Categorizing the PGA courses - Need help

[golfnhack]

Hey guys, would like to ask for your help. I am working on a little side project, and I need to categorize the PGA courses into "like" courses, i.e. group similar courses. I was wondering if the knowledgeable here on the site could help me? Below is the list, as well as a number associated. My goal is to generate a list that shows e.g. Siverado CC (#1) = #15 (Torrey South), #25 (TPC San Anotonia) etc....

 

That was just an example. I am sure they are probably not "like"

 

Any case.... any help would be greatly appreciated. I don't expect you to complete the full list, but if you know that a course is "like" another, if you could please comment.

 

Thanks

 

 

[chas521]

Bethpage Black - Farmingdale, NY

[Stensons3Wood]

Riviera / Colonial

CC of Jackson / Sedgefield



Four Seasons / TPC of Louisiana

[exgolfpro]

Not an easy assignment because of different perspectives as to what a golf courses identity is. Here are a few, I would lump together.

Sea Island/Waialae CC/Riviera/Innisbrook/Harbour Town/Colonial

Augusta/Bay Hill/Muirfield Village/Glen Abbey/Firestone/East Lake

Kapalua/Pebble Beach/Spyglass/Monterey/TPC Sawgrass/Whistling Straits/TPC Boston

[patk35]

Have you considered looking at it by the numbers? Take for example number of bunkers, holes with water in play, yardage, forced carry yardage, etc. An easier way at least for initial groupings would be to sort the courses in to basic types ie canyon, parkland, sandbelt, etc. Another factor I'd look at is architects, and their various influences, there's not going to be a whole lot of architects and or firms that work at PGA tour caliber. Individual opinions are not going to point in the direction of a meaningful conclusion without a curated sample representing a certain population (all golfers, golfwrx users, etc.). I'd be happy to help out any further as it sounds like an interesting project.

[knock it close]

I'd say the 3 most similar are ANGC, Houston, Muirfield. Course setup at ANGC and Houston generally seems fairly similar.

[golfnhack]

[quote name='exgolfpro' timestamp='1443554669' post='12385556']
Not an easy assignment because of different perspectives as to what a golf courses identity is. Here are a few, I would lump together.

Sea Island/Waialae CC/Riviera/Innisbrook/Harbour Town/Colonial

Augusta/Bay Hill/Muirfield Village/Glen Abbey/Firestone/East Lake

Kapalua/Pebble Beach/Spyglass/Monterey/TPC Sawgrass/Whistling Straits/TPC Boston
[/quote]

ExgolfPro,


Those are some eclectic groupings. I was wondering if you could put some perspective on the decision making process. Eg. Sawgrass with Pebble?


Thanks for the replies btw guys.... keep them coming.

In the near term, I am specifically interested to see what courses you would lump with East Lake (since I can run my analysis using last week's data).... as well as Silverado CC, so I can run my analysis software for the next event.

Thanks.

[melo]

I think Aronimink, sedgefield, and east lake would go together. Same designer, about 4 holes where water comes into play on each course, similar length with a rating of about 75 for each. Right around 7200 yards each. Very quick greens with modest contour.

[golfnhack]

[quote name='melo' timestamp='1443580976' post='12388156']
I think Aronimink, sedgefield, and east lake would go together. Same designer, about 4 holes where water comes into play on each course, similar length with a rating of about 75 for each. Right around 7200 yards each. Very quick greens with modest contour.
[/quote]

Thanks Melo for the input.

[melo]

[quote name='golfnhack' timestamp='1443615441' post='12389340']
[quote name='melo' timestamp='1443580976' post='12388156']
I think Aronimink, sedgefield, and east lake would go together. Same designer, about 4 holes where water comes into play on each course, similar length with a rating of about 75 for each. Right around 7200 yards each. Very quick greens with modest contour.
[/quote]

Thanks Melo for the input.
[/quote]

No problem...while this year was obviously quite different, past events have yielded similar scores in relation to par as well, especially at Aronimink and EL. Sedgefield always has lower scores than most tour stops.

As far as Augusta goes, I don't think it is anything like Bay Hill at all. It is most similar to Spyglass, Congressional Blue and Muirfield.

Many of the Florida courses would be lumped together.

[golfnhack]

PS: Anyone know if there are any other PGA Tour Courses "like" Silverado CC?

[melo]

[color=#282828][size=4]" Miller compares the North's new look to a former nursery in Georgia: "It looks like Augusta National. It has the deep-green color, the white sand is a knockout, and you can't get better oak trees than what we have at Silverado." - that's a quote from the guy who did the redesign. [/size][/color]

[golfnhack]

[quote name='melo' timestamp='1443619916' post='12389764']
[color=#282828][size=4]" Miller compares the North's new look to a former nursery in Georgia: "It looks like Augusta National. It has the deep-green color, the white sand is a knockout, and you can't get better oak trees than what we have at Silverado." - that's a quote from the guy who did the redesign. [/size][/color]
[/quote]

Imagine that.... a FIGJAM quote from Johnny Miller.. who would have thunk

[melo]

LOL.

[exgolfpro]

[quote name='golfnhack' timestamp='1443570298' post='12387062']
[quote name='exgolfpro' timestamp='1443554669' post='12385556']
Not an easy assignment because of different perspectives as to what a golf courses identity is. Here are a few, I would lump together.

Sea Island/Waialae CC/Riviera/Innisbrook/Harbour Town/Colonial

Augusta/Bay Hill/Muirfield Village/Glen Abbey/Firestone/East Lake

Kapalua/Pebble Beach/Spyglass/Monterey/TPC Sawgrass/Whistling Straits/TPC Boston
[/quote]

ExgolfPro,


Those are some eclectic groupings. I was wondering if you could put some perspective on the decision making process. Eg. Sawgrass with Pebble?



[/quote]

My thoughts on that group of course are....bigger than life kind of courses where nature is the centerpiece. Maybe not quite as 'polished' as courses like Augusta, Bay Hill and the courses in the California desert like PGA West.

[golfnhack]

[quote name='exgolfpro' timestamp='1443624963' post='12390242']
[quote name='golfnhack' timestamp='1443570298' post='12387062']
[quote name='exgolfpro' timestamp='1443554669' post='12385556']
Not an easy assignment because of different perspectives as to what a golf courses identity is. Here are a few, I would lump together.

Sea Island/Waialae CC/Riviera/Innisbrook/Harbour Town/Colonial

Augusta/Bay Hill/Muirfield Village/Glen Abbey/Firestone/East Lake

Kapalua/Pebble Beach/Spyglass/Monterey/TPC Sawgrass/Whistling Straits/TPC Boston
[/quote]

ExgolfPro,


Those are some eclectic groupings. I was wondering if you could put some perspective on the decision making process. Eg. Sawgrass with Pebble?



[/quote]

My thoughts on that group of course are....bigger than life kind of courses where nature is the centerpiece. Maybe not quite as 'polished' as courses like Augusta, Bay Hill and the courses in the California desert like PGA West.
[/quote]


Thanks Ex,

I am trying to get the course grouped more by likeness in terms of how they play, rather than they look though.

[golfnhack]

OK... here is the list so far



Plantation Course at Kapalua
Waialae CC
PGA West (Palmer Course)
PGA West (Nicklaus Course)
La Quinta CC
Torrey Pines (South Course)
Torrey Pines (North Course)
TPC Scottsdale
Pebble Beach Golf Links Monterey Peninsula CC, Spyglass Hill GC
Monterey Peninsula CC Pebble Beach Golf Links, Spyglass Hill GC
Spyglass Hill GC Pebble Beach Golf Links, Monterey Peninsula CC
Riviera CC Colonial CC, Harbour Town Golf Links
PGA National Champion Course
Trump Intrntl GC - Puerto Rico
TPC Blue Monster at Doral
Innisbrook Resort - Copperhead
Bay Hill Club & Lodge
Redstone GC Tournament Course
TPC San Antonio
Augusta National GC Muirfield Village GC, Glen Abbey GC, East Lake GC, Firestone CC (South Course)
Harbour Town Golf Links Colonial CC, Riviera CC
TPC Louisiana TPC Four Seasons Resort
Quail Hollow Club
TPC Sawgrass
TPC Four Seasons Resort TPC Louisiana
Colonial CC Harbour Town Golf Links, Riviera CC
Muirfield Village GC Glen Abbey GC, East Lake GC, Firestone CC (South Course), Augusta National GC
TPC Southwind
Merion GC
TPC River Highlands
Congressional Country Club
The Old White TPC
TPC Deere Run
Annandale GC
Muirfield
Glen Abbey GC Muirfield Village GC, East Lake GC, Firestone CC (South Course), Augusta National GC
Firestone CC (South Course) Muirfield Village GC, Glen Abbey GC, East Lake GC, Augusta National GC
Oak Hill CC
Sedgefield Country Club East Lake GC
Liberty National Golf Club
TPC Boston
Conway Farms Golf Club
East Lake GC Muirfield Village GC, Glen Abbey GC, Firestone CC (South Course), Augusta National GC, Sedgefield Country Club
Silverado CC (North)
Sea Island Resort (Seaside)
CC of Jackson
Sheshan International GC
El Camaleon GC
Chambers Bay GC
RTJ Trail (Grand National)
Robert Trent Jones GC
Whistling Straits
Plainfield CC
Conway Farms GC

[b.helts]

I absolutely agree with exgolfpro that Waialae and Riviera play similar.

[b.helts]

I also think the Humana courses can be put together with TPC Scottsdale, though I have played TPC Scottsdale in many years.

[golfnhack]

[quote name='b.helts' timestamp='1443635373' post='12391234']
I absolutely agree with exgolfpro that Waialae and Riviera play similar.
[/quote]

K will add it to the list. Thanks

[golfnhack]

b.helts..... Do you think one lumps Waialae with Riviera as well as Colonial and Harbour Town? Or just Waialae and Riviera? Or does Harbour Town and Colonial not belong with Riviera?

[melo]

Colonial and Harbour town are known for having some of the smallest greens anywhere. Not sure how waialae compares, though Riviera's greens are more medium sized.

[b.helts]

I've never played Harbour Town or Colonial, so I'm not sure.

[Stensons3Wood]

I put CCC and Riviera together bc though the greens at CCC may be slightly smaller on average they were both built in the same era and they both use design elements other than sheer length ( trees, doglegs , tight fairways , huge bunkers) to make them very difficult.

Harbor town has some of that but, it just feels different

[melo]

[quote name='NorthTexas' timestamp='1443668071' post='12393700']
I put CCC and Riviera together bc though the greens at CCC may be slightly smaller on average they were both built in the same era and they both use design elements other than sheer length ( trees, doglegs , tight fairways , huge bunkers) to make them very difficult.

Harbor town has some of that but, it just feels different
[/quote]

Though the setting is a bit different, I think Harbor Town could be grouped with them...The small greens, tree lined fairways, need to shape the ball both ways throughout the course. I have no issue with CCC, Riviera, and HT. Though I think you are right, HT has a different "feel." I have no clue about Waialea bc I've never played there...

[knock it close]

I think you can get a good idea by looking at players who perform well at different courses. Phil plays well at ANGC and has won at Houston. Stric has won at colonial and Riv, same as Phil. Boo has won at colonial and Harbour.

[johnnydman]

I disagree about Muirfield being similar to Firestone.

Muirfield is sprawled out over hilly terrain, Firestone is compact and mostly flat.
Muirfield (Nicklaus) is a young course compared to Firestone (RTJ).

my .02

[melo]

Would this be easier if you just listed some sub-categories and then grouped them from there...for example: courses where you can drive it anywhere (like augusta), large greens, small greens, lots of undulation, tons of sand/hazards, courses with large amounts of water in play, tight driving course, short, long, flat, hills, doglegs etc. As courses fall into multiple categories you can then group them.

[golfnhack]

[quote name='melo' timestamp='1443718923' post='12396002']
Would this be easier if you just listed some sub-categories and then grouped them from there...for example: courses where you can drive it anywhere (like augusta), large greens, small greens, lots of undulation, tons of sand/hazards, courses with large amounts of water in play, tight driving course, short, long, flat, hills, doglegs etc. As courses fall into multiple categories you can then group them.
[/quote]

Wish I could. Ideally I would love to group individual "like" holes on every golf course. But I know that is asking too much. For now, I just need to group courses.