Question About Bent Grass Greens\Fairways

[skyking]

Played a Donald Ross gem near Atlantic City yesterday...LPGA has a tournament every June. The fairways and greens were like walking on expensive AstroTurf with a pad underneath. My home course in Delaware also has bent grass but pitch marks cause a divot that throws up a 1" or so piece of the green. Using a divot tool never seems to fix the pitch mark...thin grass on the green so you're just pushing dirt around. The course yesterday was so lush...approach shots made a pitch mark but was so easy to fix you could barely see the ball mark.

 

Is my semi-private course just operating on the cheap or the soil is different? If it's just being cheap I'm looking elsewhere for membership next year. Our greens look like a kid with bad acne from all the pitch marks. Was going to call our pro and ask but didn't want him mad at me, even though I was just trying to understand the difference plus he might be offended about something he has no control over.

[DevilDog]

Sounds like your course waters the living hell out of the bent grass to keep it alive in the hot months. Bent grass is a cool season grass and needs TLC to keep it alive when it gets hot. The downside of all the water are the pitch marks. If fixed properly, they will heal right up and no one will notice. Issue is most people don't fix them or if they do they don't do it correctly so they don't heal correctly. Maybe what your home course needs to do is print out the proper way to fix pitch marks and post that in conspicuous places.

Here's a link that explains the right way to fix those pitch marks: [url="http://golf.about.com/od/golfcourses/ss/ballmarkrepair.htm"]http://golf.about.co...lmarkrepair.htm[/url]

I will say I see a LOT of guys that think lifting the depression is the way to fix the pitch marks when it is really going around the outside of the depression as the links describes and pushing the edges together. Fixing pitch marks is paramount on bent greens because bent doesn't grow over quickly like bermuda does.

[skyking]

Wow...if excessive watering is the possible issue, I can see that. It has been a VERY mild summer but our entire course is soft. If you go even a little steeper on approach shots you'll shoot up a divot the size of a beaver tail. The course yesterday had fairways that were like walking on a thick carpet pad but no huge divot.

With regard to repairing pitch marks on the green, I would think a resort like the Donald Ross gem would have less golfers fixing divots than even our daily fee golfers. Even with that, our greens have such thin grass it seems impossible to fix a ball mark well enough for it to be virtually unnoticeable. That's what surprised me about the DR course. I would repair a ball mark and it was so thick and lush you couldn't really see it. As I said it was strange seeing this 1" sliver a foot or so away from the ball mark. You always have to pick it up or a ball would go off line.

[setter02]

Not sure you can compare your local semi-private to a higher end course. Also depend son how old your course is, and if they actually have a budget to make changes needed. Turf maintenance is expensive, even more so when regular golfers don't do their part. Big difference between a destination course and a local.

[mark m]

Hopefully a greenskeeper can chime in here because I am not an expert put we had this issue at my home course years ago. If part of the green chips away (on a ball/pitch mark) that often means there is poor root structure and basically the greens are not healthy. This can happen when the soil becomes compacted and/or doesn't have a good sand base underneath. You want the roots to grow deep down to reach water that has drained through to the sand base. This is why courses punch and sand the greens.

The greens on my course were about 20 years old and were like your home track when they decided to start a 3 year deep tine aeration porgram which took out plugs of black dirt about a foot down and the size of a 50 piece and replaced with sand. While it took about a month to fully recover each time, it was better than the alternative of closing the course and rebuilding the greens. Now there has been a lot of new equipment and practices tried over the lst 20 or so years - so maybe there are better ways to get good results now? The program worked at my course - but we have been fortunate to have a very good greens keeper for the past 12 years as well.

I personally prefer "firm and fast" conditions and when done right, the ball/pitch marks are usually not that deep and they are easy to repair. The only time you can create large ball marks is when you have had lots of rain. Firm and fast typically gives a better putting surface, You get a truer roll, less imperfections (foot prints, spike marks and ball marks) to deal with on the green. Same for firm fairways. You don't tend to see deep divot holes on firm links courses for example.

[skyking]

Hum...I had a sore back during the late spring early summer but I do not remember the course being aerated. I would stop by the course and BS with the pro but don't remember hearing anything about aeration. With regard to firm and fast greens the DR course with bent grass was soft but still fairly fast...very cool.

At the very least I'm gonna check out other courses to decide about membership for next year. The DR course is about 45 minutes away and will definitely be a regular play...as long as I can get that $40 "Hot Deal". My home course is 4-5 minutes from the house so when I moved up here, I didn't venture out, just figured it was so close and "nice" that I was set.

[teejaywhy]

[quote name='skyking' timestamp='1409236666' post='10024601']
Is my semi-private course just operating on the cheap or the soil is different? If it's just being cheap I'm looking elsewhere for membership next year. Our greens look like a kid with bad acne from all the pitch marks. Was going to call our pro and ask but didn't want him mad at me, even though I was just trying to understand the difference plus he might be offended about something he has no control over.
[/quote]

Sounds like a shallow root structure but only the superintendent would know the real answers to your questions. Someone familiar with the green construction, soil, climate, turf, and maintenance budget. All anyone on this board can is speculate which really isn't fair.

You didn't say how long you have been playing there or how long these conditions have been in effect?

No one likes poor conditions, but it helps to know why and what if anything is planned to remedy the situation.

[hollabachgt]

Seaview's turf benifits greatly from both its sandy foundation and windy site. They can put down quite a bit of water and the course stays firm due to its good drainage. They have also done quite a bit of work to the course over the past 4 or 5 years and that may aid to its good turn conditions.

[ruascott]

[quote name='skyking' timestamp='1409313981' post='10029881']
Hum...I had a sore back during the late spring early summer but I do not remember the course being aerated. I would stop by the course and BS with the pro but don't remember hearing anything about aeration. With regard to firm and fast greens the DR course with bent grass was soft but still fairly fast...very cool.

At the very least I'm gonna check out other courses to decide about membership for next year. The DR course is about 45 minutes away and will definitely be a regular play...as long as I can get that $40 "Hot Deal". My home course is 4-5 minutes from the house so when I moved up here, I didn't venture out, just figured it was so close and "nice" that I was set.
[/quote]

No aeration at all? Most courses will do it twice a year, spring and early fall.

[skyking]

I agree and not judging. I'm use to Bermuda grass so this is all new to me regarding bent grass. I'll talk to the pro when we get back from vacation from the shore.

Seaview is perfect. Reminded me in many ways of when the wife and I went to Pinehurst for the US Open...women's. Receptive greens but pretty fast. Now I'm curious of what I'm. Missing at other courses in my area.

[jptruck]

I'm no greenskeeper. . .just to preface the fact that I'm not an expert on this, but your course is suffering from poor sub-soil conditions. Most of the great bent courses have a sub-structure that allows for deep root growth. Yours is probably too dense and suffering from a bad build up of thatch, a common issue. It need deep aeration and sand augmentation to break up that structure and let the roots breath and grow. If they did that, they could probably water the course less and have firmer conditions, but that's the expensive route. The course you played in Atlantic City probably has a good, sandy sub-soil

Too much water on a bent course is not good. It's a cheaper fix to keeping the grass alive by cooling it off. If there's too much water on the course during hot temps, it'll basically boil the grass. Drainage is key in those areas.

Bent is a great surface if managed properly. There's no miracle grass that can easily survive the summer heat and the winter cold, but it's got a great range.

Are you seeing any rings on your grass. The rings I mentioned almost perfect circles of darker grass on what looks to be normal grass. They can be a few inches in diameter or a few feet? That's a tale-tell sign of thatch.

[skyking]

I'll have to look for those rings you're talking about...not sure.

You know...I've had a heck of a time getting the ball to stop on approach shots this year. Tried different irons, tweak my swing and finally went back to my MP-60's but with XP95's for more height and spin. I play yesterday on those DR greens and hit more greens than I can remember in quite a while. Some of those greens had the turtle back effect as well. Really makes me wonder now if it's the poor condition of the greens at my home course even though both are bent grass. My home course has very subtle breaks except back to front.