How to shape shots using ball flight laws

[gmorgan88]

I have been watching Dan Whitaker's ball flight laws on youtube and think I have further confused myself. I have some questions I am hoping someone with knowledge on ball flight laws can help with.

 

1. With a short iron, the descending blow causes the face to be open, so to hit a straight shot, you must aim to the left. Question: how would you hit a draw with a short iron? Seems that you would aim the club face right of the target and aim further left---this seems counter intuitive to me.

 

2. Question regarding how to aim further left. Does this mean that I take the grip slightly open or do I take the same square grip and simply point the clubface in that direction?

 

3. With a longer club -- to hit a draw Dan states that you would align the face slightly open and be closed relative to your ball to target line. If you do this, aren't you technically aligned squarely only slightly right of your intended target.

 

4. For a fade, you close the face relative to the ball to target line and open your body slightly more than where the clubface is pointing.

 

5. In all of this, are you still swinging down your body lines? What the heck is the arc of approach.

 

I desperately want to understand this but the video seems to contradict itself. More likely -- I am just over analyzing and have lost sight somewhere.

 

Thank you for any input. What would be really neat is some small chart that I could reference to help make sense of all this.

[AllenResGolf]

Here is a more visual with alignment sticks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wnq6TiXw7wU


Here is a diagram of the ball flight laws.

[attachment=1483851:Ball Flight Laws small.jpg]

The face is open to the target and closed to an in to out path to hit a draw.

At adress I close the face a little and aim to the right of the target and swing in to out for a draw. I do the opposite for a fade.

[PutterKilledTheDream]

Because the golf swing is on an inclined arc, the more 'down' you swing ( think attack angle) the more the PATH moves right, not the FACE. Therefore if you're going to strike down, like you should, with short irons, you swing more leftward to offset the outward moving PATH to get it moving down the line toward the target. To hit the ball straight, your club face and the club path have to me moving in the same direction. If you want to hit a straight shot, aim the club face at the target and simply align your feet slightly left ( overall opening of body/stance) then hit downward and swing normally. The easiest way to understand it is to realize the ball will take off on the line that the face is pointing at impact....swing 'left' of where the face is aimed to hit a fade, swing right of where the face is pointing to hit a draw. You swing along your feet/body line and adjust the face of the club to create the curvature.

[gmorgan88]

Fantastic. Thank you so much for your help with this. Seems to make more sense now. Especially the downward attack! I pretty much hit down on every iron to some degree so for a straight ball, I would aim slightly left and move closer to square as the iron got longer. For a driver, because I am hitting up on it, I would have to be closed slightly to have the ball travel straight?

[AllenResGolf]

[quote name='gmorgan88' timestamp='1357870515' post='6207225']
Fantastic. Thank you so much for your help with this. Seems to make more sense now. Especially the downward attack! I pretty much hit down on every iron to some degree so for a straight ball, I would aim slightly left and move closer to square as the iron got longer. For a driver, because I am hitting up on it, I would have to be closed slightly to have the ball travel straight?
[/quote]

Keep in mind that it depends on where the ball is in your stance as well.

[PutterKilledTheDream]

[quote name='gmorgan88' timestamp='1357870515' post='6207225']
Fantastic. Thank you so much for your help with this. Seems to make more sense now. Especially the downward attack! I pretty much hit down on every iron to some degree so for a straight ball, I would aim slightly left and move closer to square as the iron got longer. For a driver, because I am hitting up on it, I would have to be closed slightly to have the ball travel straight?
[/quote] Correct with the driver...if your attack angle is upward than you'd aim your body slightly to the right to square the path. You'd change your swing direction closer to square with the long irons if your attack angle is level. If you're still hitting down significantly with long irons, you'd actually shift your swing even further left because the longer irons have a flatter swing plane than the short irons, with a flatter swing plane the 'downward' attack of the club causes the path to move further out to the right. Basic rule of thumb is that with roughly 45* swing plane ( driver, possible long irons) for every downward degree of attack the club moves outward a degree. With a 60* swing plane ( mid/short irons) for every degree downward of attack the club moves about 1/2 a degree- not as significant. Thats why it's harder to create a big curvature with a wedge vs. a 4-iron. In simplest terms, the further away you stand from the ball, the more attack angle changes the club path.

[gmorgan88]

That is very interesting and makes a lot of sense. Thank you again for your help. I do have a question about a wedge, let's say I'm hitting a 54 degree wedge and the swing plane is at 60 degrees. I know I attack the ball from the inside so to hit it straight, I would have to aim my body slightly to the left to account for the club face being more open at impact. How does one hit a draw with a wedge? The diagram above would state that in order to have the ball start right of the target and come back to the target, the face must be slightly open at impact and the path needs to be slightly more to the right than the club face. This seems impossible If I need to aim to the left to get the club face back to remotely square.

[PutterKilledTheDream]

[quote name='gmorgan88' timestamp='1357921029' post='6209957']
That is very interesting and makes a lot of sense. Thank you again for your help. I do have a question about a wedge, let's say I'm hitting a 54 degree wedge and the swing plane is at 60 degrees. I know I attack the ball from the inside so to hit it straight, I would have to aim my body slightly to the left to account for the club face being more open at impact. How does one hit a draw with a wedge? The diagram above would state that in order to have the ball start right of the target and come back to the target, the face must be slightly open at impact and the path needs to be slightly more to the right than the club face. This seems impossible If I need to aim to the left to get the club face back to remotely square.
[/quote] Wedges are much more difficult to create curvature with than the longer clubs because of many factors-but mostly because the loft keeps the ball's spin axis from tilting too much. I think your confusing club face with club path. The club face is independent from club path ( which is defined as direction the club's center of gravity is moving at impact). The club path is what moves out to the right because of the attack angle, the face itself could theoretically still be open, square, or closed at impact. To hit it straight the face and path need to be moving in the same direction. To create a 'draw' as your describing you'd have to have the face open/pointing right of the target and your club path moving even farther right than the face. With high lofted clubs, you'd have to overexaggerate the inside out swing with the face signifcantly closed to the swing path at impact. It's tough to move wedges either direction for these reasons.

[Peter_b]

Lets shove this 3 year old piece back in the oven to warm it up. Now I see two methods to square up the face when hitting down. To aim left as described here or to swing hard left. Now, am I right in the assumption the aim left method produces much less ball speed than compensate the d-plane by the swing?

[PutterKilledTheDream]

No you're wrong. Actually I've verified years ago that a swing direction that's left and steeper actually produced faster club and ball speed. Hitting down has nothing to do with the face angle.

[Cicero]

No you're wrong. Actually I've verified years ago that a swing direction that's left and steeper actually produced faster club and ball speed. Hitting down has nothing to do with the face angle.

 

I've found that to be true in my case as well. More head speed and ball speed.

[Peter_b]

No you're wrong. Actually I've verified years ago that a swing direction that's left and steeper actually produced faster club and ball speed. Hitting down has nothing to do with the face angle.

So you are basically saying there i no d-plane? As that is what I see they try to explain in the D-plane. Positive shaft lean and negative attack angle opens the club as the clubhead would be back in the swing arc not yet at the bottom of the arc. To hit the ball plane shifts left a bit?

Secondly downward is automatically steeper? So I would ruin my swing swinging steeper, I come from there, but I can very well change my AOA and swing left on those irons. Also I dont see the Tour swinging steep and still bombing them. OK Bubba does.

I am asking here PKTDream, not trying to start the general golfwrx high noon I would btw loose by all means. Please explain your theory.

[Hoganstriker]

I dunno on left and steep being long. Over the top hits short. Flush and at the target is more like it intuitively. Swinging left by definition is a glancing blow. At the target is flush. IMO flush is where you wanna hang out.

IMO swinging left is a very misleading concept. IMO as you rotate you fire at the target not left of it. Hogan showed the ds plane shifted RIGHT of targetline not left. That intent makes more sense to me.

IMO if you can elongate the flat spot at the bottom you can give margin for error swinging left is not intuitive.

[Peter_b]

Hogan showed the ds plane shifted RIGHT of targetline not left.

Did he show that on the driver as there I would agree but it doesn’t make sense for irons. Can you point to the source?

[Hoganstriker]

I am referring to the plane pictures in the 5l book. Remember his stance too that's key. The shorter the club the more open the stance and with driver square.

The stance accounts for the correct path at impact.

Fwiw I think the paramount pure arc deal is best applied in the full swing. Little hands manipulation or arms and pure turn of the torso...Keep hands quiet.

[Peter_b]

See 5L page 125 picture. He stood closed with driver and open with short clubs which is just what the D-plane says. Driver upwards (+aoa) leave plane a bit outward or to target (which is outward clubhead-wise). On -aoa irons open, leave plane inside.

Its basically a bend of the plane without moving the head (player).

Curious what PKTD has to say as he thinks the above is bull. I just don't get why.

[Hoganstriker]

I like the idea of impact level for driver.

[PutterKilledTheDream]

See 5L page 125 picture. He stood closed with driver and open with short clubs which is just what the D-plane says. Driver upwards (+aoa) leave plane a bit outward or to target (which is outward clubhead-wise). On -aoa irons open, leave plane inside.

Its basically a bend of the plane without moving the head (player).

Curious what PKTD has to say as he thinks the above is bull. I just don't get why.

I think you're very confused about what I believe. What I said has nothing to do with d plane, it has to do with what creates the most speed. For me, a leftward path and swing direction that's steeper yields higher club head speed than a shallower, rightward one. what does any of what I just said have to do with the path and loft and the angle formed between those two? Nothing to do with explaining how the ball curves.

[Peter_b]

I would have been confused if you meant D-plane or paths, which you are not and which I misunderstood. Thanks for making it clear.

[PutterKilledTheDream]

I dunno on left and steep being long. Over the top hits short. Flush and at the target is more like it intuitively. Swinging left by definition is a glancing blow. At the target is flush. IMO flush is where you wanna hang out.

IMO swinging left is a very misleading concept. IMO as you rotate you fire at the target not left of it. Hogan showed the ds plane shifted RIGHT of targetline not left. That intent makes more sense to me.

IMO if you can elongate the flat spot at the bottom you can give margin for error swinging left is not intuitive.

A leftward swing direction is not over the top and using basic geometric principles, if you do hit down your swing direction would always be left if you end up 'flush and at the target'. Swinging left is different than having a plane that's oriented left.

[Peter_b]

You practically leave the plane to compensate the AOA that is not 0.

[PutterKilledTheDream]

'Leave'??? That's like implying every golfer that manages to zero out their path is somehow consciously swinging to the left. They're not. Straight hitters naturally have a leftward-oriented swing direction. It's not a 'shift' and it's not OTT either.

[Hoganstriker]

When you get into the d plane things get technical. In practice I find best results swinging at the target. Hook swing right fade swing left.

[Peter_b]

Oh I love technical

 

'Leave'??? That's like implying every golfer that manages to zero out their path is somehow consciously swinging to the left. They're not. Straight hitters naturally have a leftward-oriented swing direction. It's not a 'shift' and it's not OTT either.

 

 

How would you then describe the compensation move for the negative attack angle on irons?

[PutterKilledTheDream]

Oh I love technical

 

'Leave'??? That's like implying every golfer that manages to zero out their path is somehow consciously swinging to the left. They're not. Straight hitters naturally have a leftward-oriented swing direction. It's not a 'shift' and it's not OTT either.

 

 

How would you then describe the compensation move for the negative attack angle on irons?

I wouldn't say there is one. If anything, maybe a slightly open stance but definitely not a 'move'. To me that implies a deliberate action.