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Salt Lake/Park City

FisherFisher Members Posts: 95 ✭✭
I'll be flying out to SLC/PC this weekend to visit my little brother who I don't get to see too often these days and would like to bring him out for a good round. I was hoping to get some suggestions about courses in the area that aren't terribly pricey (under $75~80) that we would be able to get on.



Thanks in advance.

Comments

  • JBirdUtJBirdUt Members Posts: 366 ✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 24, 2014 #2
    Mountain Dell in Parley's Canyon. It has two courses, canyon and lake, close and well under your price range.

    Check to see if Soldier Hollow is open, yet. Also, Wasatch State Park in Midway is an enjoyable track. If you have rich contacts there are some primo private courses in the PC area.



    There are also Salt Lake County and Salt Lake City golf courses that are all open.
  • FisherFisher Members Posts: 95 ✭✭
    Thanks JBird.. I think Soldier's Hollow is a go and Mountain Dell Lake Course.
  • RjBern10RjBern10 Members Posts: 146 ✭✭✭
    Wasatch Mountatin - Lake course is about $40 and in good condition as well.
  • FisherFisher Members Posts: 95 ✭✭
    Endd up playing Soldier's Hollow Silver as Gold wasn't open. Really nice course but wasn't in true condition yet given the season just started. It was fun though. Also played Bountiful Ridge. Definitely not a long course but the views were stunning and it was a fun course. Thanks for all that contributed.
  • geochitowngeochitown Members Posts: 1,886 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Jul 16, 2015 #6
    Bumping this thread to see if any SLC'ers might want to play Friday, August 7 am.



    I'll be in town for business.



    I may play wingpointe to keep it simple of the course above North Salt Lake...



    (Eaglewood) any comments on bountiful ridge vs eaglewood?



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  • golfdaddy01golfdaddy01 Members Posts: 258 ✭✭✭✭
    I would play bountiful ridge over eaglewood all day long. As far as original post mountain dell lake is a very fun scenic track to play. Bonneville is another course in slc worth playing as well. I am not a fan of wingpointe. My favorite course is the course on hill AFB. Best greens in the state but need base access to play.
  • Axman55Axman55 Members Posts: 352 ✭✭✭✭
    geochitown wrote:
    Bumping this thread to see if any SLC'ers might want to play Friday, August 7 am.



    I'll be in town for business.



    I may play wingpointe to keep it simple of the course above North Salt Lake...



    (Eaglewood) any comments on bountiful ridge vs eaglewood?



    I posted over in the Rockies WRXGroup as well.




    About 20 minutes further north from Bountiful  Ridge is Valley View in Layton Utah which in my opinion is the best public course in northern Utah and I have played them all! Bountiful Ridge's conditions are very random. I've played there 5 or 6 times. Sometimes it's great other times it's a dog track. I love  Valley View. Always in great shape. They hold Monday qualifiers for the  web.com event there and USGA qualifiers are often held there. Great layout, lots of slope changes, and the greens are always in good shape. Was in the top 100 public courses a while back.

    There are a lot of houses on eaglewood....

    I would skip wingpointe . The city of Salt Lake owns it and pretty much has given up on it and is trying to sell it.  Kinda sad because it's cool track.

    If you want to stay inside of Salt Lake City Bonniville is a good munny that has great views of the city. Rounds can be a little slow and they are currently replacing the irrigation system but I really enjoy it.
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  • newportbeachnewportbeach Members Posts: 3,559 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    On the south end of Salt Lake you could also try Old Mill - it is better than Bonneville IMO and a better option than some other valley courses. I agree on Valley View. Just played 9 there this past Wednesday as the high schoolers had a tourney there that day. It is in great shape.
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  • mannimalmannimal Members Posts: 226
    Wanted to bump this thread as I'm having an offsite work meeting in Park City and we are going to organize at least one round of golf during the trip.



    We are staying right across the street from Park City Golf Club, so that is an option, but is there anything close to SLC (the airport) or in between the airport and Park City that we should check out?



    Looks like Soldiers Hollow is an option, as well as Bonneville and Old Mill nearer SLC. We'll have all skill levels so can't be too penal, probably the more scenic the better!



    Anybody played these courses this year, thoughts? Thanks guys!
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  • Axman55Axman55 Members Posts: 352 ✭✭✭✭
    In between SLC and Park City is Mountain Dell (off of I-80 in Parleys Canyon). It is a scenic course with 36 holes. Lots of wild life (Moose, mule deer, and birds everywhere) The lake is the easier of the 2 courses. Park City municipal golf course has a LOT of houses on it. It was ruined when it was rerouted to build condos, ski lifts, and the hotel there (learned to play there, not even close to the same). It Is also expensive for Utah golf. Soldier hollow silver course is nice, the gold course is more difficult. They play the state amateur there. Good views as well. Old Mill has the slowest greens you will ever play and Bonneville, while a great track, will be the slowest round you will ever play... I would say either Soldier Hollow Silver Course, or Mountain Dell Lake course would be your best options for scenery and ease of play. Let me know if you have any other questions.
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  • mannimalmannimal Members Posts: 226
    Axman55 wrote:


    In between SLC and Park City is Mountain Dell (off of I-80 in Parleys Canyon). It is a scenic course with 36 holes. Lots of wild life (Moose, mule deer, and birds everywhere) The lake is the easier of the 2 courses. Park City municipal golf course has a LOT of houses on it. It was ruined when it was rerouted to build condos, ski lifts, and the hotel there (learned to play there, not even close to the same). It Is also expensive for Utah golf. Soldier hollow silver course is nice, the gold course is more difficult. They play the state amateur there. Good views as well. Old Mill has the slowest greens you will ever play and Bonneville, while a great track, will be the slowest round you will ever play... I would say either Soldier Hollow Silver Course, or Mountain Dell Lake course would be your best options for scenery and ease of play. Let me know if you have any other questions.




    Awesome Axman! Thanks for the help!



    I think I will have to play with the bigger group at Park City Muni just because of the convenience, but I may try to fly back a little later on Friday and get another round in so maybe I'll hit up Mountain Dell. Thanks for the tips!
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  • bradskibradski Members Posts: 2,373 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    I've now been in Utah for over 6 months. Utah sucks at golf technology and there are only 2 courses on golfnow because so many are run by cities and county. There are a few on teeoff but that is limited. Most of these Courses end up being around 30-40 without cart on Saturday anyways. My opinion on what I have played



    Utah county-

    $$$Thanksgiving point- Johnny Miller course made to play like a championship course. It can play long and has some difficult holes. It also has some easier ones but I wouldn't recommend it for anyone over a 15 handicap. condition is usually very good

    $Cedar Hills- This is a fun course with great views. It has some boring holes an a few great ones on the back 9. Solid course though for the money, good condition when I have played

    $Links at Sleepy ridge- this is a good kind of links style course. It winds through swampy waters and is a mix between links and a waterfront/riverfront course. conditions were good

    $eastbay- not spectacular. swamp land golf



    Salt Lake county-

    $$South mountain- Solid golf course with a good amount of elevation change and more of a target golf type course on many holes. Hitting less then driver with very misses that penalize.

    $Old mill- fun course, very open and resort style on the first 14 holes. the last 4 wind through trees and you have to pick your targets off the tee's. Good condition

    $Riverbend- Easier but fun golf course that is in good shape. not overly exciting but not a bad layout. good for mid to high handicap players and low handicap players should be able to score here.

    1/2$ Pebblebrook- not a great course some really bad holes, really short, but some tight holes for high handicap players.

    $river oaks- great conditions but the front 9 is very tight and target golf. condition was really top notch but you need to know where to aim on about half of the front 9.

    $Mountain view- not the worst course I have played but not worth the time.

    $murray parkway- I was surprised by this course. very easy layout but was in good condition. It is hard to lose a tee shot here as there aren't too many bad misses. If you hit your driver all over this is a great course to play.

    $Bonneville- ok layout and some very average holes. Greens can be firm so you want to come into them with less club to hold.

    $stonebridge- Great linkish style course through the marsh land. good condition and at around 7100-7200 yards it was somewhat challenging without being hard. Right by the airport. Johnny Miller design. frankly I don't know why people complain about wingpointe being gone when this course is here.

    $$$$Willow Creek CC- good tree lined course with errant tee shots being 1/2-1 shot penalty depending on how luck you get.



    East mountains

    $Mt Dell- Solid course and some open holes and some Target golf around the highest point. I saw a family of Moose when I was there last.

    $wasatch- great mountain views and i liked the layout on the mountain course way more than the lakes. very good course if you want to see wildlife(turkey, deer, ect) and great colors in the fall

    $Soldier hollow- two good courses that are open links style with the front nine of the Gold course requiring some accurate tee shots. I thought the Gold was a much better course but both are good.





    North

    $Eaglewood- fun course and somewhat target golfish but not that bad. it isn't super long so you can hit long irons on quite a few tee's. worth playing

    $Bountiful ridge- hillside and fun course . older design. some good holes and some boring unspectacular ones. worth playing also



    Top 5 in my opinion

    Soldier-Gold course

    Thanksgiving

    South mountain

    Willow Creek

    Stone Bridge



    the other I recommend highly

    Sleepy ridge- not in morning because of bugs and mosquitos

    Cedar hills- great views

    Mt dell- Canyon

    Wasatch- mountain

    Old mill
  • cacophony82cacophony82 Members Posts: 233
    good deals to be had on Thanksgiving point - I played it for like 25.00 last year on a work trip
  • alexdubalexdub Face sends it, path bends it UtahMembers Posts: 1,094 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 20, 2016 #15
    bradski wrote:
    I've now been in Utah for over 6 months. Utah sucks at golf technology and there are only 2 courses on golfnow because so many are run by cities and county. There are a few on teeoff but that is limited.




    Welcome to Utah man, I hope it's been good for you so far! I think Tee Off is actually pretty good along the Wasatch Front right now. There are over 20 courses on there and they have some good deals for fall golf.



    To your point about the city and county courses, I think that's what makes SLC area golf so good. I hope you get to check out some of the lesser known courses while you're here; there's a lot to explore. Local muni's are where the golfing history is here. The Utah Am is the longest running golf tourney in the US, and the older courses are the reason for that.



    The Wasatch Front has places like Forrest Dale, Nibley, and Rose Park that are over 100 years old; and on the higher end, you have some of the best mountain golf in the country in Heber and PC. Lots to choose from here.
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  • Titleist87Titleist87 Members Posts: 2,868 ✭✭
    bradski wrote:


    I've now been in Utah for over 6 months. Utah sucks at golf technology and there are only 2 courses on golfnow because so many are run by cities and county. There are a few on teeoff but that is limited. Most of these Courses end up being around 30-40 without cart on Saturday anyways. My opinion on what I have played



    Utah county-

    $$$Thanksgiving point- Johnny Miller course made to play like a championship course. It can play long and has some difficult holes. It also has some easier ones but I wouldn't recommend it for anyone over a 15 handicap. condition is usually very good

    $Cedar Hills- This is a fun course with great views. It has some boring holes an a few great ones on the back 9. Solid course though for the money, good condition when I have played

    $Links at Sleepy ridge- this is a good kind of links style course. It winds through swampy waters and is a mix between links and a waterfront/riverfront course. conditions were good

    $eastbay- not spectacular. swamp land golf



    Salt Lake county-

    $$South mountain- Solid golf course with a good amount of elevation change and more of a target golf type course on many holes. Hitting less then driver with very misses that penalize.

    $Old mill- fun course, very open and resort style on the first 14 holes. the last 4 wind through trees and you have to pick your targets off the tee's. Good condition

    $Riverbend- Easier but fun golf course that is in good shape. not overly exciting but not a bad layout. good for mid to high handicap players and low handicap players should be able to score here.

    1/2$ Pebblebrook- not a great course some really bad holes, really short, but some tight holes for high handicap players.

    $river oaks- great conditions but the front 9 is very tight and target golf. condition was really top notch but you need to know where to aim on about half of the front 9.

    $Mountain view- not the worst course I have played but not worth the time.

    $murray parkway- I was surprised by this course. very easy layout but was in good condition. It is hard to lose a tee shot here as there aren't too many bad misses. If you hit your driver all over this is a great course to play.

    $Bonneville- ok layout and some very average holes. Greens can be firm so you want to come into them with less club to hold.

    $stonebridge- Great linkish style course through the marsh land. good condition and at around 7100-7200 yards it was somewhat challenging without being hard. Right by the airport. Johnny Miller design. frankly I don't know why people complain about wingpointe being gone when this course is here.

    $$$$Willow Creek CC- good tree lined course with errant tee shots being 1/2-1 shot penalty depending on how luck you get.



    East mountains

    $Mt Dell- Solid course and some open holes and some Target golf around the highest point. I saw a family of Moose when I was there last.

    $wasatch- great mountain views and i liked the layout on the mountain course way more than the lakes. very good course if you want to see wildlife(turkey, deer, ect) and great colors in the fall

    $Soldier hollow- two good courses that are open links style with the front nine of the Gold course requiring some accurate tee shots. I thought the Gold was a much better course but both are good.





    North

    $Eaglewood- fun course and somewhat target golfish but not that bad. it isn't super long so you can hit long irons on quite a few tee's. worth playing

    $Bountiful ridge- hillside and fun course . older design. some good holes and some boring unspectacular ones. worth playing also



    Top 5 in my opinion

    Soldier-Gold course

    Thanksgiving

    South mountain

    Willow Creek

    Stone Bridge



    the other I recommend highly

    Sleepy ridge- not in morning because of bugs and mosquitos

    Cedar hills- great views

    Mt dell- Canyon

    Wasatch- mountain

    Old mill




    Get to Hobble Creek in the fall.
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  • alexdubalexdub Face sends it, path bends it UtahMembers Posts: 1,094 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    +1 on the Hobble Creek. Another beautiful city owned course.



    If Utah has a top 4 for golf in the fall, it's got to be (in no order):
    • Hobble Creek
    • Wasatch (Mountain)
    • Soldiers Hollow (gold)
    • Gladstan
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  • bradskibradski Members Posts: 2,373 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Titleist87 wrote:

    bradski wrote:


    I've now been in Utah for over 6 months. Utah sucks at golf technology and there are only 2 courses on golfnow because so many are run by cities and county. There are a few on teeoff but that is limited. Most of these Courses end up being around 30-40 without cart on Saturday anyways. My opinion on what I have played



    Utah county-

    $$$Thanksgiving point- Johnny Miller course made to play like a championship course. It can play long and has some difficult holes. It also has some easier ones but I wouldn't recommend it for anyone over a 15 handicap. condition is usually very good

    $Cedar Hills- This is a fun course with great views. It has some boring holes an a few great ones on the back 9. Solid course though for the money, good condition when I have played

    $Links at Sleepy ridge- this is a good kind of links style course. It winds through swampy waters and is a mix between links and a waterfront/riverfront course. conditions were good

    $eastbay- not spectacular. swamp land golf



    Salt Lake county-

    $$South mountain- Solid golf course with a good amount of elevation change and more of a target golf type course on many holes. Hitting less then driver with very misses that penalize.

    $Old mill- fun course, very open and resort style on the first 14 holes. the last 4 wind through trees and you have to pick your targets off the tee's. Good condition

    $Riverbend- Easier but fun golf course that is in good shape. not overly exciting but not a bad layout. good for mid to high handicap players and low handicap players should be able to score here.

    1/2$ Pebblebrook- not a great course some really bad holes, really short, but some tight holes for high handicap players.

    $river oaks- great conditions but the front 9 is very tight and target golf. condition was really top notch but you need to know where to aim on about half of the front 9.

    $Mountain view- not the worst course I have played but not worth the time.

    $murray parkway- I was surprised by this course. very easy layout but was in good condition. It is hard to lose a tee shot here as there aren't too many bad misses. If you hit your driver all over this is a great course to play.

    $Bonneville- ok layout and some very average holes. Greens can be firm so you want to come into them with less club to hold.

    $stonebridge- Great linkish style course through the marsh land. good condition and at around 7100-7200 yards it was somewhat challenging without being hard. Right by the airport. Johnny Miller design. frankly I don't know why people complain about wingpointe being gone when this course is here.

    $$$$Willow Creek CC- good tree lined course with errant tee shots being 1/2-1 shot penalty depending on how luck you get.



    East mountains

    $Mt Dell- Solid course and some open holes and some Target golf around the highest point. I saw a family of Moose when I was there last.

    $wasatch- great mountain views and i liked the layout on the mountain course way more than the lakes. very good course if you want to see wildlife(turkey, deer, ect) and great colors in the fall

    $Soldier hollow- two good courses that are open links style with the front nine of the Gold course requiring some accurate tee shots. I thought the Gold was a much better course but both are good.





    North

    $Eaglewood- fun course and somewhat target golfish but not that bad. it isn't super long so you can hit long irons on quite a few tee's. worth playing

    $Bountiful ridge- hillside and fun course . older design. some good holes and some boring unspectacular ones. worth playing also



    Top 5 in my opinion

    Soldier-Gold course

    Thanksgiving

    South mountain

    Willow Creek

    Stone Bridge



    the other I recommend highly

    Sleepy ridge- not in morning because of bugs and mosquitos

    Cedar hills- great views

    Mt dell- Canyon

    Wasatch- mountain

    Old mill




    Get to Hobble Creek in the fall.




    I will. I keep trying. I hope the leaves are still there in a couple weeks.
  • bradskibradski Members Posts: 2,373 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 29, 2016 #19
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • GamecockSlicerGamecockSlicer Members Posts: 85
    I've played while visiting Park City the last 3 summers.



    I echo the high recommendation re: Soldier Mountain (Gold is great, but Silver isn't shabby) as well as Wasatch. Both have phenomenal views and rates.
  • geochitowngeochitown Members Posts: 1,886 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    bradski, nice posts on SLC area golf!
    Lead Tape lovingly applied - Driver through GW
    TEE XCG7 Beta +1* to 11.5* - Testing at 43" w/ Matrix 7M3 stiff/Driver stand-in TEE EX9 Long 13* - Accra Tour Z ST 75 M4 untipped at 42.5" 
    OR TEE XCG7 Beta 4W 16.5* - Matrix 8M2 /5W 18* - Matrix 8M2 stiff tipped 2" at 41.75"
    TEE XCG7 Beta 19* H - Fujikura Fit-on Red Stiff - 85 g at 39.25"
    TEE XCG7 Beta 22*H - Diamana Thump T93 Stiff untipped at 38.75"
    TEE XCG7 Beta 25*H - Diamana Thump i465ct 4i shaft stiff 38.25"
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  • bradskibradski Members Posts: 2,373 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    geochitown wrote:


    bradski, nice posts on SLC area golf!




    for the price I have been really happy with golf in Utah after moving from San Diego. There is a good variety of courses and the cost is very good. I don't think there is a better place for fall golf on the western side of the country.
  • geochitowngeochitown Members Posts: 1,886 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Jul 2, 2018 #23
    18 month bump



    Interesting news about wingpointe



    Lead Tape lovingly applied - Driver through GW
    TEE XCG7 Beta +1* to 11.5* - Testing at 43" w/ Matrix 7M3 stiff/Driver stand-in TEE EX9 Long 13* - Accra Tour Z ST 75 M4 untipped at 42.5" 
    OR TEE XCG7 Beta 4W 16.5* - Matrix 8M2 /5W 18* - Matrix 8M2 stiff tipped 2" at 41.75"
    TEE XCG7 Beta 19* H - Fujikura Fit-on Red Stiff - 85 g at 39.25"
    TEE XCG7 Beta 22*H - Diamana Thump T93 Stiff untipped at 38.75"
    TEE XCG7 Beta 25*H - Diamana Thump i465ct 4i shaft stiff 38.25"
    Maxfli Revolution Black 5-PW (27,31,35,39,43,48) at -1/2" length DGS300U
    Vokey SM4 52-08F
    Cleveland TA588 57-10 (bent to 56*, so 9* bounce)
    Vokey SM5 60-07S  
    SC Futura X5r 33' flownecked by Bastain-cerakote sniper gray-silver dots-white flange sight line-SS Flatso 2.0
  • MilkyButterCutsMilkyButterCuts Members Posts: 925 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Aug 6, 2018 #24
    geochitown wrote:


    Bumping this thread to see if any SLC'ers might want to play Friday, August 7 am.



    I'll be in town for business.



    I may play wingpointe to keep it simple of the course above North Salt Lake...



    (Eaglewood) any comments on bountiful ridge vs eaglewood?



    I posted over in the Rockies WRXGroup as well.


    RIP Wingpointe



    Lets hope they can get that bill signed off. Would absolutely love to see it host the web.
  • Axman55Axman55 Members Posts: 352 ✭✭✭✭
    Wingpointe fans! Rally tomorrow at the club house. Need to make it clear to SLC government that we want that course back. Plans are in the works for private group to reopen it we just need the city’s approval.
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  • ALIFALIF ArizonaMembers Posts: 2,601 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @alexdub said:
    +1 on the Hobble Creek. Another beautiful city owned course.

    If Utah has a top 4 for golf in the fall, it's got to be (in no order):
    * Hobble Creek

    • Wasatch (Mountain)

    • Soldiers Hollow (gold)

    • Gladstan

    Dejavu. I come up from AZ in July and late September every year and play all 4 of these courses with my brother in law. We play up in Midway/Heber on day then Springville/Payson the next. Those are the best 4 courses. I have played Valley View and like it as well.

    OB and water hazards you flunkies
  • sabramsabram Members Posts: 1,549 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 27, 2019 1:30pm #27

    I just returned from a trip to Utah. We played:
    Wasatch Mountain - Mountain Course
    Soldier Hollow - Gold Course
    Mountain Dell - Lake Course Front 9 (Back 9 is closed)
    Mountain Dell - Canyon Course
    Bountiful Ridge (Front 9) - Got rained out on back.

    The weather this week in that region was unseasonably cold. The temps were more than 20 degrees below average (highs were in the high 40's and low 50's. It rained and/or hailed every day and there were frost delays every day (this is late May!!!)

    I'll post links to photos of each course as I get them posted to my Flickr page. Here's the first one, Wasatch Mountain
    (https://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/albums/72157708747519771

    Added - Soldier Hollow Gold Course: [https://flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/albums/72157708776853151]

    Added Mountain Dell Lakes Course front 9 - https://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/albums/72157708783130572

    Post edited by sabram on
  • vallygolfvallygolf Members Posts: 457 ✭✭✭✭

    I am taking some time off and going to Park City in a few weeks. I have some connections at a few clubs and was wondering what I should pick. Ill have time for two rounds.
    Park Meadows
    Red Ledges
    Tuhaye
    The Country Club in SLC
    I have firm commits to get out at these courses. I could probably swing another private if there are some better worth playing. I have played many of the public in the area. Thanks

  • wayneebabywayneebaby Members Posts: 301 ✭✭✭✭

    Where did you end up playing? How’d you like them?

    @vallygolf said:
    I am taking some time off and going to Park City in a few weeks. I have some connections at a few clubs and was wondering what I should pick. Ill have time for two rounds.
    Park Meadows
    Red Ledges
    Tuhaye
    The Country Club in SLC
    I have firm commits to get out at these courses. I could probably swing another private if there are some better worth playing. I have played many of the public in the area. Thanks

  • ALIFALIF ArizonaMembers Posts: 2,601 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @sabram said:
    I just returned from a trip to Utah. We played:
    Wasatch Mountain - Mountain Course
    Soldier Hollow - Gold Course
    Mountain Dell - Lake Course Front 9 (Back 9 is closed)
    Mountain Dell - Canyon Course
    Bountiful Ridge (Front 9) - Got rained out on back.

    The weather this week in that region was unseasonably cold. The temps were more than 20 degrees below average (highs were in the high 40's and low 50's. It rained and/or hailed every day and there were frost delays every day (this is late May!!!)

    I'll post links to photos of each course as I get them posted to my Flickr page. Here's the first one, Wasatch Mountain
    (https://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/albums/72157708747519771

    Added - Soldier Hollow Gold Course: [https://flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/albums/72157708776853151]

    Added Mountain Dell Lakes Course front 9 - https://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/albums/72157708783130572

    You have quite a collection on Flickr! Wow, you’ve played many, many awesome courses!

    OB and water hazards you flunkies

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