SLICEFIXER BOOK UPDATE

[tembolo1284]

Aren't you Hindu?

In any case...Can Jesus get me fading it?

[verderraul]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1411586890' post='10176663']
Aren't you Hindu?

In any case...Can Jesus get me fading it?
[/quote]

Offcourse...jesus was a great cutter

[tembolo1284]

He swings and it's a home run! Good at bat sir.

[Darth Leverage]

I agree with The meat master a good write up there Russ.

However I must add a caveat, most people know they will require further instruction. If you can't get ahold of the man in the first place it doesn't build up confidence of booking in a follow up either... Wouldn't you agree? Can't be good for business

I think your post warrants a thread in itself "what to expect from slicefixer". It's clear the Main problem arisen here is the lack of clarity/communication of what your money gets you.

Personally if I'm paying a serious amount of money and travelling hundreds of miles for golf instruction I'd expect undivided attention, unless this is made clear to me otherwise. Information is key

[tembolo1284]

I've seen the man in person about 7 times. 4 times in texarkana, and 3 times here in NY. I never have trouble getting a text message answer response from him. Is it because I've seen him a fairly high number of times? It could very well be. He spoke to me for 2 hours before I even met him. Granted that that was 3 or so years ago. Maybe he was better at getting back to the students then.

All this started when someone posted they couldn't get to geoff. I said you have to call him again, and then again and you should be able to get him. He admittedly is bad for emails, but he's always been great at phone calls and then after I saw him and got his number on my speed dial...he also is good at sending text messages. Is he as good as Dan at getting back to you? Most definitely not, especially over emails. For texts and calls though, he's always been good to me.

I swear I didn't bribe him with brasilian girls or steak either.

[Darth Leverage]

The funny thing is we are talking about a book getting published when even his website isn't even live yet...

Could save himself a lot of correspondence man hours right there with the right site. Surely one of his students is talented in web design and coding?

Sorry if this is coming across as an attack, it isn't. The way I look at it is if you can't manage a website after all this 'under construction' time it's pretty damning evidence against a book being published.

Like others have highlighted perhaps Geoff just wants it to be too perfect. Hell I remember being like that during my education at times over handing in subject matter because I wanted full marks/every page had to match in presentation. Deadlines were often missed but it never mattered as long as I nailed it in my eyes. Call it OCD even

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='Darth Leverage' timestamp='1411590707' post='10177037']
I agree with The meat master a good write up there Russ.

However I must add a caveat, most people know they will require further instruction. If you can't get ahold of the man in the first place it doesn't build up confidence of booking in a follow up either... Wouldn't you agree? Can't be good for business

I think your post warrants a thread in itself "what to expect from slicefixer". It's clear the Main problem arisen here is the lack of clarity/communication of what your money gets you.

Personally if I'm paying a serious amount of money and travelling hundreds of miles for golf instruction I'd expect undivided attention, unless this is made clear to me otherwise. Information is key
[/quote]
I added another paragraph addressing the need for followup visits in my edited post.
Email is NOT the way to communicate with him,texting is.Heck ,i have a second email address ,that he rarely gives out and even then it is very iffy to engage him via mail.

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1411586890' post='10176663']
Aren't you Hindu?

In any case...Can Jesus get me fading it?
[/quote]
Kenny Perry rarely fades it and Rocco Mediate never hit a fade during his US Open playoff in 2008 ,even when the holes favored it. Heck the great South African player of the 1940's and 1950's,Bobby Locke was rumored to hit shots that started left and then really hooked.If i could consistently compress the heck of the ball while only drawing it,I would be on cloud 9.

[ozarkshooter]

[quote name='Darth Leverage' timestamp='1411590707' post='10177037']
I agree with The meat master a good write up there Russ.

However I must add a caveat, most people know they will require further instruction. I[b]f you can't get ahold of the man in the first place it doesn't build up confidence of booking in a follow up either... Wouldn't you agree? [/b]Can't be good for business

I think your post warrants a thread in itself "what to expect from slicefixer". It's clear the Main problem arisen here is the lack of clarity/communication of what your money gets you.

Personally if I'm paying a serious amount of money and travelling hundreds of miles for golf instruction I'd expect undivided attention, unless this is made clear to me otherwise. Information is key
[/quote]

Couldn't disagree more with the bolded section. Geoff may be difficult to get ahold of first, over the past two years, ALL of his responses to my texts and phone call are within hours, if not minutes.

Geoff is a great judge of character. Just one visit to his place and you will have met some of the greatest, down-to-earth people from all over the world. Almost to a person, they all come up to you to look you in the eye, extend their hand, and introduce themselves. Also, each of the many young junior golfers will answer all questions with a "yes sir" (OK, I'm 46 with some grey hairs, so maybe I'm just getting old). I say all of this because I truly believe he weeds out those he feels won't put in the time to work hard on their swing or those that do not possess good character. (He's never told me this, but I suspect it's true.) To some extent, I believe that is partially why he leaves students alone to work on their swings, while watching out the corner of his eye (believe me...he is watching!) Slackers don't last very long.

He is very fortunate to have a strong client base without any type of advertising other than his work on this site and word of mouth from students. Once someone begins lessons with him, and they show the work ethic, he gives back the amount of attention that they are paying to their game. So, for me, it's very easy to contact him. (I've even spoken to him while he is sitting in his tree stand while deer hunting...and those that know him, know how important deer hunting is to him.)

I have the utmost respect for Geoff for this and many other reasons.

[ej002]

[quote name='Darth Leverage' timestamp='1411591556' post='10177139']
The funny thing is we are talking about a book getting published when even his website isn't even live yet...

Could save himself a lot of correspondence man hours right there with the right site. Surely one of his students is talented in web design and coding?

Sorry if this is coming across as an attack, it isn't. The way I look at it is if you can't manage a website after all this 'under construction' time it's pretty damning evidence against a book being published.

Like others have highlighted perhaps Geoff just wants it to be too perfect. Hell I remember being like that during my education at times over handing in subject matter because I wanted full marks/every page had to match in presentation. Deadlines were often missed but it never mattered as long as I nailed it in my eyes. Call it OCD even
[/quote]

Would be a great idea - a slices managed forum. We been urging this for years. As far as I know the website had been completed a few years ago.

[bph7]

I'll just say this: Geoff is legitimately the nicest and most genuine teacher I have ever gotten a lesson from. He's also a flat out great teacher. But I really don't see how anyone who knows Geoff could ever think the website will ever be up or the book will ever come out or anything about these new plans will ever materialize. It just ain't gonna happen, that's just not how he rolls.

He'll continue working the way he does now and helping lots of people, but I just don't see any content ever being released. If anything were released it would honestly shock me. I'd don't think this is a bad thing btw, he loves to teach more than anything and that's what he's best at so that's what he's gonna do. I really don't mean this as a bad thing, but when I see this talk about a website/book I just kinda laugh. Guys, there will be no website!!! If it there were gonna be a website, it would've opened 5 years ago when it was supposed to lol...

[jurr80]

Ozark and Russ have it nailed.

Now, I can see the point of expectations being nailed on the front end.
If nothing else, this thread has officially done that.

I get a text response within hours. If not, it's the next day and he apologizes.
Russ has it right on the need for follow ups. That gets hard and can be costly, I'm aware. Big changes happen with time and effort. You'll always get the answer to a question lodged into your brain if you had to work on the answer for a while, ponder it, get it wrong, THEN are given the solution.

I started with Geoff with a mess of a swing. Absolutely AWFUL.
The first three day school taught me the basics. I had read through his stuff and had a good knowledge of his philosophy. I was so off on the setup that it was hilarious. My grip was off, too,

After the first "school", I had four DVDs loaded with stuff.
DVD 1 - my swing before and after. A primer on grip, setup, basic philosophy, etc.
DVD 2- a section on drills and why they are important. Nearly two hours of discussion. Hilarious and informative.
DVD 3- short game. How you set up, how you do it, etc.
DVD 4- mental, course management, etc.

I studied those DVDs like crazy. I had the feel for the setup. I practiced a TON and eventually lost the feel for what I was doing. I'd go through peaks and valleys. Some days were good, and others I felt like I had never picked up a club.

I went to NY with a set of distinct questions because I had been working so hard. Geoff pointed out that my setup was still off, but my pivot had improved a ton. Grip was spot on. More work.

After more time with him with Texas trips, I now am a different player. I went from lost to being able to compress a ball. I know the setup cold, and I can't recognize my old swing. I actually laugh at the footage.

I still haven't progressed to the point that I can pull driver on the course with confidence. I can smoke a 3W off the tee, and that is fine for me at this point.
The next visit to Geoff will be a fair amount of questioning about the driver and how to set it up. I could not have had that conversation with him if I didn't spend the time to ingrain the pivot, learn how to properly weight my front leg in transition, and hold leverage through a strike with the other clubs.

It is a process. It builds. There are still bad days, but they are now a LOT easier to self-correct because I have spent the time digesting each part as I have gone. I can give a pointer a two to newbies because I had made about every mistake there was to make. I still have MILES to go, but Geoff's guidance has been instrumental in my enjoyment of the game of golf. It had even bled into the way I thought about surgery. I see every movement differently. I break down and evaluate what I do for patients. I practice complex suture techniques at home with silk suture and leather to get that much better. I find joy in the process of continuous improvement in my craft through detail focused hard work.

That is why we all love Geoff. He could farm out his work to a crew of lesser assistants. He could build some school that turns and burns. He could have some kid tell you what to do then make a couple of guest appearances to oversee and talk.

It's not about that. It's about getting out there and busting your tail in 100 degree heat, going through the cases of water that you bought at the local Wal-Mart. It's about hanging up in the attic with three or four other golf nuts, learning about their lives and discussing the swing. It's about blisters and moleskin. It's about learning a golf swing in Spartan conditions with a guy that cares more about you as a person than he does your golf swing.

What an awful business model.

[rteach1]

ozarkshooter,

I [b]vehemently [/b]object to part of your recent post. Geoff "weeds out those he feels won't put in the time to work hard on their swing or those that do not possess good character?"" And [b]this is fine with you???!!! [/b]Are you serious? It's fine with you that if Geoff agrees to give me 3 days of [b]private[/b] instruction, he can then decide that I'm a "slacker" or of poor character, so he doesn't have to fulfill his part of our agreement???

What would that say about [b]his[/b] character, if he does indeed go about this "weeding out" process? Granted, this is your interpretation of his actions, but, hey, you know him well. You even get to talk to him during deer hunting.

Unbelievable.

As for the polite junior golfers who shake your hand and say "Sir," that's nice. It would be even better if they did not feel that it's o.k. to interrupt a private lesson. It would be truly fantastic if this practice were not condoned by the person whom I was paying for private lessons.

By the way, for my 3 days of private instruction, I got between 3-4 hours of one-on-one instruction. I'm not counting the 3 hours of "Ground School," where I was shown, as is every new student apparently, countless videos of Hogan and many other pros who had a cupped left wrist at the top. Unfortunately, the far greater number of pros with a *flat* left wrist at the top, including Tiger at the time, were conveniently ignored. After about an hour of this, I asked when he would take a look at my swing. Perhaps that was when my character was deemed lacking.

Oh, about those DVDs to take home. They are what prompted me to post. The original poster in this part of the thread brought up the lack of responsiveness on Geoff's part, which brought back very unpleasant memories. I got 3 DVDs: the Ground School DVD, which I had already watched at the start of my time with Geoff; a half hour short game lesson with a [b]different [/b]student, not me, and the recording of my swing with some comments from Geoff on it. That was about 30-45 minutes of material. Unfortunately, this last DVD, the most important one, was defective and did not work. When I realized this after returning home, I called Geoff and told him about the problem. He told me that he would send a copy within the week. After at least 6-7 calls, and numerous e-mails, I'm still waiting.

Along similar lines, I also loaned Geoff 4 DVDS. Go look at his room with videos. You will probably see 2 DVDs by an instructor named John Darling (not positive of the name, since I don't have the DVDs any more) and 2 by Mike Bender. Those DVDs are mine. They were never mailed back. After repeated phone calls, I finally got a response. Geoff asked me for my address and said he would mail them right out. That was years ago. I finally just gave up and said the hell with it.

You're all invited to note my screen name. I know a thing or two about both teaching and character. I taught in public schools for 45 years, and was twice nominated for the Disney Teacher of the Year. The concept of "weeding out" my students and deciding whom I would and wouldn't teach is reprehensible to me. If that is what Geoff does, shame on him. If you condone that practice, then shame on you.

One last thing for those of you who are in the inner circle and/or have blinders on. How many of you have been among those who have interrupted someone else's lesson? Is it o.k. to do that if you say, "Sir?" Did any of you interfere with my lesson time? If so, don't worry about it since I'm probably a slacker of poor character.

rteach1

P.S.- To reiterate, I resent the characterization, made by two posters, that expecting undivided attention during a lesson is "baby sitting."

[Hstead]

rteach1 - EXACTLY!

Just how is Geoff supposedly watching out of the corner of his eye when he is on his two hour lunch? I felt it rude to interrupt when he was giving other guys lessons just I would feel the same.

I am fairly certain I can and have worked much harder at my golf game compared to some of you guys. Can't hit a driver yet? Seriously? Maybe you aren't working hard enough then?

I take offense to these insinuations of "weeding out character" and "baby sitter" etc. That is total bull crap. Again, amazing how butt hurt some of you guys get. Geoff apologized and asked for $500 instead of the full amount. For a reason. End of story.

[pinhigh27]

So you've seen a dude for 2 3 days schools and you still don't feel comfortable hitting driver? sounds like a bit more patience than I have.

Also the whole weeding out thing is hilarious. So you pay for 3 days of time and if he doesn't feel you are up to expectations as a student you somehow get less out of it? umm ok

[tembolo1284]

I wonder what's holding back the book. Is it for the same reasons Mac doesn't publish?

[thedillz]

*This coming from a bit of an outsiders perspective*
If you take out most of the defensiveness and a few of the attacks on some people, this has actually been a pretty good discussion to follow.
Oh, and Tembolo gets to talk about steak too, so pretty much win win.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='thedillz' timestamp='1411646526' post='10180503']
*This coming from a bit of an outsiders perspective*
If you take out most of the defensiveness and a few of the attacks on some people, this has actually been a pretty good discussion to follow.
Oh, and Tembolo gets to talk about steak too, so pretty much win win.
[/quote]

What's your favorite cut of dead cow?

[thedillz]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1411647216' post='10180547']
[quote name='thedillz' timestamp='1411646526' post='10180503']
*This coming from a bit of an outsiders perspective*
If you take out most of the defensiveness and a few of the attacks on some people, this has actually been a pretty good discussion to follow.
Oh, and Tembolo gets to talk about steak too, so pretty much win win.
[/quote]

What's your favorite cut of dead cow?
[/quote]

Oh wow, that's a loaded question. Depending on how cooked (grilled, broiled, roasted... raw?) a good filet (maybe more than one if hungry) or I've been pretty partial to a well seasoned flank steak lately. Or, just go to a good Brazilian steak house (AKA - heaven) and enjoy many fine cuts of beef candy.

[Fort Worth Pro]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1411647216' post='10180547']
[quote name='thedillz' timestamp='1411646526' post='10180503']
*This coming from a bit of an outsiders perspective*
If you take out most of the defensiveness and a few of the attacks on some people, this has actually been a pretty good discussion to follow.
Oh, and Tembolo gets to talk about steak too, so pretty much win win.
[/quote]

What's your favorite cut of dead cow?
[/quote]

Tembolo, if you ever get to Texas you absolutely have to hit up Cooper's BBQ. Their motto is "It's all about the meat"

Will post a picture later but on phone now

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='thedillz' timestamp='1411648761' post='10180705']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1411647216' post='10180547']
[quote name='thedillz' timestamp='1411646526' post='10180503']
*This coming from a bit of an outsiders perspective*
If you take out most of the defensiveness and a few of the attacks on some people, this has actually been a pretty good discussion to follow.
Oh, and Tembolo gets to talk about steak too, so pretty much win win.
[/quote]

What's your favorite cut of dead cow?
[/quote]

Oh wow, that's a loaded question. Depending on how cooked (grilled, broiled, roasted... raw?) a good filet (maybe more than one if hungry) or I've been pretty partial to a well seasoned flank steak lately. Or, just go to a good Brazilian steak house (AKA - heaven) and enjoy many fine cuts of beef candy.
[/quote]

Sir you've passed the test! Adding you as a friend.

[thedillz]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1411649062' post='10180749']
[quote name='thedillz' timestamp='1411648761' post='10180705']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1411647216' post='10180547']
[quote name='thedillz' timestamp='1411646526' post='10180503']
*This coming from a bit of an outsiders perspective*
If you take out most of the defensiveness and a few of the attacks on some people, this has actually been a pretty good discussion to follow.
Oh, and Tembolo gets to talk about steak too, so pretty much win win.
[/quote]

What's your favorite cut of dead cow?
[/quote]

Oh wow, that's a loaded question. Depending on how cooked (grilled, broiled, roasted... raw?) a good filet (maybe more than one if hungry) or I've been pretty partial to a well seasoned flank steak lately. Or, just go to a good Brazilian steak house (AKA - heaven) and enjoy many fine cuts of beef candy.
[/quote]

Sir you've passed the test! Adding you as a friend.
[/quote]
I am honored... and now a bit hungry too.

[tembolo1284]

today is the anniversary of the creation of adam and eve. Rosh Hashanah. That's some hardcore stuff!

I celebrate with 5 sirloin balls wrapped in bacon.

[mocokid]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1411584322' post='10176407']
[quote name='russc' timestamp='1411583945' post='10176375']
For those who are considering going to Geoff,I want to advise you ahead of time what to expect and what to do
First do not be shy about asking questions or for clarification on what specifically to do.This is VERY IMPORTANT
Second do not expect him to baby sit you for the 2 or 3 days of your stay.There is only so much that anyone can absorb.Schools that go thru the swing soup to nuts inevitable leave the student confused because too much information is presented and the student can only absorb so much .A few good ideas and drills that a student can work on is much more useful.Now if your session is only 1 or 2 hours ,he will spend much of this time with you.
Third expect other golfers to be there.Hell,you might even see me if you are at his satellite facility in NY.Do not be put off by these other golfers.They are there to work on their swing and really do not care about your swing.Often some of these golfers are very good amateur or pro golfers.To a man(or girl) they have all been receptive to watching them it balls,but remember that they are working on their swing ,just as you are .I have found it very instructive to watch them.If i come over to try to help you work on Geoff suggestions,politely tell me to kiss off, if i am not helpful or you just want to be alone.
Expect to have to work on his prescribed suggestions for many,many hours after you leave.The 9-3 drill is designed to substitute the good habit of maintaining your leverage for the bad habit of dumping your leverage.In a sense it a remedial drill and it is not easy for many because this bad habit is so ingrained,To succeed at learning this swing,you must be patient and need to accept a strong work ethic.Geoff's attitude is nothing is going to come without dedication and hard work.Geoff is as capable of bandaid solutions as anyone in the world,but bandaid solutions are not part of teaching methodology
Geoff is a natural raconteur .Expect golf stories to be mixed into your lesson .His sessions are the polar opposite of "cut and dry instruction"
[/quote]

Excellent summary sir.
[/quote]

My first ever contact by text message was in March and he answered back in about 1 hour. Since then, I get texts regularly when he provides his NY schedule. (I've had 2 lessons, both in 2014, so I'm a newbie. ) I've texted him off topic, and he will also respond. Text is the WAY TO GO with Geoff.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='mocokid' timestamp='1411650188' post='10180849']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1411584322' post='10176407']
[quote name='russc' timestamp='1411583945' post='10176375']
For those who are considering going to Geoff,I want to advise you ahead of time what to expect and what to do
First do not be shy about asking questions or for clarification on what specifically to do.This is VERY IMPORTANT
Second do not expect him to baby sit you for the 2 or 3 days of your stay.There is only so much that anyone can absorb.Schools that go thru the swing soup to nuts inevitable leave the student confused because too much information is presented and the student can only absorb so much .A few good ideas and drills that a student can work on is much more useful.Now if your session is only 1 or 2 hours ,he will spend much of this time with you.
Third expect other golfers to be there.Hell,you might even see me if you are at his satellite facility in NY.Do not be put off by these other golfers.They are there to work on their swing and really do not care about your swing.Often some of these golfers are very good amateur or pro golfers.To a man(or girl) they have all been receptive to watching them it balls,but remember that they are working on their swing ,just as you are .I have found it very instructive to watch them.If i come over to try to help you work on Geoff suggestions,politely tell me to kiss off, if i am not helpful or you just want to be alone.
Expect to have to work on his prescribed suggestions for many,many hours after you leave.The 9-3 drill is designed to substitute the good habit of maintaining your leverage for the bad habit of dumping your leverage.In a sense it a remedial drill and it is not easy for many because this bad habit is so ingrained,To succeed at learning this swing,you must be patient and need to accept a strong work ethic.Geoff's attitude is nothing is going to come without dedication and hard work.Geoff is as capable of bandaid solutions as anyone in the world,but bandaid solutions are not part of teaching methodology
Geoff is a natural raconteur .Expect golf stories to be mixed into your lesson .His sessions are the polar opposite of "cut and dry instruction"
[/quote]

Excellent summary sir.
[/quote]

My first ever contact by text message was in March and he answered back in about 1 hour. Since then, I get texts regularly when he provides his NY schedule. (I've had 2 lessons, both in 2014, so I'm a newbie. ) I've texted him off topic, and he will also respond. Text is the WAY TO GO with Geoff.
[/quote]

Bang there you have it!

[verderraul]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1411623009' post='10179929']
So you've seen a dude for 2 3 days schools and you still don't feel comfortable hitting driver? sounds like a bit more patience than I have.
[/quote]

We are not as talented as you bro. If you can change the way to grip,setup and release the club in 2-3 days....you might be king kong. Rory made a few changes with his swing last year and his struggles are well documented. And Rory may not be as talented as you but he does play golf for a living, hits hundreds of balls every day, has access to best technology money can buy. His struggles lasted pretty much the whole year.

Check your fists...there might be a blonde woman in there.

[thedillz]

[quote name='verderraul' timestamp='1411652406' post='10181035']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1411623009' post='10179929']
So you've seen a dude for 2 3 days schools and you still don't feel comfortable hitting driver? sounds like a bit more patience than I have.
[/quote]

We are not as talented as you bro. If you can change the way to grip,setup and release the club in 2-3 days....you might be king kong. Rory made a few changes with his swing last year and his struggles are well documented. And Rory may not be as talented as you but he does play golf for a living, hits hundreds of balls every day, has access to best technology money can buy. His struggles lasted pretty much the whole year.

Check your fists...there might be a blonde woman in there.
[/quote]
King Kong, helluva good golfer... no wait, I was thinking Donkey Kong
[attachment=2432897:donkey kong.jpg]

[Fort Worth Pro]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1411647216' post='10180547']
[quote name='thedillz' timestamp='1411646526' post='10180503']
*This coming from a bit of an outsiders perspective*
If you take out most of the defensiveness and a few of the attacks on some people, this has actually been a pretty good discussion to follow.
Oh, and Tembolo gets to talk about steak too, so pretty much win win.
[/quote]

What's your favorite cut of dead cow?
[/quote] as promised. The pit at coopers BBQ

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1411623009' post='10179929']
So you've seen a dude for 2 3 days schools and you still don't feel comfortable hitting driver? sounds like a bit more patience than I have.


[/quote]
When David Leadbetter started to change Nick Faldo's swing ,he told him that it was going to be a two year project.Even though Nick was already an accomplished professional golfer he hit ten of thousands of balls of which very few were drivers at the beginning .
Many of the students that Geoff attracts want a transformation of their swing..This is not going to happen in a 2 or 3 day period.
To think that one can be comfortable with a driver when their 9-3 motion is quite flawed is the height of irrationality.Now if a golfer has only very minor faults, these can sometimes be corrected in a short period of time,sometimes by just minor grip or setup changes.

The typical student who goes to most other 2 or 3 day schools arrives home in a relative state of euphoria because he(she) thinks that it his (her) swing has been changed for the good..But after reality sinks in and he( she) is confused because so much has covered ,most just revert back to their previous problems.If you want i can cite academic and psychological studies that back this up.
On the other hand students at Slicefixer schools has been read the "riot" act,has been been warned ahead of time(by others and myself) and know that to accomplish his(her) goals he(she) will have to combine patience with the good old American work ethic.This message is not subtle

[tembolo1284]

Hehe russc why is the work ethic American?