Copper insert vs solid copper putters

[PeanutsDaddy]

I've had a handful of stainless and carbon putters over the years, but have never tried my hand at an alternate material (copper, ALBZ, Brass, etc).

 

I'm currently carrying a Machine M2A converter made of 303 stainless and am seriously contemplating adding an M4 Meritage head to the family. I'm leaning toward a 303 stainless head with a copper insert (so the top lines will look similar at address) but have entertained the thought of purchasing a solid copper head.

 

Other than weight (which I assume will be heavier with the solid copper head) and maintenance, will there be a dramatic difference in feel?

 

In reality, I don't know how either will feel as I've never carried an insert or copper putter.

 

Any (and all) insight on this highly subjective topic will be greatly appreciated.

 

Thank you,

 

Mike.

[weaver93]

I have two with inserts and one solid copper Machine putters and odd as it seems to me (and as you stated it is VERY subjective) the insert seems softer, more muted to me than the solid copper. I think it is the nature of an insert that does this. I think any vibrations tend to get dampened when they transfer from one material to another. Mind you my sole basis for this hypothesis is that a one piece fly rod feels better to me on the bite that a segmented one.

My copper Machine is fairly light at about 355g where the insert putter is about 360 or so. I do not think weight will play a role unless you want super light.

One thing that I find true on both is that they are much hotter on the face (again, my opinion) than my stainless or carbon putters. I find this true with AlBz also.

[PeanutsDaddy]

[quote name='weaver93' timestamp='1433548678' post='11697894']
I have two with inserts and one solid copper Machine putters and odd as it seems to me (and as you stated it is VERY subjective) the insert seems softer, more muted to me than the solid copper. I think it is the nature of an insert that does this. I think any vibrations tend to get dampened when they transfer from one material to another. Mind you my sole basis for this hypothesis is that a one piece fly rod feels better to me on the bite that a segmented one.

My copper Machine is fairly light at about 355g where the insert putter is about 360 or so. I do not think weight will play a role unless you want super light.

One thing that I find true on both is that they are much hotter on the face (again, my opinion) than my stainless or carbon putters. I find this true with AlBz also.
[/quote]

Thank you for the insight.

Hot face, softer feel, 350+ grams are all positive attributes.

My current 303 Machine has deep milled VMG grooves. I don't know if you can answer this question, but I'll take a shot. Will the milling pattern dramatically alter the feel of the copper insert/solid copper head?

[weaver93]

Both inserts and the solid copper have the VMG faces that are fairly deep so I really don't have a comparison. I will tell you though; the "softest" feeling Machine I have is my M10 mini with the TMG face.

[rbhan12]

Do it! Milling absolutely alters the feel, copper is no exception.

[PeanutsDaddy]

[quote name='weaver93' timestamp='1433552750' post='11698262']
Both inserts and the solid copper have the VMG faces that are fairly deep so I really don't have a comparison. I will tell you though; the "softest" feeling Machine I have is my M10 mini with the TMG face.
[/quote]

Don't send me down another 'rabbit hole'. You were one of the primary members who sucked me into the Machine brand in the first place.

I've got four flanges and two shafts that can be paired with another head. Looking to stay in a similar family.

The M10 is a classic design that appeals to my eye, but unfortunately I seem to putt better with a mid-mallet or mallet.

[PeanutsDaddy]

[quote name='rbhan12' timestamp='1433552932' post='11698286']
Do it! Milling absolutely alters the feel, copper is no exception.
[/quote]

RB,

So happy you chimed in. I'm not sure what direction I want to take. What's your take on the TMG milling? I know you've owned your fair share of putters.

PS - I'm still blown away by your Machines.

[weaver93]

[quote name='PeanutsDaddy' timestamp='1433553033' post='11698296']
[quote name='weaver93' timestamp='1433552750' post='11698262']
Both inserts and the solid copper have the VMG faces that are fairly deep so I really don't have a comparison. I will tell you though; the "softest" feeling Machine I have is my M10 mini with the TMG face.
[/quote]

Don't send me down another 'rabbit hole'. You were one of the primary members who sucked me into the Machine brand in the first place.

I've got four flanges and two shafts that can be paired with another head. Looking to stay in a similar family.

The M10 is a classic design that appeals to my eye, but unfortunately I seem to putt better with a mid-mallet or mallet.
[/quote]

ME? I wouldn't do that! However, I do think a mini M10 would be a nice addition to your stable!

I don't think the Megalodon will ever leave the bag so I understand the mallet thing.

I just mention the TMG because I think if you do that on copper, insert or not, it will be very soft feeling. On stainless vs stainless the TMG on mine feels softer than the VMG. Dave can alter the feel on the TMG by changing the groves per inch.

I am betting RBs TMG insert is very soft.

[rbhan12]

The insert is made of Mokume Gane, which I believe is copper and steel. The TMG with the insert is very soft when struck in the center, likely due to the copper composition. In comparison to the fly mill, it's a night and day difference in sound. Indoors, the TMG is almost inaudible in comparison to the fly mill stainless steel Damascus.

My understanding is that VMG is supposed to be even softer, which sounds along the lines of what you're looking for.

[weaver93]

I believe Mokume-gane is a soft metal mix of alloys like copper, silver, and alloys made of a combination of those listed along with gold. I think back in the day it also included metallic arsenic. Probably not a good idea on a mill!

I think the reason the TMG feels softer to me is with the groves per inch low you have so much less material contacting the ball. Like we said at first, it is very subjective, but either pattern on copper will be soft.

One thing I will say is it is hard to deny that Mokume-gage is a bada** looking insert!

[PeanutsDaddy]

[quote name='weaver93' timestamp='1433592373' post='11699764']
[quote name='PeanutsDaddy' timestamp='1433553033' post='11698296']
[quote name='weaver93' timestamp='1433552750' post='11698262']
Both inserts and the solid copper have the VMG faces that are fairly deep so I really don't have a comparison. I will tell you though; the "softest" feeling Machine I have is my M10 mini with the TMG face.
[/quote]

Don't send me down another 'rabbit hole'. You were one of the primary members who sucked me into the Machine brand in the first place.

I've got four flanges and two shafts that can be paired with another head. Looking to stay in a similar family.

The M10 is a classic design that appeals to my eye, but unfortunately I seem to putt better with a mid-mallet or mallet.
[/quote]

ME? I wouldn't do that! However, I do think a mini M10 would be a nice addition to your stable!

I don't think the Megalodon will ever leave the bag so I understand the mallet thing.

I just mention the TMG because I think if you do that on copper, insert or not, it will be very soft feeling. On stainless vs stainless the TMG on mine feels softer than the VMG. Dave can alter the feel on the TMG by changing the groves per inch.

I am betting RBs TMG insert is very soft.
[/quote]

My current set-up includes the Megalodon flange (an homage to my 5 year old who loves the prehistoric shark), but I could putt successfully with any of the flanges I own. The value of being able to achieve the same head weight with weights and Dave's customization.

I was originally going to look at another VMG milling pattern (similar to your avatar) but I think I'll follow RB's lead and investigate the TMG milling. Something a bit different.

I too really like the appearance of the Mokume Gane inserts. I wonder if the insert will patina or maintain its appearance?

[rbhan12]

Can't comment on whether the insert will "patina" or not, as mine is always oiled, including the inside of the head cover. I don't want to see a single speck of rust on my putter(s)!