Swing Thoughts or Feel Thoughts?..That There Is Even A Discussion Amazes Me..

[Jim Waldron]

Jim, I see on our range many people who practice their back swing and down swing to impact in slow motion but hardly anyone practicing a full follow though in slow motion. This also seems to be much more difficult, as least if you try to have a finish like Adam Scott. Would you say that mid to low hcp players could improve much more if they spend more time practicing the follow through in slow motion?

 

Yes! And I see that as well...the head pro at my club is a very good teacher who does mainly 45 minute to one hour lessons and one of his key principles when working with mid to high caps is showing them the proper Finish position. It is amazing to see how fast their ballstriking improves simply by the student knowing how to Finish.

[Jim Waldron]

Here are the two Awareness exercises. They blend both awareness itself or more accurately Meta-Awareness with the narrow focus.

Meta-Awareness is high clarity awareness of the mind observing the mind. Normal awareness has a dull and vague kind of aspect to it. Normal awareness lacks the certainty and clarity of Meta-Awareness.

 

Kind of like the difference between two dimensional spatial awareness vs three dimensional, the 3D kind is self-evidently more accurate and gives much higher feedback input.

 

The narrow focus part is all about learning how to tame your "wandering mind". In golf, a wandering mind tends to make you flinch.

 

You need a partner for the first exercise.

 

1. your partner puts his hand on your shoulder. He asks you to turn your head and look at his hand. That is your mind in external Visual Channel.

 

2. he asks you to close your eyes and "picture" his hand on your shoulder. When you see the image of his hand, you are in internal Visual Channel.

 

3. he asks you to say out loud "Bob (your partner) hand is touching my shoulder". That is external Auditory or Voice Channel.

 

4. he asks you to say that same sentence in your mind. When you hear the words, you are in internal Auditory or Voice Channel.

 

5. he pulses his hand on your shoulder, while with your eyes closed, you feel the pulses. If you are seeing a visual image or hearing a voice, you let those go and arrive in a state of pure sensation. That is Feel Channel.

 

The next part of the exercise Bob will say one of the following cues: "picture, voice or feel". Your mind should go to the Channel that the cue is all about. When your mind arrives there, you nod your head so Bob knows you are there. Then he will give you the next cue. Every few seconds he is giving you a different cue and you are rapidly shifting between the 3 channels.

[Jim Waldron]

After just a few minutes of doing that first exercise, your ability to know which Channel you are in, and to shift back and forth between them, becomes much better.

 

The second exercise is simple to explain - but for most golfers, really hard to do.

 

Your mind will be in Feel Channel on one single body part for the entire duration of your swing, and swing at normal speed.

 

You are NOT trying to make your body or body part do anything or not do anything. Your intention is to be 100% passive but simply notice what you notice in Feel - without any judgement.

 

This is called Passive Directed Body Awareness training.

 

Before doing it with a club in your hand and while swinging, I usually recommend doing this little exercise as an intro to the drill.

 

Have your partner stand in front of you, while you create your left hand grip position. He will grasp your hand and c0ck your wrist slowly up and down while you feel the sensation in your wrist in Feel. That is where your mind should be doing the exercise while swinging normally with a club in your hand.

 

After every swing, pause and evaluate how well you did the drill. Did your mind start off in Feel and then switch to Visual (very common!) Did your focus stay on your left wrist or wander off to another body part? (very common). Did you hear your internal voice in your head talking about the left wrist or judging the drill? (very common).

 

The goal is to eventually be able to swing with your mind glued to the sensations in your left wrist - and nowhere else! - from start to finish.

 

When you can do that - all without a ball - then graduate to hitting a ball. Much, much harder with a ball - since the ball represents the possibility of failure.

 

Soon you will be able to keep your mind on your left wrist in Feel while hitting balls.

 

It is a huge Wake Up Call for every student I have shown this to.

 

After an hour or so of left wrist as your focal point, try left hip or right shoulder or left knee or right elbow, etc.

 

But only one of those at a time!

[swhogan35]

Following with interest.

 

Looking forward to learning more about the difference between "feeling" a move vs visualizing it.

 

I think this is the key to connecting both. I work a lot with players on Focusband and it's a great feedback system for being able to take a swing though and move it into a more reactive state. Research is showing that external keys for learning are proving most effective to help develop repeatable habits, and also be able to play the game. So we work a lot on learning how to create a picture of what you want and then allowing your body the opportunity to feel the move that creates the picture. Those that are able to do this see better results in a shorter amount of time.

 

Another interesting idea that I just saw at the World Golf Fitness Summit was talking with Sean Hutchinson of Ikkos Golf and listening to his presentation. He coaches US Swimming and they began using virtual reality to correct motions of their swimmers. Swimmers would sit in a dark room with VR goggles on showing only the motion they wanted to emulate of a swimmer. They would have headphones on and watch 30 reps of the move. Then, without any practice after, they would go swim and they would see the immediate corrections take place for the swimmer which they verified with video. Michael Phelps used this technology as well. The idea was give the athlete an image to visualize and then work backwards from there. The idea is being transitioned to golf (there is a free app called "Copy Me Golf"), and the idea is to work backwards from what is ideal and then you get the video of the swing you want and then perform the process with the app. I bring this up, not saying it's the bible, but I love the idea of how we are looking to improve in the ideas of performance, and I think some exciting things are coming up. Can't wait for the PGA Show for more on this!

[Jim Waldron]

Mirrors are the "low tech" way to use the external Visual Channel to program into long term motor memory the proper Outer Form.

 

But I agree - virtual reality tech will accelerate Deep Learning. I have had several discussions with a student of mine who is a pioneer in the development of VR.

 

You nailed it " feeling the move that creates the picture".

 

One of the advantages of Feel channel is that by definition you are always in First Person Perspective, which is a much stronger mind-brain/body connection than Second or Third Person. In visual or auditory, you are in second or third person.

 

Athletes perform better from First Person with mind/body unity.

 

Visual great for programming in - Feel great for execution.

[northgolf]

Feel is a thought. Perception is active not passive.

[Jim Waldron]

Feel is a thought. Perception is active not passive.

 

You are free to make up any definition you like, but feel is most certainly not thought. You are conflating consciousness with thought - which is exactly the point I was making in that article. Very common mistake and why golfers struggle so much with the game.

 

Passive vs active means just observing neutrally without reacting, interfering or judging. My guess is that you have never taken a golf swing with that mindset - of neutral observation. Most golfers have not. It normally takes my typical student at least 30 or so swings to achieve it on just one swing.

 

I challenge you to do the exercises and see for yourself if you can notice the clear distinction between a direct perception of your body in Feel vs symbolic consciousness of internal visual or auditory.

[Golfbeat]

I would agree that perception is active. Like observation in physics?

[Jim Waldron]

I would agree that perception is active. Like observation in physics?

 

Here is what I mean by "active": You can react to your initial feel channel perception of the sensation arising from that c0cking left wrist, by judging it to be "correct mechanics" or "incorrect mechanics" - which is what 99% of my new students do when first engaging in the exercise.

 

Possible to be in a state of consciousness of zero reaction but just observation - anyone who has ever mediated properly knows what I am talking about.

 

A symbol is not the same thing as the reality it points to. An internal visual image about your left wrist c0cking is a different kind of perception than the pure sensation of how the muscles and joint are moving. The first is symbolic and the second is grounded in the physical reality of your body.

 

Hogan talked about "not adding yourself the swing" when asked what was the single biggest difference between him and his average amateur pro am playing partners. He said that as they got closer to starting their swing, that they "added more" - he said he tried to "remove myself" from the swing.

[ofortuna]

he said he tried to "remove myself" from the swing.

 

I wish I could "remove myself" from the swing. It'd be easier on my back!

 

How do you do a slow motion swing in pure "feel" without any focus on where your body parts are in space? Through repetition, does your focus on position decrease as you get more into auto-pilot?

[Jim Waldron]

he said he tried to "remove myself" from the swing.

 

I wish I could "remove myself" from the swing. It'd be easier on my back!

 

How do you do a slow motion swing in pure "feel" without any focus on where your body parts are in space? Through repetition, does your focus on position decrease as you get more into auto-pilot?

 

I am not totally clear what your question means. When you focus in Feel channel on a body part, you are noticing certain aspects of how that body part is behaving: the shape it moves through space is just one way to notice. The sensation of the muscle firing is another. The speed the body part is moving is another.

 

A position is a moment frozen in time. It can be effective to pose in a position for a few seconds and check out your Form in a mirror.

 

The secret is to do the exercise with an open mind and "notice what you notice". There is no right or wrong.

[drewtaylor21]

This is a really interesting thread, thanks for starting it Richard, and thank you Jim for contributing!

 

Jim, hoping for some clarification on some of this. If I'm over the ball and I see and feel a ballflight in my mind with no other conscious thought, is that what you would consider the optimal mental state to play golf?

 

Now, take that same scenario but add one body-focused cue, such as "head centered" or "pause at the top" (two cues I've used in the past) that the player associates with a feeling. For example, I often visualize and feel a ballflight, but also think "pause at the top" as my last conscious thought before I swing. I don't consider this just a verbal phrase, it's a feeling tied to a phrase, almost a mantra of a feel. I think it's similar to Richard describing his elbow pinning thought. Is this sub-optimal because it has elements of internal focus rather than an external focus?

 

As a side note, I LOVE this phrase you mentioned (writing this as more of a note to myself!): "feel the move that creates the picture"

[Jim Waldron]

This is a really interesting thread, thanks for starting it Richard, and thank you Jim for contributing!

 

Jim, hoping for some clarification on some of this. If I'm over the ball and I see and feel a ballflight in my mind with no other conscious thought, is that what you would consider the optimal mental state to play golf?

 

Now, take that same scenario but add one body-focused cue, such as "head centered" or "pause at the top" (two cues I've used in the past) that the player associates with a feeling. For example, I often visualize and feel a ballflight, but also think "pause at the top" as my last conscious thought before I swing. I don't consider this just a verbal phrase, it's a feeling tied to a phrase, almost a mantra of a feel. I think it's similar to Richard describing his elbow pinning thought. Is this sub-optimal because it has elements of internal focus rather than an external focus?

 

As a side note, I LOVE this phrase you mentioned (writing this as more of a note to myself!): "feel the move that creates the picture"

 

In my mental game system, there is a list of proven effective ways to focus your conscious mind just before you swing and during the entire swing, called the Focal Point method. There are four caterories of focal points. The first one is called Target Picture and in my research talking to good players over the past 50 years it is the most commonly reported use of the mind when playing well.

Picturing your ball going to a precise Target is what its all about.

 

But it does not work for about 20% of golfers in my experience. Hence the three other categories which are: Self, Neutral and Peak States. Self means something to do with your body during the swing. I advocate for never using swing thoughts as a focal point since a. they are unreliable in achieving the desired outcome and b. they often tend to create a flinch which wrecks the swing and shot outcome. Swing thought meaning internal visual picture or a word or phrase. Not saying they cannot work for an individual as a Trigger, as discussed earlier in this thread, they certainly can and do work well as a Trigger, but generally only for advanced players. And even for those golfers the track record is not great - tends to work on the range and then fall apart under playing pressure.

 

So Self focal points having to do with how a body part moves should only be done in Feel Channel.

 

You can also use Auditory Channel really well for Rhythm and Tempo focal points. Balance is a very commonly reported focal point by good players - feeling the soles of your feet connection to the ground, for example.

 

Neutral focal points are for golfers with a ton of anxiety about the shot outcome: counting backwards from 100 or reciting a nonsense phrase. Distracts and occupies the conscious mind which keeps it from ruining the shot by interfering and flinching.

 

Peak States are total engagement of the mind with a positive emotional state like Courage or Confidence.

 

Internal focus (body focus) works really well - as well as external focus or even better for some golfers - but only IF you are using Feel, since in Feel you are in First Person state, ie mind/body unity, and thus much less likely to flinch. I think the external focus studies have some serious flaws in that most golfers when asked to do internal focus will use swing thoughts - exactly the point of the article that started this thread - as opposed to feels. Swing thoughts are by their very nature from second or third person state, which weakens the mind/body connection and tends to cause a flinch.

Second person meaning there are two of you "in there" - the Inner Golf Teacher using communicating the "swing thought" to the Inner Golf Student or body.

 

When you perform well at a skill, there is only one of you acting, and mind/body are unified.

 

What you are describing as steady head or pause are swing keys or cues that you are "programming in" before the swing, or "sending a message" and those have a proven track record.

[Jim Waldron]

One really important reason why I advocate so strongly for a single effective focal point that lasts seamlessly for the entire one and a half second duration of the golf swing is that it is very easy to allow your mind to "wander off" and when that happens - bad shots tend to happen.

 

With the narrow focus and 100% engagement of the mind with the focal point, there is no "space" left in the mind for negative thoughts and emotions to creep in.

[starsail85]

Im practicing with my eyes closed now and I'm guessing that this is now purely "feel channel" ?

 

I find it much easier to take this feel from a closed eye rehearsal swing into the real shot, the physical feel seems to stay with me longer than it did previously

 

 

Also I'm a real believer now in the slow motion approach that Jim advocates . Been working on a complex transition move now for a month solid 100 good reps every night , 0 bad reps . Originally started off being able to perform the correct move at about 5% speed . A week later up to 20% and now I'm pushing up to 50% . Real measurable progress being confirmed via video . If I swing full out my old move returns . It requires super discipline to stick at it but eventually I will gets the move up to full speed, where I can then grove that to the point that it performs as my new dominant habit

 

Great thread

[AMPlayer]

he said he tried to "remove myself" from the swing.

 

Through repetition, does your focus on position decrease as you get more into auto-pilot?

 

Yes. Imagine ringing a triangle dinner bell using the slowest and most direct route to the middle of each side and you'll end up with what you started with- an inside triangle. However, when the same process is sped up to your personal maximum you may, at some point, and probably will be going circular instead of linear while hitting the inside of the triangle in the same relative locations.

 

What one experiences in slow motion may not always be what is felt when speed and forces occupy the same space.

[Jim Waldron]

Im practicing with my eyes closed now and I'm guessing that this is now purely "feel channel" ?

 

I find it much easier to take this feel from a closed eye rehearsal swing into the real shot, the physical feel seems to stay with me longer than it did previously

 

 

Also I'm a real believer now in the slow motion approach that Jim advocates . Been working on a complex transition move now for a month solid 100 good reps every night , 0 bad reps . Originally started off being able to perform the correct move at about 5% speed . A week later up to 20% and now I'm pushing up to 50% . Real measurable progress being confirmed via video . If I swing full out my old move returns . It requires super discipline to stick at it but eventually I will gets the move up to full speed, where I can then grove that to the point that it performs as my new dominant habit

 

Great thread

 

Eyes closed and slow mo is not a guarantee you are in Feel. If you are seeing images or hearing your voice in your head, then not.

 

Feeling is about direct sensation, you can sense the tissue and joints moving.

[PureStrikes54]

Jim, thanks for the insight. I feel with your extensive background in martial arts you may have some insight into improving range of motion. I feel I play my best golf when my body is most flexible. It seems that range of motion more has to do with the mind feeling 'safe' in the new positions vs actually needing to stretch the fascia. Do you have any methods to say help someone be able to do the splits the fastest?

[Jim Waldron]

Jim, thanks for the insight. I feel with your extensive background in martial arts you may have some insight into improving range of motion. I feel I play my best golf when my body is most flexible. It seems that range of motion more has to do with the mind feeling 'safe' in the new positions vs actually needing to stretch the fascia. Do you have any methods to say help someone be able to do the splits the fastest?

 

Great insight on the "feeling safe" aspect. Two types of stretching - static or traditional Yoga where the stretch is held for a log time - at least five minutes for the mind to adjust. And Dynamic such as Active Isolated Stretching or Mattes method where you hold at peak stretch for just two seconds. Dynamic is best when starting a routine, and Static best at the end - less chance for injury.

 

You add foam roller and hook device trigger point therapy to those two stretches for best results.

 

And deep tissue massage like Rolfing works great for radical fascia changes.

[starsail85]

Im practicing with my eyes closed now and I'm guessing that this is now purely "feel channel" ?

 

I find it much easier to take this feel from a closed eye rehearsal swing into the real shot, the physical feel seems to stay with me longer than it did previously

 

 

Also I'm a real believer now in the slow motion approach that Jim advocates . Been working on a complex transition move now for a month solid 100 good reps every night , 0 bad reps . Originally started off being able to perform the correct move at about 5% speed . A week later up to 20% and now I'm pushing up to 50% . Real measurable progress being confirmed via video . If I swing full out my old move returns . It requires super discipline to stick at it but eventually I will gets the move up to full speed, where I can then grove that to the point that it performs as my new dominant habit

 

Great thread

 

Eyes closed and slow mo is not a guarantee you are in Feel. If you are seeing images or hearing your voice in your head, then not.

 

Feeling is about direct sensation, you can sense the tissue and joints moving.

 

I've definitely noticed on occasion I can see my hands and arms moving on the black canvas of my minds eye . I was kind of aware that this was wrong but the image seemed to disappear when i focussed on the physical sensations of my body

 

The feel was the left wrist flattening somewhere in the takeaway and then some intangible feel of the arms and wrists doing something in mid backswing .

 

Transition feel is felt mainly in the right foot

 

Main challenge is trying to get a feel for the 'whole' swing rather than segments

[Jim Waldron]

Im practicing with my eyes closed now and I'm guessing that this is now purely "feel channel" ?

 

I find it much easier to take this feel from a closed eye rehearsal swing into the real shot, the physical feel seems to stay with me longer than it did previously

 

 

Also I'm a real believer now in the slow motion approach that Jim advocates . Been working on a complex transition move now for a month solid 100 good reps every night , 0 bad reps . Originally started off being able to perform the correct move at about 5% speed . A week later up to 20% and now I'm pushing up to 50% . Real measurable progress being confirmed via video . If I swing full out my old move returns . It requires super discipline to stick at it but eventually I will gets the move up to full speed, where I can then grove that to the point that it performs as my new dominant habit

 

Great thread

 

Eyes closed and slow mo is not a guarantee you are in Feel. If you are seeing images or hearing your voice in your head, then not.

 

Feeling is about direct sensation, you can sense the tissue and joints moving.

 

I've definitely noticed on occasion I can see my hands and arms moving on the black canvas of my minds eye . I was kind of aware that this was wrong but the image seemed to disappear when i focussed on the physical sensations of my body

 

The feel was the left wrist flattening somewhere in the takeaway and then some intangible feel of the arms and wrists doing something in mid backswing .

 

Transition feel is felt mainly in the right foot

 

Main challenge is trying to get a feel for the 'whole' swing rather than segments

 

I agree - the final goal is to achieve a clear awareness in Feel for the "whole" swing motion without any focus on individual body parts. You play the golf course with a holistic athletic motion. When you play "golf swing" your mind tends to be frozen on individual body parts, which usually leads to flinching and bad golf shots. When you play "golf" - you trust your whole swing motion to produce the shot outcome you want.

 

In my system of Practice, you have two types of slow motion or less than normal speed training: Linking and Blending. Linking means working on the Six Swing Segments, pausing at the end of each Segment and then looking in the mirror to see if you achieved the proper Form. Blending there is no pausing - just one seamless motion from start to finish. You should always end your session with some swings devoted to Blending, so you learn to acquire a clear feel memory for what that holistic motion feels like.

[starsail85]

Im practicing with my eyes closed now and I'm guessing that this is now purely "feel channel" ?

 

I find it much easier to take this feel from a closed eye rehearsal swing into the real shot, the physical feel seems to stay with me longer than it did previously

 

 

Also I'm a real believer now in the slow motion approach that Jim advocates . Been working on a complex transition move now for a month solid 100 good reps every night , 0 bad reps . Originally started off being able to perform the correct move at about 5% speed . A week later up to 20% and now I'm pushing up to 50% . Real measurable progress being confirmed via video . If I swing full out my old move returns . It requires super discipline to stick at it but eventually I will gets the move up to full speed, where I can then grove that to the point that it performs as my new dominant habit

 

Great thread

 

Eyes closed and slow mo is not a guarantee you are in Feel. If you are seeing images or hearing your voice in your head, then not.

 

Feeling is about direct sensation, you can sense the tissue and joints moving.

 

I've definitely noticed on occasion I can see my hands and arms moving on the black canvas of my minds eye . I was kind of aware that this was wrong but the image seemed to disappear when i focussed on the physical sensations of my body

 

The feel was the left wrist flattening somewhere in the takeaway and then some intangible feel of the arms and wrists doing something in mid backswing .

 

Transition feel is felt mainly in the right foot

 

Main challenge is trying to get a feel for the 'whole' swing rather than segments

 

I agree - the final goal is to achieve a clear awareness in Feel for the "whole" swing motion without any focus on individual body parts. You play the golf course with a holistic athletic motion. When you play "golf swing" your mind tends to be frozen on individual body parts, which usually leads to flinching and bad golf shots. When you play "golf" - you trust your whole swing motion to produce the shot outcome you want.

 

In my system of Practice, you have two types of slow motion or less than normal speed training: Linking and Blending. Linking means working on the Six Swing Segments, pausing at the end of each Segment and then looking in the mirror to see if you achieved the proper Form. Blending there is no pausing - just one seamless motion from start to finish. You should always end your session with some swings devoted to Blending, so you learn to acquire a clear feel memory for what that holistic motion feels like.

 

Makes a ton of sense . The linking ritual seems a lot easier, as you have the time to refresh your attention and change your feel focus to the body part that you pay attention to with each segment . With the blended it seems like you almost run out of time to change your awareness even at slow speeds

 

I guess this is a reason you should only change one thing at a time

[wmblake2000]

Wow, what a discussion. Pretty heady stuff for a golf forum!

 

I would 100% agree with Jim... "Possible to be in a state of consciousness of zero reaction but just observation" I understand the points made about perception being active. We certainly do actively frame/filter/understand through active process of interjecting our perspective into things. But this is not the whole story. One can learn to observe without doing this and directly connect to experience without cognitive (or emotional) bias.

[Jim Waldron]

Wow, what a discussion. Pretty heady stuff for a golf forum!

 

I would 100% agree with Jim... "Possible to be in a state of consciousness of zero reaction but just observation" I understand the points made about perception being active. We certainly do actively frame/filter/understand through active process of interjecting our perspective into things. But this is not the whole story. One can learn to observe without doing this and directly connect to experience without cognitive (or emotional) bias.

 

Yes, and one of the reasons that a small minority of players "get golf" fairly quickly and easily is that they are naturally skilled in proprioception. They can sense where their body parts are directly/concretely without any "filter" from thought, and through their hands, they can sense what the club is doing.

 

That skill is WAY more important to learning how to play good golf than 90% of the stuff that is discussed on this board on a daily basis, you know, all the "externally rotate the upper arm 10 degrees" kind of stuff.

[Dan Drake]

 

Its funny because his answer almost mirrored what Rotella said when asked about his response to the reporter. He said in Jack's mind that missed 5' putt never occurred.

 

 

This mirrors exactly what Joe Hallett told us in our Level 2 PGM seminars.

 

We asked him about coaching Stacey Lewis and one of the quick snippets he gave us was exactly this.

 

When she would hit a "Missed" shot, she would say to him "Disregard that" or "Don't say anything" or "Nope" or whatever. The implication was that it never happened. Don't even comment on it, because there is nothing to comment on. I don't care what you thought I did wrong to cause that shot, because there was no shot to begin with.

 

Sure, he coached her on the "normal" shots, gave her feedback on her swing, etc.

 

But the misses? They never even happened.

 

Great Thread Richard!

[Jim Waldron]

Wow, what a discussion. Pretty heady stuff for a golf forum!

 

I would 100% agree with Jim... "Possible to be in a state of consciousness of zero reaction but just observation" I understand the points made about perception being active. We certainly do actively frame/filter/understand through active process of interjecting our perspective into things. But this is not the whole story. One can learn to observe without doing this and directly connect to experience without cognitive (or emotional) bias.

 

When I explain that exercise, I explicitly state to my students "Do not try to 'do anything mechanically' and do not try to stop a 'flaw' from happening. Just swing however your body wants to do it but keep your mind in Feel channel on body part X".

 

In 20 years of doing that exercise, I have only had a handful of students who were able to do that in the first three swings. Part of the reason is the dysfunctional culture of golf that almost every golfer accepts without question, which is that you are supposed to "do something" with your conscious mind that involves trying to change your golf swing mid-motion.

 

What happens when they can actually achieve that focused but neutral state is that they start to notice things happening in terms of their real body mechanics that they had no idea about prior to the exercise, or at best, only second-hand theoretical knowledge about. And that is when the light bulbs start going off.

 

It is one thing when your teacher tells you that you are releasing early, or seeing it on video, but when you can directly experience it happening in real time - that Awareness creates a "space" that allows for Deep Insight to happen, and that means you can quickly learn how to stop doing that flaw.

[wmblake2000]

Wow, what a discussion. Pretty heady stuff for a golf forum!

 

I would 100% agree with Jim... "Possible to be in a state of consciousness of zero reaction but just observation" I understand the points made about perception being active. We certainly do actively frame/filter/understand through active process of interjecting our perspective into things. But this is not the whole story. One can learn to observe without doing this and directly connect to experience without cognitive (or emotional) bias.

 

When I explain that exercise, I explicitly state to my students "Do not try to 'do anything mechanically' and do not try to stop a 'flaw' from happening. Just swing however your body wants to do it but keep your mind in Feel channel on body part X".

 

In 20 years of doing that exercise, I have only had a handful of students who were able to do that in the first three swings. Part of the reason is the dysfunctional culture of golf that almost every golfer accepts without question, which is that you are supposed to "do something" with your conscious mind that involves trying to change your golf swing mid-motion.

 

What happens when they can actually achieve that focused but neutral state is that they start to notice things happening in terms of their real body mechanics that they had no idea about prior to the exercise, or at best, only second-hand theoretical knowledge about. And that is when the light bulbs start going off.

 

It is one thing when your teacher tells you that you are releasing early, or seeing it on video, but when you can directly experience it happening in real time - that Awareness creates a "space" that allows for Deep Insight to happen, and that means you can quickly learn how to stop doing that flaw.

 

I can eliminate cognitive intermediation. But there is something pretty subtle still running interference... call it the existing map of expectations. It's like the mind/body has cut a groove in physical awareness and has a narrow focus that clouds seeing 'the rest of the story'. I may have to do a lot of slow motion of a new motion to be able to feel it even slightly in a swing. My awareness can lag quite a while!

 

But when it does click, change comes pretty immediately and easily. This is what I think you call Deep Insight. It's like a whole new map is created - and for me, it also includes a new cognitive map - it's holisitic. I need what I believe to align or there will be conflict and backsliding.

 

This isn't limited to golf. It describes where human beings everywhere have reached, and where our education system, media and business institutes - being made of people - operate.

[Jim Waldron]

Wow, what a discussion. Pretty heady stuff for a golf forum!

 

I would 100% agree with Jim... "Possible to be in a state of consciousness of zero reaction but just observation" I understand the points made about perception being active. We certainly do actively frame/filter/understand through active process of interjecting our perspective into things. But this is not the whole story. One can learn to observe without doing this and directly connect to experience without cognitive (or emotional) bias.

 

When I explain that exercise, I explicitly state to my students "Do not try to 'do anything mechanically' and do not try to stop a 'flaw' from happening. Just swing however your body wants to do it but keep your mind in Feel channel on body part X".

 

In 20 years of doing that exercise, I have only had a handful of students who were able to do that in the first three swings. Part of the reason is the dysfunctional culture of golf that almost every golfer accepts without question, which is that you are supposed to "do something" with your conscious mind that involves trying to change your golf swing mid-motion.

 

What happens when they can actually achieve that focused but neutral state is that they start to notice things happening in terms of their real body mechanics that they had no idea about prior to the exercise, or at best, only second-hand theoretical knowledge about. And that is when the light bulbs start going off.

 

It is one thing when your teacher tells you that you are releasing early, or seeing it on video, but when you can directly experience it happening in real time - that Awareness creates a "space" that allows for Deep Insight to happen, and that means you can quickly learn how to stop doing that flaw.

 

I can eliminate cognitive intermediation. But there is something pretty subtle still running interference... call it the existing map of expectations. It's like the mind/body has cut a groove in physical awareness and has a narrow focus that clouds seeing 'the rest of the story'. I may have to do a lot of slow motion of a new motion to be able to feel it even slightly in a swing. My awareness can lag quite a while!

 

But when it does click, change comes pretty immediately and easily. This is what I think you call Deep Insight. It's like a whole new map is created - and for me, it also includes a new cognitive map - it's holisitic. I need what I believe to align or there will be conflict and backsliding.

 

This isn't limited to golf. It describes where human beings everywhere have reached, and where our education system, media and business institutes - being made of people - operate.

 

 

I agree on the aligning the belief with the awareness/reality. Sometimes called in psychotherapy "giving permission".

 

What I call attaining congruency between your conscious intellectual mind Swing Concept with your subconscious mind Swing Map. That is when things really start to "click"! When the two are congruent, it really frees up your swing motion because you can now fully trust it. When not congruent, there is always a bit of doubt that weakens the mind/body connection and disrupts your swing in some way, ie a flinch.

[Silky]

Wow, what a discussion. Pretty heady stuff for a golf forum!

 

I would 100% agree with Jim... "Possible to be in a state of consciousness of zero reaction but just observation" I understand the points made about perception being active. We certainly do actively frame/filter/understand through active process of interjecting our perspective into things. But this is not the whole story. One can learn to observe without doing this and directly connect to experience without cognitive (or emotional) bias.

 

When I explain that exercise, I explicitly state to my students "Do not try to 'do anything mechanically' and do not try to stop a 'flaw' from happening. Just swing however your body wants to do it but keep your mind in Feel channel on body part X".

 

In 20 years of doing that exercise, I have only had a handful of students who were able to do that in the first three swings. Part of the reason is the dysfunctional culture of golf that almost every golfer accepts without question, which is that you are supposed to "do something" with your conscious mind that involves trying to change your golf swing mid-motion.

 

What happens when they can actually achieve that focused but neutral state is that they start to notice things happening in terms of their real body mechanics that they had no idea about prior to the exercise, or at best, only second-hand theoretical knowledge about. And that is when the light bulbs start going off.

 

It is one thing when your teacher tells you that you are releasing early, or seeing it on video, but when you can directly experience it happening in real time - that Awareness creates a "space" that allows for Deep Insight to happen, and that means you can quickly learn how to stop doing that flaw.

 

I can eliminate cognitive intermediation. But there is something pretty subtle still running interference... call it the existing map of expectations. It's like the mind/body has cut a groove in physical awareness and has a narrow focus that clouds seeing 'the rest of the story'. I may have to do a lot of slow motion of a new motion to be able to feel it even slightly in a swing. My awareness can lag quite a while!

 

But when it does click, change comes pretty immediately and easily. This is what I think you call Deep Insight. It's like a whole new map is created - and for me, it also includes a new cognitive map - it's holisitic. I need what I believe to align or there will be conflict and backsliding.

 

This isn't limited to golf. It describes where human beings everywhere have reached, and where our education system, media and business institutes - being made of people - operate.

 

 

I agree on the aligning the belief with the awareness/reality. Sometimes called in psychotherapy "giving permission".

 

What I call attaining congruency between your conscious intellectual mind Swing Concept with your subconscious mind Swing Map. That is when things really start to "click"! When the two are congruent, it really frees up your swing motion because you can now fully trust it. When not congruent, there is always a bit of doubt that weakens the mind/body connection and disrupts your swing in some way, ie a flinch.

 

Congruence of Swing Concept and Swing Map to build trust, .. how true? I struggle with convincing myself, my SM, on the passive upper body during transition for quite sometime. It is more difficult to learn not to do something than doing something. What clicks for me is the swing thought that during transition, the lower body drives (or propel) the upper body. This personal Deep Insight, I guess, provide a robust trust linkage and congruence between my conscious and subconscious mind.

 

From the discussions here, I came to the realization that Swing Concept <-> Swing Map <-> Swing Feedback are basic in learning and playing golf, hee haw.

[ofortuna]

I think the concepts about how to make a swing change by using feel channel and letting go of the conscious mind when executing a swing (ie not telling body parts to do things consciously) is revolutionary. You just don't see people analyzing the process of learning at this level every day. But this assumes that someone knows enough about their swing to know that he wants to go from point A to point B.

 

Now, if someone doesn't know what they're "doing wrong", the instructor has to first explain to the golfer that he's at point A, then comes the even more difficult task of describing the unimaginable point B that the golfer may have never experienced before. How is this done? By meticulous communication, telling body parts what to do, what not to do, get in this position, not in that position, visualizing where the body/club is in space, etc... and the golfer has to remember it all. This takes a lot of conscious thought. Once he understand point A and point B, he is then instructed to forget all the analysis and commanding body parts that he just went through the substantial effort to remember/understand. In fact, everything that he worked so hard to put into his brain, he is told, is now poison. Say what?

 

It's any wonder anyone ever makes a swing change successfully!