Connection vs Extension in Followthrough

 tembolo1284 ·  
tembolo1284tembolo1284 Boom BoomBanned  20715WRX Points: 1Handicap: BeefPosts: 20,715 Titanium Tees
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What do you guys think about this article?<br />
<br />
http://clients.chrisoleary.com/Golf/BenHogan,TigerWoods,Connection,andExtension/tabid/1247/Default.aspx<br />
<br />
Do you think everyone is built to be able to have a bent elbow at impact? This makes me think of guys like Hstead, who clearly believe they shouldn't be swinging like Hogan as their bodies are very different. Would Hstead swing at a baseball in this manner? I'm not sure as I'm no baseball player. Makes one think. What do you guys think about this?
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  • tembolo1284tembolo1284 Boom Boom Banned  20715WRX Points: 1Handicap: BeefPosts: 20,715 Titanium Tees
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  • kellygreenkellygreen Members  6413WRX Points: 3Posts: 6,413 Titanium Tees
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    <br />
    What do you guys think about this article?<br />
    <br />
    http://clients.chris...47/Default.aspx<br />
    <br />
    Do you think everyone is built to be able to have a bent elbow at impact? This makes me think of guys like Hstead, who clearly believe they shouldn't be swinging like Hogan as their bodies are very different. Would Hstead swing at a baseball in this manner? I'm not sure as I'm no baseball player. Makes one think. What do you guys think about this?<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    The baseball swing and the golf swing have a lot in common. The primary benefit of the "connected" baseball swing is that it draws its power from the body core (rather than the arms); has fewer moving parts; and can accelerate the bat faster. As a result it allows the hitter longer to assess the pitch, longer before having to committ to a swing...and therefore less vulnerable to breaking pitches and off-speed pitches.<br />
    <br />
    The connected (or body-rotation) golf swing does many of the same things, and enjoys many of the same benefits. It has fewer moving parts, and it is (for many people) more accurate, and easier to time from one swing to another than the "hand-and-arm" or "classic" swing.<br />
    <br />
    Only when one is drawing power from the rotation of the body core, should the right arm be significantly bent at impact. Because connection is how one controls the path of the club (bat) and how one efficiently transfers that power from the core, to the arms, to the clubhead.<br />
    <br />
    When one is drawing power mainly from the swinging of the arms, then one wants the arms more extended. Because the club isn't being released BY the rotation of the body, but is being relesed PAST the body. This move (in golf) is potentially more powerful, but is more timing-dependant, has more moving parts that need to be kept working in sync, and requires more practice to maintain.<br />
    <br />
    http://www.dispatch.com/content/graphics/2013/06/01/mem-notes-6-1-art-g1bn5mnd-113mem-1-eq08.jpg<br />
    <br />
    http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/usopen10/columns/story?columnist=sobel_jason&id=5224901<br />
    <br />
    Versus this famous body-swinger in his prime playing days...<br />
    <br />
    http://www.kuykendallgolf.com/Members/viewDocument.cfm?ContentID=62
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  • ej002ej002 Unregistered  5129WRX Points: 3Posts: 5,129 Titanium Tees
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    Can you even hit a ball with both arms straight? Even a pure hitter saves some arm for after impact. It is just a matter of where the elbow is and how fast it straightens.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    BTW - I think the baseball swing has less in common with the golf swing that I used to go on about. At least the way that I used to hit. The hand mechanics are completely different IMO.
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  • tembolo1284tembolo1284 Boom Boom Banned  20715WRX Points: 1Handicap: BeefPosts: 20,715 Titanium Tees
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    ej002 wrote:
    <br />
    Can you even hit a ball with both arms straight? Even a pure hitter saves some arm for after impact. It is just a matter of where the elbow is and how fast it straightens.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    BTW - I think the baseball swing has less in common with the golf swing that I used to go on about. At least the way that I used to hit. The hand mechanics are completely different IMO.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    In what sense? I really have no idea. I'd guess being a total baseball layman I'd be way more arms and wrist when hitting a baseball.<br />
    <br />
    I can't imagine doing a 'CP' release with a bat as the ball would be moving around the strike zone...it's not like it's coming in always in the same spot...so that's why I think you need to practice a lot and get a feel to be able to put the barrel of the bat on the ball. Takes a boat load of talent and luck and skill in reading pitches. I'll stick to golf and tennis hehe.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    I'd imagine if you are a good hitter of the baseball then golf should be really easy. Ball striking wise anyway.
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  • kellygreenkellygreen Members  6413WRX Points: 3Posts: 6,413 Titanium Tees
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    ej002 wrote:
    <br />
    Can you even hit a ball with both arms straight? Even a pure hitter saves some arm for after impact. It is just a matter of where the elbow is and how fast it straightens.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    BTW - I think the baseball swing has less in common with the golf swing that I used to go on about. At least the way that I used to hit. The hand mechanics are completely different IMO.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    You can---at least in baseball. But it requires that you reduce the contribution of the body (core) to the motion. You won't see any POWER hitters swing like that black-and-white photo...but you will see many slap/contact/"single" hitters swing that way. <br />
    <br />
    http://www.pinterest.com/pin/491103534336207978/<br />
    <br />
    versus.<br />
    <br />
    http://www.booksonbaseball.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/KGCincy.jpg<br />
    <br />
    (Who had the most naturally effortlessly powerful swings I've ever seen with a baseball bat)<br />
    <br />
    The baseball swing has very little in common with the CLASSIC golf swing...which is more like a baseball throwing motion. Like the old submariner Dan Quissenberry. Which is why (imo) you see more baseball PITCHERS who are low-handicap golfers than position players who are.<br />
    <br />
    But the body rotation golf swing is very similar to the connected (modern) baseball swing...and I think you'll start to see more high-level baseball position players who are also good golfers. Just like you see so many good hockey players who are also good golfers.<br />
    <br />
    http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2012/08/14/rec-league-tips-taking-a-slapshot-and-ultimate-frisbee-passing/<br />
    <br />
    vs.<br />
    <br />
    http://www.booksonbaseball.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/KGCincy.jpg<br />
    <br />
    vs.<br />
    <br />
    any photo of Hunter Mahan or David Duval in his prime.
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  • downtoscratchdowntoscratch Members  1256WRX Points: 55Posts: 1,256 Platinum Tees
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    'Less moving parts'....... really. IMO, there's no such thing. Sure a Stricker swing appears simpler than a Furyk swing but in both cases the entire body is engaged in the action. Less range of movement, less range of motion yes, but less moving parts..... just not a useful phrase when describing a golf swing or even pitching pennies or throwing darts, IMO.
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  • kellygreenkellygreen Members  6413WRX Points: 3Posts: 6,413 Titanium Tees
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    <br />
    ej002 wrote:
    <br />
    Can you even hit a ball with both arms straight? Even a pure hitter saves some arm for after impact. It is just a matter of where the elbow is and how fast it straightens.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    BTW - I think the baseball swing has less in common with the golf swing that I used to go on about. At least the way that I used to hit. The hand mechanics are completely different IMO.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    In what sense? I really have no idea. I'd guess being a total baseball layman I'd be way more arms and wrist when hitting a baseball.<br />
    <br />
    I can't imagine doing a 'CP' release with a bat as the ball would be moving around the strike zone...it's not like it's coming in always in the same spot...so that's why I think you need to practice a lot and get a feel to be able to put the barrel of the bat on the ball. Takes a boat load of talent and luck and skill in reading pitches. I'll stick to golf and tennis hehe.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    I'd imagine if you are a good hitter of the baseball then golf should be really easy. Ball striking wise anyway.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    The task of putting the barrell of the bat on the ball is like any athletic endeavor. It takes a modicum of hand-eye coordination...and talent. Though there are some who believe that people who are "cross dominant" (Right handed and left-eye dominant....like I am) have a slight advantage at it. Frankly I found hitting a baseball to be an easier task than shooting a basketball. But the whole hitter-pitcher duel is a contest of wills and strategy designed to disrupt the hitter's timing and his ability to make a powerful swing that can put the ball in play. Learing about---and learning to combat---the many ways that pitchers can do that, is what presents the challenge of the game. Simply hitting the ball is not difficult once you get to a certain level of the game.<br />
    <br />
    Moving from baseball to golf is not as easy as you think. A regulation baseball bat generally has a "sweetspot" that is about 6 inches in length. Hit the ball anywhere along that six inches...and you'll get optimum energy transfer to the ball. The ball will, however, fly differently depending on where---in relation to the short-axes---the ball strikes it. Hit it below the equator...and you'll get a ground ball. Hit it above, you'll get a fly ball. Way below...a dribbler or foul off the plate. Way above...a pop-fly. Right on the "screws"....you a line drive or a powerful fly ball (depending on the swing arc of the bat). <br />
    <br />
    But the rules give you at least three chances to make contact. It doesn't count unless it is hit between the foul lines (unless someone catches it on the fly), and you don't have to worry about the rotation of a flatted impact surface.<br />
    <br />
    In comparison hitting a golf ball is MUCH more difficult. You are typically swinging a club that is significantly longer than a baseball bat. (The longest bat I ever played with was 34", though I preferred a 33"...less MOI, could accelerate it quicker). You're trying to hit a ball that is significantly smaller..AND you need to hit a much smaller sweet spot on a flat impact surface whose face-angle you need to control in order to hit it to a specific target on a specific trajectory. In order to hit it to a specific target. <br />
    <br />
    ...and you get ONE chance to do it.<br />
    <br />
    If the ball weren't lying on the ground, the task would be d*mn-near impossible. In fact the most jaw-dropping thing that Tiger did in that whole famous wedge-juggling commercial was when he hit the ball off the face of the wedge while basically taking a baseball swing at it in the air. I cannot BEGIN to tell you how much hand-eye coordination that takes. I played baseball---literally---from the time I could walk...played it in college. Played against people who wound up playing it professionally. Plus I've played golf for 20 years. I could a fair amount of what Tiger did in that video...if I took the time to practice it. I couldn't do what he did at the end if my friggin' life depended on it. <br />
    <br />
    Bottomline, the basic body coordination isn't hard to learn....though it can take longer if you are taught the classic swing instead of a body-rotation swing. What IS hard to learn is the precision required...and the need to maintain a consistent rhythm-and-tempo to do it. Especially if you are trying to use the classic swing. Which is why pitchers often master it more easily than hitters. Because--once you pull the trigger as a hitter---you want to accelerate that bat as quickly as possible So that you maximize your odds of correctly identifying the pitch, and meeting it at the point of contact. <br />
    <br />
    Pitchers, OTOH, have to establish a throwing rhythm that (like a golf swing) gives them the best balance of throwing speed (power) and control (accuracy). Which seems to translate readily to golf. Whereas baseball hitters who use a classic golf swing usually hve to learn it as a seperate skill. Because position play just doesn't demand the same degree of throwing accuracy as pitching does.
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  • kellygreenkellygreen Members  6413WRX Points: 3Posts: 6,413 Titanium Tees
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    <br />
    'Less moving parts'....... really. IMO, there's no such thing. Sure a Stricker swing appears simpler than a Furyk swing but in both cases the entire body is engaged in the action. Less range of movement, less range of motion yes, but less moving parts..... just not a useful phrase when describing a golf swing or even pitching pennies or throwing darts, IMO.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Moving parts= parts of your body that are moving INDEPENDANTLY of one another...and therefore have to have their motions SYNCHRONIZED. There DO exist...and it is why "rhythm and tempo" (the means by which that synchronization occurs) is so important in some ways of swinging the club.<br />
    <br />
    Swings that make use of connection and body-rotation make the motion of the arms and the club DEPENDANT upon the motion of the body core..so there is less need for sychronization..and fewer things that can go wrong.<br />
    <br />
    Furyk's BACKSWING has the most number of moving parts of any professional golf swing I've ever seen (which is why David Feherty said it looked like an "Octopus falling out of a tree.") But his DOWNSWING---once his arms re-establish connection to his trunk---is one of the SIMPLEST body-roation motions you'll ever see. Which is why---despite limbs flying everywhere going back---Furyk is such a consistent ball-striker and such a good player under press<br />
    <br />
    https://www.youtube....h?v=d7jePVzL47E<br />
    <br />
    Furyk's motion works for him...because he is a tremendous athlete, and has the ability to get that awkward backswing to repeat. But good luck trying to teach anyone else to swing (consistently) that way.
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  • tembolo1284tembolo1284 Boom Boom Banned  20715WRX Points: 1Handicap: BeefPosts: 20,715 Titanium Tees
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    Great post kelly...makes sense why those pitchers from the atlanta braves are all **** good golfers then.
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  • ej002ej002 Unregistered  5129WRX Points: 3Posts: 5,129 Titanium Tees
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    <br />
    ej002 wrote:
    <br />
    Can you even hit a ball with both arms straight? Even a pure hitter saves some arm for after impact. It is just a matter of where the elbow is and how fast it straightens.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    BTW - I think the baseball swing has less in common with the golf swing that I used to go on about. At least the way that I used to hit. The hand mechanics are completely different IMO.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    In what sense? I really have no idea. I'd guess being a total baseball layman I'd be way more arms and wrist when hitting a baseball.<br />
    <br />
    I can't imagine doing a 'CP' release with a bat as the ball would be moving around the strike zone...it's not like it's coming in always in the same spot...so that's why I think you need to practice a lot and get a feel to be able to put the barrel of the bat on the ball. Takes a boat load of talent and luck and skill in reading pitches. I'll stick to golf and tennis hehe.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    I'd imagine if you are a good hitter of the baseball then golf should be really easy. Ball striking wise anyway.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    I think most guys would be CF for sure - throw the head of the bat at the ball. I think Bonds and Manny are more CPish. Crowded the plate, and very short swings with arms close to body for a long period of time.
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  • tembolo1284tembolo1284 Boom Boom Banned  20715WRX Points: 1Handicap: BeefPosts: 20,715 Titanium Tees
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    ej002 wrote:
    <br />
    <br />
    ej002 wrote:
    <br />
    Can you even hit a ball with both arms straight? Even a pure hitter saves some arm for after impact. It is just a matter of where the elbow is and how fast it straightens.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    BTW - I think the baseball swing has less in common with the golf swing that I used to go on about. At least the way that I used to hit. The hand mechanics are completely different IMO.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    In what sense? I really have no idea. I'd guess being a total baseball layman I'd be way more arms and wrist when hitting a baseball.<br />
    <br />
    I can't imagine doing a 'CP' release with a bat as the ball would be moving around the strike zone...it's not like it's coming in always in the same spot...so that's why I think you need to practice a lot and get a feel to be able to put the barrel of the bat on the ball. Takes a boat load of talent and luck and skill in reading pitches. I'll stick to golf and tennis hehe.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    I'd imagine if you are a good hitter of the baseball then golf should be really easy. Ball striking wise anyway.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    I think most guys would be CF for sure - throw the head of the bat at the ball. I think Bonds and Manny are more CPish. Crowded the plate, and very short swings with arms close to body for a long period of time.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Shouldn't it be easy in theory to jam them then? Or were they just so strong it didn't matter they just smoked it a bit earlier and hit a big steroids pull home run anyway?
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  • ej002ej002 Unregistered  5129WRX Points: 3Posts: 5,129 Titanium Tees
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    No, just the opposite, they don't get that trailing arm out, tighter in-tosquare-to in circle. You can't beat them inside they made you PAY... porkage style. Manny's fat a** was not juiced and Bonds did it before he got that alien head LMAO.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    http://www.efastball.com/hitting/rotational-vs-linear-hitting-methods/
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  • tembolo1284tembolo1284 Boom Boom Banned  20715WRX Points: 1Handicap: BeefPosts: 20,715 Titanium Tees
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    So then bust them outside because they can't reach?<br />
    <br />
    **** EJ that's an awesome thread!
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  • kellygreenkellygreen Members  6413WRX Points: 3Posts: 6,413 Titanium Tees
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    ej002 wrote:
    <br />
    I think most guys would be CF for sure - throw the head of the bat at the ball. I think Bonds and Manny are more CPish. Crowded the plate, and very short swings with arms close to body for a long period of time.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    There is an element of that in the "connected" baseball swing. But what really sets it apart from the old "extend your arms" swing is how you use the body. The "extend your arms swing" is more like the classic golf downswing. You shift your weight into the front foot, then swing your arms and bat through the anticipated point of contact. The problem is that this is a relatively slow motion, and is biomechanically inefficient. So, in baseball terms, you don't generate much power...and you leave yourself vulnerable to pitchers who throw good breaking pitches (less time to calculate where the ball will wind up), or off-speed pitches (have to committ to the swing faster and less time to adjust).<br />
    <br />
    In the connected swing, there really isn't a weight-shift into the ball. The power is generated mainly from the body core, and solid contact with the ground. Like throwing a punch or a chop in the martial arts, the core is used more like a counter-weight to help accelerate the bat. You can think of it like the motion you make in cracking a whip. Except the power isn't coming from the arm and wrist, but from the rotary motion back-and-away from the ball.<br />
    <br />
    http://www.efastball.com/hitting/major-league-baseball-swing-rotational-hitting/<br />
    <br />
    (Scroll down to the picture of Chipper Jones. You'll see that he never actually gets his weight ONTO his front foot, but instead uses it more like a BRACE in order to keep him stable..and the stepping motion is more of a TIMING mechanism--and a way to remain in motion and not freeze-up---than anything else)<br />
    <br />
    This motion is biomechanically much more efficient--and is therefore used by anyone who hits with any real power---and it accelerates the bat MUCH more quickly. Which allows the hitter longer to watch the ball before having to pull the trigger. This allows the hitter more time to assess the ball and determine its location (less likely to chase bad pitches), and an increased ability to adjust to changes in pitching speed and location....which are the two biggest weapons in a pitcher's arsenal to fool hitters.<br />
    <br />
    Where players position themselves in the box is more about pitch selection than anything else. I tended to crowd the plate, because I was confident that I could handle an inside pitch from just about anyone but the hottest of the fireballers, and it allowed me to reduce the effectiveness of the low-and-away breaking ball. Which demands the greatest amount of adjustment in timing to hit solidly. <br />
    <br />
    So my positioning in the box was an effort to take away a pitcher's strength...and fool him into trying to challenge me at MY strength. Oh, and forget about trying to back me off the plate by throwing at me. Up-and-in didn't intimdate me. It just made me mad, and got me to focus just that much more....and made me just that much more of a "difficult out".
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  • tembolo1284tembolo1284 Boom Boom Banned  20715WRX Points: 1Handicap: BeefPosts: 20,715 Titanium Tees
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    **** that chipper jones chap must be good. Looks great hitting a baseball. Smooth.
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  • kellygreenkellygreen Members  6413WRX Points: 3Posts: 6,413 Titanium Tees
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    <br />
    **** that chipper jones chap must be good. Looks great hitting a baseball. Smooth.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    http://www.baseball-...jonesch06.shtml<br />
    <br />
    Baseball's equivalent of the "triple double" in basketball is the player who is able to hit for both power AND average. It shows that he is not sacrificing power---slapping at the ball---just to make contact, and that his method is technically sound so that he makes solid contact often enough to hit safely a good percentage of the time. In his prime playing days in the late 90s to mid 2000s, he generally hit around .300 or above. Was good for 20-30 HRs and 100 or more RBIs a season. Plus he routinely got significantly more hits than strikeouts over the course of a season. All marks of a really good hitter.<br />
    <br />
    IOW, he was NOT someone a pitcher wanted to be facing day in or day out in the 3rd spot in the batting order....or in the batter's box at a critical time in the game.<br />
    <br />
    Because odds are he wasn't going to strike out...and chances were good he was going to hit the ball HARD...somewhere.<br />
    <br />
    ...and a hitter who can do that consistently MAKES things happen, because he is not an easy out.<br />
    <br />
    He'll be on everyone's lips for Cooperstown in a few years.
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  • ej002ej002 Unregistered  5129WRX Points: 3Posts: 5,129 Titanium Tees
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    I disagree that weight is not shifted forward. Every baseball swing the weight shifted forward. Studies have shown that repeatedly.
    Posted:
  • kellygreenkellygreen Members  6413WRX Points: 3Posts: 6,413 Titanium Tees
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    ej002 wrote:
    <br />
    I disagree that weight is not shifted forward. Every baseball swing the weight shifted forward. Studies have shown that repeatedly.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Not in the same way that it is in the golf swing or how it is taught---or at least I was taught---in the "extension" baseball swing.<br />
    <br />
    I was taught the connected swing when I was a freshman in high school by a Div. III coach at my dad's alma mater who had made it as high as AAA with the Mets. Trying to get the feel of the difference in handling the weight, was one of the most difficult things I had to learn in making the transition.<br />
    <br />
    Yet when I mastered it, imo, it was the thing that made me a MUCH better hitter. I could accelerate the bat much faster. I could wait much longer before pulling the trigger. So I became an even more selective hitter ( i had a good eye even before that), and a much better breaking ball hitter.<br />
    <br />
    I went from an all-glove-and-no-bat middle-infielder that coaches used to try to hide at the 9th spot in order to keep my glove in the line-up. One who used to strike out a LOT, and show rare flashes of power-hitting...to a hit-for-power-and-average, home run hitting and base stealing lead-off hitter. I went from a kid who was afraid he might get cut from his high school baseball team, to one who lettered in Div. I, and could hold his own with most minor leaguers at the time.
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  • HsteadHstead Members  6347WRX Points: 197Posts: 6,347 Titanium Tees
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    I couldn't agree more with basically everything KG has stated. I played baseball too and had a chance to play minor league ball but chose football instead. There certainly are similarities in both swings but there are differences as well. My trail elbow in hitting a baseball is way bent, my shoulders are much more open and hips too, basically facing the pitcher. That is one of the big differences. I can't get that open hitting a golf ball, no way no how. The club would be so far behind me it would be really hard to hit the ball straight. To me, the releases are totally different, as is the weight transfer. I am with KG, I might have my left leg straight and braced, but I am a lot more behind the ball in baseball than in golf where I am actually trying to stay on top o f the ball. If you stayed behind the ball in golf like I did in baseball I would be way under plane, too much secondary tilt etc. That is one of the problems I have in the golf swing, right shoulder dropping too far down. In baseball that is not as bad because the ball is on a different plane, hopefully belt high is where I wanted it.<br />
    <br />
    Power hitters stand on top of the plate so you can't throw it away from them. And they have enough speed that anything inside is turned on and pulled which is where your most power is. I have taught my son who plays a lot of travel baseball to stand right on top of the plate. He is a pull hitter but if you try to throw on the outside corner he can still drive it back up the middle. He uses a shorter bat than most kids on the team so he can stand closer and swing it quicker. <br />
    <br />
    By the way, I still think guys that aren't built like Hogan shouldn't try to swing like him. Me and the Wizard have talked at length about this and he is a firm believer that it will ruin me.
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  • ej002ej002 Unregistered  5129WRX Points: 3Posts: 5,129 Titanium Tees
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    Didn't Bonds use a 32 "?
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  • tembolo1284tembolo1284 Boom Boom Banned  20715WRX Points: 1Handicap: BeefPosts: 20,715 Titanium Tees
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    Hstead wrote:
    <br />
    I couldn't agree more with basically everything KG has stated. I played baseball too and had a chance to play minor league ball but chose football instead. There certainly are similarities in both swings but there are differences as well. My trail elbow in hitting a baseball is way bent, my shoulders are much more open and hips too, basically facing the pitcher. That is one of the big differences. I can't get that open hitting a golf ball, no way no how. The club would be so far behind me it would be really hard to hit the ball straight. To me, the releases are totally different, as is the weight transfer. I am with KG, I might have my left leg straight and braced, but I am a lot more behind the ball in baseball than in golf where I am actually trying to stay on top o f the ball. If you stayed behind the ball in golf like I did in baseball I would be way under plane, too much secondary tilt etc. That is one of the problems I have in the golf swing, right shoulder dropping too far down. In baseball that is not as bad because the ball is on a different plane, hopefully belt high is where I wanted it.<br />
    <br />
    Power hitters stand on top of the plate so you can't throw it away from them. And they have enough speed that anything inside is turned on and pulled which is where your most power is. I have taught my son who plays a lot of travel baseball to stand right on top of the plate. He is a pull hitter but if you try to throw on the outside corner he can still drive it back up the middle. He uses a shorter bat than most kids on the team so he can stand closer and swing it quicker. <br />
    <br />
    By the way, I still think guys that aren't built like Hogan shouldn't try to swing like him. Me and the Wizard have talked at length about this and he is a firm believer that it will ruin me.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Great post sir!
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  • tembolo1284tembolo1284 Boom Boom Banned  20715WRX Points: 1Handicap: BeefPosts: 20,715 Titanium Tees
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    Kelly...I was checking out some of those baseball articles you and EJ posted...and I saw quite a bit about hybrid swinging.<br />
    I guess that makes sense...I liken it to how nobody really is all rotary or all linear...I guess that's like saying all swinger or all hitter in golf.<br />
    <br />
    How does that apply to golf? How can one take the best of both worlds to match their body to get the most out of themselves?<br />
    <br />
    I was looking at ken griffey jr hitting a baseball a lot last night. Good lord he's as smooth as sam snead!
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  • kellygreenkellygreen Members  6413WRX Points: 3Posts: 6,413 Titanium Tees
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    <br />
    Kelly...I was checking out some of those baseball articles you and EJ posted...and I saw quite a bit about hybrid swinging.<br />
    I guess that makes sense...I liken it to how nobody really is all rotary or all linear...I guess that's like saying all swinger or all hitter in golf.<br />
    <br />
    How does that apply to golf? How can one take the best of both worlds to match their body to get the most out of themselves?<br />
    <br />
    I was looking at ken griffey jr hitting a baseball a lot last night. Good lord he's as smooth as sam snead!<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    I had the pleasure (he's the nicest guy you'd ever want to meet) of playing against him in a collegiate summer league (he was 17 at the time, by the way) when I was young. You look up "NATURAL" in the dictionary, his picture would be in the margin. Even as a teenager playing against college players in the area, he was STILL a "Man Among Boys". (...and I freely admit I was one of the boys, even though I probably had enough talent to have made it to AAA or as a journeyman in the majors).<br />
    <br />
    I played against him one day at Univ of Cin., and he hit a home run off of our ace that I'll remember until they shovel dirt in my face. At the time the University has put their ballfield on patch of land behind their football stadium (Nippert) that really was a bit too small for the job. The centerfield fence had to pinch in a bit to accomodate the footbal stands, so it was the same distance to straight-away center as it was to either power-alley. But about 50 feet behind the fences in Right/Right-Center were the football stands, and they rose about 3 stories above the fences.<br />
    <br />
    Junior caught a fastball and hit what I used to a call "a 45* angle home run". It's the trajectory a baseball takes off on when its been hit ABSOLUTELY PURE. It takes off like it has been shot out of a CANNON. In my entire career as amateur, I only saw one other person hit a ball like that. I just turned around and watched it go out, because there was NO question about whether it would. It was still going up when it cleared the 365 mark in right-center. It was STILL going up when it cleared the football stands and went down into the football stadium!! <br />
    <br />
    Let's just say, I was NOT suprised when he was hitting upper deck home runs in the King Dome a few years later.<br />
    <br />
    As for application to golf...there are many differences between the swings as there are similarities. What I would suggest is that you look at how you swing. If you mainly swing AROUND yourself...then CONNECTION is important. If you swing more upright, than extension and synchronization are more important. If you swing around yourself, your motion will have a lot in common with the baseball swing. If you swing more upright, your motion will have more in common with a baseball (three-quarter underarm) throwing motion.<br />
    <br />
    Trying to HYBRIDIZE these motion inthe golf swing gets tricky---though I think Adam Scott and Louis Oosthuizen do a good job of it---and really needs to be addressed by someone who is a golf professional. Which, I'm not, of course.
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  • HsteadHstead Members  6347WRX Points: 197Posts: 6,347 Titanium Tees
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    This is great. I have a Griffey Jr story too. I played against him when I was 15 and he was 16 playing for Cincinnati Midland. They had Rose Jr, Buddy Bells son, and Jr. We played at Xavier University's field and Xaviers coach was Midlands coach. When we arrived the day before the tournament, the Xavier coach gave us a walking tour of the facilities etc and told us about Jr whom we had all heard of already. I remember that field was 330 down the lines and 410 in straight away center. The field backed up against the backside basketball arena and was elevated so that the arena wall was about 30 feet past the fence and about 30 feet high. The Xavier coach told us that during bp Jr would lose his balls ontop of the arena so he had to tell him to quit pulling the ball and he would hit them out of center. We thought he was trying to intimidate us because that would be a HUGE shot for 16 year olds. <br />
    <br />
    So we get Midland in the second round. Jr is the leadoff batter and at 16 he was already about 6'2". We had our ace on the mound and he had a nasty split finger that I could barely catch let alone hit, the bottom just fell out of this thing, it was a great pitch. So we get 1 and 1 on Jr and I call for the splitter. Jr hit it on the freakin basketball roof. We walked him the next time up and I called a pitch out and threw him out at second trying to steal. One of my fondest memories from baseball. Pete Rose Jr sucked by the way back then.<br />
    <br />
    As for a hybrid swinger, I would say Ichiro is very much a hybrid guy swinging a baseball bat.
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  • kellygreenkellygreen Members  6413WRX Points: 3Posts: 6,413 Titanium Tees
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    Hstead wrote:
    <br />
    This is great. I have a Griffey Jr story too. I played against him when I was 15 and he was 16 playing for Cincinnati Midland. They had Rose Jr, Buddy Bells son, and Jr. We played at Xavier University's field and Xaviers coach was Midlands coach. When we arrived the day before the tournament, the Xavier coach gave us a walking tour of the facilities etc and told us about Jr whom we had all heard of already. I remember that field was 330 down the lines and 410 in straight away center. The field backed up against the backside basketball arena and was elevated so that the arena wall was about 30 feet past the fence and about 30 feet high. The Xavier coach told us that during bp Jr would lose his balls ontop of the arena so he had to tell him to quit pulling the ball and he would hit them out of center. We thought he was trying to intimidate us because that would be a HUGE shot for 16 year olds. <br />
    <br />
    So we get Midland in the second round. Jr is the leadoff batter and at 16 he was already about 6'2". We had our ace on the mound and he had a nasty split finger that I could barely catch let alone hit, the bottom just fell out of this thing, it was a great pitch. So we get 1 and 1 on Jr and I call for the splitter. Jr hit it on the freakin basketball roof. We walked him the next time up and I called a pitch out and threw him out at second trying to steal. One of my fondest memories from baseball. Pete Rose Jr sucked by the way back then.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Another Cincy kid?? <img src='http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /><br />
    <br />
    Ahh....I know Xavier's field well. It's right down the street from where I went to high school. IIRC there's a big hill just short of the street behind center? I can just imagine what kind of monster shots he hit out of that park. Great facility though. The only other guy who I'd seen hit a howitzer shot home run like Junior did was another guy who had played for Midland a couple of years earlier...and his was more of a happy-accident than anything else. Juniors was like "Okay, no big deal...." <br />
    <br />
    As far as Pete Rose Jr. goes, I know. I knew him back in my mid-teen years. Best I can say about him was that---while he didn't inherit his father's baseball talent---he also didn't inherit his father's personality either. Guess you gotta take the good with the bad. <br />
    <br />
    I spent most of my teen years playing with Lee May's son...and HE was almost as much of a natural as Junior. Wasn't as powerful a hitter, but was a much better defensive player. Problem was, he had so much natural ability that he wasn't much of a student of the game. Got drafted by the Mets, but stalled out in AA. Once the pitchers figured out that he was vulnerable to the down-and-away breaking ball, they just ate him alive....
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  • HsteadHstead Members  6347WRX Points: 197Posts: 6,347 Titanium Tees
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    Not from Cincy, but down the river about 140 miles in southern-Ohio. I played on a team with kids from WV, KY, and Va. We ran into Midland at the Mickey Mantle regionals. I remember how stunned I was that Rose Jr ever made it to minor league ball. He was awful. I remember Midland came out with warm-up jerseys to take infield, they all had their own batting helmets and bat bags etc. Back then I had never seen a bat bag from where I came from let alone everyone having their own helmet. We had 6 or 7 helmets and sometimes you had to wait on one that fir if the bases were loaded lol. <br />
    <br />
    Our team was a rag tag bunch that the coach would travel around to area high schools and just cherry pick kids and throw a team together. I remember we had uniforms that had some insurance company name on the front and we had a make believe record we all had to memorize. It was all totally made up, we didn't even have a league we started right off in the State finals lol. Good times. Midland was a bit intimidating to say the least. We played right with them though and they beat us 5 to 3.
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  • ej002ej002 Unregistered  5129WRX Points: 3Posts: 5,129 Titanium Tees
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    Those JR. stories are fantastic. I wish they could fill the major leagues with clones of him. Would you guys classify him as a hybrid swinger? He looks rotational but always had a lot of extension while doing it.
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  • kellygreenkellygreen Members  6413WRX Points: 3Posts: 6,413 Titanium Tees
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    Hstead wrote:
    <br />
    Not from Cincy, but down the river about 140 miles in southern-Ohio. I played on a team with kids from WV, KY, and Va. We ran into Midland at the Mickey Mantle regionals. I remember how stunned I was that Rose Jr ever made it to minor league ball. He was awful. I remember Midland came out with warm-up jerseys to take infield, they all had their own batting helmets and bat bags etc. Back then I had never seen a bat bag from where I came from let alone everyone having their own helmet. We had 6 or 7 helmets and sometimes you had to wait on one that fir if the bases were loaded lol. <br />
    <br />
    Our team was a rag tag bunch that the coach would travel around to area high schools and just cherry pick kids and throw a team together. I remember we had uniforms that had some insurance company name on the front and we had a make believe record we all had to memorize. It was all totally made up, we didn't even have a league we started right off in the State finals lol. Good times. Midland was a bit intimidating to say the least. We played right with them though and they beat us 5 to 3.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    My team was a neighborhood team as well, though---mainly through the efforts of my dad and other parents---we had a bit more resources to work with. Midland--OTOH---was always flush with cash, and I can understand how they could intimidate people. Looking like a major league team had just shown up to play you. But having grown up in Cincy, we had played against various Midland teams down through the years, so we knew they were just another ball team. One that just dressed REALLY well..and TRIED to pick the best players around the city. (But they never quite looked in all the right places for them. <img src='http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />) We always played them tough, and beat them our share of times.<br />
    <br />
    Unfortunately, you're right about Pete Rose, Jr. He just didn't have the talent to play professional baseball, and the only reason he was drafted was because of who his father was. I hate to say that, because he was a good kid when I knew him.<br />
    <br />
    IIRC, the Orioles took him, and held onto him until he eventually reached AAA (?!?!?!?!), but then finally had to accept that he was never going to be major league material, and finally released him. But truth be told I played with guys in college who were better players than he was....and a LOT of guys who around Cincinnati who were better than he was, but never got drafted.
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  • kellygreenkellygreen Members  6413WRX Points: 3Posts: 6,413 Titanium Tees
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    ej002 wrote:
    <br />
    Those JR. stories are fantastic. I wish they could fill the major leagues with clones of him. Would you guys classify him as a hybrid swinger? He looks rotational but always had a lot of extension while doing it.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Using this scheme, I'd say he was rotational....but with naturally long-arms and almost SUPERNATURAL quickness and fluidity. So his swing didn't have any of the "holes" that many long-armed hitters seem to have. The power that he could generate with that swing was frightening to behold at times...and yet he'd make it look as effortless as a fish swimming in the ocean. <br />
    <br />
    Whenever I tell people these stories, I'll tell them that I'm proud of my record as a baseball player...and was probably 4 standard deviations above the mean in terms of talent. But Junior was like EIGHT deviations above it. I was good, but I was not even playing the same game as he was, and don't feel a lick of shame in admitting it. Because you just knew that you were seeing something that Mother Nature didn't pull off very often. <br />
    <br />
    ...and like I said earlier---despite his absolutely MONSTROUS talent---he was the nicest guy you'd ever want to meet. Not a whiff of the diva or the "spoiled athlete" in him.
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  • ej002ej002 Unregistered  5129WRX Points: 3Posts: 5,129 Titanium Tees
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    kellygreen wrote:
    <br />
    <br />
    ...and like I said earlier---despite his absolutely MONSTROUS talent---he was the nicest guy you'd ever want to meet. Not a whiff of the diva or the "spoiled athlete" in him.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    That is what I always heard and it is great to hear that. Nice assessment.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    http://www.cbssports.com/golf/eye-on-golf/24417181/video-ken-griffey-jr-has-a-great-golf-swing<br />
    http://www.pga.com/merchandise/multimedia/video/ken-griffey-jr-tees-it-nike-golf<br />
    <br />
    compared to this<br />
    <br />
    http://www.golf.com/video/ken-griffey-jrs-golf-swing
    Posted:
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