Scratch versus Top-20 in the World Pro

[Obee]

My guess is this was Phil given the location and assuming the ranking is between #11-20 (otherwise you would've said top ten).

 

If it was Phil I'd say the scratch might have a slightly better chance of winning given how erratic Phil can be at times. Although I still think Phil wins 90% of the time

 

I was in the Whisper Rock locker room last year. Phil was listed as +8.

 

Index of +5.8ish = course handicap of +8 on a difficult, high slope golf course. :-)

I know we've had threads on this before but it still seems odd to know a plus "gives more shots back" on a harder, higher slope, course. Us hacks get a higher cap, the pluses go the other way.

 

When you think about it, it makes complete sense, when playing against someone where you are handicapping. In fact, the whole slope system was devised as a result of the fact that the tougher a golf course is, the more the lower handicapper will dominate. Before slope, mid and high 'cap players had virtually no chance to beat a plus 'cap or pro on a difficult, long course with lots of trouble and hazards/OB.

 

 

[Forged4ever]

Something similar to this scenario actually came up a few weeks ago on the CBS Broadcast. McCord was saying he plays money games with Jon Rahm. He said Rahm gives him 6 strokes. Nantz tried to call him out on it, but McCord said Rahm plays to a +3, and he plays to a -3 and Rahm plays from the back, McCord from the forward tees. No mention as to who won these games.

 

 

No way. Rahm is much better than +3 and McCord is much better than -3. I've been in the Whisper Rock locker room where they post the handicap list. McCord was a plus handicap last year (+2 or 3 if I remember).

My Bud Played with McCord and he's a +1.5 and he had to give him 3 strokes and this was in January so I don't know what his cap was but it wasn't Plus cuz my Bud is not an idiot, lmao

 

Have a great week RK :)

 

My Best,

RP

[Forged4ever]

My guess is this was Phil given the location and assuming the ranking is between #11-20 (otherwise you would've said top ten).

 

If it was Phil I'd say the scratch might have a slightly better chance of winning given how erratic Phil can be at times. Although I still think Phil wins 90% of the time

 

I was in the Whisper Rock locker room last year. Phil was listed as +8.

 

Index of +5.8ish = course handicap of +8 on a difficult, high slope golf course. :-)

I know we've had threads on this before but it still seems odd to know a plus "gives more shots back" on a harder, higher slope, course. Us hacks get a higher cap, the pluses go the other way.

Otheriwse a high single/mid/high cap would never beat a Plus at say Oakmont, or any hard track-

 

Unless it's me sitting here visualizing Playing you guys??

 

Yesterday I shut Obes down on 16 and last night I left Isaac in tears on 18 when I ran a windy left to right 12'er for the win!!!!

 

I'm texting you from the shack as I'm 1 up on Brian(b.helts) after 10~

 

HaHa, you guys suck???

 

All the Best,

Richard

[Obee]

My guess is this was Phil given the location and assuming the ranking is between #11-20 (otherwise you would've said top ten).

 

If it was Phil I'd say the scratch might have a slightly better chance of winning given how erratic Phil can be at times. Although I still think Phil wins 90% of the time

 

I was in the Whisper Rock locker room last year. Phil was listed as +8.

 

Index of +5.8ish = course handicap of +8 on a difficult, high slope golf course. :-)

I know we've had threads on this before but it still seems odd to know a plus "gives more shots back" on a harder, higher slope, course. Us hacks get a higher cap, the pluses go the other way.

Otheriwse a high single/mid/high cap would never beat a Plus at say Oakmont, or any hard track-

 

Unless it's me sitting here visualizing Playing you guys

 

Yesterday I shut Obes down on 16 and last night I left Isaac in tears on 18 when I ran a windy left to right 12'er for the win!!!!

 

I'm texting you from the shack as I'm 1 up on Brian(b.helts) after 10~

 

HaHa, you guys suck

 

All the Best,

Richard

 

LOVE IT, Richard!!!

[Forged4ever]

I was in the Whisper Rock locker room last year. Phil was listed as +8.

 

Index of +5.8ish = course handicap of +8 on a difficult, high slope golf course. :-)

I know we've had threads on this before but it still seems odd to know a plus "gives more shots back" on a harder, higher slope, course. Us hacks get a higher cap, the pluses go the other way.

Otheriwse a high single/mid/high cap would never beat a Plus at say Oakmont, or any hard track-

 

Unless it's me sitting here visualizing Playing you guys��

 

Yesterday I shut Obes down on 16 and last night I left Isaac in tears on 18 when I ran a windy left to right 12'er for the win!!!!

 

I'm texting you from the shack as I'm 1 up on Brian(b.helts) after 10~

 

HaHa, you guys suck���

 

All the Best,

Richard

 

LOVE IT, Richard!!!

I'm Elite in my own warped delusional madicated mind, lmao

 

Have a great week Bro?

 

Always,

Richard

[Shilgy]

 

 

I'm Elite in my own warped delusional madicated mind, lmao

 

Have a great week Bro?

 

Always,

Richard

Sure, you can beat those guys but even your delusional medicated mind cannot possibly see you defeating a wrx long hitting 4 capper. :)

[Guia]

I guess it depends on how strong of a game the scratch player has. If his HC is from a very difficult course, he might have a chance. But on average I would think scratch could win 1 out of 5 times.

[Bingo1976]

I guess it depends on how strong of a game the scratch player has. If his HC is from a very difficult course, he might have a chance. But on average I would think scratch could win 1 out of 5 times.

 

Maybe I misunderstand how the handicap system works, but doesn't the difficulty of the course get taken into account with the slope etc. Lets say I can shoot 75 on the most average of average tracks from a slope rating, which lets say gives me a scratch handicap of 0.0.

 

If I go and join a club that is easier, I will be shooting 72 (for example), but the slope will reflect this and my handicap will remain at 0.0. Likewise, if I join Kiawah or Oakmont, won't my scores go up to 78, but again, the slope would keep me at 0.0

 

The only time you can get a disparity is where the players game does not align to the slope - so for example, I used to play my old club off the blacks, which took a lot of the fairway trouble out of play, and whilst it meant I was hitting longer approaches, it meant I was at worst making bogey. When I moved forward a tee or two, it brought the trouble into play, and i would score no better, or even worse.

 

I do get that you have a 'travelling' scratch vs club scratch, but I see this more as the particular course suiting the individuals game rather than a deficiency in the handicap system.

[Golfjack]

At a skilled golfer level like a scratch player, it's much harder for a pro to give them strokes, especially on a home course. A scratch guy will find ways to make pars, even on a longer course. As long as he's not a scratch from the white tees and a short hitter, he will have a decent chance. Of course, the pro could go on a birdie binge in ways that no scratch player ever can and just blow them out of the water, but it's not something that can be done always, especially on an unfamiliar course without their normal trusty caddie. Bit surprised that Phil played it 4 times and shot pretty average scores for him. Must be a really tough course!

[Obee]

At a skilled golfer level like a scratch player, it's much harder for a pro to give them strokes, especially on a home course. A scratch guy will find ways to make pars, even on a longer course. As long as he's not a scratch from the white tees and a short hitter, he will have a decent chance. Of course, the pro could go on a birdie binge in ways that no scratch player ever can and just blow them out of the water, but it's not something that can be done always, especially on an unfamiliar course without their normal trusty caddie. Bit surprised that Phil played it 4 times and shot pretty average scores for him. Must be a really tough course!

 

It's a very tough course this time of year, especially. The greens are usually quite firm and it's a second shot golf course. Trouble lurks around every green! :-)

[Roadking2003]

I guess it depends on how strong of a game the scratch player has. If his HC is from a very difficult course, he might have a chance. But on average I would think scratch could win 1 out of 5 times.

 

All scratch players have a strong game and it doesn't matter how difficult his home course is. A scratch on one course should be a scratch on any course other than course familiarity.

[Guia]

Not true.

[golfandfishing]

You guys are talking courses saying a scratch is a scratch. RP, Obie, et al are talking about environment and atmosphere. Playing for serious dough or in a big boy event makes a lot scratch handicaps piss down their leg.

 

[Forged4ever]

I guess it depends on how strong of a game the scratch player has. If his HC is from a very difficult course, he might have a chance. But on average I would think scratch could win 1 out of 5 times.

 

All scratch players have a strong game and it doesn't matter how difficult his home course is. A scratch on one course should be a scratch on any course other than course familiarity.

Having Played with and against a ton of "scratch/Plus's," a couple of words that I try never to use are "all" and "none" as there are exceptions to every rule and in every walk of life.

 

That being said, my first match in the WPa Inter Club MP Championship in 2012 was against a .5~, basically a scratch(I was at +2.8) and 4-time club Champion from a smaller club in Pittsburgh. I am not going to mention it by name because while it is a very nice smaller club, because the Best description that I can think of is "quaint." It is a beautiful little track(6500+ BoBs) and the Players are what I and others call "club scratches/pluses)." We Played at Oakmont from 7150yds+.

 

I shut him down on 12 and while it was match play, with 3 conceded putts of 5-7', he had a 42 on the front. Course familiarity had nothing to do with it Bro-

 

He was overwhelmed with the track and he was overwhelmed with the competition.

 

Saying that ALL Scratches/Pluses can Play to their cap anywhere while theoretically true according to the cap system, is just not an accurate statement.

 

That's like saying that ALL starting DI LBers can Play. Theoretically, yes, a starting DI LBer on a full boat should be able to Play to a certain level of competence however that is just not the case as many cannot step up against a NFL caliber OL and get the job done. They SHOULD be able to. They are 6'2", 245lbs, can fly like the wind and hit like a runaway truck on the practice field, but on game day, in opponent's stadium against a stud, they're what we called "ghosts," because they're invisible and no one sees em, much less feels em, lol

 

"Should" is the critical word here because yes, theoretically a scratch/plus SHOULD be able to step on ANY track, familiarity aside, and Play to a Scratch/Plus level, though it's been my experience across just over four decades that many do not.

 

It's like Obes said, some Play for fun and "loose" and others Play nothing but competitive money games and Tourneys

 

I didn't mean any disrespect with my response as I respect both you and your thoughts and posts it's just that on this subject based on your post, across four plus decades of competitive golf, I have seen many more club scratches/pluses than Players.

 

Have a great evening My Friend?

 

My Best,

RP

[Obee]

I guess it depends on how strong of a game the scratch player has. If his HC is from a very difficult course, he might have a chance. But on average I would think scratch could win 1 out of 5 times.

 

All scratch players have a strong game and it doesn't matter how difficult his home course is. A scratch on one course should be a scratch on any course other than course familiarity.

Having Played with and against a ton of "scratch/Plus's," a couple of words that I try never to use are "all" and "none" as there are exceptions to every rule and in every walk of life.

 

That being said, my first match in the WPa Inter Club MP Championship in 2012 was against a .5~, basically a scratch(I was at +2.8) and 4-time club Champion from a smaller club in Pittsburgh. I am not going to mention it by name because while it is a very nice smaller club, because the Best description that I can think of is "quaint." It is a beautiful little track(6500+ BoBs) and the Players are what I and others call "club scratches/pluses)." We Played at Oakmont from 7150yds+.

 

I shut him down on 12 and while it was match play, with 3 conceded putts of 5-7', he had a 42 on the front. Course familiarity had nothing to do with it Bro-

 

He was overwhelmed with the track and he was overwhelmed with the competition.

 

Saying that ALL Scratches/Pluses can Play to their cap anywhere while theoretically true according to the cap system, is just not an accurate statement.

 

That's like saying that ALL starting DI LBers can Play. Theoretically, yes, a starting DI LBer on a full boat should be able to Play to a certain level of competence however that is just not the case as many cannot step up against a NFL caliber OL and get the job done. They SHOULD be able to. They are 6'2", 245lbs, can fly like the wind and hit like a runaway truck on the practice field, but on game day, in opponent's stadium against a stud, they're what we called "ghosts," because they're invisible and no one sees em, much less feels em, lol

 

"Should" is the critical word here because yes, theoretically a scratch/plus SHOULD be able to step on ANY track, familiarity aside, and Play to a Scratch/Plus level, though it's been my experience across just over four decades that many do not.

 

It's like Obes said, some Play for fun and "loose" and others Play nothing but competitive money games and Tourneys

 

I didn't mean any disrespect with my response as I respect both you and your thoughts and posts it's just that on this subject based on your post, across four plus decades of competitive golf, I have seen many more club scratches/pluses than Players.

 

Have a great evening My Friend

 

My Best,

RP

 

All heed wise King Richard!!! :/)

[Dizz]

Cool story Obee... I too have been fortunate enough to play with some world class players.

 

Three years ago I played in a foursome with a major winner, a very recent runner-up in the United States Amateur and his teammate who won the MAC College Championship by 12 shots. We played a course that was very familiar to all of us, a par 70 right at 7000 yards that's rated 73.8... I finished third that day with a 67. The MAC Champ shot 64, the US Amateur runner-up (this guy shot 69 at Augusta National during the tournament in April) shot 65 and the PGA Tour player that won a major and 5 PGA Tour events shot 72.....

 

....6 days later he won the Texas Open and $1,240,000...

 

At the time I was playing to a +0.4 or something around there... the guys on tour are not completely invincible but over time and over the course of 4 rounds is generally where they have their advantage. I can beat the guy one random Monday morning but over the course of an entire season its not possible. Match play also has some different factors that I think help the lesser of the players...

[mosesgolf]

Scratch is overrated when it comes to comparing against the best in the world especially top 20. Scratch gets intimidated, never competed vs talent at that level etc. Not only does scratch gets waxed but that scratch realizes the top 20 are just on another planet.

[Forged4ever]

I guess it depends on how strong of a game the scratch player has. If his HC is from a very difficult course, he might have a chance. But on average I would think scratch could win 1 out of 5 times.

 

All scratch players have a strong game and it doesn't matter how difficult his home course is. A scratch on one course should be a scratch on any course other than course familiarity.

Having Played with and against a ton of "scratch/Plus's," a couple of words that I try never to use are "all" and "none" as there are exceptions to every rule and in every walk of life.

 

That being said, my first match in the WPa Inter Club MP Championship in 2012 was against a .5~, basically a scratch(I was at +2.8) and 4-time club Champion from a smaller club in Pittsburgh. I am not going to mention it by name because while it is a very nice smaller club, because the Best description that I can think of is "quaint." It is a beautiful little track(6500+ BoBs) and the Players are what I and others call "club scratches/pluses)." We Played at Oakmont from 7150yds+.

 

I shut him down on 12 and while it was match play, with 3 conceded putts of 5-7', he had a 42 on the front. Course familiarity had nothing to do with it Bro-

 

He was overwhelmed with the track and he was overwhelmed with the competition.

 

Saying that ALL Scratches/Pluses can Play to their cap anywhere while theoretically true according to the cap system, is just not an accurate statement.

 

That's like saying that ALL starting DI LBers can Play. Theoretically, yes, a starting DI LBer on a full boat should be able to Play to a certain level of competence however that is just not the case as many cannot step up against a NFL caliber OL and get the job done. They SHOULD be able to. They are 6'2", 245lbs, can fly like the wind and hit like a runaway truck on the practice field, but on game day, in opponent's stadium against a stud, they're what we called "ghosts," because they're invisible and no one sees em, much less feels em, lol

 

"Should" is the critical word here because yes, theoretically a scratch/plus SHOULD be able to step on ANY track, familiarity aside, and Play to a Scratch/Plus level, though it's been my experience across just over four decades that many do not.

 

It's like Obes said, some Play for fun and "loose" and others Play nothing but competitive money games and Tourneys

 

I didn't mean any disrespect with my response as I respect both you and your thoughts and posts it's just that on this subject based on your post, across four plus decades of competitive golf, I have seen many more club scratches/pluses than Players.

 

Have a great evening My Friend

 

My Best,

RP

 

All heed wise King Richard!!! :/)

HaHa, you're too kind :)

 

Sometimes I am Fairways & Greens and while those are definitely my thoughts regarding scratches and Plusses I was pretty medicated and as for my comparison of a LB with a Plus, WTF, lmao?

 

Though we did have one transfer LB that looked like a greek god in shorts(6'4", 245lbs, 36w & 50"ch) and had like 20+ sacks the year before for some division IX(I'm joshin, but they had like 500+ total students and disbanded the football team cuz not enough guys to field a team, lol) rinky dink college up east and I told my Buds that if he ran and hit like he looked, I was friggin quittin and just gonna study, sit on my fraternity's porch, drink beer and chase girls, lmao. Thank the good Lord that he ran like an oaf and I was stunned at how passive that he was. He quit two days into SHORTS/SHOULDER PADS & HELMETS, LMAO. Oh boy was our HC pissed cuz we sorta zeroed in on him but our position coach loved it cuz he said anyone built that good had no business on a football field ???

 

Bro, you see why I'm such an idiot???

 

Hanging around coaches and guys who had thought processes like that, I never had a friggin chance?

 

I can't wait for your and Isaac's thread!!!

 

That'll be Epic and a HoFer for sure!!

 

Have a great weekend?

 

Always,

RP

[Forged4ever]

Cool story Obee... I too have been fortunate enough to play with some world class players.

 

Three years ago I played in a foursome with a major winner, a very recent runner-up in the United States Amateur and his teammate who won the MAC College Championship by 12 shots. We played a course that was very familiar to all of us, a par 70 right at 7000 yards that's rated 73.8... I finished third that day with a 67. The MAC Champ shot 64, the US Amateur runner-up (this guy shot 69 at Augusta National during the tournament in April) shot 65 and the PGA Tour player that won a major and 5 PGA Tour events shot 72.....

 

....6 days later he won the Texas Open and $1,240,000...

 

At the time I was playing to a +0.4 or something around there... the guys on tour are not completely invincible but over time and over the course of 4 rounds is generally where they have their advantage. I can beat the guy one random Monday morning but over the course of an entire season its not possible. Match play also has some different factors that I think help the lesser of the players...

Dizz, Great story and Great Playing?

 

What's your lowest cap?

 

All the Best,

RP

[Obee]

Cool story Obee... I too have been fortunate enough to play with some world class players.

 

Three years ago I played in a foursome with a major winner, a very recent runner-up in the United States Amateur and his teammate who won the MAC College Championship by 12 shots. We played a course that was very familiar to all of us, a par 70 right at 7000 yards that's rated 73.8... I finished third that day with a 67. The MAC Champ shot 64, the US Amateur runner-up (this guy shot 69 at Augusta National during the tournament in April) shot 65 and the PGA Tour player that won a major and 5 PGA Tour events shot 72.....

 

....6 days later he won the Texas Open and $1,240,000...

 

At the time I was playing to a +0.4 or something around there... the guys on tour are not completely invincible but over time and over the course of 4 rounds is generally where they have their advantage. I can beat the guy one random Monday morning but over the course of an entire season its not possible. Match play also has some different factors that I think help the lesser of the players...

 

Preach, my brotha!! :-)

[Matt J]

In essence this has turned into a basic discussion of a net game. IMO, the key to playing net games is to know which way you're trending. Never bet the farm one day into a slump.

[Obee]

In essence this has turned into a basic discussion of a net game. IMO, the key to playing net games is to know which way you're trending. Never bet the farm one day into a slump.

 

Yep.

 

Kinda like the stock market. LOL

[Loki]

In essence this has turned into a basic discussion of a net game. IMO, the key to playing net games is to know which way you're trending. Never bet the farm one day into a slump.

 

Thanks for the awesome tip...guess I should never play for money then.