Third best player of all time?

[tatertot]

I don't think golf has ever been about the biggest, strongest, fastest ... that's why it's a game where an old man like me can still go out and routinely beat kids in their 20s.

 

And yes - the post Jack pre-Tiger era was pretty blah for the PGA. But I honestly think there are 3-4 players on Tour right now who could be all-time top ten material.

[lowheel]

Not Jones or Nelson.

 

And I'm interested to hear more about this ... I kind of understand Nelson, with a lot of his wins coming during the wars years, but why throw Jones in here?

 

Nelson was the third best player born in 1912.

 

Palmer, Snead, and Hogan each has 60+ wins. Phil has nearly 50. Hagen's career partially predates the tour, but he still gets credit for 45 (and 11 pro majors). And of course Gary Player won 900 events, give or take. Jones didn't win nearly that many events (even if you count the "1908 East Lake Children's Tournament"), and his amateur "majors" are way overrated. No Hagen (the actual best player of that era), no Sarazen, no Barnes, etc.

 

I wouldnt go that far.It was worldwide news when Jones won the slam

[littleinjunp]

Might it be at least partially due to the lack of competition? Well, if forbid the thought, we had a major war today and the tour consisted of DJ Day and Rory and a bunch of mini tour guys do you think the big three might get a lot of wins?

 

Duh and duh

[JunkerJorge]

If all it is is a number count them it must be Snead? Or Hagen as he had third most majors and I have learned on wrx that 11>9.

I was looking up some other things earlier and saw an article that list the authors top 10 all time golfers. Only Tiger started his career in the last 45 years. Only Woods and Watson started their career in the last 65 years. Just seems unlikely to me that golf is the only sport that has regressed so much. All other sports we acknowledge that the athletes are bigger stronger faster better but not golf I guess. Most on this list were born over a century ago.

Point being it's easy to just look at win totals and be awed by the players of long ago. Might it be at least partially due to the lack of competition? Comments about Nelson strike me like this. We hear that he did have a lot of competition because Snead and Hogan played. Well, if forbid the thought, we had a major war today and the tour consisted of DJ Day and Rory and a bunch of mini tour guys do you think the big three might get a lot of wins?

 

I don't think the point is that it was a field of three. I think the point is that if those guys were still around there were likely other guys still around. Also Hogan and Snead didn't rattle off 11 in a row. Hogan did win a few times in 45, don't remember the number. I'm not saying that it was a full field, or even that I would pick Nelson in the third spot here. I just never understood why Hogan is revered as a golf god and Nelson gets dismissed as a guy that got hot once in JV league. Nelson dominated Hogan head to head. Nelson was the man when he was active. It would be interesting to see what would have happened if he didn't retire in his prime. If we are just talking about numbers pull out a chart and close the thread. But I don't know why a guy who won 11 in a row and had the lowest scoring average ever gets dismissed.

[littleinjunp]

Phil, easily.

Billy Casper well before Phil. Casper is one of the most over looked and under appreciated great players in PGA Tour history when it comes to discussing greats of the game.

 

The guy who laid up on Par 3s? Lol

Lol. Yeah he did it every par 3 he ever played. Lol. lol lol.

Man you are really make some brilliant points. Lol.

 

You ok, dude? You gonna have to hustle to CVS to get that blood press checked?

[grm24]

That's fine but you have to draw a line somewhere for where somebody wins when comparing the best players of all time as some players from years past didn't have to chance to play in Europe. And some of the great players from overseas did not have the chance to come to the USA and play. Gary Player being an exception. It didn't make financial sense. As much as Gary Player promotes himself about his accomplishments he did make the travel in a time when it wasn't easy as it is now and won often. He walked the walk and succeeded.

[tatertot]

Phil, easily.

Billy Casper well before Phil. Casper is one of the most over looked and under appreciated great players in PGA Tour history when it comes to discussing greats of the game.

 

The guy who laid up on Par 3s? Lol

Lol. Yeah he did it every par 3 he ever played. Lol. lol lol.

Man you are really make some brilliant points. Lol.

 

You ok, dude? You gonna have to hustle to CVS to get that blood press checked?

 

Seriously? Grow up or take it to a different thread.

[lowheel]

But seriously, the 200th ranked player in 2005 probably had more natural talent and cultivated skill than the 30th ranked player in 1960whatever

But seriously, based on what? Did natural talent, whatever that is, just become common in the last few years? But seriously.

When Butch Harmon tells you Hogan hit it better than Tiger this statement becomes meaningless. Sam Sneads longevity proves this is a ridiculous premise

[littleinjunp]

But seriously, the 200th ranked player in 2005 probably had more natural talent and cultivated skill than the 30th ranked player in 1960whatever

But seriously, based on what? Did natural talent, whatever that is, just become common in the last few years? But seriously.

 

Based on, idk, population size, % of people playing the sport, parents no longer smoking cigarettes or polluting the gene pool w/ their black lung after spending 80% of their life in a mine, etc, etc.

 

Tough concept, ik

[cdnglf]

Not Jones or Nelson.

 

And I'm interested to hear more about this ... I kind of understand Nelson, with a lot of his wins coming during the wars years, but why throw Jones in here?

 

Nelson was the third best player born in 1912.

 

Palmer, Snead, and Hogan each has 60+ wins. Phil has nearly 50. Hagen's career partially predates the tour, but he still gets credit for 45 (and 11 pro majors). And of course Gary Player won 900 events, give or take. Jones didn't win nearly that many events (even if you count the "1908 East Lake Children's Tournament"), and his amateur "majors" are way overrated. No Hagen (the actual best player of that era), no Sarazen, no Barnes, etc.

 

I wouldnt go that far.It was worldwide news when Jones won the slam

 

"Jones Defeats 3 Sheep Herders and Guy Who Walked On Course By Accident to Win British Amateur"

;)

[littleinjunp]

Billy Casper well before Phil. Casper is one of the most over looked and under appreciated great players in PGA Tour history when it comes to discussing greats of the game.

 

The guy who laid up on Par 3s? Lol

Lol. Yeah he did it every par 3 he ever played. Lol. lol lol.

Man you are really make some brilliant points. Lol.

 

You ok, dude? You gonna have to hustle to CVS to get that blood press checked?

 

Seriously? Grow up or take it to a different thread.

 

Uh, look again. Guy insulted me out of nowhere.

[JunkerJorge]

But seriously, the 200th ranked player in 2005 probably had more natural talent and cultivated skill than the 30th ranked player in 1960whatever

But seriously, based on what? Did natural talent, whatever that is, just become common in the last few years? But seriously.

 

Based on, idk, population size, % of people playing the sport, parents no longer smoking cigarettes or polluting the gene pool w/ their black lung after spending 80% of their life in a mine, etc, etc.

 

Tough concept, ik

 

Hard to compare too because of technology. No doubt DJ walking out on the first tee with his gear and Bobby Jones walking out with his gear would be no contest. The current generation is the first guys to grow up with metal woods, graphite shafts, modern balls, etc, etc. Also modern advantages like video, launch monitors, training and nutrition would leave the other guys in the dust. Every one has to be evaluated within their own context. If not who ever is currently number one in pretty much any sport is the GOAT.

[jmvargas]

again it has to be based on a standard or it becomes too subjective..

 

standards could be:

 

1) all majors

 

2) pro majors

 

3) all pro wins

 

4) pro tour wins

 

but based on some of the above it would be Hogan for me with Snead just behind..

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

Mr. Tom Watson

[tatertot]

Mr. Tom Watson

 

Good choice ... 8 majors, a bunch of money titles, and along with Trevino, the only guys who really got the better of the Bear. Man I would have loved to see him win the Claret Jug the sixth time!

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

I don't understand why every quickly dismisses Nelson's run in 45-46. For one any streak of 11 in a row is huge I don't care what the situation is. There was plenty of competition. Hogan won a few in 45 so at least somebody was around. Also Nelson's average score that year was the lowest in history. Were all the good courses away as well?

 

I don't know the answer to that, but I can tell you that the bunkers were much harder to get out of. Just ask Hitler.

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

And my candidates would be Walter Hagen, or perhaps Harry Vardon.

 

Of course, Young Tom Morris's record is also pretty impressive.

[JunkerJorge]

And my candidates would be Walter Hagen, or perhaps Harry Vardon.

 

Of course, Young Tom Morris's record is also pretty impressive.

 

I like the Vardon choice. I don't know enough about the period to try and compare but certainly a very influential golfer.

 

Kind of surprised Gary Player gets no love. Certainly has the numbers.

 

[SteelPride]

Phil, easily.

 

This is a great way to let everyone know not to take you seriously.

[Forged4ever]

Jones was an Amateur and didn't face the pressures of Playin for a roof over his his young wife's head or the baby on the way, food on their table or the car in the garage.

 

He admitted as much after The Haig thoroughly annihilated him, 12&11-

 

Forget humiliate-

 

Forget a rough 72 holes(36 at The Haig's track and 36 at Jones')-

 

No All-Timer EVER took a beating this bad!!

 

For those that have Played for Pay you know exactly of what I speak because this is the one subject and Jones the individual that I have asked almost every single Pro that I've ever spoken to and that is, where did Jones fit in with the All-Timers and did the fact that he remained an Am, had absolutely ZERO pressure on himself other than that which was self imposed versus HAVING to Play well to pay the bills, and almost every Pro, with the exception of Jack, who I got the feeling that he was trying to say the politically correct thing versus HIS feelings, said that they felt Jones remaining an Am, while he definitely owned an era, made it easier to compete.

 

Jones admitted numerous times that The Beatdown convinced him to keep his day job.

 

What I find so amusing is for all of his apologists and fan boys, those 72 holes were a mere blip/vomit on the radar screen, yet for Jones, they were his DEFINIG moment as that was when he was seriously considering turning Pro at both Hagen's and Tommy Armour's behest and JONES has admitted that it was this massive humiliating beat down that convinced him to keep his day job and just Play for silver and crystal.

 

Regarding the era, Professional golf was in its infancy and Sam said that there were less than a handful of guys capable of Playing with Jones day in and day out.

 

Daddy's law firm was lookin really fine that Sunday evening following his humiliation.

 

Mighty Mighty fine??

 

Those of you that have actually Played For Pay know exactly of what I speak!!

 

Oh yea, my #3??

 

You Guys know exactly who he is, haha

 

This is of course just my .03 worth?

 

Stay well Gents and have a great weekend?

 

My Best?

RP

[noahdavis_7]

Jones was an Amateur and didn't face the pressures of Playin for a roof over his his young wife's head or the baby on the way-

Food on the table or the car in the garage.

 

He admitted as much after The Haig thoroughly annihilated him, 12&11-

 

Forget humiliate-

 

Forget a rough 72 holes(36 at The Haig's track and 36 at Jones')-

 

No All-Timer EVER took a beating this bad!!

 

For those that have Played for Pay you know exactly if what I speak because this is the one subject and Jones the individual that I have asked almost every single Pro that I've ever spoken to and that is, where did Jones fit in with the All-Timers and did the fact that he remained an Am, had absolutely ZERO pressure on himself other than that which was self loaded versus HAVING to Play well to pay the bills, and almost every Pro, with the exception of Jack, who I got the feeling that he was trying to say the politically correct thing versus HIS feelings, said that they felt Jones remaining an Am, while he definitely owned an era, made it easier to compete.

 

Jones admitted numerous times that The Beating convinced him to keep his day job.

 

What I find so amusing is for all of his apologists and fan boys, those 72 holes were a mere blip/vomit on the radar screen, yet for Jones, they were his DEFINIG moment as that was when he was seriously considering turning Pro at both Hagen's and Tommy Armour's behest and JONES has admitted that it was this massive humiliating beat down that convinced him to keep his day job and just Play for silver and crystal.

 

Daddy's law firm was lookin really fine that Sunday evening following his humiliation.

 

Mighty Mighty fine

 

Those of you that have actually Played For Pay know exactly of what I speak!!

 

Oh yea, my #3??

 

You Guys know exactly who he is, haha

 

Stay well Gents and have a great weekend

 

My Best

RP

 

DAYYYUM! Shots fired. Well said though and a great point.

[Ty_Webb]

And my candidates would be Walter Hagen, or perhaps Harry Vardon.

 

Of course, Young Tom Morris's record is also pretty impressive.

 

Painful that Vardon had to wait this far down the thread to be mentioned. 7 majors in an era where there were two to play in and one of those was a significant trip and he lost 5 or 6 years of his prime to WWI. Dude could flat out play.

 

Hagen getting very little love here too.

[noahdavis_7]

I think it's between Hagen and Snead no doubt

[Bogie_Nights]

@Forged:

 

I know you're a Snead guy, but where would you rank Hogan?

 

Hope all is well with you...

[Petunia Sprinkle]

1. Seve

2. Jack

3. Hm...gotta be Tiger, I guess. (Who else would it be? Duh.)

[marmooskapaul]

Mr. Tom Watson

 

This would be my choice...even if total numbers are less than some others...quality of wins/competition is very high.

[Forged4ever]

@Forged:

 

I know you're a Snead guy, but where would you rank Hogan?

 

Hope all is well with you...

Hey Goody, thanks for the thoughts and back at ya?

 

I have Hogan right behind Sam in the 4th slot.

 

I realize that this is purely an emotional pick and I wouldn't even debate someone who said that Hogan was in front of Sam because if I had to, I could make that argument however I've never liked Hogan after Pete told me some of the things that he said about Sam, some of which was in the public domain and some In the locker room. For some reason it bothered Pete more than Sam, who really did look at Hogan as sort of a big Bro and he never had any animosity towards him.

 

I guess Hogan was just amazed and Pete thought a little jealous of Sam's natural ability and while Sam actually did hit till his hands bled early on in his Pro career(that's a lot of friggin balls, lol), Hogan was of the opinion that Sam just showed up, teed it up and off he went. Hogan always said that if he had Sam's swing he would've had at least 4-5 more Majors, I forget exactly the number.

 

Because of Sam's quotes about simplifying the swing("arithmetic versus trig"), many, including Hogan, thought that he was a southern bumpkin.

 

He was far far from it

 

Well, have a great weekend Bro?

 

My Best,

RP

[Roadking2003]

Who would you argue is the third greatest golfer of all time?

 

I would vote for Sam Snead ... based on number of wins, majors, that gorgeous swing and the folk lore that surrounds him and his athletic ability.

 

Good choice. This question is usually about who had the greatest career, not who had the greatest year or five years or ten years. That's why I don't put Jones anywhere near the top of the list. I think Hogan and Snead are the only two legitimate contenders for #3. So it depends on what value you place on majors. Personally, I think a major is worth at least five or six regular events. so that still gives the #3 spot to Snead.

[Roadking2003]

And I'm interested to hear more about this ... I kind of understand Nelson, with a lot of his wins coming during the wars years, but why throw Jones in here?

 

That's easy. Because Jones only won 7 professional events. Snead won 82. The GOAT discussion should be around his entire career, not four or five years.

[johnnypro]

Ben Hogan.

Won all the majors (9 total)

4 US Opens (could have won several more)

Won his only Open Championship (does anyone think he wouldn't have won more?)

The accident

Ball striking

 

Gotta be Hogan