We have launched our new enhanced Editor. There is an overview and tutorial Here.

Why swinging over the top is good and how is shallows the swing.

 Jonnybagadonuts ·  
JonnybagadonutsJonnybagadonuts  1089WRX Points: 35Members Posts: 1,089
Joined:  edited Feb 12, 2015 in Instruction & Academy #1
So many of us are under the impression that swinging "over the top" is the worst thing that you can do. Also we get caught up in trying to shallow the swing

by dropping the club behind us or trying to turn the left arm clockwise while in transition ( Hogan,) .



i dont know if you have ever tried turning your arms clockwise in transition but its extremely difficult motion and requires a tremendous amount of timing.



We are looking at the transition of the great players and misinterpreting what is going on . What actually is happening is that they are swinging " OVER THE TOP " of the initial plane . Which in turn

is squaring the club face. I like to call it swinging over the top from the inside. There is no conscious twisting or chain pulling or side arm throwing. Its simply getting to a backswing position where the club is in sync with the body and on a neutral plane to slightly underneath . From there its simply rotating what feels like over the top. The pieces of the puzzle fall in place the club drops behind the player slighty which shallows out the swing path and the shoulders have more then enough room to rotate freely .



A perfect example is Robert Rock.







https://www.youtube....h?v=FopnOW_-UCw
Posted:
«13456
6

Comments

  • ThrillhouseThrillhouse EVERYTHING'S COMING UP THRILLHOUSE!  11165WRX Points: 17Members Posts: 11,165
    Joined:  #2
    Check out jim McLean reverse slotting on YouTube for more about this. A lot of great players do it, it's a really good way to play.
    Posted:
  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
    Joined:  ...

    Advertisement
  • lv_2_hacklv_2_hack Texas 2340WRX Points: 113Members Posts: 2,340
    Joined:  edited Feb 12, 2015 #3
    Typically a really good fade pattern.
    Posted:
    Lots of Callaway Stuff
  • JonnybagadonutsJonnybagadonuts  1089WRX Points: 35Members Posts: 1,089
    Joined:  #4
    lv_2_hack wrote:


    Typically a really good fade pattern.




    I was hitting some pretty powerful push draws with ease, almost automatic . I think it all stems from your original tip to me of the karate chop move.
    Posted:
  • JonnybagadonutsJonnybagadonuts  1089WRX Points: 35Members Posts: 1,089
    Joined:  #5
    2 more great examples







    Posted:
  • pinhigh27pinhigh27  9794WRX Points: 308Members Posts: 9,794
    Joined:  #6
    How are you hitting push draws with a leftward path
    Posted:
  • lv_2_hacklv_2_hack Texas 2340WRX Points: 113Members Posts: 2,340
    Joined:  #7

    lv_2_hack wrote:


    Typically a really good fade pattern.




    I was hitting some pretty powerful push draws with ease, almost automatic . I think it all stems from your original tip to me of the karate chop move.




    Awesome mate. The karate chop move (iteach taught it to me) is great for people who are overly connected. Helps get lead arm off the chest coming down. For you, your backswing might have gotten a bit too deep, so the shift out helped get you back on plane.



    Overall you are right, most of the WRX crowd hates seeing any downswing that's steeper than the backswing.
    Posted:
    Lots of Callaway Stuff
  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
    Joined:  ...

    Advertisement
  • lv_2_hacklv_2_hack Texas 2340WRX Points: 113Members Posts: 2,340
    Joined:  #8




    Manassero is a good example of what I'm talking about. He gets his arms a bit deep in the backswing (pause when left arm is parallel to ground and then again at same spot in downswing) and thus has to kick out on the downswing.



    With Lee, I'd argue that was pretty much inline. Hands maybe kicked out an inch at most. Camera angle wasn't the best.
    Posted:
    Lots of Callaway Stuff
  • HawkeyeDanHawkeyeDan  894WRX Points: 0Members Posts: 894
    Joined:  #9
    So, if I am following correctly, you are defining "over the top" as simply coming in steeper than where you started, correct? So would Kuchar be another example of this, or is he simply going underplane in the backswing then back on plane at impact?
    Posted:
  • Titleist1455Titleist1455  1572WRX Points: 1Members Posts: 1,572
    Joined:  #10
    HawkeyeDan wrote:


    So, if I am following correctly, you are defining "over the top" as simply coming in steeper than where you started, correct? So would Kuchar be another example of this, or is he simply going underplane in the backswing then back on plane at impact?




    Kuchar is more "standard" over the top, IMO.
    Posted:
  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FL 5593WRX Points: 1,130Members Posts: 5,593
    Joined:  #11
    pinhigh27 wrote:


    How are you hitting push draws with a leftward path




    How do you know his path was leftward? You can still come over the top of your BS plane and hit it from the inside, which is what I think he's advocating
    Posted:
    USGA Index: ~1

    WITB:
    Ping G410 LST 9 degree - Tour AD IZ 6x
    Taylormade M2 Tour 15 Fujikura Pro TourSpec 73 
    Kasco K2K 33 - UST Axivcore 65 Tour Green 
    Callaway RazrX Tour 4h - Tour 95 shaft
    Ping i200 5-UW (2 flat) - Nippon Modus 105X
    Taylormade HiToe 54 (bent to 55 & 2 flat)
    Taylormade HiToe 64 (Bent to 62 & 2 flat)
    Palmer AP30R putter (circa 1960s)
    Taylormade TP5X Ball
  • CloranCloran  1047WRX Points: 60Members Posts: 1,047
    Joined:  #12
    pinhigh27 wrote:


    How are you hitting push draws with a leftward path




    Takaway is "inside" and then the club path moves "over" that path in transition... but still attacks the ball from the inside.



    Google: OTT from the inside
    Posted:
  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
    Joined:  ...

    Advertisement
  • Hoot151Hoot151  797WRX Points: 0Members Posts: 797
    Joined:  #13
    pinhigh27 wrote:


    How are you hitting push draws with a leftward path




    Did his post say anything about a leftward path
    Posted:
  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FL 5593WRX Points: 1,130Members Posts: 5,593
    Joined:  #14
    Cloran wrote:

    pinhigh27 wrote:


    How are you hitting push draws with a leftward path




    Takaway is "inside" and then the club path moves "over" that path in transition... but still attacks the ball from the inside.



    Google: OTT from the inside




    Exactly, and with many of the really good ones who swing this way the shaft actually shallows in transition...even though the overall path is OTT
    Posted:
    USGA Index: ~1

    WITB:
    Ping G410 LST 9 degree - Tour AD IZ 6x
    Taylormade M2 Tour 15 Fujikura Pro TourSpec 73 
    Kasco K2K 33 - UST Axivcore 65 Tour Green 
    Callaway RazrX Tour 4h - Tour 95 shaft
    Ping i200 5-UW (2 flat) - Nippon Modus 105X
    Taylormade HiToe 54 (bent to 55 & 2 flat)
    Taylormade HiToe 64 (Bent to 62 & 2 flat)
    Palmer AP30R putter (circa 1960s)
    Taylormade TP5X Ball
  • Ghost of SneadGhost of Snead  2828WRX Points: 246Members Posts: 2,828
    Joined:  #15
    IMO, Snead is the poster boy for this move - hands over the top.
    Posted:
    Taylormade 2016 M2 10.5* - Blue Tensei CK 70X
    Taylormade SLDR Mini 14* - Fujikura Motore Speeder 77X
    Callaway Apex UT 18° - Project X 6.5
    Callaway Tour Authentic X-Prototype 3-PW - Project X 6.5
    Vokey SM7 Raw 52.08F
    Vokey V-Grind 58.1
    Taylor Made Spider Mini
  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FL 5593WRX Points: 1,130Members Posts: 5,593
    Joined:  #16
    lefty57 wrote:


    IMO, Snead is the poster boy for this move - hands over the top.




    Agree
    Posted:
    USGA Index: ~1

    WITB:
    Ping G410 LST 9 degree - Tour AD IZ 6x
    Taylormade M2 Tour 15 Fujikura Pro TourSpec 73 
    Kasco K2K 33 - UST Axivcore 65 Tour Green 
    Callaway RazrX Tour 4h - Tour 95 shaft
    Ping i200 5-UW (2 flat) - Nippon Modus 105X
    Taylormade HiToe 54 (bent to 55 & 2 flat)
    Taylormade HiToe 64 (Bent to 62 & 2 flat)
    Palmer AP30R putter (circa 1960s)
    Taylormade TP5X Ball
  • pinhigh27pinhigh27  9794WRX Points: 308Members Posts: 9,794
    Joined:  #17
    I'm not saying a leftward path is bad, just I've never seen someone using OTT and push draw in same sentence.
    Posted:
  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
    Joined:  ...

    Advertisement
  • xxjonesyxxxxjonesyxx  1073WRX Points: 0Members Posts: 1,073
    Joined:  #18
    There something about that Robert Rock iron swing DTL that's very pleasing on the eye. couldn't tell you technically what it is mind...



    Neil
    Posted:
    Mizuno Mp630
    Xhot 3 deep 14.5
    SLDR 17 deg hybrid
    Ping g15 20 deg hybrid
    Callaway XR pro 5 - pw
    callaway X forged 48
    Callway X tour 52 & 58
    Nike Method Mod 90
  • JonnybagadonutsJonnybagadonuts  1089WRX Points: 35Members Posts: 1,089
    Joined:  #19
    dpb5031 wrote:

    pinhigh27 wrote:


    How are you hitting push draws with a leftward path




    How do you know his path was leftward? You can still come over the top of your BS plane and hit it from the inside, which is what I think he's advocating




    Precisely , I am surprised so many people are familiar with what I am talking about .





    It's a great way to move the club and feels very natural once you get the motion down .
    Posted:
  • PJ72PJ72  1933WRX Points: 98Members Posts: 1,933
    Joined:  edited Feb 12, 2015 #20
    I think the term OTT in this instance refers to the right shoulder coming 'over the top'. Obviously, OTT is a term usually referring to the hands coming over the top.
    Posted:
  • Hot Rod 71Hot Rod 71 #TheWRX  8932WRX Points: 293ClubWRX, BST Volunteer Mods Posts: 8,932
    Joined:  edited Feb 12, 2015 #21
    The pro at my club once told me "if you take the club back on plane, then you can swing over the top". It took me a while to fully understand this.



    When I started I was a jerk it back inside and swing OTT. I eventually learned to take the club back on a better plane (a little outside) and soon began to struggle with coming too far from the inside, trying the drop the club in the slot and shallow out.



    Now I take it back on the same plane but feel as though I'm swinging OTT (not drastically). Ball striking is much more consistent.
    Posted:
    PING G400 LST 10* - Graphite Design Tour AD TP 6X
    Callaway Epic 15* - Diamana S+ 70X
    Callaway Apex Hybrid 20* - Diamana S+ 80X
    PXG 0311T 4-P - DGTI AMT S400
    Cleveland RTX4 50, 54, 58 - DGTI S400
    Yes! Tracy Tour
    Snell Black
  • TB07TB07  6110WRX Points: 147Members Posts: 6,110
    Joined:  #22
    PJ72 wrote:


    I think the term OTT in this instance refers to the right shoulder coming 'over the top'. Obviously, OTT is a term usually referring to the hands coming over the top.




    Hands start working out from the top in most good swings.
    Posted:
  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
    Joined:  ...

    Advertisement
  • Hot Rod 71Hot Rod 71 #TheWRX  8932WRX Points: 293ClubWRX, BST Volunteer Mods Posts: 8,932
    Joined:  #23
    Calling Monte!! Come in, Monte!! image/help.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':help:' />
    Posted:
    PING G400 LST 10* - Graphite Design Tour AD TP 6X
    Callaway Epic 15* - Diamana S+ 70X
    Callaway Apex Hybrid 20* - Diamana S+ 80X
    PXG 0311T 4-P - DGTI AMT S400
    Cleveland RTX4 50, 54, 58 - DGTI S400
    Yes! Tracy Tour
    Snell Black
  • FatReedFatReed FatReed  601WRX Points: 1Unregistered Posts: 601
    Joined:  edited Feb 12, 2015 #24


    So many of us are under the impression that swinging "over the top" is the worst thing that you can do. Also we get caught up in trying to shallow the swing

    by dropping the club behind us or trying to turn the left arm clockwise while in transition ( Hogan,) .



    i dont know if you have ever tried turning your arms clockwise in transition but its extremely difficult motion and requires a tremendous amount of timing.



    We are looking at the transition of the great players and misinterpreting what is going on . What actually is happening is that they are swinging " OVER THE TOP " of the initial plane . Which in turn

    is squaring the club face. I like to call it swinging over the top from the inside. There is no conscious twisting or chain pulling or side arm throwing. Its simply getting to a backswing position where the club is in sync with the body and on a neutral plane to slightly underneath . From there its simply rotating what feels like over the top. The pieces of the puzzle fall in place the club drops behind the player slighty which shallows out the swing path and the shoulders have more then enough room to rotate freely .



    A perfect example is Robert Rock.







    https://www.youtube....h?v=FopnOW_-UCw




    Johnny, perhaps you could explain a little bit more about what you are seeing. . . nothing about Rock's swing looks OTT to me.



    You do indicate "what feels" like OTT, and I could never argue anyone's feels, however, I do not see OTT with Rock.



    I am familiar with McLean's planes and, if memory serves me, Floyd is a good example of someone who goes back under plane and re-routes up and onto a higher plane, if you will. I do not know what he 'feels', but pretty sure that is not what most would consider an OTT move.
    Posted:
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • CloranCloran  1047WRX Points: 60Members Posts: 1,047
    Joined:  #25
    My swing has always been OTT and my miss is a hook. I can hook the ball off the planet with the driver at the moment... what I wouldn't give for a slicers OTT move right now. Lol.



    And I don't shallow the shaft in transition, just can't happen... will never happen, not in my dna.



    What do I do? I setup with my shaft on the turned shoulder plane, take it back inside, lift my hands back up the the TSP, and bring my hands and the club back down the TSP to impact. It looks "cleaner" on video because I have higher hands at setup and impact is on the same plane, but I always swing down the TSP so if I set up with low hands the OTT move is exaggerated.



    It be what it be.
    Posted:
  • PJ72PJ72  1933WRX Points: 98Members Posts: 1,933
    Joined:  #26
    TB07 wrote:

    PJ72 wrote:


    I think the term OTT in this instance refers to the right shoulder coming 'over the top'. Obviously, OTT is a term usually referring to the hands coming over the top.




    Hands start working out from the top in most good swings.




    Yes, they will work 'out', or towards the target line but still on the correct plane, not over the top of it.
    Posted:
  • MonteScheinblumMonteScheinblum Rebellion Golf Southern California 18617WRX Points: 1,095Members Posts: 18,617
    Joined:  #27
    Right shoulder out, around, forward.
    Posted:
  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
    Joined:  ...

    Advertisement
  • Hoot151Hoot151  797WRX Points: 0Members Posts: 797
    Joined:  #28
    pinhigh27 wrote:


    I'm not saying a leftward path is bad, just I've never seen someone using OTT and push draw in same sentence.




    If you will read the other posts, lv_2_hack explains very clearly in post #8 what 'OTT' means in this context and it does not preclude a rightward path.
    Posted:
  • FatReedFatReed FatReed  601WRX Points: 1Unregistered Posts: 601
    Joined:  edited Feb 12, 2015 #29
    PJ72 wrote:

    TB07 wrote:

    PJ72 wrote:


    I think the term OTT in this instance refers to the right shoulder coming 'over the top'. Obviously, OTT is a term usually referring to the hands coming over the top.




    Hands start working out from the top in most good swings.




    Yes, they will work 'out', or towards the target line but still on the correct plane, not over the top of it.




    Agree 100%. The 'hands' (forearms and wrists more specifically) are the problem, not necessarily the shoulder. For example, the hands can drop, as with Rock, and right shoulder moves 'out' and there is no OTT pathology.



    Mikah gets a lot of heat on this forum. However, one of his stock comments is very insightful and applicable here. Namely, keeping the right hand on an arc inside the left during the transition and early downswing. Another way of looking at is the right elbow leads the hand. This relationship is lost if one pronates their right forearm during the transition/early downswing. . . OTT city with the hands, and the shoulder typically comes along for the ride in the prototypic out-to-in swing. Nothing about Rock's swing is out-to-in.
    Posted:
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • iteachgolfiteachgolf  17008WRX Points: 1,137Members Posts: 17,008
    Joined:  #30
    Every swing I make is "OTT". As are most of my students
    Posted:
  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
    Joined:  ...

    Advertisement
  • parallaxparallax  226WRX Points: 0Members Posts: 226
    Joined:  #31
    Can someone define "over the top"?



    I thought it was the club head path in relation to the ball.
    Posted:
6

Leave a Comment

Rich Text Editor. To edit a paragraph's style, hit tab to get to the paragraph menu. From there you will be able to pick one style. Nothing defaults to paragraph. An inline formatting menu will show up when you select text. Hit tab to get into that menu. Some elements, such as rich link embeds, images, loading indicators, and error messages may get inserted into the editor. You may navigate to these using the arrow keys inside of the editor and delete them with the delete or backspace key.