Nearest Point of relief - club used

[Guia]

Someone show me the rule where it says "must" use the club that the shot will be taken with. It does not exist.

[HitEmTrue]

Guia, couple things I haven't seen mentioned.

Often times, no measurement with a club is used at all in determining NPR. For example, right handed golfer on the left side of cart path, NPR will be just a few inches to the left of the cart path. If the ball is toward the right side of path, he should take is stance with a club in his hand (the one he intends to use), to see how far to the right of the path that point needs to be to take his stance off the path. He may discover NPR is still to the left of the path.

The USGA a handy diagram illustrating this....maybe someone can post it.

[Newby]

[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1417726376' post='10543845']
Someone show me the rule where it says "must" use the club that the shot will be taken with. It does not exist.
[/quote]

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1106337-am-i-seeing-things/page__st__30#entry10529643

[KevCarter]

[b] RELIEF FROM IMMOVABLE OBSTRUCTIONS[/b]


[b] 24-2b/1[/b]

[b] Determining "Nearest Point of Relief"[/b]

Q.The Note to the Definition of "Nearest Point of Relief" provides that the player should determine this point by using "the club with which he would have made his next stroke if the condition were not there to simulate the address position, direction of play and swing for such stroke." May the player use any club, address position, direction of play or swing in determining the nearest point of relief?

A.No. In determining the nearest point of relief accurately it is recommended that the player use the club, address position, direction of play and swing (right or left-handed) that he would have used had the obstruction or condition not been there. For example, the player has interference from an immovable obstruction and, were it not for the obstruction, he would have used a right-handed stroke with a 4-iron to play the ball from its original position towards the green. To determine the nearest point of relief accurately, he should use a right-handed stroke with a 4-iron and the direction of play should be towards the green. See also Decisions <a href="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-20/#d20-2c-0.7">20-2c/0.7 and [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-20/#d20-2c-0.8"]20-2c/0.8[/url].

[QEight]

[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1417725580' post='10543743']
Nothing says "must" it said "should".

Have you ever watched a tournament where a player used a putter to take a measurement. I have never seen anything but a driver used.
[/quote]

Very rarely in tournament there is a requirement to determine NPR using a club. Most of the time on the side of road etc there is no need to use club for this. After the point is determined, then the club, usually long one, does come out.

[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1417726376' post='10543845']
Someone show me the rule where it says "must" use the club that the shot will be taken with. It does not exist.
[/quote]

You very well know that rule use words recommended and should. But when you read decision 20-2c/0.7 and /0.8 you will notice that Rules assume you have used (or imaginarily used) a club to determine NPR.

If you are in deep rough 90 yards from pin, there is a fence next to ball, would you take your driver out to find out NPR?

[HitEmTrue]

[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1417726376' post='10543845']
Someone show me the rule where it says "must" use the club that the shot will be taken with. It does not exist.
[/quote]

Because you can estimate the point without a club at all! But if you get called out on it, you better be able to demonstrate that your NPR was correct using proper club.

See dec 24-2b/1 and 24-2b/1.

[QEight]

[quote name='HitEmTrue' timestamp='1417727134' post='10543949']
See dec 24-2b/1 and 24-2b/1.
[/quote]

Sometimes comprehending requires repeating!

[tatertot]

[quote name='kevcarter' timestamp='1417727018' post='10543927']
[b] RELIEF FROM IMMOVABLE OBSTRUCTIONS[/b]


[b] 24-2b/1[/b]

[b] Determining "Nearest Point of Relief"[/b]

Q.The Note to the Definition of "Nearest Point of Relief" provides that the player should determine this point by using "the club with which he would have made his next stroke if the condition were not there to simulate the address position, direction of play and swing for such stroke." May the player use any club, address position, direction of play or swing in determining the nearest point of relief?

A.No. In determining the nearest point of relief accurately it is recommended that the player use the club, address position, direction of play and swing (right or left-handed) that he would have used had the obstruction or condition not been there. For example, the player has interference from an immovable obstruction and, were it not for the obstruction, he would have used a right-handed stroke with a 4-iron to play the ball from its original position towards the green. To determine the nearest point of relief accurately, he should use a right-handed stroke with a 4-iron and the direction of play should be towards the green. See also Decisions <a href="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-20/#d20-2c-0.7">20-2c/0.7 and [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-20/#d20-2c-0.8"]20-2c/0.8[/url].
[/quote]

This isn't about measuring ... it's about see if you get relief.

Example:
Your ball is near the green and you're going to chip. However, if you take our your driver and use a driver stance, you are standing on the cart path. You do not get relief from the cart path, because you are not using the driver for the shot.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='tatertot' timestamp='1417727253' post='10543977']
[quote name='kevcarter' timestamp='1417727018' post='10543927']
[b] RELIEF FROM IMMOVABLE OBSTRUCTIONS[/b]


[b] 24-2b/1[/b]

[b] Determining "Nearest Point of Relief"[/b]

Q.The Note to the Definition of "Nearest Point of Relief" provides that the player should determine this point by using "the club with which he would have made his next stroke if the condition were not there to simulate the address position, direction of play and swing for such stroke." May the player use any club, address position, direction of play or swing in determining the nearest point of relief?

A.No. In determining the nearest point of relief accurately it is recommended that the player use the club, address position, direction of play and swing (right or left-handed) that he would have used had the obstruction or condition not been there. For example, the player has interference from an immovable obstruction and, were it not for the obstruction, he would have used a right-handed stroke with a 4-iron to play the ball from its original position towards the green. To determine the nearest point of relief accurately, he should use a right-handed stroke with a 4-iron and the direction of play should be towards the green. See also Decisions <a href="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-20/#d20-2c-0.7">20-2c/0.7 and [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-20/#d20-2c-0.8"]20-2c/0.8[/url].
[/quote]

This isn't about measuring ... it's about see if you get relief.

Example:
Your ball is near the green and you're going to chip. However, if you take our your driver and use a driver stance, you are standing on the cart path. You do not get relief from the cart path, because you are not using the driver for the shot.
[/quote]

WTF

[QEight]

[quote name='kevcarter' timestamp='1417727442' post='10544007']
WTF
[/quote]

Someone is late in to the party.

[HitEmTrue]

Lol

Take a deep breath, Kev.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='HitEmTrue' timestamp='1417727729' post='10544033']
Lol

Take a deep breath, Kev.
[/quote]

LOL

[Guia]

The rule does not say "must" it says "recommended" and "should". So you can use any club in the bag. That was my answer to the OPs question, any club.
Further, I made no attempt to determine when to use a club in taking relief, I addressed that when taking a club to measure "it can be any club in the bag".
I made no attempt to list or explain relief options, just what club could be used.
[color=#282828][b]24-2b/1[/b]

[b]Determining "Nearest Point of Relief"[/b]

Q.The Note to the Definition of "Nearest Point of Relief" provides that the player should determine this point by using "the club with which he would have made his next stroke if the condition were not there to simulate the address position, direction of play and swing for such stroke." May the player use any club, address position, direction of play or swing in determining the nearest point of relief?

A.No. In determining the nearest point of relief accurately it is recommended that the player use the club, address position, direction of play and swing (right or left-handed) that he would have used had the obstruction or condition not been there. For example, the player has interference from an immovable obstruction and, were it not for the obstruction, he would have used a right-handed stroke with a 4-iron to play the ball from its original position towards the green. To determine the nearest point of relief accurately, he should use a right-handed stroke with a 4-iron and the direction of play should be towards the green. See also Decisions <a href="[url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-20/#d20-2c-0.7"]http://www.usga.org/...-20/#d20-2c-0.7[/url]">20-2c/0.7 and [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-20/#d20-2c-0.8"]20-2c/0.8[/url]. [/color][list]
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[Mr. Bean]

[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1417726724' post='10543889']
[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1417726376' post='10543845']
Someone show me the rule where it says "must" use the club that the shot will be taken with. It does not exist.
[/quote]

[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1106337-am-i-seeing-things/page__st__30#entry10529643"]http://www.golfwrx.c...0#entry10529643[/url]
[/quote]

That's cool, Newby. One asks for a Rule and you point him to a discussion that has not come to a conclusion.... [size=4]Well, Guia is lost anyway, so what's another step towards dark ages ;-)[/size]


Seriously, there is no Rule whatsoever saying you MUST use a specific club to determine NPR. However, if you fail to follow the procedure described in D24-2b/1 you may end up playing your ball from a wrong place. But regardless of this, there is NO Rule saying you MUST... and so on.

I am well aware of what Colin L is saying (in the other thread) but we have had this discussion earlier 2-4 years ago on another site where Colin L is also active and the outcome was as I say. It is just the same with any dropping. You do not have to measure the area but you need to drop it on a place within the Rules. The fact that you need to be able to show that you are doing the right thing is another matter. And yes, it is very semantic, I admit.

And Guia, you really need to learn the difference between determining and measuring. The video you linked has nothing to do with determining NPR, none whatsoever.

[Guia]

Why am I lost and in the dark ages, take great exception to your comment. I answered the original question as to what club, and thats all.

[KevCarter]

Guia,

Homework.

1) Learn how to take relief when operating under [b]Unplayable Lie[/b]

2) Learn how to take relief from an [b]Immovable Obstruction[/b]

You will find there is one more procedure involved with taking relief from an [b]Immovable Obstruction[/b]. It takes place before measuring your 1 club length relief.

Hint [size=1](nearest point of relief)[/size], that extra step [size=1](nearest point of relief)[/size] is in the title of the thread [size=1](nearest point of relief)[/size] and the part of the question [size=1](nearest point of relief)[/size] you are not recognizing.

[tesuquegolfer]

Guia brings up a good point about must vs should. I would contend that golf is a game of integrity and one [b]should [/b]abide by the [b]intent [/b]of the rule. I have to trust that the person taking the NPoR is using the club he/she intends to hit. Once the balls is in play, if a different club is needed, I wouldn't have an issue. I have never seen anyone use a significantly different club to take the NPoR than they actually used to play the shot and I have played quite a few tournaments. Most people just don't really know the rule and confuse the drop process vs the NPoR. However, if I saw a guy taking driver to establish his NPoR within 150 yds of the green I would call him out. He could certainly be within his rights to use Guia's argument that he isn't "required" to use a specific club. However, I would still raise the point that he is not playing within the intent of the rules. I hope I never have to use that argument but I would lose respect for the guy and certainly let others know what happened.

[HitEmTrue]

If the rule said MUST, it would create quite a mess. Determining NPR often doesn't require a club or an actual stance, and every time we stick a tee in the ground 5 inches to the left of that drain or cart path (sorry left-handed golfers), we'd be in breach of the rules.

The next step, where you MUST drop within one club length of NPR, doesn't even say you MUST measure that distance at all!

[Guia]

KevCarter: I have read the USGA rules. Trying to make your point *** you keep referring to things I never addressed and were not asked in the OP.

Again, for all you hardheaded posters.

I only answered the OPs request as to what club was allowable to use in measurement. ***

[KevCarter]

[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1417730775' post='10544361']
KevCarter: I have read the USGA rules. Trying to make your point *** you keep referring to things I never addressed and were not asked in the OP.

Again, for all you hardheaded posters.

I only answered the OPs request as to what club was allowable to use in measurement. ***
[/quote]

Is English not your first language? My apologies if it's not, I should have gone slower.

The title of the thread is [b]Nearest Point of Relief[/b]... He was asking what club to use when finding nearest point of relief. Of course you don't [i]have[/i] to use a certain club, as long as you drop within the same area as if you did use the proper club. Your video shows measuring 2 club lengths, finding the MAXIMUM point you may drop into... Two separate operations.

I'm in Minnesota, so pounding sand is out of the question, I'll go pound snow if it will make you feel better.

[Guia]

Then use snow.

[HitEmTrue]

[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1417730775' post='10544361']
I only answered the OPs request as to what club was allowable to use in measurement.
[/quote]

Guia, are you allowed to lay the driver on the ground while measuring [sic] NPR?

Before I pound sand, I would like a simple yes or no to that question.

[Guia]

At the fear of being lynched with 10 new posts giving reasons to no, I respond thusly. It is usually accomplished by laying it on the ground and marking beginning and ending of club with tees, and dropping within the markers.

I used to live in San Angelo, TX so I know there is a lot of sand there to pound

[sui generis]

[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1417724970' post='10543687']
My reply was to the OPs question about what club was allowable for use when taking measurement for a drop. Nothing else, no and ifs or butts.

Why am I getting hammered????????????

It was a simple question and a simple answer. ANY FRIGGIN CLUB IN THE BAG.
[/quote]

Time you stopped digging the hole you're in any deeper.

[Guia]

I didn't dig the hole, others dug it.

[HitEmTrue]

[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1417736123' post='10544797']
At the fear of being lynched with 10 new posts giving reasons to no, I respond thusly. It is usually accomplished by laying it on the ground and marking beginning and ending of club with tees, and dropping within the markers.

I used to live in San Angelo, TX so I know there is a lot of sand there to pound
[/quote]

So....I'm taking relief from an obstruction. My ball is on the right side of an electrical box. This electrical box is quite large. I'm right handed, and NPR is to the right of the box.

When I lay the driver on the ground, where do I put the end of the driver. The starting point of the measurement, so to speak.

Lots of clay around here, but I'm sure I can find some sand.

[Mr. Herbert]

This is the best thread ever.

[Guia]

Okay. Here goes I am a gluten for punishment. I think first you take your stance at the nearest point of relief, place the butt end of the club at that point, mark with a tee and butt end and another at the head of the club. Drop between the tees and ensure you roll no closer to the hole.

[HitEmTrue]

[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1417743627' post='10545467']
Okay. Here goes I am a gluten for punishment. I think first you take your stance at the nearest point of relief, place the butt end of the club at that point, mark with a tee and butt end and another at the head of the club. Drop between the tees and ensure you roll no closer to the hole.
[/quote]

Actually, not bad. You place one end of the driver at the nearest point of relief.

Finding that nearest point of relief is the...uh....point of this thread.

In my example it would involve taking a stance. Oh, I was gonna hit 7 iron, so I stand there with or without a seven iron (cuz it doesn't say must)...I find the closest place that I could safely swing that club and not hit the electrical box. Then I imagine where that ball would be on the ground and put a tee in the ground at that point.

Then grab the driver and measure from there.

On tv, you'll see the player stand near the obstruction in an imaginary stance, and the official ( or ref, one of the other curmudgeons will correct me in this point ) will point to the ground on where the ball would be for that stance ( the NPR) and the player will put the first tee in the ground.

The player then gets his driver and measures from there. Unless his name is Adam Scott, in which case he gets out his 75" putter.

[golow]

[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1417743627' post='10545467']
Okay. Here goes I am a gluten for punishment. I think first you take your stance at the nearest point of relief, place the butt end of the club at that point, mark with a tee and butt end and another at the head of the club. Drop between the tees and ensure you roll no closer to the hole.
[/quote]

I'll play.

And how pray tell did you determine said nearest point of relief before you pulled your driver or long putter out of your bag ?

golow(TM) ... Gluten free but a glutton for this thread