Pete Dye courses?

[burnsniper]

I think that Pete Dye's best courses are ones that he designed for a particular tournament. Three of my favorite courses are Pete Dye tracks and were destined for specific events:

TPC Sawgrass
Kiawah Ocean Course
Bulle Rock

The Pete Dye course redesigns that I have played seem tricked up, are not always fair, and have some weaknesses caused by their original layouts:

VT River Course
Keswick Full Cry

The only other Pete Dye Course that I have played - Kingsmill River - is a good but not spectacular course.

[T-MAC]

Dye redid one of the courses in Sea Pines (Hilton Head SC) that used to be called the Marsh and was renamed Heron Point.
When Dye was finished, the course was actually easier than it was before.
That may be a first for Pete Dye!

[ode1]

I played the Irish course for years and hated it and finally got over all the visual intimidation and let er rip. Plenty of room off the tee and big greens, absolutely no reason why you cant play well tee to green. Sure if you go waywerd you are f'ed; dont know how to read greens, double f'ed! ...but thats the way it should be IMO. I have since played both courses at blackwolf and both at whistling and I'd much rather play a Dye course vs. a sucky target golf course.

He's in your head before you even hit your first tee ball!

[dukeman]

I like courses where bogey is easy, par is challenging, and birdies are accomplishments.

Most, not all, Dye courses are set up where you make a par or a 9.

[Tim_Gavrich]

Generally, more open-minded golfers tend to like Pete Dye, while the ones who hate his courses tend to have pretty rigid ideas about what a golf hole/course should be/look like. I haven't played his whole portfolio by any means, but the Dye courses I've played tend to be much more intimidating than purely difficult. As others have mentioned, there are a lot of holes where, off the tee, the best path is guarded by something nasty-looking - a pot bunker, water, mounds. Then, off to the other side, there's some openness but probably some other stuff to distract you from the proper line - his "volcano" bunkers on top of mounds are an example of that. You can pretty much always play safely and plod your way down a hole and make a relatively easy bogey. But to make a par or birdie, you sometimes have to take on a little risk or just focus a little more than you're used to.

Lots of golf courses are pretty mundane because the ideal shot is obvious for 18 holes in a row. Pete Dye is great at throwing golfers off-balance. Some golfers don't like having to think before executing. But once that psychological factor is understood, his courses really aren't much tougher than others'. You just have to know when you can be aggressive and when not to.

[Hondabuff]

This article I found about Mystic Rock just about sums it up.

Pete Dye looks out of place tramping through the lobby of the Chateau Lafayette hotel, pants dirty, shoes stained with mud, wearing a golf cap that looks as if it has been run over by one of the Hummers sitting outside the entrance. To be sure, he does not look like the typical guest who frequents the posh Nemacolin Woodlands Resort & Spa in Farmington, Pa., the mountain playland owned by lumber billionaire Joe Hardy. And yet, for most of the past three years, Dye has made more return visits to the resort than Robin Leach.
Dye is the architect of the golf course that serves as the centerpiece of the resort, Mystic Rock, a layout built on top of a stone mountain ... with the turf consistency to prove it. It has been 10 years since Dye finished the course for Hardy, more than a decade since he was given marching orders to build the toughest course in the world. But from the moment Hardy was able to land a PGA Tour event at his resort, Dye has not been able to stay away.
He keeps coming back to Mystic Rock because, well, Hardy won't let him stay away. In the three years Mystic Rock has played host to the 84 Lumber Classic, Dye has been summoned to fix some of the problems at his creation. And, as is always the case with Hardy, money was no object.
Good thing, too.
Over the years, Dye has had to put so much work into Mystic Rock that the capital investment is starting to catch up with the original price of the layout. He has had to redo fairways, rebuild greens and add new tees. He has installed grassy mounds, added pot bunkers and expanded lakes.
At a resort where appearance is everything, Mystic Rock has been nipped, tucked and stretched more times than Elizabeth Taylor.
"It's like an annuity," Dye said.
For him.
And his ATM is Hardy, who keeps trying to get his course right, even though it doesn't always happen.
Hardy put a suggestion box in the locker room at Mystic Rock, inviting players to voice their complaints about the layout. They have, and, to his credit, Hardy has listened.
"We'll keep doing it until we get it right," Hardy said.
Right down to the waterfall and lion cage.
[b]Great change[/b]
Dye remembers the first time he came to the Nemacolin Woodlands resort to look at the property and evaluate the site where Hardy wanted to build a second course to go with the Links.
But Hardy, owner of 84 Lumber Co., the largest privately owned building materials supplier in the country, didn't want just any golf course. He told Dye, one of golf's leading architects, he wanted the hardest course in the world.
And, he told Dye, he wanted a course that would one day be host a PGA Tour event.
"I told Joe he was crazy," Dye said.
A decade later, Dye is standing on one of the tees at Mystic Rock, looking over the landscape he has molded and created as though it were Play-Do. He is wondering who is crazy now.
"We did a lot of cleaning up on the golf course," Dye said. "We put a lot of sand on the fairways to get them firm. It needed it."
When the 84 Lumber Classic gets under way tomorrow, the course Dye opened in 1995 and the one that will test Vijay Singh and Phil Mickelson, two of the top three players in the world, are as different as Bing Crosby and Sydney Crosby.
The course that cost nearly $20 million to build the first time has probably had another $12 million to $15 million invested in a makeover. And nobody is really sure what to make of the finished product. Mystic Rock is a lot like its owner -- bold, brash, unpredictable.
Two years ago, Hardy had a rock waterfall built near the fifth green for $600,000. Last year, he had a 12-foot fence constructed around the formation to house lions -- a lion is the logo for his adopted PGA Tour son, John Daly -- during the tournament.
This year, fans will get an added attraction at the site -- a statue of Daly in his classic corkscrew windup.
"Pretty soon we'll have one of Vijay," Daly said, referring to Vijay Singh, the No. 2 player in the world who is also paid by Hardy to endorse the 84 Lumber Co.
[b]Too tough[/b]
When it was done being stretched, Mystic Rock measured a Bunyanesque 7,516 yards, a course tailored to the player whose name adorns the resort's golf learning center -- Daly.
It features some holes that are too darn long even for the world's best players. Other holes have been rebuilt so drastically that Dye's new features won't even be implemented.
For example, the par-4 ninth, already one of the most difficult holes on the course, was lengthened to 484 yards with the addition of a new back tee. On top of that, a small forest of 65 trees was added on the right side of the fairway and a lake with rock wall was constructed on the left, pinching the landing area to a U.S. Open-like 27 yards.
When he played a nine-hole exhibition in June that began on No. 10, Singh walked back to the ninth tee merely to get a look at the new design.
"That will definitely be the hardest hole on the course," Singh said. "I don't know if they will use that back tee."
The same is true at No. 12, a 193-yard par 3 that was given a new green and a new look. Dye expanded the lake in front of the green to make it more like a peninsula hole. Then, he drastically reduced the size of the putting surface (4,000 square feet), despite having plenty of greenside property with which to work. When he was done, the hole measured 211 yards. But, because the green is so small, it is unlikely the tour will use the back tee because players will have a difficult time holding a mid- to long-iron on such a tiny target -- especially with the firmness of Mystic Rock's greens, which were rebuilt two years ago.
"I don't take the approach to fire at pins, not with these concrete greens," said Stewart Cink, one of two U.S. Ryder Cup players who played last year at Mystic Rock. "You can't. You will just end up shooting way over par. You have to be really strategic here."
At No. 17, a picturesque par 3 where a giant lake runs the entire left side, Dye built a new tee that actually shortens the hole but brings the water more into play. But even that tee -- 158 yards -- is only an 8- or 9-iron for the tour players, so it is unlikely that one will be used much, if at all, either.
"It's the 17th hole of a tournament," Singh said. "Why make it easier?"
[b]Stunning overall[/b]
In the past two years, nearly a dozen new tees have been built, more than 1,500 trees have been removed (to create more gallery space) and all the bunkers have been replaced with PGA Tour Spec White Sand, making it nearly impossible to get a bad lie, even in one of Dye's infamous pot bunkers.
In an attempt to improve the turf quality, Dye aerated the fairways more than 40 times in one year.
None of the changes, though, compare to the stunning overhaul of No. 18, a hole badly in need of a makeover. It was rebuilt before last year's tournament, and gave Mystic Rock the proper -- and dramatic -- setting for a finishing hole.
The old hole played 365 yards and was bland, playing slightly uphill and tilting to the left. The new one plays uphill and doglegs to the right, around a mounded bunker complex that is 312 yards to carry from the back tee.
A new amphitheater-style greens complex is framed by the majestic Falling Rock, a $66 million lodge/clubhouse that took less than a year to build.
"The changes they made are all really good," said J.L. Lewis, who won the tournament in 2003. "The harder holes are even harder. I thought it was two to three shots harder [last year]. The fairways and greens are firmer and you got some Pete Dye pot bunkers out there to get lost in."
Better than a lion cage.

[CDM]

I like Pete Dye courses. Sure for the most part are a target course, but I will say I hate Nicklaus courses far more then Pete Dye courses.

Pete will for the most part out line what you have to do while your playing...might not be what you want to do...but it what he intended you to do if you want to score well. A lot hate it honestly as everyone is a BOMB it off the tee player now and Dye courses don't play like that for the most part. Yes Dye gives you room off the tee but you have to hit it right or your in trouble. Play it as intended or Risk vs Reward.... so you have more options to me, or challenges that is.

Nicklaus gives good landing areas, but your approach shot kills half the time. The greens are all set up that if you miss in the wrong spot you will roll off 20-40 yards.... and depending on conditions you could be chipping a few times LOL. Dye does the same but you only roll 5 yards off and allows you to try and get up and down.

I have always said it, you can tell Nicklaus course by pace of play. They typically play longer (duration that is) as average golfers don't hit it 2 feet of the pin perfect every time....I mean WRX's do of course

[i]EDIT:[/i]
[i]to the post above...sure they removed trees, but I think at this year's PGA, Kholer pointed that Pete plants more trees then the EVER removes to frame the holes and add challenges. We have all played dunes course with no wind... a lot easier then with a heavy wind. Adding trees, mature ones of course, adds to the tee ball control. Shaping shots, just not bombing it over the corner[/i].

[az2au]

[quote name='Tim Gavrich' timestamp='1442325312' post='12316172']Generally, more open-minded golfers tend to like Pete Dye, while the ones who hate his courses tend to have pretty rigid ideas about what a golf hole/course should be/look like. I haven't played his whole portfolio by any means, but the Dye courses I've played tend to be much more intimidating than purely difficult. As others have mentioned, there are a lot of holes where, off the tee, the best path is guarded by something nasty-looking - a pot bunker, water, mounds. Then, off to the other side, there's some openness but probably some other stuff to distract you from the proper line - his "volcano" bunkers on top of mounds are an example of that. You can pretty much always play safely and plod your way down a hole and make a relatively easy bogey. But to make a par or birdie, you sometimes have to take on a little risk or just focus a little more than you're used to.

Lots of golf courses are pretty mundane because the ideal shot is obvious for 18 holes in a row. Pete Dye is great at throwing golfers off-balance. Some golfers don't like having to think before executing. But once that psychological factor is understood, his courses really aren't much tougher than others'. You just have to know when you can be aggressive and when not to.[/quote]

I don't understand this at all. I don't want to get into a measuring contest but I have played more than 600 different courses in 28 countries around the world. If there is one thing I am certain about it is that I don't have a rigid ideas about course design or how the game should be enjoyed. Everything that people have said about Dye courses favors my style of play and I have put up plenty of low numbers on his courses. Even with all of that I can tell you I'd likely quit golf if all I could play was Dye courses for the rest of my life (which would be sad as it clearly takes up a lot of my spare time ). He seems determined to remove fun from golf. I get that other people like him, heck even love him but the reasons why don't seem to be correct because they sound like the perfect courses to me when I hear you guys describe them.

BTW, courses that dictate your shots are horrible. I don't play too many of those but when I do they rank lower than Dye courses. Agree with you on that one.

[melo]

[quote name='az2au' timestamp='1442349091' post='12318172']
[quote name='Tim Gavrich' timestamp='1442325312' post='12316172']Generally, more open-minded golfers tend to like Pete Dye, while the ones who hate his courses tend to have pretty rigid ideas about what a golf hole/course should be/look like. I haven't played his whole portfolio by any means, but the Dye courses I've played tend to be much more intimidating than purely difficult. As others have mentioned, there are a lot of holes where, off the tee, the best path is guarded by something nasty-looking - a pot bunker, water, mounds. Then, off to the other side, there's some openness but probably some other stuff to distract you from the proper line - his "volcano" bunkers on top of mounds are an example of that. You can pretty much always play safely and plod your way down a hole and make a relatively easy bogey. But to make a par or birdie, you sometimes have to take on a little risk or just focus a little more than you're used to.

Lots of golf courses are pretty mundane because the ideal shot is obvious for 18 holes in a row. Pete Dye is great at throwing golfers off-balance. Some golfers don't like having to think before executing. But once that psychological factor is understood, his courses really aren't much tougher than others'. You just have to know when you can be aggressive and when not to.[/quote]

I don't understand this at all. I don't want to get into a measuring contest but I have played more than 600 different courses in 28 countries around the world. If there is one thing I am certain about it is that I don't have a rigid ideas about course design or how the game should be enjoyed. Everything that people have said about Dye courses favors my style of play and I have put up plenty of low numbers on his courses. Even with all of that I can tell you I'd likely quit golf if all I could play was Dye courses for the rest of my life (which would be sad as it clearly takes up a lot of my spare time ). He seems determined to remove fun from golf. I get that other people like him, heck even love him but the reasons why don't seem to be correct because they sound like the perfect courses to me when I hear you guys describe them.

BTW, courses that dictate your shots are horrible. I don't play too many of those but when I do they rank lower than Dye courses. Agree with you on that one.
[/quote]

I agree. A great golf experience is a course that allows you the ability to play different shots and score well as long as you execute. Courses that almost force you to be a 290+ hitter, or that require you to take awkward lines off the tee aren't really enjoyable golf courses. If my typical shot is a cut, but I play that cut really, really well and consistently, I wouldn't want to play at a course where 50% of the holes are going to penalize me for hitting a perfect cut...95% of golfers can't truly control their golf ball, so while Kiawah or Mystic Rock are superb for tour pros who can hit basically any shot at any time, the rest of us who can't pull off the low running 2 iron at will, or the super high driver fade would prefer courses that allow us to play our game and post a good score as long as we execute the shots well. For example, at Mystic Rock even if you play from the gold tees (senior men), number 3 is 175 yards of carry for a par 3, and 18 plays almost 420 yards uphill iirc. The odds of someone who correctly chose that tee box being able to execute the shots necessary to make even a bogey on those holes is slim to none.

[Barracuda]

I played Kiawah three times, first round, made 5 birdies, made 75.

Did not find it a hard as I thought it would be.

Tpc sawgrass, I shot under 80 first time out. (79 with a double on 18)

I am not long (ball speed is 150/55), carry distance is around 250. Weakest part of my game is the 40/80 yds shot.

I consider I have great course management, and hit it where I want most of the time. I don't hit the shots I can't hit, I don't go for pins I can't go for. I usually do very well on dye courses.

[Argonne69]

[quote name='Barracuda' timestamp='1442410940' post='12321506']
I played Kiawah three times, first round, made 5 birdies, made 75.

Did not find it a hard as I thought it would be.

Tpc sawgrass, I shot under 80 first time out. (79 with a double on 18)

I am not long (ball speed is 150/55), carry distance is around 250. Weakest part of my game is the 40/80 yds shot.

I consider I have great course management, and hit it where I want most of the time. I don't hit the shots I can't hit, I don't go for pins I can't go for. I usually do very well on dye courses.
[/quote]

How were the winds? I shot great rounds at Kiawah and Whistling Straits, but the winds were down. The courses are designed for windy conditions to allow some level of playability.

[Barracuda]

Very windy the first day. According to my caddy above average.

Head wind on the first hole, which I guess it's the usual for the course.