Steeper shoulder plane - just cant do it when hitting ball

[JNZ]

[quote name='dornstar' timestamp='1412468487' post='10236815']
PS... sorry for all the editing. These are just pretty detailed posts and I want to make sure it explains it correctly.
[/quote]
No need to apologise, all great stuff. That advice about imagining a wall may be about the best tip I have [b]ever [/b]had, as I have struggled forever with too flat a should plane and getting the club behind me on the backswing. I tried it today and even though it looks pretty much the same as last week the feeling was significantly different and the shot quality much better. I have a lot of work to do!

[hole in 1]

Does anyone find that their shoulder plane gets flatter with the driver? How much of this do you think is due to hitting the ball on more of an ascending blow from a tee?

[aimr75]

I have issues with shoulders being too flat. I just can't get to a better position without it feeling very uncomfortable.

[dornstar]

[quote name='aimr75' timestamp='1412602103' post='10242679']
I have issues with shoulders being too flat. I just can't get to a better position without it feeling very uncomfortable.
[/quote]
Oh, getting into a steeper shoulder turn is definitely more demanding I think. Flatter is so much easier or requires less effort.

[dornstar]

[quote name='JNZ' timestamp='1412481493' post='10237725']
[quote name='dornstar' timestamp='1412468487' post='10236815']
PS... sorry for all the editing. These are just pretty detailed posts and I want to make sure it explains it correctly.
[/quote]
No need to apologise, all great stuff. That advice about imagining a wall may be about the best tip I have [b]ever [/b]had, as I have struggled forever with too flat a should plane and getting the club behind me on the backswing. I tried it today and even though it looks pretty much the same as last week the feeling was significantly different and the shot quality much better. I have a lot of work to do!
[/quote]
The reality is that the difference between a flat shoulder turn and an on plane turn is a matter of the right shoulder turning too deep by a few inches at most. It's not much, but those few inches change everything from how the swing feels to how the club moves. It dictates so much which is why it was the first thing they wanted to fix in my swing.

Oh, another thing is that I had to hit a lot of balls with either foot pulled back which helps you turn a little steeper.

[Golf nerd]

When I do a steeper shoulder turn, I feel a big difference in the right shoulder blade, which moves to the spine in the backswing and causes
a muscular tension- also the right shoulder socket feels steeper/higher. A flatter shoulder turn feels relaxed compared to that. This is a feeling, which
is really a difference and not some average feel vs. real illusion.

[dornstar]

[quote name='Golf nerd' timestamp='1412608107' post='10243095']
When I do a steeper shoulder turn, I feel a big difference in the right shoulder blade, which moves to the spine in the backswing and causes
a muscular tension- also the right shoulder socket feels steeper/higher. A flatter shoulder turn feels relaxed compared to that. This is a feeling, which
is really a difference and not some average feel vs. real illusion.
[/quote]
That's exactly how or where I feel it as well.

And that the reason that there's more people with flat shoulder turn issues than there are people that turn their shoulders too steep. Turning steep is harder work and frankly, I think it requires more athleticism.

[Reasonability]

[quote name='hole in 1' timestamp='1412559912' post='10241111']
Does anyone find that their shoulder plane gets flatter with the driver? How much of this do you think is due to hitting the ball on more of an ascending blow from a tee?
[/quote]

Good post! Today's longer/lighter drivers (IMO) almost invite an issue which teeters on bad posture at setup and a very horizontal shoulder turn. Then to compensate, the swing easily becomes "armsy" and steep and the hands get "flippy". I tend to believe our fascination with hitting it 300+ yards comes at a price until or unless we become disciplined enough to setup and turn well - with all the sticks -- especially wedges AND driver.

[hole in 1]

Doesn't Garcia play with a driver that's 2-3" shorter. He's not bad at hitting fairways!!

[larrybud]

Talking about the "space" between different players when measuring their right shoulder position isn't completely legit since you're not measuring players with the same spine angle at address nor necessarily the same club.

Even within the same player, different clubs will give you different spine angles due to their different lengths. The more upright spine angle will cause more "space" in this right shoulder measurement.

You should measure your shoulder plane angle relative to your spine angle and ignore this right shoulder "space" measurement, imo.

[JNZ]

[quote name='dornstar' timestamp='1412609831' post='10243231']
[quote name='Golf nerd' timestamp='1412608107' post='10243095']
When I do a steeper shoulder turn, I feel a big difference in the right shoulder blade, which moves to the spine in the backswing and causes
a muscular tension- also the right shoulder socket feels steeper/higher. A flatter shoulder turn feels relaxed compared to that. This is a feeling, which
is really a difference and not some average feel vs. real illusion.
[/quote]
That's exactly how or where I feel it as well.

And that the reason that there's more people with flat shoulder turn issues than there are people that turn their shoulders too steep. Turning steep is harder work and frankly, I think it requires more athleticism.
[/quote]

Agree and then there is the issue that there was a lot of focus in the 80's about not tilting the shoulders. Nicklaus flattened his swing and won 2 majors in 80 and there was a lot of talk about how his action actually regressed swing technique when people tried to copy him. In that Tom Watson clip he even mentions that himself. Plus Nick Faldo had a lot of success with his swing change which again focused on a flatter action to avoid tilting. So when does one stop turning on correct plane and become tilting?

I think this shoulder move coupled with Jim Waldron's Arm Swing Illusion is really significant.

[dornstar]

Talking about the "space" between different players when measuring their right shoulder position isn't completely legit since you're not measuring players with the same spine angle at address nor necessarily the same club.

 

Even within the same player, different clubs will give you different spine angles due to their different lengths. The more upright spine angle will cause more "space" in this right shoulder measurement.

 

You should measure your shoulder plane angle relative to your spine angle and ignore this right shoulder "space" measurement, imo.

By legit, you mean information coming from guys who have developed multiple kids into top 50 golfers in the world and coach a huge stable of PGA pros?

 

 

Almost all pros regardless of posture are on or in front of that line +/- an inch or so other than a few guys like Miguel Jimenez or a Heath Slocum.

 

For example, Matt Kuchar and David Toms are polar opposites with much different spine angles, but yet they both hit the same right shoulder depth.... like most pros do...

 

 

 

 

 

Amateurs with flat shoulder turns will miss it often by a substantial amount. Rarely will you find an amateur on the forward side of that line unless they have a reverse pivot or some other major contributing issue.

 

If you hit that line you will be REALLY close to being the right position... and in a position that you won't really have to make compensations for a faulty shoulder tilt. It's a great checkpoint.

[KMeloney]

Interesting thread.

Trying to purposely keep the right shoulder moving up the "shoulder plane" and not around behind me, it seems that I want to:

1. get into a reverse "C" position at the top, and/or

2. not get what feels like a full shoulder turn.

I can clearly see in all of the pro pics in this thread that they're getting full shoulder turns, so obviously this movement doesn't keep you from achieving one… I guess I simply don't know the best way to practice this shoulder movement without falling into the traps I mentioned above.

I know that feels and swing thoughts can be different and many for folks, but is there some general sense about, say, the right shoulder moving up and back, or the left shoulder moving down and around, or turing your chest away in conduction with some other feel, or…?

Any help is appreciated.

[dornstar]

Justin Rose with a driver...

 

 

Justin Rose with a 7 iron...

 

Two different clubs and spine angles.... pretty much the same right shoulder depth.

[dornstar]

Tiger Woods 2000 with Butch Harmon

 

Tiger 2008 with Hank Haney...

 

 

 

Tiger Woods 2013 with Sean Foley...

 

 

Completely different postures, spine angles and motions, but the right shoulder turns to basically the same depth.

 

 

 

 

Most people (including myself) simply do not recognize how much the right shoulder actually moves in a vertical direction.

 

 

 

Jack's right shoulder from address to the top barely moves off the ball at all...

 

[aimr75]

[quote name='dornstar' timestamp='1412606968' post='10242999']
[quote name='aimr75' timestamp='1412602103' post='10242679']
I have issues with shoulders being too flat. I just can't get to a better position without it feeling very uncomfortable.
[/quote]
Oh, getting into a steeper shoulder turn is definitely more demanding I think. Flatter is so much easier or requires less effort.
[/quote]

It's certainly a difficult move, coupled with trying to get a more vertical right forearm at the end of the backswing. That's what makes it so uncomfortable for me. Obviously with a flatter turn that vertical right forearm is much easier to achieve

[JNZ]

dornstar, are you focusing on lifting the right shoulder or what almost feels like dropping the left? I have been doing what feels like lifting the right shoulder but the turn is still pretty flat.

[aimr75]

[quote name='JNZ' timestamp='1413312669' post='10285705']
dornstar, are you focusing on lifting the right shoulder or what almost feels like dropping the left? I have been doing what feels like lifting the right shoulder but the turn is still pretty flat.
[/quote]

I still find this difficult to achieve but one tip I've come across that helps is to get the feeling your left shoulder turns in toward the inside heel or middle of your right foot. It's good in that its a visual queue. You can see it happening as you swing back

[larrybud]

Talking about the "space" between different players when measuring their right shoulder position isn't completely legit since you're not measuring players with the same spine angle at address nor necessarily the same club.

 

Even within the same player, different clubs will give you different spine angles due to their different lengths. The more upright spine angle will cause more "space" in this right shoulder measurement.

 

You should measure your shoulder plane angle relative to your spine angle and ignore this right shoulder "space" measurement, imo.

By legit, you mean information coming from guys who have developed multiple kids into top 50 golfers in the world and coach a huge stable of PGA pros?

 

 

Almost all pros regardless of posture are on or in front of that line +/- an inch or so other than a few guys like Miguel Jimenez or a Heath Slocum.

 

For example, Matt Kuchar and David Toms are polar opposites with much different spine angles, but yet they both hit the same right shoulder depth.... like most pros do...

 

 

 

 

 

Amateurs with flat shoulder turns will miss it often by a substantial amount. Rarely will you find an amateur on the forward side of that line unless they have a reverse pivot or some other major contributing issue.

 

If you hit that line you will be REALLY close to being the right position... and in a position that you won't really have to make compensations for a faulty shoulder tilt. It's a great checkpoint.

 

"Legit" as in a measurement that really matters or that one should strive for.

 

Have Kuchar change his posture by 10 degrees more upright and that right shoulder position will be behind that line, yet the angle of his shoulder plane vs his spine angle won't have changed.

 

Kurchar and Toms also have differences in leg and torso length which will affect where that right shoulder position is. Increase the length of the torso and the right shoulder will be more to the "right" in these pictures, decrease them and it will be more left. Stand up taller and the right shoulder will be more to the left, have a greater spine angle and it will be more to the right.

 

So the real question is what definition of "flat" are you using, otherwise we're just talking in circles.

 

1) Shoulder plane vs an absolute horizontal plane

2) Shoulder plane vs spine angle

3) Other

 

To me, the proper definition would be #2, otherwise one could be diagnosed with a "flat" shoulder turn when in reality he's just coming out of posture, and the "flatness" of the shoulders has nothing to do with his turn.

[larrybud]

Justin Rose with a driver...

 

 

Justin Rose with a 7 iron...

 

Two different clubs and spine angles.... pretty much the same right shoulder depth.

 

And two completely different camera angles. First one we're almost down the line with the ball (just barely inside it), and the second one we're even with the toe line.

[TB07]

[quote name='Mikeybusa1' timestamp='1412195054' post='10219361']
I am trying to steepen my shoulder plane to help keep club in front and shorten swing.

I have no trouble doing it without a ball and have lots of drills that can be done without ball but soon as add ball my shoulders flatten and my swing gets to long.

Any thoughts/drills with ball that can help me get the move I am doing in front of mirror into actual swing

Thanks
[/quote]

You will struggle when hitting the actual ball with steeper shoulders if your arms don't get forward fast enough. If arms get behind and as a result release their angles too soon, steep shoulders will cause fat shots and poor contact.

[Reasonability]

My own imagery, feel, practice, and hopefully execution sort of computes this way...

The address spine angle... you turn around it. The shoulders turn 90 degrees to the spine. The lead arm glides up on plane properly when it runs right through the shoulders as seen in a DTL mirror at the top. If the lead arm is a touch above the trail shoulder socket at the top - the golfer is very clearly (to me) in a two-plane swing position. If slightly below (or perhaps dead on it) he is likely to execute a single-plane swing. If there is proper and adequate hip rotation going on underneath, then the address spine angle is preserved as seen DTL - and from face one the secondary tilt will cause the upper back to land a touch farther away from target than the hips. And if the action of the hips and below is proper there will be no lateral sway from the waist-down as seen face on.

I do very much like the way Dorn is viewing the line down from the right shoulder. Its kind of hard to argue with the pattern he has found in pro swings. REALLY INTERESTING STUFF!!!!!

All I am lobbing into the equation here is that from the ground level still shots in particular, there tends to be a more confusion (for me personally) as to whether or not the arm flow is on plane and the address spine is preserved -- according to what I personally look for in my own DTL mirror and well filmed videos.

To TB07's post - I can personally assimilate what he is saying in the context of what I just explained. Perhaps I'm being stubborn or overly fixated on what I see as fundamentally sound positions and flows from address to the top. Bottom line I like Dorn's find in the photos - a LOT. I'm just trying to "fit it" into the imagery and practice and main points I have come to see as "keys" at the very same place during the swing that these photos were taken.

[dornstar]

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1413390568' post='10292729']
[quote name='Mikeybusa1' timestamp='1412195054' post='10219361']
I am trying to steepen my shoulder plane to help keep club in front and shorten swing.

I have no trouble doing it without a ball and have lots of drills that can be done without ball but soon as add ball my shoulders flatten and my swing gets to long.

Any thoughts/drills with ball that can help me get the move I am doing in front of mirror into actual swing

Thanks
[/quote]

You will struggle when hitting the actual ball with steeper shoulders if your arms don't get forward fast enough. If arms get behind and as a result release their angles too soon, steep shoulders will cause fat shots and poor contact.
[/quote]
That was my experience as well when steepening my shoulders. It definitely took time to get my arms synced up with the steeper shoulder turn.

[Mcaesq]

[quote name='dornstar' timestamp='1413396333' post='10293475']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1413390568' post='10292729']
[quote name='Mikeybusa1' timestamp='1412195054' post='10219361']
I am trying to steepen my shoulder plane to help keep club in front and shorten swing.

I have no trouble doing it without a ball and have lots of drills that can be done without ball but soon as add ball my shoulders flatten and my swing gets to long.

Any thoughts/drills with ball that can help me get the move I am doing in front of mirror into actual swing

Thanks
[/quote]

You will struggle when hitting the actual ball with steeper shoulders if your arms don't get forward fast enough. If arms get behind and as a result release their angles too soon, steep shoulders will cause fat shots and poor contact.
[/quote]
That was my experience as well when steepening my shoulders. It definitely took time to get my arms synced up with the steeper shoulder turn.
[/quote]

I just wanted to emphasize this point to people who may be struggling with a proper shoulder turn. You can try all you want to get a steeper shoulder turn, but you're still going to end up overly flat UNLESS your arms stay connected to your chest (ie, you don't overrun your shoulder turn with your arms).

At least in my experience when I was working on this problem, focusing on making a steeper shoulder turn made me far far far far worse because I would end up over plane and suck my arms way inside for the last 1/4 of the swing to counterbalance my weight. I find it more helpful to think about turning my chest away from the target, which (at least for me) results in a good shoulder turn with good arm position. One way to check this potential issue is look at your backswing at the shaft parallel, arm parallel, and top of BS positions. If your shoulder turn looks good until the top 1/4 or so before flattening out, what I've identified may be the problem.

My favorite drill to practice this is the tried and true "feet together" drill. Awfully hard to hold your balance if you're too flat on the way back.

Another good one to test your chest/arms connection is the pump drill:
(1) take a normal backswing
(2) normal downswing until arm parallel to ground, then do a few pumps bringing the arm to the top of the backswing and then back to the arm parallel position
(3) swing normally

You shouldn't care about contact, just feel.

[dornstar]

.

[dornstar]

Talking about the "space" between different players when measuring their right shoulder position isn't completely legit since you're not measuring players with the same spine angle at address nor necessarily the same club.

 

Even within the same player, different clubs will give you different spine angles due to their different lengths. The more upright spine angle will cause more "space" in this right shoulder measurement.

 

You should measure your shoulder plane angle relative to your spine angle and ignore this right shoulder "space" measurement, imo.

By legit, you mean information coming from guys who have developed multiple kids into top 50 golfers in the world and coach a huge stable of PGA pros?

 

 

Almost all pros regardless of posture are on or in front of that line +/- an inch or so other than a few guys like Miguel Jimenez or a Heath Slocum.

 

For example, Matt Kuchar and David Toms are polar opposites with much different spine angles, but yet they both hit the same right shoulder depth.... like most pros do...

 

 

Amateurs with flat shoulder turns will miss it often by a substantial amount. Rarely will you find an amateur on the forward side of that line unless they have a reverse pivot or some other major contributing issue.

 

If you hit that line you will be REALLY close to being the right position... and in a position that you won't really have to make compensations for a faulty shoulder tilt. It's a great checkpoint.

 

"Legit" as in a measurement that really matters or that one should strive for.

 

Have Kuchar change his posture by 10 degrees more upright and that right shoulder position will be behind that line, yet the angle of his shoulder plane vs his spine angle won't have changed.

 

Kurchar and Toms also have differences in leg and torso length which will affect where that right shoulder position is. Increase the length of the torso and the right shoulder will be more to the "right" in these pictures, decrease them and it will be more left. Stand up taller and the right shoulder will be more to the left, have a greater spine angle and it will be more to the right.

 

So the real question is what definition of "flat" are you using, otherwise we're just talking in circles.

 

1) Shoulder plane vs an absolute horizontal plane

2) Shoulder plane vs spine angle

3) Other

 

To me, the proper definition would be #2, otherwise one could be diagnosed with a "flat" shoulder turn when in reality he's just coming out of posture, and the "flatness" of the shoulders has nothing to do with his turn.

If Kuchar changed his spine angle 10* more upright, he would stand closer to the ball the entire shoulder plane would be more vertical. He would turn the shoulders more vertical up that new plane and it would still hit that spot because let's face it, pros have an uncanny ability to turn their shoulder on the correct plane. That is why almost all professionals regardless of swing style, posture, etc reach that position outside a few aberrations.

 

I mean, you would have to work REALLY hard to find 10 guys that don't do it. Here's the top 10 golfers in the world right now...

 

 

1. Rory... yep.

 

2. Adam Scott... yep.

 

3. Sergio... yep.

 

4. Furyk... yep.

 

5. Stenson... yep.

 

6. Justin Rose.. ya.

 

7. Bubba Watson... hard to find video of him without an open stance, but... yep.

 

8. Jason Day... yep.

 

9. Matt Kuchar... umhmm.

 

10. Rickie Fowler... that's affirmative.

 

 

 

Hitting that spot is a good checkpoint that will have you in a solid position at the top. If you are way behind that as most amateurs who have overly flat shoulder turns do, it'll give you a good reference and using the balls of the feet as a reference or "barrier" is WAY, WAY easier to perceive than trying to have the shoulders work on an imaginary inclined shoulder plane. Learning to turn the shoulders on plane is only half the battle though as golfers have to relearn how the club should come down.

[hogans71]

Good stuff dornstar...

Thank you...

[PJ72]

Talking about the "space" between different players when measuring their right shoulder position isn't completely legit since you're not measuring players with the same spine angle at address nor necessarily the same club.

 

Even within the same player, different clubs will give you different spine angles due to their different lengths. The more upright spine angle will cause more "space" in this right shoulder measurement.

 

You should measure your shoulder plane angle relative to your spine angle and ignore this right shoulder "space" measurement, imo.

By legit, you mean information coming from guys who have developed multiple kids into top 50 golfers in the world and coach a huge stable of PGA pros?

 

 

Almost all pros regardless of posture are on or in front of that line +/- an inch or so other than a few guys like Miguel Jimenez or a Heath Slocum.

 

For example, Matt Kuchar and David Toms are polar opposites with much different spine angles, but yet they both hit the same right shoulder depth.... like most pros do...

 

 

Amateurs with flat shoulder turns will miss it often by a substantial amount. Rarely will you find an amateur on the forward side of that line unless they have a reverse pivot or some other major contributing issue.

 

If you hit that line you will be REALLY close to being the right position... and in a position that you won't really have to make compensations for a faulty shoulder tilt. It's a great checkpoint.

 

"Legit" as in a measurement that really matters or that one should strive for.

 

Have Kuchar change his posture by 10 degrees more upright and that right shoulder position will be behind that line, yet the angle of his shoulder plane vs his spine angle won't have changed.

 

Kurchar and Toms also have differences in leg and torso length which will affect where that right shoulder position is. Increase the length of the torso and the right shoulder will be more to the "right" in these pictures, decrease them and it will be more left. Stand up taller and the right shoulder will be more to the left, have a greater spine angle and it will be more to the right.

 

So the real question is what definition of "flat" are you using, otherwise we're just talking in circles.

 

1) Shoulder plane vs an absolute horizontal plane

2) Shoulder plane vs spine angle

3) Other

 

To me, the proper definition would be #2, otherwise one could be diagnosed with a "flat" shoulder turn when in reality he's just coming out of posture, and the "flatness" of the shoulders has nothing to do with his turn.

If Kuchar changed his spine angle 10* more upright, he would stand closer to the ball the entire shoulder plane would be more vertical. He would turn the shoulders more vertical up that new plane and it would still hit that spot because let's face it, pros have an uncanny ability to turn their shoulder on the correct plane. That is why almost all professionals regardless of swing style, posture, etc reach that position outside a few aberrations.

 

I mean, you would have to work REALLY hard to find 10 guys that don't do it. Here's the top 10 golfers in the world right now...

 

 

1. Rory... yep.

 

2. Adam Scott... yep.

 

3. Sergio... yep.

 

4. Furyk... yep.

 

5. Stenson... yep.

 

6. Justin Rose.. ya.

 

7. Bubba Watson... hard to find video of him without an open stance, but... yep.

 

8. Jason Day... yep.

 

9. Matt Kuchar... umhmm.

 

10. Rickie Fowler... that's affirmative.

 

 

 

Hitting that spot is a good checkpoint that will have you in a solid position at the top. If you are way behind that as most amateurs who have overly flat shoulder turns do, it'll give you a good reference and using the balls of the feet as a reference or "barrier" is WAY, WAY easier to perceive than trying to have the shoulders work on an imaginary inclined shoulder plane. Learning to turn the shoulders on plane is only half the battle though as golfers have to relearn how the club should come down.

 

 

I take it you mean more horizontal?

 

I'm not sure if I get your drift here. Do you mean that you are physically trying to make your shoulders turn more vertically, whilst keeping your spine angle more vertical?

 

If you want to swing the shoulders more vertical, then you need to set them up more vertical at address - i.e. bend more from the hips. I'm not getting why you want to contort them away from the spine angle.

 

This thing with the right shoulder always being over the balls of the feet, isn't that just a consequence of being in balance? I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with whether you turn the shoulders steep or shallow.

[sludd]

[quote name='larrybud' timestamp='1412616534' post='10243739']
Talking about the "space" between different players when measuring their right shoulder position isn't completely legit since you're not measuring players with the same spine angle at address nor necessarily the same club.

Even within the same player, different clubs will give you different spine angles due to their different lengths. The more upright spine angle will cause more "space" in this right shoulder measurement.

You should measure your shoulder plane angle relative to your spine angle and ignore this right shoulder "space" measurement, imo.
[/quote]

Interesting thoughts on the position of the right shoulder at the top - the thing is, the amateur swing showing the very deep position also clearly shows a golfer who is badly out of posture (and standing up somewhat) at the top of the backswing, which has a significant effect on the shoulder plane.

If we look at each of the professionals shown in the thread, they are all able to maintain their initial forward spine angle at the top and this has a major effect on the position of the right shoulder in relation to the toeline. More interesting to me is their "actual" shoulder plane at the top (where the shoulders are pointing at on the ground). Some are way outside the ball to target line (flatter), some are a bit closer to the ball/target line (steeper) but none have a shoulder plane that points inside the ball.

In measuring shoulder plane, we must first be sure the golfer is in a good posture at the top - only then can we identify the true shoulder plane (rather than just the position relative to the toeline). We can see that there is a wide variation in this among the best players, suggesting that steep or flat can work effectively, but one's posture is of critical importance throughout the swing, not just at address.

[Dave D]

Some great posts here dornstar! Never known of a way to check shoulder plane easily on video. You can see all the players have it over there right foot. My turn is too flat and right shoulder behind my heels and stand up a bit on the backswing. Great to now have a checkpoint for the backswing.