Ben Hogan Wow!

[dap]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1282810724' post='2662620']
[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1282781046' post='2661962']
which partners, during which period ? ...[/quote]

Gardner Dickinson who was very clear about it.

[quote]
what led you to re-interpret the book, and re-orientate the stance line to a more closed one for all clubs ? cheers
[/quote]

My studies. Simple as that. If you want to have a discussion about it with meritoric arguments - go ahead. Everything I believe in is well documented and argumented.

Cheers
[/quote]
Hogan only used this so called diagonal stance from the long irons up.From the six iron down he opened up his stance.This is stated very clear in five lessons.

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1282820039' post='2662675']Hogan only used this so called diagonal stance from the long irons up.From the six iron down he opened up his stance.This is stated very clear in five lessons.
[/quote]

Nah. First, even if he closed his feet line only for longer clubs (as depicted in '5 Lessons') and set open with feet in relation to the target line it does not mean he did not implemented the diagonal stance principles, i.e. feet closed in relation to hips, hips open in relation to shoulders. This would be just less effective allocation of the DS.
Secondly, '5 Lessons' shows more what Hogan felt (there are a few examples of it) than what he really did. I have no reasons not to believe his old friend and playing partner, the more my eyes see the same thing, the more this is a very logical conclusion.

Cheers

[dap]

I will agree the diagram he drew is a bit exaggerated.While he most certainly used a closed stance with the longer clubs,he was probably square with the short irons rather than open like he illustrated.

[JOEGOLFWRX]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1282810724' post='2662620']
Gardner Dickinson who was very clear about it.
[/quote]

thats just one, you said partners

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1282810724' post='2662620']
My studies. Simple as that. If you want to have a discussion about it with [b]meritoric arguments[/b] - go ahead. Everything I believe in is well documented and argumented.
[/quote]

i dont follow you, ...do you mean i'm claiming venturi would give dickinson a spankin so i must be right, ...my big brother would beat up your big brother ...lol.

he told different people different things, some took what they got and ran with it, his theory seeds breed other theories, ...evolution, ..or was it devolution, hehehe.


do you see the inherent predicament with the automation thesis, the more important automation is the more any discrepancies with reality in setup need to be justified and explained by the theory itself, due to automatic chain action. ...thats why i asked about your orientation re: the ball flight (red lines above), which given he didnt move the ball much, is close to his path/horizontal swing plane, at least with the longer stuff.

[dream_stryker]

I voted for Hogan's choice for best swing... Mickey Wright. Too bad there isn't more video on her available. Hogan was a shot maker....he had a stock setup, grip, and swing. But like all PLAYERS he matched different techniques to the shot needed at that particular time. A player I know that a shot maker said he only uses his 'stock' swing 60% of the time during a round. The rest is alterations to influence trajectory and curve or to compensate for the lay of the land.

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1282834457' post='2663031']
I will agree the diagram he drew is a bit exaggerated.While he most certainly used a closed stance with the longer clubs,he was probably square with the short irons rather than open like he illustrated.
[/quote]

Yes, this is exactly what I can see as well.

Cheers


[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1282840327' post='2663269']

thats just one, you said partners
[\quote]

Well, I recall Jackie Burke saying something about "Hogan's fairly closed feet stance" during his interview to Jim McLean as well. But, I did not hear anybody who commented about Hogan's stance better than Dickinson.

BTW, where did you take Ken Venturi's opinion about Mr.Hogan's stance from ? Where could we read the interview with him ?

Cheers

P.S. And "well argumented & documented" sentence referred to my theories, not to say who was 'bigger' - Venturi or Dickinson.

[JOEGOLFWRX]

well jackie beat up venturi here -> [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlj-EoQLxhw#t=5m30s"]vid[/url]
funny vid, worth watching the whole thing,lol,

but seriously cool as jackie is off the course, hall of fame cool, how much did he really know about hogans methods ? compare the swings, i got the impression jackie was mostly talking about himself to mclean, he even said something at the end about how hogan never discussed anything with him except his arms were flying out from his body/no connection, something like that anyway, when they are both going through the slow mo.

the venturi quote is also from jims classic conversations series, totally different interview, guarding some of what he says about/out of respect for hogan while still being friendly. yet still hints at a feeling that all was not always reveled to him.

i think hogan favored ex-army school of hard knocks golfers, re: worthiness for lessons.

[gvogel]

I have theory about Hogan's secret.

Hogan made a big deal about his secret in the 1950's, and purportedly sold it to Life Magazine in about 1956(?). The secret revealed in Life Magazine had Hogan cupping the left wrist so that he could deliver the face to the ball slightly open, which produced very hard fades, Hogan's bread and butter shot.

Others have proposed other "secrets", but the Life Magazine article was Hogan's public explanation of his secret.

My theory is that Hogan thought his secret was a big deal, right up until 1960. In 1960 Hogan played the final two rounds of the US Open at Cherry Hills with one Jack Nicklaus. Now, Jack was playing a very long high fade - the type of shot that Hogan would have greatly admired.

Nicklaus produced his high fade with an upright swing plane, an open stance, and a clubface opened slightly at address. No mid-swing manipulation was necessary. I believe that Hogan, after witnessing Jack's fade, decide that his own secret wasn't quite so big a deal after that day. In other words, "Nevermind."

I believe that after 1960, Hogan realized that his secret was only applicable to him, or others that had a flatter swing plane and tremendous hand action, like Hogan. Fat Jack was achieving the same consistent ball flight without great hand action, but through leverage and simple swing mechanics.

[supercharger]

Best swing of all time due to fluidity, balance, power and control. In terms of the feet being diaganol they have to be this way to take advantage of the hips natural lead in the rotation role. If the right foot is not drawn back as the stance widens, the hips will be way open at address. Secondly, the pressure points or actual working points the foot needs to work off of cannot work properly with parallel feet. The hips will always feel like they get closer to the ground and are forced to move out from under you one way or the other in a parallel stance. For rotational purposes such as in hogans swing the natural bio manner the lower body moves will be greatly influenced and controlled from a right foot drawn back in the longer clubs where the lower body leads more than it does in the shorter clubs that need less speed and rotation of the lower body.

[grahler]

Hogan's stance as shown in five lessons allows one to have one swing for all clubs. Think about how longer clubs need a slightly shallower angle of attack-think about this and you realize his genius.

[jak_bot]

[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1283571749' post='2678522']
Hogan's stance as shown in five lessons allows one to have one swing for all clubs. Think about how longer clubs need a slightly shallower angle of attack-think about this and you realize his genius.
[/quote]


Human trackman.

[tembolo1284]

great to see some of the classic posters in this thread.