Open source Face Labels for Lie angle - DIY lie angle testing

[Enfynet]

Lie angle is the angle the shaft rises above horizontal when the club face is square and level.

[Buddha]

Lie angle is the angle the shaft rises above horizontal when the club face is square and level.

 

I know what the lie angle is. That wasn't what I asked.

[Enfynet]

In that case, I don't know what you are asking. If the design of the head changes the lie angle, then the lie angle changes.

 

Unless you are asking about the angle created at address when shaft length changes?

[Buddha]

So say you have two heads, for comparison sake, a Cally XR 7i and TM RSi 7i, both at 37". Is it possible that the design of the two different heads can change the required lie angle for your 37" club, or the length itself will dictate the needed lie? I assume it is just length, but don't know enough about head design/construction to know if it plays a factor.

[Buddha]

I guess after actually thinking about it, length is the only factor in the correct lie angle, or at least should be.

[Enfynet]

Yes, at the same length, clubs should have the same lie (for a specific golfer)

[Manz60]

this was already done by Golftek but the kit was very expensive ($80.00).

 

http://wishongolf.com/etech/archive/2010-2/april-2010/#The How-To of Clubfitting: Part 5, Fitting Lie Angles

 

even if we knew the lie needed to be bent 2° flat, the golfer still has to re-hit the club to confirm the lie angle is correct - a straight up and down line. I don't think we can just look at the label, bend 2° and call it a day.

 

But a cheaper label would be nice.

 

Hope this helps

M60

[Golfrnut]

So say you have two heads, for comparison sake, a Cally XR 7i and TM RSi 7i, both at 37". Is it possible that the design of the two different heads can change the required lie angle for your 37" club, or the length itself will dictate the needed lie? I assume it is just length, but don't know enough about head design/construction to know if it plays a factor.

 

Yes, the downward bowing of the shaft(known as toe droop) is due to the CG attempting to align itself with the forces acting upon it. CG location, head weight, and shaft stiffness can all have an effect on the dynamic lie angle when swung.

[Howard_Jones]

C-Dim or distance from the shaft center measured in a 90 degree angle to COG might be different (longer or shorter), but i have not digged into C-dim vs standard lie angle specs where that should be visible if it makes a difference.

We should test the actual club in the players hand anyway to make it right, so it would only have a theoretical value to know.

 

PS! a word about using those labels.

ANGLE reading is the purpose and what to look at, the printed line from the ball dont always hit the line we see on the label

(heel to toe axis)

 

Thats because we can make a heel or toe impact who was not caused by the lie angle itself, (who also influence on where impact ends heel to toe, but not as a constant factor). The line would be slightly off 90* in those cases, but "misplaced" on the heel to toe axis. if that happens, make sure your stance and ball position is like it should be and try again to see if you are able to make impact at the center (between -1 and +1 lines)

 

Here is a photo of the measure system i started from, it has a GREEN Frame as part of it.

It was used in my club fitting classes, but combined with Trackman.

The Green frame has 3 examples of more or less correct lie but wrong club length.

 

 

 

Most heads has a limit for how much they can be bended, normally 2* both ways, and since the system was meant to take care of length and lie at the same time, we can only do that if we are 100% sure heel or toe side impact NOT came from another Club parameter or the players swing/stance or grip height on the club. All must be "Lab conditions" and thats not possible DIY. (Thats why Trackman was involved, plus i made sure the players stance and ball position was correct)

 

But still, no player impact the exact same spot 10/10, so we look for trends and average, and for lie angles its the angle itself who is #1, and impact heel to toe is #2 since it might be other reasons than the lie angle who caused that.

 

Those who know the "lie board system" would recognize what ive done.

Its the same distance markers from the sole ive moved to the face, and changed plus to minus (upright to flat)

The top of the green frame is the "top ruler", and when i plotted the trends of impact lines, it became this:

 

 

 

EDIT : it was the wrong photo added, this explains it better.

Sole marks is moved to the face. The Photo is NOT 1:1 , is made for explanation only.

What we really measure is THE BOTTOM WIDE of the triangle, so here i have misplaced it to point at 1+ while the impact line ANGLE makes it a 2+. The BOX measure size have been changed a few times, so i ended up with the latest label where we simply align with the lowest groove on the face, and the center of the grooves heel to toe, but again, its the ANGLE we have to pay attention to, NOT so much where we end heel or toe side.

 

PS! the triangle is "misplaced" and points at 1+ on purpose

 

 

 

Here 3 Flat or 2 Up is explained.

Its the WIDE on the bottom of the triangle we get in the measure box, so extend the impact line both ways in the measure box, and measure the wide on the triangle you get, thats whats behind it all. and it happens to mach with a Protractor with 10 :1 but its possible more extensive testing shows it should be 8:1. What we are 100% sure of is that a line strait up and down = correct lie angle, the rest is still subject for debate when we try to "decode" and translate impact marks to a measure system.

 

 

 

With out the Protractor behind as a label measurement, we can draw a "Measure box" on the face like ive done here, so when the impact line is extended both ways in that box makes a triangle, we measure how wide the bottom of the triangle is and convert 2/8 to 1* lie.

 

Since its the ANGLE at impact we measure, we could also use a "hand held" thing like this if it was made in a transparent plastic, and then we just compare the angle to our impact print.

 

 

 

Thats why i want as many as possible to take part of this project, to end up with something good and usefull for as many as possible, and easy to use and read. I DONT thing we shall have any ambition to make it work for all clubs in a set so a player can just label all clubs, hit balls and send his clubs off with mail for adjustment. That would be fantastic, but not a good idea.

 

I Still suggest its done using a #6 to #8 iron, and tweak that iron until its good.

Then measure how you ended vs Standard specs (1 upright or what ever)

Make a slope based on standard specs, and offset them 1 up or what ever your target is.

Bend all clubs to this new specs

Test all clubs with labels

Tweak clubs who did not turn out right.

 

Thats the best and fastest way to make it right.

[Bobalu]

Howard, can you add to your dropbox a highest resolution jpg image of just one label? Thanks for working on this.

[Howard_Jones]

Maybe this will do?

Actual size measured on the frame is 2.5" x 1.0"

 

 

 

 

[Bobalu]

Avery makes a removeable white label 22828 that is 1.25" by 1.75" that is the perfect size for an iron face. Avery has an online "Make your own labels" utility to print labels using Avery templates - either print yourself or order online. It is difficult on the Avery site to properly resize- but not impossible- even using their "fixed aspect" ratios. It would be better to crop the original image that you have to maintain proper lie angles and then upload as an alternative label size- if you are willing.

 

Maybe this will do?

Actual size measured on the frame is 2.5" x 1.0"

 

 

 

Thanks. the smaller label is easier to place but especially to center between the iron face grooves.

[Howard_Jones]

Avery makes a removeable white label 22828 that is 1.25" by 1.75" that is the perfect size for an iron face. Avery has an online "Make your own labels" utility to print labels using Avery templates - either print yourself or order online. It is difficult on the Avery site to properly resize- but not impossible- even using their "fixed aspect" ratios. It would be better to crop the original image that you have to maintain proper lie angles and then upload as an alternative label size- if you are willing.

 

Maybe this will do?

Actual size measured on the frame is 2.5" x 1.0"

 

 

 

Thanks. the smaller label is easier to place but especially to center between the iron face grooves.

 

This is a sample cut down to 1.5 x 1.0 - does not have to be bigger, but a long one is more easy to align with the lowest groove

 

 

[Bobalu]

Avery makes a removeable white label 22828 that is 1.25" by 1.75" that is the perfect size for an iron face. Avery has an online "Make your own labels" utility to print labels using Avery templates - either print yourself or order online. It is difficult on the Avery site to properly resize- but not impossible- even using their "fixed aspect" ratios. It would be better to crop the original image that you have to maintain proper lie angles and then upload as an alternative label size- if you are willing.

 

Maybe this will do?

Actual size measured on the frame is 2.5" x 1.0"

 

 

 

Thanks. the smaller label is easier to place but especially to center between the iron face grooves.

 

This is a sample cut down to 1.5 x 1.0 - does not have to be bigger, but a long one is more easy to align with the lowest groove

 

 

 

Thanks

[Bobalu]

Avery 22828 removeable adhesive labels- easy to recenter and reposition. 1" by 1.5"- used the Avery Online template. Pretty easy to place on the iron's bottom groove and center between the outer aspects of the grooves.

 

Lettering cut off on labels to fit- :not_i:

 

You can print a label sheet using this PDF and Avery 22828 labels:

 

PDF:

 

PDF Longer Lines:

 

 

[Howard_Jones]

If you find out you want to try a different angle than 10:1 i found out that if you just stretch the height from 1.0 to 1 1/8, you get 9:1 (9-18-27), and the steepest ive tried is stretched to 1 2/8 who gives about 7:1 or 7-14-21.

 

You keep the wide, and stretch it on height to make this, i found no clear pattern who say its 11 or 7, but its in that area, and like one above said, it might be different depending on the clubs loft, and ive done all my testing with a #6 iron of 31*

 

Feel free to modify and make your own version as you like, its far from clear what works the best or is the most easy to use.

 

Try it on a driver with adjustable lie and see if its useful, i dont have any with adjustable hosels here, and if it turns out that the driver has less angle difference or ratio, you know how to adjust the label, just stretch it on height

 

Here is how this 3 looks side by side - the biggest gives 1. 2/8 height = 7:1 - Medium 1 1/8 height = 9:1, Smallest 1.0 height = 10:1

 

 

[Bobalu]

Just from looking at the angles, I'm guessing that 10:1 will end up too much after testing. At least we know 0* in the center is correct. (cool)

[Howard_Jones]

Just from looking at the angles, I'm guessing that 10:1 will end up too much after testing. At least we know 0* in the center is correct. (cool)

 

If you look on the others above, i guess you could do the math and see that 1 3/16 gives a ratio of 8.5:1 if you want that option too

[Howard_Jones]

Not that easy to judge if 1* should be 7 - 8,5 or 10 like this 3 shows.

 

 

[mikpga]

Very nice! Make it as big as possible...

 

Offer a chart which demonstrates how many yards offline incorrect lie angles would cause...(HG's chart was awesome)...

 

Create a thin dry erase marker as an accessory...

 

But, reality is, it's just easy to wipe off the dry erase mark off the face with a towel...

[Howard_Jones]

i suggest you extend the printed line on the face to better be able to judge its angle.

[Bobalu]

i suggest you extend the printed line on the face to better be able to judge its angle.

 

Edited previous post to add a PDF label sheet with longer angle lines. Consider printing with black printer ink only and use thin red marker line on ball for contrast.

[Howard_Jones]

i made the 3 different angle options 10, 8.5 and 7 into labels of 1.75 x 1.25

 

 

 

 

 

That might make it easier to add them to a Avery label

[Bobalu]

Thanks Howard. Could you upload jpg images without the optional GolfWRX logo- just to make the labels simpler?

[Howard_Jones]

Thanks Howard. Could you upload jpg images without the optional GolfWRX logo- just to make the labels simpler?

 

Sorry, have not seen your post before now, but at the moment im not close to the machine the originals is on, so im not able to upload them again without the water mark.

 

FEEDBACK?

- To those of you who have tried them out, How do they work, and what did you try it on? (club and loft on that club, how good was the label?)

[Bobalu]

I've used the original labels, but my iron lie angles were already spot on the 0* line. I had already personally dialed these in. :D

 

The Summer heat index here has been around 105* F, and I'm going to wait until cooler weather to properly test some other irons.

 

I liked using the labels. Printed them out in all black ink. Used a red marker line on the ball which made it easy to see the red line on the label.

[smellysell]

Wish I had a loft/lie machine. I'd love to get my lies dialed in better.

[GP_4]

Howard,

 

This is some great stuff. So using a dry erase marker just line up the line to the target, swing away then inspect club face for results?

[Howard_Jones]

Howard,

 

This is some great stuff. So using a dry erase marker just line up the line to the target, swing away then inspect club face for results?

 

almost....

 

Find the MID of the grooves, so the 0 line gets on the mid.

The line in the ball must be against the face, not target line :-)

Let the bottom of the sticker follow the lowest groove

 

The label will then tell where to go from where this club is now (whatever that might be)

use it for the #6 iron, and use the offset number for all club like this:

 

If the label say go 1 upright, take the club to a bending machine and bend it 1 up from what ever specs it got now.

If it was dead on standard as it was, use 1 up for all clubs vs standard specs. if it already was 1 up, then go 2 up vs standard for all clubs.

 

Have some focus on where on the grip you put your hands, both white rings on top of your grips shall be visible, NOT hidden under you upper hand. Make sure ball position is as it should be, the rest is strait forward.

 

PS! its the ANGLE of the line who counts here, so if the line is a bit misplaced, dont worry to much about that, it might have been your swing or ball position, in some cases, a wrong club length for you, so judge the line angle of the print vs the label.

The angle lines on the label takes lie angle into account, so the line will move when lie angle is changed to what it should be, meaning a wrong lie angle is often the reason for why we dont make impact on the center or the face.

 

Many complains about this Avery stickers, after hitting its really hard to get them off the face again, so use another sort of tape as first layer (Graffa tape might be the best)

 

PS the label is NOT developed to be used for ALL clubs in the bag, i never got to the point where enough testing was done to figure out if the angles on the label is "good" for all lofts, but it can still be used to know if lie is to upright or to flat for any club in the bag from driver to wedge, but the label might mislead a bit when loft get to low or to high vs a #6 iron, but for a #6 iron at plus minus 30* its as good as can be.

[GP_4]

Thank you for this explanation. I will try this out and report results. You have said a lot in this thread in a bunch of different posts. Have you considered making a new thread that has all of your ideas and explanations condensed into one post?