Laying off the club ...

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1420653603' post='10702257']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1420229981' post='10675561']
Moe never said his swing was the same as Hogan's. What he said was, they are both right side pullers.
[/quote]

Couldn't give a toss what Moe reckons , wtf does it have to do with Hogan ? right side puller lmao you mean moe tossed with his right hand pulling
[/quote]

Look boss, you were the one going on and on about Moe and Hogan having different swings, and I didn't see anyone claiming they are the same. Hogan drags his bent elbow through impact with the pivot with a late sidearm throw.

[Denny71]

It's a fine art experiencing this. Wish everyone could at least once

[mikah]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1420656719' post='10702621']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1420653603' post='10702257']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1420229981' post='10675561']
Moe never said his swing was the same as Hogan's. What he said was, they are both right side pullers.
[/quote]

Couldn't give a toss what Moe reckons , wtf does it have to do with Hogan ? right side puller lmao you mean moe tossed with his right hand pulling
[/quote]

Look boss, you were the one going on and on about Moe and Hogan having different swings, and I didn't see anyone claiming they are the same. Hogan drags his bent elbow through impact with the pivot with a late sidearm throw.
[/quote]

MJ,
others call, "pivot with a late sidearm throw" The Flail.
Many think a throw is a push, seemingly not knowing that muscles can only contract (pull)

Ben Hogan demonstrating the Flail. (starts at the top of the swing, with knees and hips, not shoulders):

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXkYzjoO09A."]https://www.youtube....?v=UXkYzjoO09A.[/url]

Peter Alliss explains the 'illusion' at the bottom of the flail.(hitting with hands ie forearm rotation)
[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paJvUaLcL-E"]https://www.youtube....h?v=paJvUaLcL-E[/url]

Like the illusion golfers before 1687 had about 'ground forces'.
Until Newton's third Law explained the illusion:

[color=#252525]The third law means that all forces are [/color][i][url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interaction"]interactions[/url][/i][color=#252525]between different bodies,[/color][sup][url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_laws_of_motion#cite_note-25"][25][/url][/sup][sup][url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_laws_of_motion#cite_note-26"][26][/url][/sup][color=#252525] and thus that there is no such thing as a unidirectional force or a force that acts on only one body. This law is sometimes referred to as the [/color][i][url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaction_(physics)"]action-reaction law[/url][/i][color=#252525], with [/color][b]F[/b][sub][i]A[/i][/sub][color=#252525] called the "action" and [/color][b]F[/b][sub][i]B[/i][/sub][color=#252525] the "reaction". The action and the reaction are simultaneous, and it does not matter which is called the [/color][i]action[/i][color=#252525] and which is called [/color][i]reaction[/i][color=#252525]; both forces are part of a single interaction, and neither force exists without the other.[/color][sup][url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_laws_of_motion#cite_note-resnick83-24"][24][/url][/sup]

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='Module Mahoney' timestamp='1436750629' post='11936540']
It's a fine art experiencing this. Wish everyone could at least once
[/quote]

Is Hughes teaching this?

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='mikah' timestamp='1436789564' post='11938206']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1420656719' post='10702621']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1420653603' post='10702257']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1420229981' post='10675561']
Moe never said his swing was the same as Hogan's. What he said was, they are both right side pullers.
[/quote]

Couldn't give a toss what Moe reckons , wtf does it have to do with Hogan ? right side puller lmao you mean moe tossed with his right hand pulling
[/quote]

Look boss, you were the one going on and on about Moe and Hogan having different swings, and I didn't see anyone claiming they are the same. Hogan drags his bent elbow through impact with the pivot with a late sidearm throw.
[/quote]

MJ,
others call, "pivot with a late sidearm throw" The Flail.
Many think a throw is a push [sup] [/sup]
[/quote]

LOL, just guys who didn't play baseball.

[Denny71]

It's easier to shallow the club when you have a proper exit/post impact. Easier to manage this one area than manage a downswing.

[mikah]

[quote name='Module Mahoney' timestamp='1437072636' post='11961266']
It's easier to shallow the club when you have a proper exit/post impact. Easier to manage this one area than manage a downswing.
[/quote]

"its too late to bolt the stable door, after the horse has bolted"

[color=#333333][size=4][background=rgb(252, 250, 243)]"Too little, too late," [/background][/size][/color]

[color=#333333][size=4][background=rgb(252, 250, 243)]"A day late and a dollar short."[/background][/size][/color]

[Denny71]

Never too late or your intentions remain the same. Your goal is the end result not the beginning. And this shallowing is as simple as locking a door. The proper swing is as hard as you want to make it

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='Module Mahoney' timestamp='1437072636' post='11961266']
It's easier to shallow the club when you have a proper exit/post impact. Easier to manage this one area than manage a downswing.
[/quote]

You lost me here - just how do you properly exit impact with a shallow shaft if you haven't managed to shallow it on the DS sometime before impact?????

[mikah]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1437144456' post='11966132']
[quote name='Module Mahoney' timestamp='1437072636' post='11961266']
It's easier to shallow the club when you have a proper exit/post impact. Easier to manage this one area than manage a downswing.
[/quote]

You lost me here - just how do you properly exit impact with a shallow shaft if you haven't managed to shallow it on the DS sometime before impact?????
[/quote]

The idea that we can or should have an intention of exit impact before we begin our golf swing is absurd.
DS?
You cant expect a proper BS , with only intention of post impact on your mind.

We can only have one key thought /intention at one time. the BS happens before the DS.

Post impact intentions are the creation of golf instructors, who may well be accomplished players, but who know nothing of how the motor cortex works.

[LaggingBehind]

[quote name='Module Mahoney' timestamp='1437072636' post='11961266']
It's easier to shallow the club when you have a proper exit/post impact. Easier to manage this one area than manage a downswing.
[/quote]
This intent has worked well for me. The feel of my hands exiting impact properly is a good focus and promotes good mechanics from backswing, downswing, and follow through. Hands exiting low and right, appearing out to in to my eyes but the firing of my left elbow squares the face and path (i'm lefty btw).

[Denny71]

Either you believe or you don't.

[mikah]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1437144456' post='11966132']
[quote name='Module Mahoney' timestamp='1437072636' post='11961266']
It's easier to shallow the club when you have a proper exit/post impact. Easier to manage this one area than manage a downswing.
[/quote]

You lost me here - just how do you properly exit impact with a shallow shaft if you haven't managed to shallow it on the DS sometime before impact?????
[/quote]

A proper exit from impact has the clubhead slowed by 20-30 %
and we know from kinematic sequence, the torso decelerated 100 th second, prior to impact along with arms and hands

and due to delay in nerve signals getting registered in the brain, post impact our brain is just registering the DS, convincing many that its the hands that create the clubhead speed at impact.

1:41
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paJvUaLcL-E


yet golf instructors convince their students of post impact acceleration....Its the same kind of non science instructors convinced Tiger to believe.

[Denny71]

That is an good video Mikah. But if I envision what the face/and shaft pressures will be post impact. It will completely alter my intentions naturally pre impact. I don't deny your posts, just different feels and intentions work differently for all of us

[mikah]

[quote name='Module Mahoney' timestamp='1437181957' post='11969858']
That is an good video Mikah. But if I envision what the face/and shaft pressures will be post impact. It will completely alter my intentions naturally pre impact. I don't deny your posts, just different feels and intentions work differently for all of us
[/quote]

Since the DS takes only 1/4 second, I assume you envision the face /and shaft pressures as a DS intention,
at moment when DS begins; not post impact. Ie your pouring on the power of the flail from top of the swing, as Peter Alliss stated in the video, using face/and shaft pressures intention.

I think when you have your intention is an important distinction. Nothing we think /intend after impact has happened will change impact.

[Denny71]

[quote name='mikah' timestamp='1437236891' post='11973052']
[quote name='Module Mahoney' timestamp='1437181957' post='11969858']
That is an good video Mikah. But if I envision what the face/and shaft pressures will be post impact. It will completely alter my intentions naturally pre impact. I don't deny your posts, just different feels and intentions work differently for all of us
[/quote]

Since the DS takes only 1/4 second, I assume you envision the face /and shaft pressures as a DS intention,
at moment when DS begins; not post impact. Ie your pouring on the power of the flail from top of the swing, as Peter Alliss stated in the video, using face/and shaft pressures intention.

I think when you have your intention is an important distinction. Nothing we think /intend after impact has happened will change impact.
[/quote]
Agree, but so many faults can be observed by club face angle exiting at left shoulder exit.

[Denny71]

[attachment=2860958:image.jpg]
Only area you need to observe. The face tells all

[mikah]

[quote name='Module Mahoney' timestamp='1437243366' post='11973502']
[attachment=2860958:image.jpg]
Only area you need to observe. The face tells all
[/quote]

agree.. thanks for hanging in to

make your very astute point.

[Denny71]

http://youtu.be/f4ToFe1AxXk

Good bye

[LaggingBehind]

[quote name='Module Mahoney' timestamp='1437923271' post='12021810']
[media=]http://youtu.be/f4ToFe1AxXk[/media]

Good bye
[/quote]
Nice video, I finally know why its easier for me to hit a draw from a slightly open stance. I can clear my hips sooner to avoid the dreaded stall/flip.

[mikah]

[quote name='LaggingBehind' timestamp='1437954435' post='12024120']
[quote name='Module Mahoney' timestamp='1437923271' post='12021810']
[media=]http://youtu.be/f4ToFe1AxXk[/media]

Good bye
[/quote]
Nice video, I finally know why its easier for me to hit a draw from a slightly open stance. I can clear my hips sooner to avoid the dreaded stall/flip.
[/quote]

Jack Nicklaus, hit a fade from a slightly open stance, but then again, he elevated his left shoulder, LOL

to achieve maximum width, just as Bradley Hughes did in his prime.(too bad, bad golf instruction, he has said, took away his swing from his prime)

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ocMJecgW2w"]https://www.youtube....h?v=5ocMJecgW2w[/url]


"setting wrists early", left shoulder lowered, and he had no width.(no left arm extension),
Watching Lydia Ko's swing disintegrate, is deja vu all over again. IMO

5:00
[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dY0aa6M8Nw"]https://www.youtube....h?v=7dY0aa6M8Nw[/url]wi

Cant layoff without left arm extension in BS, IMO

[LaggingBehind]

I can definitely hit a fade from open, just find it odd that draws come eaier when open also lol. Lately i set up left of the target for a draw, parallel to target line and then hit the damn thing straight. Then Set up straight at the pin and hit a draw and miss green rightside.

I think your right about the left arm extension and layoff, it really gets the right elbow out for a good side arm throw (the whole showing God the time thing right?) which ultimately causes the layoff imo.

[mikah]

[quote name='LaggingBehind' timestamp='1438049992' post='12031720']
I can definitely hit a fade from open, just find it odd that draws come eaier when open also lol. Lately i set up left of the target for a draw, parallel to target line and then hit the damn thing straight. Then Set up straight at the pin and hit a draw and miss green rightside.

I think your right about the left arm extension and layoff, it really gets the right elbow out for a good side arm throw (the whole showing God the time thing right?) which ultimately causes the layoff imo.
[/quote][quote name='LaggingBehind' timestamp='1438049992' post='12031720']
I can definitely hit a fade from open, just find it odd that draws come eaier when open also lol. Lately i set up left of the target for a draw, parallel to target line and then hit the damn thing straight. Then Set up straight at the pin and hit a draw and miss green rightside.

I think your right about the left arm extension and layoff, it really gets the right elbow out for a good side arm throw (the whole showing God the time thing right?) which ultimately causes the layoff imo.
[/quote]

LB,
With left arm effectively longer due to leverage created by scapula, the golf swing becomes’side one’ as Lane Holt described it.
‘side on’ now the right elbow becomes the pivot for the DS, as it is for a side arm throw... for "three right hands", no forearm rotation and no opposition required. Both right and left pulling in the same plane, pinkies ahead of thumbs.


LOL, some golf instructors recognizing that how Ben Hogan swung the golf club, required a freakishly long lead arm, gave up on trying to teach Hogan.

Every golf instructor and his brother has talked about ‘width’, but could never explain HOW?

Ben Hogan was no fool. In 5L(1957) telling us to hit the chin with the left shoulder at the top of the BS was the clue.

35 years later, thanks to Gerry Hogan, , who broke the code.
The Hogan Manual of Human Performance: GOLF, 1992

[mikah]

[quote name='LaggingBehind' timestamp='1438049992' post='12031720']
I can definitely hit a fade from open, just find it odd that draws come eaier when open also lol. Lately i set up left of the target for a draw, parallel to target line and then hit the damn thing straight. Then Set up straight at the pin and hit a draw and miss green rightside.

I think your right about the left arm extension and layoff, it really gets the right elbow out for a good side arm throw (the whole showing God the time thing right?) which ultimately causes the layof
[/quote]

at 0:56 we see why Ben Hogan had the layoff....to position the golf club at 90 degrees to his spine.

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ul918nyx8Yo"]https://www.youtube....h?v=Ul918nyx8Yo[/url]

at no time do his hands leave the golf club or his arms go behind.
He isnt a contortionist.

"Keep arms in front" is like telling a driver with two hands on the steering wheel not to put his arms behind himself.

[Lime Shark]

Has anyone considered that Hogan's laying off of the club might have simply been an anti-toping move?

I experimented with what Tom Bertrand calls "the Hogan twist" on the backswing. This is the move that produces the big, cupped wrist. The only benefit I noticed is it enabled me to keep my arm straight, no matter how hard or far I turned (it seems to be all but impossible--for me anyway--to bend the arm when you are concentrating on rotating it).

Unfortunately, it cause me to top the heck out of the ball.

When I added Hogan's layoff move (as demoed by Bertrand) at the top of the backswing, the topping went away.

To be honest, I found the whole process to be too-many-steps/too-much-to-think-about, so I didn't persue it long term. But, I can see how the pieces working together could produce a solid swing motion.

[MizunoJoe]

I don't think Hogan did anything on the DS to avoid topping, he only did things to avoid hooking. And I don't know that he actually did that Bertrand move anyway.

[Jobu]

Laying happens because of gravity and a delayed hit. Hogan used a steep release to offset the club head getting under plane.

[mikah]

[quote name='Jobu' timestamp='1451669307' post='12788594']
Laying happens because of gravity and a delayed hit. Hogan used a steep release to offset the club head getting under plane.
[/quote]

To achieve maximum leverage with a crow bar or axe both our arms(levers) pull on a common plane to the crow bar /axe.
(the Slot).

The layoff move in golf is necessary to be in position for both arms(levers) to pull the club down, in the Slot.

Without control of the hands, the layoff move is catch-as- catch-can. It doesnt just happen.

and without control of the hands, OTT or being 'Stuck' are more likely.

[Pinsplitter59]

Hmmmm... i thought we all knew that Hogan did not lay off the club, i.e. it was not under the backswing plane in the downswing.

And he did not right side arm throw as he even showed in attached pic., unless you bend him over into a proper body position for a golf swing.

 

 

It seems his right forearm comes "over" and straightens and heads well to the left while staying quite straight for a long time.

A "sidearm" throw puts the club over the top of the left arm much too early.

His best demonstration of this action is his slow motion demo in the Coleman film.

IMHo the sidearm throw and the laying off ideas are wrong in reality and very misleading.

Hogan's demonstations of feel often do not equate to what he really did in his swing.