The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy

[Golfjack]

I just think if you can do this properly, you will be more on plane and your swing path will be neutral to your body. For the longest time I was so comfortable with an inside out path that I always hooded my clubface and hit a big draw. Now that it's more neutral, when I hood the face out of habit the ball just goes left. I can open my stance a little to try to hit a fade, but it's still going left and if I don't open the face enough my swing path is still in line with my body. For me since I had a inside out path for so long it just feels like my arms are so outside and almost OTT feel, but it really means I'm neutral. I keep letting my arms fall back inside too much though so probably need to make that a basic pre swing thought to keep my swing plane proper.

[Jim Waldron]

I don't want to downplay how difficult seeing through this very real optical illusion (and it is certainly NOT the only one in the golf swing, just the Biggest) since even my in person students will typically get the concept wrong when first working with it. Hence the "Penny from Big Bang" comment!

 

Humans tend to "think" in internal visual channel in 2D. And to "think" using internal auditory or voice channel, ie using words, sequentially. Both of those things create a strong perceptual filter/bias that empowers the illusion, ie makes it tough to see through it.

 

The sequential part is why - even though when working with new students and all throughout this thread, when I say that the arm pushaway is happening AT THE SAME TIME as the Pivot, and that the Pivot is the MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THE GOLF SWING, folks will "see" 1. push the arms away first and then 2. pivot.

 

I think I have told the story about a student who came with four friends from Singapore to attend my Portland golf school back in 2006. Because of precisely that bias I described above, he went home to Singapore and told all his golfing friends that he had learned this "unconventional" swing style from me, that was about pushing your arms away first and then pivoting....I am not making this up. The weird thing was his handicap dropped from a 20 to a 12 in the course of 6 months, and all his friends were amazed at how much better he was hitting it. I went to teach for a month at their private club in Singapore about a year later, and had to tell him that this was not the swing model that I teach, to his surprise!

 

Which means that very possibly the much searched for "secret" of the golf swing might be - dare I say it - the ability to coordinate body parts that make simultaneous motions in different dimensions? Exactly like rubbing your tummy and patting your head? Yeah - I am saying that. And some folks are born with a lot more talent for that kind of coordination than others. But even the folks who have just a little bit of that talent can learn to get much, much better at coordination - with simple regular practice.

[Jim Waldron]

5. the arms actively "lift" upward into the vertical dimension. No - there is no active lift of the arms in the model backswing. The pushaway happens in the width dimension, and that plus the pivot combine to create a force that bends the right elbow, which then lifts the arms, mainly the left arm, into the vertical dimension.

 

You mentioned above in thread to think of the arms also moving up/down in front of you in a "V" motion. The sides of the triangle moving up/down in front of the rotating chest (sides I take it as your upper arms, ie. elbow to shoulder socket). In my pedantic opinion, this doesn't fit with what you are stating in in the quote.

 

If one doesn't lift you end up with very flat backswing with left arm at should line from DTL like Rory (or even below like Kuchar if one really takes it too literally). I can easily keep my right upper arm from lifting very little and I look like Kuchar and hook it off the planet.

 

To get to your neutral top of backswing position, the "V" motion of raising arms up in front of you (hard to describe because you are bent over , but rotate chest while standing straight up and I take it the "V" motion means lifting arms using shoulder muscles a but as you pivot). As I mentioned you can tell who used the V motion and by how much. Kuchar did very little, Rory a bit more, DJ even more and Bubba has his upper arms way off his torso .

 

Or am I way off base?

 

Yeah - you are way off base.

 

It is very simple - the arms do "go up" obviously, and they both "go up" relative to the ground and relative to your body. When I say the arms do not "lift" I mean that the arm muscles do not lift the arms up into the vertical dimension, like so many golfers do, which often results in the left arm and shaft being way above the ideal plane at the Top. What makes the arms go "up" relative to your body is simply the folding to 75-90 degrees of the right elbow. That raises the left arm. Meaning this is a closer to the mechanically advantaged or most efficient swing model, since you are eliminating a major piece of the golf swing puzzle that is present in most golfers swing, therefore you end up with a swing that is simpler to execute and easier to repeat.

 

The arms "go up" relative to the ground due to the right elbow folding but also due to the fact that you are pivoting on a forward spine angle which raises your arms toward the sky.

[Jim Waldron]

I just think if you can do this properly, you will be more on plane and your swing path will be neutral to your body. For the longest time I was so comfortable with an inside out path that I always hooded my clubface and hit a big draw. Now that it's more neutral, when I hood the face out of habit the ball just goes left. I can open my stance a little to try to hit a fade, but it's still going left and if I don't open the face enough my swing path is still in line with my body. For me since I had a inside out path for so long it just feels like my arms are so outside and almost OTT feel, but it really means I'm neutral. I keep letting my arms fall back inside too much though so probably need to make that a basic pre swing thought to keep my swing plane proper.

 

Yeah, much easier to achieve a neutral path when you have synched up your arm motion with your pivot, and the ASI is a major step in being able to achieve that. The modern swing is based on the ideal of an on plane shaft angle throughout the swing almost to the Finish. That angle will naturally steepen a bit as you near the Top ( about ten degrees or so) but the basic idea is to learn a swing that features no major shaft angle changes, so that you are closer to attaining a true repeatable and efficient motion. If one did not do the slight arm pushaway, and just pivoted, you end up moderately too much inside and under plane by the end of takeaway. If you push away more than the recommended amount, you end up either moderately or way outside and above the plane. If you actively pull your arms in and around - which is the default move during takeaway of probably 95% of mid to high handicap golfers - then you end up inside and under plane.

 

When your chest has rotated to about 45-60 degrees by end of takeaway, and you did in fact push away 4-8 inches on that 45 degree angle AT THE SAME TIME AS YOU PIVOT, the end result is a shaft that tracks back on the original Address plane with no angle changes.(Assuming you started from a proper Setup, of course). The two moves, in effect, "cancel each other out" so that a 45 degree chest move to the inside and a 45 degree arm move to the outside, results in an on plane shaft motion.

[4pillars]

5. the arms actively "lift" upward into the vertical dimension. No - there is no active lift of the arms in the model backswing. The pushaway happens in the width dimension, and that plus the pivot combine to create a force that bends the right elbow, which then lifts the arms, mainly the left arm, into the vertical dimension.

 

You mentioned above in thread to think of the arms also moving up/down in front of you in a "V" motion. The sides of the triangle moving up/down in front of the rotating chest (sides I take it as your upper arms, ie. elbow to shoulder socket). In my pedantic opinion, this doesn't fit with what you are stating in in the quote.

 

If one doesn't lift you end up with very flat backswing with left arm at should line from DTL like Rory (or even below like Kuchar if one really takes it too literally). I can easily keep my right upper arm from lifting very little and I look like Kuchar and hook it off the planet.

 

To get to your neutral top of backswing position, the "V" motion of raising arms up in front of you (hard to describe because you are bent over , but rotate chest while standing straight up and I take it the "V" motion means lifting arms using shoulder muscles a but as you pivot). As I mentioned you can tell who used the V motion and by how much. Kuchar did very little, Rory a bit more, DJ even more and Bubba has his upper arms way off his torso .

 

Or am I way off base?

 

Yeah - you are way off base.

 

It is very simple - the arms do "go up" obviously, and they both "go up" relative to the ground and relative to your body. When I say the arms do not "lift" I mean that the arm muscles do not lift the arms up into the vertical dimension, like so many golfers do, which often results in the left arm and shaft being way above the ideal plane at the Top. What makes the arms go "up" relative to your body is simply the folding to 75-90 degrees of the right elbow. That raises the left arm. Meaning this is a closer to the mechanically advantaged or most efficient swing model, since you are eliminating a major piece of the golf swing puzzle that is present in most golfers swing, therefore you end up with a swing that is simpler to execute and easier to repeat.

 

The arms "go up" relative to the ground due to the right elbow folding but also due to the fact that you are pivoting on a forward spine angle which raises your arms toward the sky.

 

It must be Spring and the Masters. Time to start the cycle of questions again.

 

Time to dehiberate.

[Jim Waldron]

I will be conducting a one day Total Immersion ballstriking/golf swing fundamentals school in Dublin, Ireland on Sunday, May 21.

 

Attendance will be limited to a maximum of just five students. School will start at 10am and end at 6PM, with a half hour lunch break.

 

Main curriculum topics are: identifying your Top 3 swing flaws and corrective drills; my swing model/basic theory, including the ASI and related illusions; the mind-brain/body connection approach to effective golf skills learning and practice; about an hour devoted to the Art of Shotmaking - the mental side of how to play including PSR and mental focus skills; the importance of a proper tour pro quality Setup; the Six Swing Segment mechanics. The goals are: immediate improvement to your golf shots by focusing on the quick and easy to learn fundamentals like Setup, Balance, Awareness, Grip Pressure and swing flaw elimination as well as more radical long term swing changes to take your ballstriking to the next level of more distance, accuracy and consistency.

 

Expect to achieve several Deep Insights about the model golf swing and how your current swing compares!

 

Practice range is grass with covered area with mats that we will have access to in case of rain. The facility is just 5 minutes from the Dublin airport so easy access for those flying in for the school.

 

Please PM me with your questions and to register.

 

Jim Waldron

[dog flog]

I have only lately discovered Jim Waldron. I think this is some truly original material in the vault of golf knowlege. I feel like I have a better grasp of how my arms really work and how the magic loop works. Awesome stuff. Thanks, Jim.

[Jim Waldron]

I have only lately discovered Jim Waldron. I think this is some truly original material in the vault of golf knowlege. I feel like I have a better grasp of how my arms really work and how the magic loop works. Awesome stuff. Thanks, Jim.

 

Thank you! Always nice to receive positive feedback.

 

Just finished watching the Masters and was very, very happy for Sergio....amazing win. Now that he has "the monkey off his back" I think we may see at least two or three more majors before he is finished - maybe even a lot more than two or three. Sounds like he is crediting his win to new found emotional intelligence, or one kind of that skill - acceptance in the face of adversity and suffering.

[hyunsbuns]

I'm completely dumbfounded. I've been searching for the "secret" to the swing for the past 3 years through endless Youtube videos, online memberships and even lessons... and here it was, pinned on this forum the whole time. I'm so mad at myself for not seeing this sooner. Such an eye opening video, worth every penny.

[Jim Waldron]

I'm completely dumbfounded. I've been searching for the "secret" to the swing for the past 3 years through endless Youtube videos, online memberships and even lessons... and here it was, pinned on this forum the whole time. I'm so mad at myself for not seeing this sooner. Such an eye opening video, worth every penny.

 

Glad to hear the ASI video helped you in your understanding!

 

I don't think of it so much as the only "secret" so much as a breakthrough in understanding what the relationship of the arm motion to the pivot is truly all about.

[hyunsbuns]

I'm completely dumbfounded. I've been searching for the "secret" to the swing for the past 3 years through endless Youtube videos, online memberships and even lessons... and here it was, pinned on this forum the whole time. I'm so mad at myself for not seeing this sooner. Such an eye opening video, worth every penny.

 

Glad to hear the ASI video helped you in your understanding!

 

I don't think of it so much as the only "secret" so much as a breakthrough in understanding what the relationship of the arm motion to the pivot is truly all about.

 

Jim,

 

I refer to it as the secret because I always jokingly said there was some conspiracy that good golfers didn't want to tell us bad amateurs because its so hard to attain. After watching ASI I feel like I understand the swing so much more now.

 

Just after 1 trip to the range and taking practice swings in my backyard, my downswing is on or under the plane (which I always struggled with), my impact position feels good and I know what lag feels like for the first time! My ball striking wasn't that great and I know I have a lot to work on, but for the first time in my golf career I feel like I have a foundation I can build on. Thanks again, Jim!

[Jim Waldron]

One of the truly important swing concepts that is vital to a proper understanding of golf swing mechanics is the distinct differences - and there are several - between Address/Setup and Impact. There is a "common sense" idea among most amateur golfers to "return to my Setup position." The only thing that should be "returning" is the shaft on the original plane angle or at least close to it - in reality it will be a bit steeper.

 

The body positions are nowhere near similar. The Big Deal here is that your arms - think lead arm especially - is much farther away from torso mid-line at Impact than when your swing started. And that requires some degree of "open-ness" to your chest at Impact.

 

How much open is mainly dependent on how much arm to chest angle you have - or "arm lag". The more arm lag, the more open you need to be to square up the clubface at impact. The more flexible your body and the stronger your core, the more arm lag you can use. And the opposite is also true.

 

The other factor about how open your chest is - how much do you use forearm rotation (or even a blend of upper and lower arm rotation) to help square the face. The more you rotate the arms counter-clockwise when you still have 50%-100% of your wrist c0ck maintained, the more the path of the clubhead swings to the left. It is one thing great senior golfers tend to add to their swing as they past the age 50 mark - when they no longer have the flexibility/core strength of their youth - and makes getting the clubhead to swing around what I call the "little circle" as opposed to the "big circle" of the Pivot.

[Steveleeifc]

Some really good info here !!

[Jim Waldron]

The other main swing factor affecting the clubhead path and impact, is the degree of rightward tilt of your torso on the downswing.

 

Tilt subtracts from rotation is one key concept. The more you tilt, the more open you need to be with your chest by impact to offset the tendency of the rightward tilt to create too much in to out clubhead path. If you do not tilt enough, your path will tend to be out to in.

 

So if you for some reason you wanted to hit the biggest block imaginable, you would retard your chest rotation, add more right tilt than normal, and have more arm lag than normal. 30 degrees dead right would not be a surprise. The opposite for big Tug to the left.

 

A lot of the challenge in learning the craft of ballstriking is how to blend or sync up the chest rotation, right tilt, arm lag and forearm rotation so that you can be "on time" at impact. And of course the other big piece of the puzzle is the point in the downswing that you start to lose your wrist c0ck angle or the Release Trigger, and how fast that wrist angle opening happens in time.

[Captain Bondo]

Quick question: The arm motion on the downswing would be the same motion backwards, pulling the arm towards your body ?!

 

No.

 

Think of a V and a U. The arm movement is V shaped in the backswing and U shaped on the downswing.

 

The V is the result of a scooping action on the backswing and the left arm moving slightly to the right as it goes up.

 

The U is the result of the arms dropping, almost straight down, to hip height. This is to the right of your mid-line. Jim teaches that they then come to a stop whilst connected to the chest and that they don’t move across the chest until after impact.

 

At the schools Jim taught that you should never pull the arms down or across the body

 

So I think the tricky bit for me is after I reach top of backswing, my hands/arms need to drop almost straight down, shaft flattens, etc.

 

What I don't understand is why we lift the arms up only to drop them again. Is the drop something that helps the pivot sequence?

 

I sure there is a reason we don't just swing crazy flat (beyond the aesthetics). I feel like if I knew why, it would be easier to convince my brain to do it. Any insights? Is it just too hard to not come ott unless the club head has some "downward" inertia?

 

If I were to throw a club down range, or throw a ball, I would use my body for all of the lateral arm motion just like the ASI describes, but I would not pick it up as I wind up, then try to undo/reroute that as I throw it. I'd just wind up straight back roughly on the path I intend to throw it along.

 

Im not saying it's unnecessary, I am saying I don't understand the "why" and for my personality I don't think I can commit to it either consciously or subconsciously unless I do?

[Jim Waldron]

Quick question: The arm motion on the downswing would be the same motion backwards, pulling the arm towards your body ?!

 

No.

 

Think of a V and a U. The arm movement is V shaped in the backswing and U shaped on the downswing.

 

The V is the result of a scooping action on the backswing and the left arm moving slightly to the right as it goes up.

 

The U is the result of the arms dropping, almost straight down, to hip height. This is to the right of your mid-line. Jim teaches that they then come to a stop whilst connected to the chest and that they don't move across the chest until after impact.

 

At the schools Jim taught that you should never pull the arms down or across the body

 

So I think the tricky bit for me is after I reach top of backswing, my hands/arms need to drop almost straight down, shaft flattens, etc.

 

What I don't understand is why we lift the arms up only to drop them again. Is the drop something that helps the pivot sequence?

 

I sure there is a reason we don't just swing crazy flat (beyond the aesthetics). I feel like if I knew why, it would be easier to convince my brain to do it. Any insights? Is it just too hard to not come ott unless the club head has some "downward" inertia?

 

If I were to throw a club down range, or throw a ball, I would use my body for all of the lateral arm motion just like the ASI describes, but I would not pick it up as I wind up, then try to undo/reroute that as I throw it. I'd just wind up straight back roughly on the path I intend to throw it along.

 

Im not saying it's unnecessary, I am saying I don't understand the "why" and for my personality I don't think I can commit to it either consciously or subconsciously unless I do?

 

All good questions. This is one of the toughest aspects of the golf swing to gain real clarity about. I cover these questions in depth in my Module Three: Advanced Arm Mechanics video and a bit in Module Five on the Release as well.

 

Your arms go "up" relative to your body due to the folding of the right elbow. That happens as the end result of takeaway - both the arm pushaway and the pivot - creates a force that makes your right elbow fold. When that fold happens, it raises your left arm relative to your chest.

 

So to hit the ball a long way in the Long Game, you need a full backswing motion in order to generate sufficient CH speed. A half a backswing won't cut it. You need the extra clubhead travel that the levers give you - upper arms off the chest and up (shoulder joint motion), right elbow folding and the wrists c0cking.

 

You also need some "up/down" because you are hitting an object sitting on the ground. A flat backswing would hit everything except driver really thin - not solid.

 

The arms do not actually have a lot of "drop" - the upper arms come back down to the chest as the right elbow bend straightens (reverses course from backswing) so that the arms are moving down, out and forward (a bit toward mid-line of torso). I call that "independent arm motion in Transition" meaning it is motion happening in the shoulder socket/upper arm joint and also in the right elbow. BUT - the force that makes those two joints move is - for average golfers especially, ie those without superfast pivots - coming from mainly the Pivot (a little bit from gravity as well). "Straight down" that Kiwi mentioned is relative to the body, and it is not literally 100% straight down, just less of a V motion than the backswing.

 

The main thing that moves the arms in the Transition is the Pivot, meaning most of the range of motion of the arms is "dependent arm motion in Transition" coming directly from lateral hip shift, rightward tilt and body rotation.

[Silky]

 

 

All good questions. This is one of the toughest aspects of the golf swing to gain real clarity about. I cover these questions in depth in my Module Three: Advanced Arm Mechanics video and a bit in Module Five on the Release as well.

 

Your arms go "up" relative to your body due to the folding of the right elbow. That happens as the end result of takeaway - both the arm pushaway and the pivot - creates a force that makes your right elbow fold. When that fold happens, it raises your left arm relative to your chest.

 

So to hit the ball a long way in the Long Game, you need a full backswing motion in order to generate sufficient CH speed. A half a backswing won't cut it. You need the extra clubhead travel that the levers give you - upper arms off the chest and up (shoulder joint motion), right elbow folding and the wrists c0cking.

 

You also need some "up/down" because you are hitting an object sitting on the ground. A flat backswing would hit everything except driver really thin - not solid.

 

The arms do not actually have a lot of "drop" - the upper arms come back down to the chest as the right elbow bend straightens (reverses course from backswing) so that the arms are moving down, out and forward (a bit toward mid-line of torso). I call that "independent arm motion in Transition" meaning it is motion happening in the shoulder socket/upper arm joint and also in the right elbow. BUT - the force that makes those two joints move is - for average golfers especially, ie those without superfast pivots - coming from mainly the Pivot (a little bit from gravity as well). "Straight down" that Kiwi mentioned is relative to the body, and it is not literally 100% straight down, just less of a V motion than the backswing.

 

The main thing that moves the arms in the Transition is the Pivot, meaning most of the range of motion of the arms is "dependent arm motion in Transition" coming directly from lateral hip shift, rightward tilt and body rotation.

 

Thank you, Jim. I understand your term "independent arm motion in transition" completely but still have doubt about the actuator of that motion. I am pretty certain that, during transition, the acceleration of the lead shoulder away from the chin about horizontally toward the target will torque the lead arm backward, downward and outward. If that is the case, then, my question is what causes the lead shoulder to move away from the chin.

[Captain Bondo]

Thank you so much Jim. I was just looking at your videos on your site yesterday. I am in Vancouver bc. Not out of range for actually making a visit while the wife goes to the outlet malls. Something to think about!

 

If I understand correctly the concept is that the little bit of independent arm motion there is in the swing is mostly due to right elbow bending/straightening. I'm guessing that is somewhat oversimplifying but maybe close enough to help me at this point? Edit: other than the independent motion created by push away of course

 

So in response to the last guy -

Sounds to me like the right arm straightening in the downswing is what does it? So as you rotate the body and do the push away, the right arm starts to bend. This creates the "up" and a tiny bit of "sideways" (all relative to the body). The straightening of the right arm "undoes" that independent motion.

 

And then in terms of sequence my guess is that most of the right arms straightening happens in transition, as the weight shifts forward. The obvious temptation for a guy like me is of course to start rotating my core back to the target and then start straightening my arm. Aka over the top and flailing like a walrus. But I might be getting ahead of myself there.

[Jim Waldron]

All good questions. This is one of the toughest aspects of the golf swing to gain real clarity about. I cover these questions in depth in my Module Three: Advanced Arm Mechanics video and a bit in Module Five on the Release as well.

 

Your arms go "up" relative to your body due to the folding of the right elbow. That happens as the end result of takeaway - both the arm pushaway and the pivot - creates a force that makes your right elbow fold. When that fold happens, it raises your left arm relative to your chest.

 

So to hit the ball a long way in the Long Game, you need a full backswing motion in order to generate sufficient CH speed. A half a backswing won't cut it. You need the extra clubhead travel that the levers give you - upper arms off the chest and up (shoulder joint motion), right elbow folding and the wrists c0cking.

 

You also need some "up/down" because you are hitting an object sitting on the ground. A flat backswing would hit everything except driver really thin - not solid.

 

The arms do not actually have a lot of "drop" - the upper arms come back down to the chest as the right elbow bend straightens (reverses course from backswing) so that the arms are moving down, out and forward (a bit toward mid-line of torso). I call that "independent arm motion in Transition" meaning it is motion happening in the shoulder socket/upper arm joint and also in the right elbow. BUT - the force that makes those two joints move is - for average golfers especially, ie those without superfast pivots - coming from mainly the Pivot (a little bit from gravity as well). "Straight down" that Kiwi mentioned is relative to the body, and it is not literally 100% straight down, just less of a V motion than the backswing.

 

The main thing that moves the arms in the Transition is the Pivot, meaning most of the range of motion of the arms is "dependent arm motion in Transition" coming directly from lateral hip shift, rightward tilt and body rotation.

 

Thank you, Jim. I understand your term "independent arm motion in transition" completely but still have doubt about the actuator of that motion. I am pretty certain that, during transition, the acceleration of the lead shoulder away from the chin about horizontally toward the target will torque the lead arm backward, downward and outward. If that is the case, then, my question is what causes the lead shoulder to move away from the chin.

 

Pivot on Transition is a blend of lateral hip girdle shift, Tilt Switch, hip rotation, core rotation and upper torso/s girdle rotation - all of those contribute either directly (as the muscles in the core and upper torso fire) or indirectly to move the left side of the s girdle in the horizontal dimension.

 

The amount of independent arm motion in the shoulder socket that is "possible" and still hit the ball well is actually quite small. The ASI makes us think we have to "do SOMETHING!" with the arm muscles to move the arms - Hit Impulse.

[Jim Waldron]

Thank you so much Jim. I was just looking at your videos on your site yesterday. I am in Vancouver bc. Not out of range for actually making a visit while the wife goes to the outlet malls. Something to think about!

 

If I understand correctly the concept is that the little bit of independent arm motion there is in the swing is mostly due to right elbow bending/straightening. I'm guessing that is somewhat oversimplifying but maybe close enough to help me at this point? Edit: other than the independent motion created by push away of course

 

So in response to the last guy -

Sounds to me like the right arm straightening in the downswing is what does it? So as you rotate the body and do the push away, the right arm starts to bend. This creates the "up" and a tiny bit of "sideways" (all relative to the body). The straightening of the right arm "undoes" that independent motion.

 

And then in terms of sequence my guess is that most of the right arms straightening happens in transition, as the weight shifts forward. The obvious temptation for a guy like me is of course to start rotating my core back to the target and then start straightening my arm. Aka over the top and flailing like a walrus. But I might be getting ahead of myself there.

 

OTT is mostly, for most mid to high handicaps, a matter of not Tilt Switching early enough and/or enough. Right elbow starts to straighten in the 3rd stage of Transition, common for it to straighten to fast/too early. And the initial direction of the straightening is toward the east or opposite direction of the Target.

 

Speed of right arm straightening and how much bend you have in the right elbow at impact is also related to Pivot speed and how open you are with s girdle/chest at impact, how much arm lag you have, etc. as I talked about a few posts above.

[dog flog]

I have only lately discovered Jim Waldron. I think this is some truly original material in the vault of golf knowlege. I feel like I have a better grasp of how my arms really work and how the magic loop works. Awesome stuff. Thanks, Jim.

 

Thank you! Always nice to receive positive feedback.

 

Just finished watching the Masters and was very, very happy for Sergio....amazing win. Now that he has "the monkey off his back" I think we may see at least two or three more majors before he is finished - maybe even a lot more than two or three. Sounds like he is crediting his win to new found emotional intelligence, or one kind of that skill - acceptance in the face of adversity and suffering.

After a lifetime of practicing and refining his technique, he still had to learn to how to trust his action. He's such a human. I was relieved for him. He's been giving us great inner struggles that I've enjoyed that he shows through his extroverted character. If Colin Montgomery could only win a major with game improvement clubs and an outdated body, there would be hope for all of us. Ha ha.

[Silky]

All good questions. This is one of the toughest aspects of the golf swing to gain real clarity about. I cover these questions in depth in my Module Three: Advanced Arm Mechanics video and a bit in Module Five on the Release as well.

 

Your arms go "up" relative to your body due to the folding of the right elbow. That happens as the end result of takeaway - both the arm pushaway and the pivot - creates a force that makes your right elbow fold. When that fold happens, it raises your left arm relative to your chest.

 

So to hit the ball a long way in the Long Game, you need a full backswing motion in order to generate sufficient CH speed. A half a backswing won't cut it. You need the extra clubhead travel that the levers give you - upper arms off the chest and up (shoulder joint motion), right elbow folding and the wrists c0cking.

 

You also need some "up/down" because you are hitting an object sitting on the ground. A flat backswing would hit everything except driver really thin - not solid.

 

The arms do not actually have a lot of "drop" - the upper arms come back down to the chest as the right elbow bend straightens (reverses course from backswing) so that the arms are moving down, out and forward (a bit toward mid-line of torso). I call that "independent arm motion in Transition" meaning it is motion happening in the shoulder socket/upper arm joint and also in the right elbow. BUT - the force that makes those two joints move is - for average golfers especially, ie those without superfast pivots - coming from mainly the Pivot (a little bit from gravity as well). "Straight down" that Kiwi mentioned is relative to the body, and it is not literally 100% straight down, just less of a V motion than the backswing.

 

The main thing that moves the arms in the Transition is the Pivot, meaning most of the range of motion of the arms is "dependent arm motion in Transition" coming directly from lateral hip shift, rightward tilt and body rotation.

 

Thank you, Jim. I understand your term "independent arm motion in transition" completely but still have doubt about the actuator of that motion. I am pretty certain that, during transition, the acceleration of the lead shoulder away from the chin about horizontally toward the target will torque the lead arm backward, downward and outward. If that is the case, then, my question is what causes the lead shoulder to move away from the chin.

 

Pivot on Transition is a blend of lateral hip girdle shift, Tilt Switch, hip rotation, core rotation and upper torso/s girdle rotation - all of those contribute either directly (as the muscles in the core and upper torso fire) or indirectly to move the left side of the s girdle in the horizontal dimension.

 

The amount of independent arm motion in the shoulder socket that is "possible" and still hit the ball well is actually quite small. The ASI makes us think we have to "do SOMETHING!" with the arm muscles to move the arms - Hit Impulse.

 

My old concept, which is wrong, is that the core muscles are only active against the pelvis to turn the torso around P6 onward. Now that I have realized from you is that they are active in transition too!? Probably responsible for the initial CCW rotation of the pelvis sending the left cheek back to the tush line and stretching of the left lat? And sending the left shoulder away from under the chin? And passively torquing the left arm for its independent motion from the shoulder girdle?

[Nard_S]

The other main swing factor affecting the clubhead path and impact, is the degree of rightward tilt of your torso on the downswing.

 

Tilt subtracts from rotation is one key concept. The more you tilt, the more open you need to be with your chest by impact to offset the tendency of the rightward tilt to create too much in to out clubhead path. If you do not tilt enough, your path will tend to be out to in.

 

So if you for some reason you wanted to hit the biggest block imaginable, you would retard your chest rotation, add more right tilt than normal, and have more arm lag than normal. 30 degrees dead right would not be a surprise. The opposite for big Tug to the left.

 

A lot of the challenge in learning the craft of ballstriking is how to blend or sync up the chest rotation, right tilt, arm lag and forearm rotation so that you can be "on time" at impact. And of course the other big piece of the puzzle is the point in the downswing that you start to lose your wrist c0ck angle or the Release Trigger, and how fast that wrist angle opening happens in time.

 

Post that hits home.

 

I tend to be left or OTT with mid irons, long irons and metal progressively get blocked.

 

Let me ask, to offset added spine tilt, does chest rotation need to be more aggressive if all other things are equal. Inherently it would seem a driver setup allows for faster turn vs a wedge setup due to more upright spine angle. So that might negate any added effort Or is it that the added right tilt in a long club requires greater thru put in torso speed? Or is it more so about timing and rhythm?

[Jim Waldron]

The other main swing factor affecting the clubhead path and impact, is the degree of rightward tilt of your torso on the downswing.

 

Tilt subtracts from rotation is one key concept. The more you tilt, the more open you need to be with your chest by impact to offset the tendency of the rightward tilt to create too much in to out clubhead path. If you do not tilt enough, your path will tend to be out to in.

 

So if you for some reason you wanted to hit the biggest block imaginable, you would retard your chest rotation, add more right tilt than normal, and have more arm lag than normal. 30 degrees dead right would not be a surprise. The opposite for big Tug to the left.

 

A lot of the challenge in learning the craft of ballstriking is how to blend or sync up the chest rotation, right tilt, arm lag and forearm rotation so that you can be "on time" at impact. And of course the other big piece of the puzzle is the point in the downswing that you start to lose your wrist c0ck angle or the Release Trigger, and how fast that wrist angle opening happens in time.

 

Post that hits home.

 

I tend to be left or OTT with mid irons, long irons and metal progressively get blocked.

 

Let me ask, to offset added spine tilt, does chest rotation need to be more aggressive if all other things are equal. Inherently it would seem a driver setup allows for faster turn vs a wedge setup due to more upright spine angle. So that might negate any added effort Or is it that the added right tilt in a long club requires greater thru put in torso speed? Or is it more so about timing and rhythm?

 

It's a complicated issue that you are asking about. It helps if you can "think in 3D" - a lot of golfers don't know how to do that, so more words only makes things worse. Spine tilt to the right on the forward swing, in effect, reduces how open your chest rotation is,ie chest rotation shifts your CH path to the left, spine tilt shifts it to the right. You need the proper blend of both to have a neutral path.

 

Yes - Spine Angle (angle of torso toward the ball/ground at Setup) is more upright for driver. So driver Pivot will be longer in space and time than a lob wedge swing. But for the consistency your brain/subconscious mind needs, you want the Tempo or elapsed time of the swing from start to finish to be the same for all full swings, all clubs. Which means the rpm speed of a full lob wedge swing has to be slower than with a driver. Driver Tempo is the baseline for all clubs in the bag. This topic is covered in depth in my Module Eight video on Coordination: Tempo, Rhythm and Timing, which we are in the process of editing right now, will be out around early July.

[Jim Waldron]

All good questions. This is one of the toughest aspects of the golf swing to gain real clarity about. I cover these questions in depth in my Module Three: Advanced Arm Mechanics video and a bit in Module Five on the Release as well.

 

Your arms go "up" relative to your body due to the folding of the right elbow. That happens as the end result of takeaway - both the arm pushaway and the pivot - creates a force that makes your right elbow fold. When that fold happens, it raises your left arm relative to your chest.

 

So to hit the ball a long way in the Long Game, you need a full backswing motion in order to generate sufficient CH speed. A half a backswing won't cut it. You need the extra clubhead travel that the levers give you - upper arms off the chest and up (shoulder joint motion), right elbow folding and the wrists c0cking.

 

You also need some "up/down" because you are hitting an object sitting on the ground. A flat backswing would hit everything except driver really thin - not solid.

 

The arms do not actually have a lot of "drop" - the upper arms come back down to the chest as the right elbow bend straightens (reverses course from backswing) so that the arms are moving down, out and forward (a bit toward mid-line of torso). I call that "independent arm motion in Transition" meaning it is motion happening in the shoulder socket/upper arm joint and also in the right elbow. BUT - the force that makes those two joints move is - for average golfers especially, ie those without superfast pivots - coming from mainly the Pivot (a little bit from gravity as well). "Straight down" that Kiwi mentioned is relative to the body, and it is not literally 100% straight down, just less of a V motion than the backswing.

 

The main thing that moves the arms in the Transition is the Pivot, meaning most of the range of motion of the arms is "dependent arm motion in Transition" coming directly from lateral hip shift, rightward tilt and body rotation.

 

Thank you, Jim. I understand your term "independent arm motion in transition" completely but still have doubt about the actuator of that motion. I am pretty certain that, during transition, the acceleration of the lead shoulder away from the chin about horizontally toward the target will torque the lead arm backward, downward and outward. If that is the case, then, my question is what causes the lead shoulder to move away from the chin.

 

Pivot on Transition is a blend of lateral hip girdle shift, Tilt Switch, hip rotation, core rotation and upper torso/s girdle rotation - all of those contribute either directly (as the muscles in the core and upper torso fire) or indirectly to move the left side of the s girdle in the horizontal dimension.

 

The amount of independent arm motion in the shoulder socket that is "possible" and still hit the ball well is actually quite small. The ASI makes us think we have to "do SOMETHING!" with the arm muscles to move the arms - Hit Impulse.

 

My old concept, which is wrong, is that the core muscles are only active against the pelvis to turn the torso around P6 onward. Now that I have realized from you is that they are active in transition too!? Probably responsible for the initial CCW rotation of the pelvis sending the left cheek back to the tush line and stretching of the left lat? And sending the left shoulder away from under the chin? And passively torquing the left arm for its independent motion from the shoulder girdle?

 

One might argue that the Core muscles are the most important muscles in the golf swing: for stablity/balance and for power. Glutes, low back, belly, obliques, QL, hip flexors/extendors, hip rotaters, TA, rectus - all part of the Core.

 

Transition Trigger is the Core - oblique abs mainly - shifting left when the s girdle/chest still has 10-15 degrees of backswing coil to complete.

 

The Pivot on the forward swing is a really Big Move in space that moves the arms/hands ( the now trendy "hub path") that move the club. It is massively counter-intuitive, due to the "common sense" view average golfers have that they must do something with the smaller muscles in wrists/arms to manipulate the tiny clubhead into a tiny spot on the back of the golf ball. Common sense is to use the fine motor control muscles for this very precise task. But good golf requires both precision and distance, and to generate the CH speed you need, you have to engage those bigger muscles of the Pivot to drive the motion.

[Nard_S]

Jim,

 

Interesting comment about establishing tempo and rhythm with driver. Ball striking is much better throughout the bag once I swing driver for a bit at the range. Used to start with wedge and work down bag but I noticed not too long ago that once I get some solid swings with driver, the "A swing" appears through out. I used to wait till late in session to try metals but I no longer do that.

 

Thanks

[Steveleeifc]

Bought his book after reading this - there is a lot of info in there !!!! Takes some wading through and is quite technical at parts but very useful...

[chigolfer1]

The other main swing factor affecting the clubhead path and impact, is the degree of rightward tilt of your torso on the downswing.

 

Tilt subtracts from rotation is one key concept. The more you tilt, the more open you need to be with your chest by impact to offset the tendency of the rightward tilt to create too much in to out clubhead path. If you do not tilt enough, your path will tend to be out to in.

 

So if you for some reason you wanted to hit the biggest block imaginable, you would retard your chest rotation, add more right tilt than normal, and have more arm lag than normal. 30 degrees dead right would not be a surprise. The opposite for big Tug to the left.

 

A lot of the challenge in learning the craft of ballstriking is how to blend or sync up the chest rotation, right tilt, arm lag and forearm rotation so that you can be "on time" at impact. And of course the other big piece of the puzzle is the point in the downswing that you start to lose your wrist c0ck angle or the Release Trigger, and how fast that wrist angle opening happens in time.

 

 

Jim, this is a great post and for us eternal duffers/occasional OTT's, it really turns on a lightbulb. I have been OTT my whole life and, in an effort to not be OTT, half my swings are almost all tilt with no rotation until the ball is struck. I'm sure you've seen these types of swings where the shoulder barely works out at all and just "crashes" into the right side. Well, at least I'm not OTT, lol, or at least that is what my brain is telling me I guess.

 

I really liked the tilt subtracts from rotation and vice versa and how the golf swing is really a proper blending of tilt, chest rotation, arm lag, etc. Isn't that really what it comes down to in the sense that an athletic, coordinated person can look great after a year of golf and not so coordinated people spend their life trying to get it down? It sort of reminded me of this video where Tom Watson decided to play with more rotation and less tilt so he wasn't having to fight pushing it right on every shot:

 

 

 

Not really sure what my point or question is other than I thought the above was a great description of what happens and why the golf swing is so surprisingly complex. If I were to have a question, how does one work on synching up the correct amount of each of these factors? Or, is that like asking, how do I swing like a PGA player? Is there a particular drill that you use for this synching up and maybe experimenting with different amounts of tilt vs. rotation?

[Jim Waldron]

The other main swing factor affecting the clubhead path and impact, is the degree of rightward tilt of your torso on the downswing.

 

Tilt subtracts from rotation is one key concept. The more you tilt, the more open you need to be with your chest by impact to offset the tendency of the rightward tilt to create too much in to out clubhead path. If you do not tilt enough, your path will tend to be out to in.

 

So if you for some reason you wanted to hit the biggest block imaginable, you would retard your chest rotation, add more right tilt than normal, and have more arm lag than normal. 30 degrees dead right would not be a surprise. The opposite for big Tug to the left.

 

A lot of the challenge in learning the craft of ballstriking is how to blend or sync up the chest rotation, right tilt, arm lag and forearm rotation so that you can be "on time" at impact. And of course the other big piece of the puzzle is the point in the downswing that you start to lose your wrist c0ck angle or the Release Trigger, and how fast that wrist angle opening happens in time.

 

 

Jim, this is a great post and for us eternal duffers/occasional OTT's, it really turns on a lightbulb. I have been OTT my whole life and, in an effort to not be OTT, half my swings are almost all tilt with no rotation until the ball is struck. I'm sure you've seen these types of swings where the shoulder barely works out at all and just "crashes" into the right side. Well, at least I'm not OTT, lol, or at least that is what my brain is telling me I guess.

 

I really liked the tilt subtracts from rotation and vice versa and how the golf swing is really a proper blending of tilt, chest rotation, arm lag, etc. Isn't that really what it comes down to in the sense that an athletic, coordinated person can look great after a year of golf and not so coordinated people spend their life trying to get it down? It sort of reminded me of this video where Tom Watson decided to play with more rotation and less tilt so he wasn't having to fight pushing it right on every shot:

 

 

 

Not really sure what my point or question is other than I thought the above was a great description of what happens and why the golf swing is so surprisingly complex. If I were to have a question, how does one work on synching up the correct amount of each of these factors? Or, is that like asking, how do I swing like a PGA player? Is there a particular drill that you use for this synching up and maybe experimenting with different amounts of tilt vs. rotation?

 

The "how do you do it" part is a great question. Starts with basic intellectual understanding of the concepts, which after some time will hopefully result in a Deep Insight about the truth of the concepts. Then mirror work to see yourself in slow motion do the pieces individually, then blended together. Getting the right shoulder to "track" down on it's own proper plane in the mirror is key - not too much down or out but a blend. Playing around with too much or too little of tilt, rotation and arm lag to see how that affects the clubhead path is another, all in slow mo in the mirror.

 

Half speed swings on the range are next with a ball, deliberately altering the path in the extremes of in to out and out to in, with a square to the path clubface so that you are not hitting a push or pull due to clubface angle.

 

For some Tilt Illusion is more powerful than the ASI and takes some study and contemplation to get the Deep Insight that enables one to see through the Illusion.

 

I have worked with several hundred golf school students who have told me some version of this: that "in 20 plus years of golfing, taking lessons, reading books on the golf swing and watching videos, I have never ever heard one instructor explain this Tilt Illusion concept. Finally now I understand how and why I always come over the top and have a way to fix it."

 

I get students who have come over the top to stop doing it within 30 minutes of working on the Tilt Illusion concept.

 

Covered in depth in my Module Four: Mechanics of the Pivot video.

 

And scores of advanced students who struggled with the opposite issue - too much right tilt and thus too much in to out path. Like Tom Watson.

[Jim Waldron]

I would add that arm lag, Tilt Illusion, rotation of the chest to be open at impact each are so important as swing concepts that each should have it's own thread on this forum. If a golfer truly understood those three things and how enormously impactful they are on achieving great ballstriking, probably half of the other threads would be ignored. Tilt Illusion material includes the key to Spine Angle too.

 

I loved how Watson demonstrated Tilt Switch in that video with the club across his shoulder girdle and talked about reversing the shoulder "turn" (he did not explicitly say tilt but meant to say I think "tilt and turn") so the shaft angle stayed the same at just after impact as at the Top, but kind of mirror images of each other.