Should bunkers be raked?

[ChillyDipper]

I think if more courses didn't have rakes, then the average player would improve his skill. After all, Seve learned to play in sand on the beach, and I doubt that was raked. He turned out ok.

[sphna12d]

If you want penal bunkers then do it like they do it for European Links courses and introduce pot bunkers where you might be forced to lay out sideways or backwards. Non raking seems very random and USGAish to me.

[greengolfer54]

With all of the rules changes currently being debated, at work today, we discussed whether or not bunkers should be raked. Since they are technically supposed to be punitive, it seems like they should be left natural (including debris, footprints, etc.). The point was made that leaving them natural would likely hurt pace of play, but it would also keep players from intentionally playing for bunkers when other options seemed less appealing. So, what say you?

I've never thought about this question...but now that I do, it doesn't seem like a horrible idea to just not rake bunkers since like you said it is considered a "hazard"

[nsxguy]

With all of the rules changes currently being debated, at work today, we discussed whether or not bunkers should be raked. Since they are technically supposed to be punitive, it seems like they should be left natural (including debris, footprints, etc.). The point was made that leaving them natural would likely hurt pace of play, but it would also keep players from intentionally playing for bunkers when other options seemed less appealing. So, what say you?

I've never thought about this question...but now that I do, it doesn't seem like a horrible idea to just not rake bunkers since like you said it is considered a "hazard"

 

Perhaps all hazards are not created equal ? Actually there's no "perhaps" about it. It's clearly a less hazardous hazard.

 

In the water costs you at least 1 shot and often 2 as 95%(+/-) of the time you can't even hit out of the water hazard.

 

In a sand bunker you actually CAN hit out of it. So while it's less of a hazard, isn't that enough ?

 

And while the pros have become so adept at it, the average single digit handicapper (IMO) would still rather be in difficult rough than in a bunker (ANY bunker). I know I would,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

Players following other players should have as close to the exact same conditions as possible. RAKE the bunkers.

[KevCarter]

With all of the rules changes currently being debated, at work today, we discussed whether or not bunkers should be raked. Since they are technically supposed to be punitive, it seems like they should be left natural (including debris, footprints, etc.). The point was made that leaving them natural would likely hurt pace of play, but it would also keep players from intentionally playing for bunkers when other options seemed less appealing. So, what say you?

I've never thought about this question...but now that I do, it doesn't seem like a horrible idea to just not rake bunkers since like you said it is considered a "hazard"

 

Perhaps all hazards are not created equal ? Actually there's no "perhaps" about it. It's clearly a less hazardous hazard ?

 

In the water costs you at least 1 shot and often 2 as 95%(+/-) of the time you can't even hit out of the water hazard.

 

In a sand bunker you actually CAN hit out of it. So while it's less of a hazard, isn't that enough ?

 

And while the pros have become so adept at it, the average single digit handicapper (IMO) would still rather be in difficult rough than in a bunker (ANY bunker). I know I would,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

Players following other players should have as close to the exact same conditions as possible. RAKE the bunkers.

 

While early in the thread I posted the definitions of bunkers and hazards, I agree with your post 100%.

 

My opinion.

 

Pot or deep bunkers could be rendered completely unplayable early in the round. Especially, considering those idiots posting they would do it on purpose to hurt those behind them. A bunker could be turned into a hazard that stroke and distance is the only way out. I don't believe that is what they were designed for. In my opinion, 1/2 to 1 stroke suffices, and if you hit a great shot, more power to you. I enjoy watching the best players get it up and down from difficult positions...

[AdamSecrest]

Does anyone know when sand bunkers were first described as a hazard in the rules? Perhaps at that time bunkers were really more of a "hazard" like a water hazard due to equipment and known technique. And describing sand bunkers as hazards is kind of like continuing to call the club a fairway wood even though it's not made of wood anymore?

[jslane57]

Does anyone know when sand bunkers were first described as a hazard in the rules? Perhaps at that time bunkers were really more of a "hazard" like a water hazard due to equipment and known technique. And describing sand bunkers as hazards is kind of like continuing to call the club a fairway wood even though it's not made of wood anymore?

My hunch is that is has to do with grounding the club...

[2putttom]

I think if more courses didn't have rakes, then the average player would improve his skill. After all, Seve learned to play in sand on the beach, and I doubt that was raked. He turned out ok.

and he would be the first one to b**** to the tournament committee if green side bunkers were not raked and he was in one

[AdamSecrest]

Does anyone know when sand bunkers were first described as a hazard in the rules? Perhaps at that time bunkers were really more of a "hazard" like a water hazard due to equipment and known technique. And describing sand bunkers as hazards is kind of like continuing to call the club a fairway wood even though it's not made of wood anymore?

My hunch is that is has to do with grounding the club...

 

Well that makes a lot of sense. So there is continuity in the terminology describing the rules about playing from a bunker and from a water hazard.

[Guia]

Bunkers must be raked! It is not fair for one golfer to get a good playable lie, and leave a mess for the next person in the bunker...............and on, and on, and on.

[finleysg]

Does anyone know when sand bunkers were first described as a hazard in the rules? Perhaps at that time bunkers were really more of a "hazard" like a water hazard due to equipment and known technique. And describing sand bunkers as hazards is kind of like continuing to call the club a fairway wood even though it's not made of wood anymore?

My hunch is that is has to do with grounding the club...

 

The notion of not grounding dates back to 1858. Bunkers weren't defined in the rules until 1933. According to this, anyway: http://www.ruleshistory.com/hazards.html

 

I know that bunkers were not raked in the early part of the 20th century. In the US Open that Francis Ouimet won, Harry Vardon lost a shot at 17 (I think) by hitting it into a muddy, un-manicured bunker.

[jslane57]

Bunkers must be raked! It is not fair for one golfer to get a good playable lie, and leave a mess for the next person in the bunker...............and on, and on, and on.

Divots don't get replaced in the middle of the fairway!

[Guia]

No, but divots are sanded and seeded in after they are made. Don't get me wrong, I like just about everyone think we should be allowed to take a drop from divot's.

 

Golf is a game that everyone should have an even playing field. Not raking the bunker makes an unfair advantage for those following. Learning to hit off a beach in practice in fine, but during match it is actual play, not practice.

[fredstar]

I think if more courses didn't have rakes, then the average player would improve his skill. After all, Seve learned to play in sand on the beach, and I doubt that was raked. He turned out ok.

 

I bet he pulled his ball out of a 3 inch deep footprint for a preferred lie

[ray9898]

 

 

You're not thinking straight. I know you're smart. I can tell. A percentage greater than 50 does not show that it's "not harder than not"

 

The statistics clearly state that getting up and down out of a bunker is harder than getting up and down from anywhere not in a bunker. THAT is undeniable.

 

And while it is also undeniably true that getting up and down from a bunker CAN be easier than the rough in certain instances, it simply is not the norm.

 

Exactly. It is the most penalizing result on shots that miss the green even for the best in the world.

[ZAP]

No rakes

Stop cutting the grass

Release ravenous wolves randomly every 15 minutes.

[Doyle Hargraves]

PGA tour courses shouldn't have bunkers with sand. They should be filled with long, gnarly grass. Make them hazards again, not something players aim for.

[shotmark]

Raking bunkers hasn't always been standard practice. Prior to bunkers being raked on a regular basis the sand used to get very compacted so footprints weren't particularly an issue. In a way this meant everyone had - literally - a level playing field.

 

Nowadays you can be unlucky and land in an unraked footprint or often even worse a badly raked bunker, making landing in bunkers more of a lottery.

 

I therefore would be behind not raking bunkers as I feel this would penalise EVERYONE landing in them rather than just those unfortunate enough to land in a previous players mess. It would also massively cut down on maintenance costs.

[hollabachgt]

Golf is a game that everyone should have an even playing field.

 

The only point on the field of play that anyone should expect equity of condition is on the putting green. When initially played on common ground the games founders were rather clear upon the notion of playing the ball as one finds it, regardless of hoof prints and loose bones.

 

If you don't like the way your ball lie, you can always move it, but the initial intent is to simply play it as it is, regardless of condition.

 

Once upon a time players would rarely dare to take on a bunker for fear of a horrendous lie. They would plot their way around the course strategicly. Why did we allow that faset of play to change?

 

[shotmark]

No rakes

Stop cutting the grass

Release ravenous wolves randomly every 15 minutes.

 

Stop cutting the grass? Ravenous sheep would be better!

[2putttom]

Does anyone know when sand bunkers were first described as a hazard in the rules? Perhaps at that time bunkers were really more of a "hazard" like a water hazard due to equipment and known technique. And describing sand bunkers as hazards is kind of like continuing to call the club a fairway wood even though it's not made of wood anymore?

Early years of golf didn't involve a lot of bunkering , as the innovation of course design and builders moved into the mid twentieth century bunkering became a prominent feature in design.

[xgolfx]

Pine Valley does not have a rake on the course. There is brown sand, grey sand, sand with stones ,and grass with sand. If Pine Valley is ranked in the top 3 in every survey of the top 100 in the USA , does this give strength to the argument?

 

The Bear Club, in Florida, is Jack Nicklaus' pride and joy. There is no sand in the bunkers. Crushed sea shells are smoothed with wire rakes. In my opinion, bunker shots are easier because there are no buried lies and the ball rolls down to the level area of the bunker. Drainage is greatly improved over sand . There is no erosion. or sand flying onto the green.

 

Tournament bunkers have PGA. Specifications. Sand is frequently removed from bunkers on a country club site for an event. The main desire is to keep the bunkers uniformly consistent . Majors have a greens keeper with a rake assigned to each hole to assure proper technique .

 

My point is the difference in the venue .

Playing on a muni course where "rake and roll" is a tournament rule due to conditions is entirely different than Pine Valley or a PGA tournament. The foreign tour players are wonderful in bunkers because they play courses that are not as groomed as the USA

 

 

CHARLEY PENNA

[BlackDiamondPar5]

Pine Valley does not have a rake on the course. There is brown sand, grey sand, sand with stones ,and grass with sand. If Pine Valley is ranked in the top 3 in every survey of the top 100 in the USA , does this give strength to the argument?

 

The Bear Club, in Florida, is Jack Nicklaus' pride and joy. There is no sand in the bunkers. Crushed sea shells are smoothed with wire rakes. In my opinion, bunker shots are easier because there are no buried lies and the ball rolls down to the level area of the bunker. Drainage is greatly improved over sand . There is no erosion. or sand flying onto the green.

 

Tournament bunkers have PGA. Specifications. Sand is frequently removed from bunkers on a country club site for an event. The main desire is to keep the bunkers uniformly consistent . Majors have a greens keeper with a rake assigned to each hole to assure proper technique .

 

My point is the difference in the venue .

Playing on a muni course where "rake and roll" is a tournament rule due to conditions is entirely different than Pine Valley or a PGA tournament. The foreign tour players are wonderful in bunkers because they play courses that are not as groomed as the USA

 

 

CHARLEY PENNA

What is "rake and roll?"

We do "lift, rake and place' on my home course due to poor bunker conditions.

[slocagolfer]

Should greens be mowed? FFS

 

A little trimming just above the furrow - but unmowed is nice and retro, I'd call it an Old Tom Morris look but that would be awkward.

 

I don't think you're talking about golf here.

[Bingo1976]

Golf is a game that everyone should have an even playing field.

 

The only point on the field of play that anyone should expect equity of condition is on the putting green. When initially played on common ground the games founders were rather clear upon the notion of playing the ball as one finds it, regardless of hoof prints and loose bones.

 

If you don't like the way your ball lie, you can always move it, but the initial intent is to simply play it as it is, regardless of condition.

 

Once upon a time players would rarely dare to take on a bunker for fear of a horrendous lie. They would plot their way around the course strategicly. Why did we allow that faset of play to change?

 

I think they follow that line of thought in Asia - I have yet to see a bunker be raked unless we berate them loudly.

[Guia]

I see you are in Asia. I also lived there (Thailand, Philippines, Japan) and there were rakes.

[Petunia Sprinkle]

Bunkers aren't really natural. And, even the few actually dug out by sheep should probably come under the 'burrowing animal' rule. Sorry, Charlie.

[Bingo1976]

I see you are in Asia. I also lived there (Thailand, Philippines, Japan) and there were rakes.

 

Brand new, never been used rakes.....

 

(Unless of course you have a caddy).

 

We once say a guy take 3 to get out of a greenside bunker (literally walked all over it) and just sauntered off, and then looked very confused why 4 people on the tee box were shouting at him....

[Guia]

I guess the course could have saved some money buy not buying rakes.

[redandwhiteandblue]

Yeah we should probably continue to rake them, this game is hard enough