Posted:
  • tembolo1284tembolo1284 Boom Boom Banned  20715WRX Points: 1Handicap: BeefPosts: 20,715 Titanium Tees
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    <br />
    Right yeah so my feel is def horizontal hinging<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Yes sir you got that right.
    Posted:
  • JobuJobu Members  1147WRX Points: 1Posts: 1,147 Platinum Tees
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    moehogan wrote:
    <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Yep. Notice the right hand working "under", trying to hold its supination through impact, creating an opposing force or torque against the supinating left ... the result is rotational equilibrium through impact. The harder you try to turn the left CCW against the right that is turning CW, the more pronounced the bow in the left wrist. For a golfer this means a very stable clubface that stays square to the arc until the hands pass midline of the body ... that's when the right hand supinating torque can no longer be maintained. Hello finish swivel.<br />
    <br />
    You think maybe Sam Byrd knew?<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    you are lost!
    Posted:
  • moehoganmoehogan Members  1115WRX Points: 167Posts: 1,115 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  edited Mar 1, 2014 #26
    Jobu wrote:
    <br />
    moehogan wrote:
    <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Yep. Notice the right hand working "under", trying to hold its supination through impact, creating an opposing force or torque against the supinating left ... the result is rotational equilibrium through impact. The harder you try to turn the left CCW against the right that is turning CW, the more pronounced the bow in the left wrist. For a golfer this means a very stable clubface that stays square to the arc until the hands pass midline of the body ... that's when the right hand supinating torque can no longer be maintained. Hello finish swivel.<br />
    <br />
    You think maybe Sam Byrd knew?<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    you are lost!<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    OK, Slugger ... school me!<br />
    <br />
    Explain this ...<br />
    http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af203/moehogan_1/MrHaddressvimpacthands_zpsbc67182a.jpg
    Posted:
  • JobuJobu Members  1147WRX Points: 1Posts: 1,147 Platinum Tees
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    moehogan wrote:
    <br />
    Jobu wrote:
    <br />
    moehogan wrote:
    <br />
    Yep. Notice the right hand working "under", trying to hold its supination through impact, creating an opposing force or torque against the supinating left ... the result is rotational equilibrium through impact. The harder you try to turn the left CCW against the right that is turning CW, the more pronounced the bow in the left wrist. For a golfer this means a very stable clubface that stays square to the arc until the hands pass midline of the body ... that's when the right hand supinating torque can no longer be maintained. Hello finish swivel.<br />
    <br />
    You think maybe Sam Byrd knew?<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    you are lost!<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    OK, Slugger ... school me!<br />
    <br />
    Explain this ...<br />
    http://i1008.photobu...zpsbc67182a.jpg<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    If you were right, you'd have already posted a video showing the same release!
    Posted:
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  • HoganstrikerHoganstriker Unregistered  1290WRX Points: 1Posts: 1,290 Platinum Tees
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    Number one aspect I see that all baseball swings have in common is hard extension of the trail arm.(top hand throw)<br />
    The homerun derby one reflects best what hittters wanna do when they have an idea what pitch is coming.<br />
    A lot of the baseball guys take these videos and slow them down of hitters that are horribly jammed and they love to talk mechanics much like golfers.<br />
    If you were pitching you would want to generally try as much as you can to screw up the hitter so he cannot time the pitch and get that powerful extension.
    Posted:
  • moehoganmoehogan Members  1115WRX Points: 167Posts: 1,115 Platinum Tees
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    Jobu wrote:
    <br />
    moehogan wrote:
    <br />
    Jobu wrote:
    <br />
    moehogan wrote:
    <br />
    Yep. Notice the right hand working "under", trying to hold its supination through impact, creating an opposing force or torque against the supinating left ... the result is rotational equilibrium through impact. The harder you try to turn the left CCW against the right that is turning CW, the more pronounced the bow in the left wrist. For a golfer this means a very stable clubface that stays square to the arc until the hands pass midline of the body ... that's when the right hand supinating torque can no longer be maintained. Hello finish swivel.<br />
    <br />
    You think maybe Sam Byrd knew?<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    you are lost!<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    OK, Slugger ... school me!<br />
    <br />
    Explain this ...<br />
    [url=&quot;http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af203/moehogan_1/MrHaddressvimpacthands_zpsbc67182a.jpg&quot;]http://i1008.photobu...zpsbc67182a.jpg[/url]<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    If you were right, you'd have already posted a video showing the same release!<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Nice dodge ... still waiting for your explanation. Pick any vid you want and stop it at impact, then compare Mr. H's hands ... address vs. impact.
    Posted:
  • JobuJobu Members  1147WRX Points: 1Posts: 1,147 Platinum Tees
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    the hand don't work against each other, just listen to yourself.
    Posted:
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  • moehoganmoehogan Members  1115WRX Points: 167Posts: 1,115 Platinum Tees
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    Jobu wrote:
    <br />
    the hand don't work against each other, just listen to yourself.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    I know exactly what I am saying, and YES, IMO, his hands do work AGAINST each other coming into and through impact. The timing of the dissipation of those opposing forces depends on the particular shot being played and the length of the club. It's done with specific grip pressures.<br />
    <br />
    Very advanced stuff, but you have to have everything else in place or it's just a hot mess. Got to go now but I will try to post some more pics/vids later.
    Posted:
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