Another "Pros versus Ams" thread. This time it's a hypothetical....

[BigSky59]

[quote name='Obee' timestamp='1420056012' post='10666739']
[quote name='JJH_PGA' timestamp='1420055832' post='10666721']
What scores did you guys put up each day individually from these tees? On the Am team...
[/quote]

So that's a good question, but it's hard to answer because were were not really playing standard golf. Because it was a 2-best balls format, we were all being fairly aggressive with shots if we knew that one of our buddies had already secured par. Suffice to say that our low round was a 68 and all of us were right around 72 more or less each day with the exception of the first day where two of the four of us simply played poorly, and one of us still had a BAC of 1.1!! LOL!!
[/quote]
Sounds like an awesome experience. BAC of 1.1 is pretty impressive. At least he can say he put up some form of a good number that first day.

[Obee]

Another interesting thing is that each one of us had a day where we really shone. I think we all had a day where we made six birdies. This time of year, for an amateur, it's just really difficult to be consistent at our course. The green firmness and the dormant Bermuda fairways make it very, very difficult to be precise with your irons if you're not a pro-level ball-striker. And if you miss the greens, you get lots of patchy weirdness that you have to hit out of. Very tough conditions right now for us to play consistent golf.

[monkeynaut]

Curious about how hard the pros were playing to win.
I'm sure winning meant more to you guys than them. Any chance they were just having fun?

[Obee]

[quote name='monkeynaut' timestamp='1420057351' post='10666847']
Curious about how hard the pros were playing to win.
I'm sure winning meant more to you guys than them. Any chance they were just having fun?
[/quote]

Another great question, and one that deserves a thoughtful response. The short answer is: No chance.

A longer answer: 1) Rickie shot 62 the first day and had a 15-foot on 18 to tie the course record. All day long we looked back and saw him lining up his line when putting and grinding. Bear Creek was his home course for years, and he doesn't come out and shoot 62 if he's "just having fun." Can he? Of course. He can shoot 62 having fun; he can shoot 62 grinding; he can shoot 62 any number of ways. According to his playing partners, he was literally putting the lights out the first day. Making everything. He shot 64 the second day and again played amazingly well. The final day he shot about what I would expect him to shoot, on average, if he played the course 100 times. Maybe slightly lower, like 67.5 or something.

2) Pernice tries hard all the time, every time. That's just the way he is. It is, in fact, who he is. He's the consummate pro and the reason he's been able to make $20 million as a pro is that reason.

3) The other two pros are struggling young pros, and the money we played for is important to them. In addition, Pernice and Fowler KNOW that it's important to them, so they are giving it their all for that reason.

4) Make no mistake, I'm not saying that Rickie and Pernice treated it like a major, but they don't have to in order to play their best. Were they focused? Absolutely. Did they care? Absolutely. Did we have fun? Absolutely. :-)

[animalgolfs]

If you look at Fowler last year, you're basically playing against the No. 2 player in the world. If he makes the putts in the Open, you got the kid as the champ.

He is ridiculously good...he played 4 rounds at a normal tour stop for him. Like -24 under.

Great story....

[Obee]

[quote name='oldflgolfer' timestamp='1420058848' post='10666991']
If you look at Fowler last year, you're basically playing against the No. 2 player in the world. If he makes the putts in the Open, you got the kid as the champ.

He is ridiculously good...he played 4 rounds at a normal tour stop for him. Like -24 under.

Great story....
[/quote]

So here's just one hole that blew me away. It was on our second day. Our 14th hole, from the black tees is 543 yards. The tee shot is slightly downhill, but the next shot is up a long, steady incline and usually into the wind.
The second shot plays a good 13 - 18 yards uphill from 250.

We were playing in front of Rickie on this day, and as we had hit from the white tees at 475, Rickie and the others knew that they could hit while we were in the fairway. I watched as Rickie hit and then lasered back to his ball when he got up to it. I had outdriven him by exactly 20 yards (but with a SEVENTY yard advantage!), which means he outdrove me by 50, which is about what I figured for him.

So we play the hole and after we finish the hole, we decide to watch Rickie hit. He has 235 to cover a bunker and 255 to a back-left pin playing 268 at least due to the uphill and maybe take off 8 or so for a bit of helping wind, so figure it's playing 260, but he wants to land it short because of the firmness of the greens and the uphill nature of the shot. He hits what I later find out from him is a [b]FIVE WOOD[/b] to 15 feet. The shot never left the pin. The greens are rock hard. He judged it perfectly and it landed just over the bunker and rolled just past the hole and stopped in the fringe.

One of the best shots I've ever seen.

[Frostfield]

So day 1 was an extreme example. Your team was basically a 3 man cause of drunk boy and RF made 10 birdies. That's rare even for him.

[Obee]

[quote name='Frostfield' timestamp='1420062650' post='10667291']
So day 1 was an extreme example. Your team was basically a 3 man cause of drunk boy and RF made 10 birdies. That's rare even for him.
[/quote]

He actually made 9 birdies and an eagle and had one bogey. :-)

[playa]

Very well played Obee, keeping the pros honest the last coue days is an achievement. Anyone whk watches the World Cup.can see the sorts of scores top pros can put up in this type.of format. Your story also shiws that there are three levels here. The scratch ams, then the two up and coming pros, then the legit tour players. Rickie is probably another level again above Pernice as an elite tour player. Not dissing the scratch ams, but it really shows the enormous gulf between really good club players and guys who make it on tour. And it shows how incredibly talented the elite pros like Rickie are.

[Tim Sherwood]

Obee - superb thread mate, love it. Most entertaining thing I've read for a while, cheers for writing it up!

[Obee]

[quote name='playa' timestamp='1420066726' post='10667615']
Very well played Obee, keeping the pros honest the last coue days is an achievement. Anyone whk watches the World Cup.can see the sorts of scores top pros can put up in this type.of format. Your story also shiws that there are three levels here. The scratch ams, then the two upevel above Pernice as an elite tour player. Not dissing the scratch ams, but it really shows the enormous gulf between really good club players and guys who make it on tour. And it shows how incredibly talented the elite pros.lime Rickie are.
[/quote]

Spot on, Playa. :-)

If you ever ready any of my posts, you'll quickly notice how I'm big on "levels" of play. I'm also big on everyone being able to get at least two levels than they currently are with a lot of hard work and dedication and the right mind-set. Age and physical limitations come into play of course.

[playa]

[quote name='Obee' timestamp='1420067051' post='10667639']
[quote name='playa' timestamp='1420066726' post='10667615']
Very well played Obee, keeping the pros honest the last coue days is an achievement. Anyone whk watches the World Cup.can see the sorts of scores top pros can put up in this type.of format. Your story also shiws that there are three levels here. The scratch ams, then the two upevel above Pernice as an elite tour player. Not dissing the scratch ams, but it really shows the enormous gulf between really good club players and guys who make it on tour. And it shows how incredibly talented the elite pros.lime Rickie are.
[/quote]

Spot on, Playa. :-)

If you ever ready any of my posts, you'll quickly notice how I'm big on "levels" of play. I'm also big on everyone being able to get at least two levels than they currently are with a lot of hard work and dedication and the right mind-set. Age and physical limitations come into play of course.
[/quote]
I just fixed my post, for some reason it left out the bits I had on levels of play, but you got where I was coming from. I'm a realostic mid single level amateur and accept that with my time and talent restrictions the best I can hope for is low single digits, but I know plenty of juniors at clubs I play at with dreams of getting on tour before they are even scratch ams. Your story is a reality check of just how high that mountain is to climb.

[awil]

I'm gonna chime in a late here . My dad is iffy with his game his handicap is not accuarte of his play at all his cap is established from 6500 but It wouldn't budge much if he moved up to 7100 or down to 6100 so I give him yardage over strokes . Usually I let my dad play from 6100 and I'll play 7100 and the game will be fair for awhile with where he can force a birdie or two that he couldn't make from 6500 or even hit the green in 2 from 7100

[jons1]

This me reminds me of the time I played head to head against Tiger and had him down 5 holes and he whispered, please let me win this, I'll split the money with you, and I was like, whatever Tiger... throw in some free nike clubs and we'll call it even.

Anyway, great thread. I hope RF plays his best in the majors this year... just a great young guy.

[Hawkeye77]

On a scale of 0-10 on the envy meter, reading threads of guys going to The Masters = 8, this thread = 10.

Sounds like a really fun experience and a great time. Thanks for sharing the story.

You've probably observed this many times, and others here have suggested it, but do you find the pros' long game a difference maker, and whether it is or isn't how did the pro/amateur differences manifest themselves in shotmaking?

[sharkiesj]

Obee you played with Ian and Tom and Rick?

I've played with Rick and he's solid.

Josh Anderson is the other pro, Rickie's high school bud fom MV, but I don't know the other pro. Who is it?

[RBImGuy]

[quote name='Obee' timestamp='1419968097' post='10661251']
Okay, so here's the deal:

Let's say that Rickie Fowler, Tom Pernice, Jr., and two legit young pros (one a four-time first team All-WCC selection at Pepperdine who made it to the finals of Q-School last year; the other played on the Oklahoma State golf team and just turned pro) were to play four scratch (all of us in our forties or fifties) amateurs in a two best balls of four match with no strokes, but with a substantial yardage advantage on each hole.

What do you think the outcome would be if the pros played the blacks (7,157/75.7/146) and we played the whites (6010, 68.7/128). The venue is the home course for all eight players, so there's no advantage there in terms of "comfort" or "course knowledge." This time of year the greens are extremely firm and fast. So firm that a full wedge shot barely makes an indentation in the greens and they are running 12.5 to 13 on the stimp.

Is that a fair bet? Lopsided? If so, what way?

Interested to see the responses.... :-)
[/quote]

Pros win every time.

[joeshmo]

This is a great story and I honestly don't want to derail this...but I have to ask.
How long did it take 4 pros to play 18 holes on a somewhat casual round?

[Obee]

[quote name='joeshmo' timestamp='1420108122' post='10669299']This is a great story and I honestly don't want to derail this...but I have to ask.
How long did it take 4 pros to play 18 holes on a somewhat casual round?[/quote]

It was in the neighborhood of 4:45. It was over the holidays so the course was pretty packed. They were grinding on every meaningful putt. We watched them on as many holes as we could and they were helping each other read putts, re-adjusting their lines, etc.

The overwhelming majority of players at our club play pretty quickly. We usually get around in 3:45 to 4:20, which isn't bad considering the very high slope rating (146) of the course. Also, Rickie is a super fast player on tour. He doesn't waste any time out there if you've ever followed him around. I think over the last year or two he's gotten a bit more deliberate, though, which I think is good for him.

[Obee]

[quote name='RBImGuy' timestamp='1420107341' post='10669281'][quote name='Obee' timestamp='1419968097' post='10661251']
Okay, so here's the deal:

Let's say that Rickie Fowler, Tom Pernice, Jr., and two legit young pros (one a four-time first team All-WCC selection at Pepperdine who made it to the finals of Q-School last year; the other played on the Oklahoma State golf team and just turned pro) were to play four scratch (all of us in our forties or fifties) amateurs in a two best balls of four match with no strokes, but with a substantial yardage advantage on each hole.

What do you think the outcome would be if the pros played the blacks (7,157/75.7/146) and we played the whites (6010, 68.7/128). The venue is the home course for all eight players, so there's no advantage there in terms of "comfort" or "course knowledge." This time of year the greens are extremely firm and fast. So firm that a full wedge shot barely makes an indentation in the greens and they are running 12.5 to 13 on the stimp.

Is that a fair bet? Lopsided? If so, what way?

Interested to see the responses.... :-)
[/quote]

Pros win every time.[/quote]

Nope. :-)

[Obee]

[quote name='sharkiesj' timestamp='1420103727' post='10669241']Obee you played with Ian and Tom and Rick?

I've played with Rick and he's solid.

Josh Anderson is the other pro, Rickie's high school bud fom MV, but I don't know the other pro. Who is it?[/quote]

Not Tom, Todd.

The other pro was Dougherty. On the final when we were fivesomes, it was a pro buddy of Rickie's. Can't remember his name, as we only briefly met afterwards.

[Pure745]

Obee,

What would happen in this situation?

Your club's group of 8 "scratch golfers" + 2 pro's vs. my club's group of 8 "scratch golfers" + 2 pro's, 1 pro on each team has won on tour on the Champions Tour in '14. 2 day event, USGA team play format, who wins?



PS. We need to get a round in soon, need you too look at my putting stroke

[Obee]

It is, actually their long games that make the biggest difference. I will expand later.

[joeshmo]

Do you think it would have been a + or - if the groups were made up with 2 pros and 2 ams?
Maybe being more in touch with your position during the round?

[SatelliteGuy]

Bah... Read a few more posts and realized this is a glory story and not a hypothetical.

N/M my thoughts!

Carry on.

[Obee]

[quote name='joeshmo' timestamp='1420156461' post='10671787']Do you think it would have been a + or - if the groups were made up with 2 pros and 2 ams?
Maybe being more in touch with your position during the round?[/quote]

Probably a negative due to added pressure for us.

[MtlJeff]

All in all this was an awesome thread and much thanks to Obee for sharing....but can we change the title to "Another pro vs ams thread, but this time this sh*t totally happened"

because it did happen!

But still, really cool story and gives some insight into the talent level of a guy like Fowler

[Edaw68]

0.1 BAC the next day? Damn, that would put him well over a 0.2 the prior night. That's more impressive than a 260 yard uphill 5 wood.

[Obee]

[quote name='Edaw68' timestamp='1420160077' post='10672051']0.1 BAC the next day? Damn, that would put him well over a 0.2 the prior night. That's more impressive than a 260 yard uphill 5 wood.[/quote]

I'm exaggerating. A bit. LOL

[playa]

[quote name='Obee' timestamp='1420155835' post='10671743']
It is, actually their long games that make the biggest difference. I will expand later.
[/quote]
I'll be very interested to hear your opinion as it has been my experience that short game is the biggest difference, but my experience is local pro ams with mostly trainee or no status pros, not legit tour players. On tv or even at a tournent you don't really get to see the long game from a real perspective so your experience of watching them hit from inside the ropes will be enlightening.