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Big Bad Low Spin Shaft Review - Continuous On Going Information and Data Updates

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  • blev2blev2 Blev  456Members Posts: 456
    Joined:  #62
    Any tipping on the shafts?
    Posted:
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  • TollBrosTollBros Overseer of the Test Range  4859Sponsors Posts: 4,859
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    manima1 wrote:


    Thanks for bringing this back JT, excited to see the rest of the data.



    The PO looks to be turning in a pretty dominant run here. Only spins a bit more than the KKDC but higher launch angle and ball speeds.



    If I wasn't so happy with the KKDC I would be trying to get my hands on one. Will be interesting to see what happens with the lower swing speed players - I will be looking at these (2) shafts closely.




    I honestly think if you really get along with the weight and balance of the dual core XT, that you won't find another shaft in golf that is better. I just happen to love the balance of the orange, but performance wise on the course, they are so close you couldn't tell the difference.
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  • TollBrosTollBros Overseer of the Test Range  4859Sponsors Posts: 4,859
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    msands12 wrote:


    Thanks TB for all this work and information. Pretty awesome to provide your time and knowledge to the forum. Got a quick question. I currently play a Rogue 125 70TX in my Epic SZ. What shaft(s) on this list would be something I should look into trying if I got the bug to experiment?




    If you are looking for something lower spin without sacrificing launch angle or feel, Kuro Kàge Dual Core XT I would say. Since you're playing Aldila, the Mamba shafts are **** good but a little tighter feeling. If you want a bit firmer feel, Black Mamba.

    blev2 wrote:


    Any tipping on the shafts?




    All tipped the standard 1 inch.
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  • KPH808KPH808 Participation Trophy  2639ClubWRX Posts: 2,639
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    Have you tried the Atmos Black?
    Posted:
    [font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][font=times new roman,times,serif]Ping G400 LST 8.5* w/ Tensei Pro White 70 TX
    TM '17 M2 15* w/ Kurokage Dual Core 80 TX
    TM P790 UDI 2 w/ KBS Tour 130x
    Titleist 718 CB w/ KBS $ Taper 130x
    Fourteen Raw RM 22 50, 54, 58 w/ KBS 610 Tour Black Nickel
    Scotty Cameron Circle T Futura 6M
    [/font]
    [/font]
  • ryborybo  2233Members Posts: 2,233
    Joined:  #66
    3 data sets so far and the spin ranges are huge!



    From low to high and difference

    2308 - 3265 = 957

    2004 - 2974 = 970

    2004 - 2784 = 780



    That much difference in spin is truly amazing for what are considered all low spin/low launch shafts.





    Just tried an Atmos Black last week and Aaron's description is exactly what I experienced. No pop, typical Fuji feel and maybe a touch too much spin.
    Posted:
  • TollBrosTollBros Overseer of the Test Range  4859Sponsors Posts: 4,859
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    KPH808 wrote:


    Have you tried the Atmos Black?




    Your question confuses me. Did you read the test posts?
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  • ryborybo  2233Members Posts: 2,233
    Joined:  #68
    Toll,



    Could you list the shafts in order of butt stiffness/feel?



    I too do not care for butt soft shafts, I find they feel loose and hard to control. Would be great to know your perspective on this aspect.
    Posted:
  • hwu1hwu1  38Members Posts: 38
    Joined:  #69
    JT-



    Besides yourself, did any of the testers decide to switch shafts after the testing?
    Posted:
  • TollBrosTollBros Overseer of the Test Range  4859Sponsors Posts: 4,859
    Joined:  #70
    hwu1 wrote:


    JT-



    Besides yourself, did any of the testers decide to switch shafts after the testing?




    Yes. You'll get that info soon. image/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />
    Posted:
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  • TollBrosTollBros Overseer of the Test Range  4859Sponsors Posts: 4,859
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    A couple pics of the Copperhead and mamba shafts since most have never seen them.



    Posted:
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  • ObieTrice5ObieTrice5  548Members Posts: 548
    Joined:  #72
    Buying some popcorn image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />



    This is going to be fun.
    Posted:
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  • TollBrosTollBros Overseer of the Test Range  4859Sponsors Posts: 4,859
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    Emillios data added.
    Posted:
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  • J13J13 Dad golf  15748Members Posts: 15,748
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    TollBros wrote:


    Emillios data added.




    During these tests do players find themselves switching based on results? In Emillios case there are several shafts he hits better then his current setup especially the Aldila Black Mamba.
    Posted:
    Callaway Epic Flash Triple Diamond 9* / Mitsubishi Tensei White 70TX
    Callaway EF 3+ w/ HZRDUS Black 75 6.5
    Srixon 745's 4-PW / Modus Tour 120 TX
    Callaway MD3 50, 54, 60 / Modus 125
    Odyssey Stroke Lab Double Wide Flow Neck 35.5" (counter weight removed)
    Srixon Zstar XV
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  • hwu1hwu1  38Members Posts: 38
    Joined:  #75
    J13 wrote:

    TollBros wrote:


    Emillios data added.




    During these tests do players find themselves switching based on results? In Emillios case there are several shafts he hits better then his current setup especially the Aldila Black Mamba.




    I think JT said yes and that info is coming
    Posted:
  • TollBrosTollBros Overseer of the Test Range  4859Sponsors Posts: 4,859
    Joined:  #76
    J13 wrote:

    TollBros wrote:


    Emillios data added.




    During these tests do players find themselves switching based on results? In Emillios case there are several shafts he hits better then his current setup especially the Aldila Black Mamba.




    Sometimes. As a very good player you certainly know that the trust you build for a combo under pressure means more than data on a driving range. Some guys will swap instantly, others will need to "course prove" the shaft for several rounds before they consider changing a trusted combo. Speaking for myself, I personally don't always care what's the longest. I care what I can control under pressure and what I trust to not have a big miss in it. We are all chasing distance of course, but that distance has to come with reasonable accuracy and trust under the gun. Emillio should switch to the Black Mamba, and he is testing it out more with good results, but if you stuck him in a $5000 game today, he would play the combo that has taken plenty of money in the past. Next week, that may be a different story.
    Posted:
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  • J13J13 Dad golf  15748Members Posts: 15,748
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    TollBros wrote:

    J13 wrote:

    TollBros wrote:


    Emillios data added.




    During these tests do players find themselves switching based on results? In Emillios case there are several shafts he hits better then his current setup especially the Aldila Black Mamba.




    Sometimes. As a very good player you certainly know that the trust you build for a combo under pressure means more than data on a driving range. Some guys will swap instantly, others will need to "course prove" the shaft for several rounds before they consider changing a trusted combo. Speaking for myself, I personally don't always care what's the longest. I care what I can control under pressure and what I trust to not have a big miss in it. We are all chasing distance of course, but that distance has to come with reasonable accuracy and trust under the gun. Emillio should switch to the Black Mamba, and he is testing it out more with good results, but if you stuck him in a $5000 game today, he would play the combo that has taken plenty of money in the past. Next week, that may be a different story.




    That makes sense i was just curious as i know when you see shiny numbers on Trackman it's easy to get carried away. For me Trackman is a great tool but it's all about what it does on the course when i hit 1 shot not 20 in a row.
    Posted:
    Callaway Epic Flash Triple Diamond 9* / Mitsubishi Tensei White 70TX
    Callaway EF 3+ w/ HZRDUS Black 75 6.5
    Srixon 745's 4-PW / Modus Tour 120 TX
    Callaway MD3 50, 54, 60 / Modus 125
    Odyssey Stroke Lab Double Wide Flow Neck 35.5" (counter weight removed)
    Srixon Zstar XV
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  • FireProFirePro  865Members Posts: 865
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    do you happen to have the notes for Swing Type: (Rickey Z., 112mph) the chart looks pretty close to what I would expect but I am just curious of the players feedback on feel
    Posted:
    Cobra FlyZ+ @ 8.5 deg w/Grafalloy (White) Blue X-Stiff tipped 3/4" @ 44.75"
    Taylormade 2017 M1 set to 13 deg w/ RBZ TP Aldila RIP Alpha 70X Tipped 1" @ 42.5"
    Titleist 909 F2 (18.5deg) UST AxivCore Tour Green 95X Tipped 1.5" @ 41.5"
    Srixon Z U45 4 & 2 w/ Aldila RIP Alpha 105 X Hybrid shaft (4 @ 38.5", 2 @ 39.5")
    Srixon Z745 (5-PW) w/ KBS $-Taper X 130 Black
    Hand Crafted wedges from Kyoei Raw Forged Blanks
    52deg w/ KBS $-Taper 130X PW Shaft
    56deg w/ KBS $-Taper 130X PW Shaft
    60deg w/ KBS $-Taper 130X 8i Shaft
    Putter: Odyssey Havok
  • TollBrosTollBros Overseer of the Test Range  4859Sponsors Posts: 4,859
    Joined:  #79
    J13 wrote:

    TollBros wrote:

    J13 wrote:

    TollBros wrote:


    Emillios data added.




    During these tests do players find themselves switching based on results? In Emillios case there are several shafts he hits better then his current setup especially the Aldila Black Mamba.




    Sometimes. As a very good player you certainly know that the trust you build for a combo under pressure means more than data on a driving range. Some guys will swap instantly, others will need to "course prove" the shaft for several rounds before they consider changing a trusted combo. Speaking for myself, I personally don't always care what's the longest. I care what I can control under pressure and what I trust to not have a big miss in it. We are all chasing distance of course, but that distance has to come with reasonable accuracy and trust under the gun. Emillio should switch to the Black Mamba, and he is testing it out more with good results, but if you stuck him in a $5000 game today, he would play the combo that has taken plenty of money in the past. Next week, that may be a different story.




    That makes sense i was just curious as i know when you see shiny numbers on Trackman it's easy to get carried away. For me Trackman is a great tool but it's all about what it does on the course when i hit 1 shot not 20 in a row.






    Exactly. It's easy to get in a groove hitting 20-30 drivers back to back. The real test is trusting it when you haven't hit it for 45 minutes and need to pipe one.

    FirePro wrote:


    do you happen to have the notes for Swing Type: (Rickey Z., 112mph) the chart looks pretty close to what I would expect but I am just curious of the players feedback on feel




    Yes. I'll be posting that info today.
    Posted:
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  • TPowellTPowell  157Members Posts: 157
    Joined:  #80
    This makes me feel better about buying a 2016 M2 (new) for about $150 off Global Golf not long ago. It has the stock Pro 60 stiff shaft in it and I know I'll change it out but just the head is worth that IMO. My question is where are you guys going to get fitted for all of these exotic shafts? I'm an indoorphobe when it comes to golf so has to be a driving range for me. Do your local pro's and such have a lot of options shaft wise?
    Posted:
  • JStangJStang  2577Members Posts: 2,577
    Joined:  #81
    TPowell wrote:


    This makes me feel better about buying a 2016 M2 (new) for about $150 off Global Golf not long ago. It has the stock Pro 60 stiff shaft in it and I know I'll change it out but just the head is worth that IMO. My question is where are you guys going to get fitted for all of these exotic shafts? I'm an indoorphobe when it comes to golf so has to be a driving range for me. Do your local pro's and such have a lot of options shaft wise?




    It's tough to find someone that will have all of these shaft. I have personally gravitated toward the Mitsubishi shafts after being an Aldila guy over the past few years and I have been driving the ball as well as I have in years. Find one that you think will work for your swing in the classifieds or contact TollBros. If it doesn't work out, you will only lose a handful of dollars after you resell.
    Posted:
    '16 M2 Rogue Fairway | 915H 2 & 3 | 718 AP2 | Vokey SM6 52, 58 | Scotty SS Newport 2 350
  • TollBrosTollBros Overseer of the Test Range  4859Sponsors Posts: 4,859
    Joined:  edited May 24, 2017 #82
    JStang wrote:

    TPowell wrote:


    This makes me feel better about buying a 2016 M2 (new) for about $150 off Global Golf not long ago. It has the stock Pro 60 stiff shaft in it and I know I'll change it out but just the head is worth that IMO. My question is where are you guys going to get fitted for all of these exotic shafts? I'm an indoorphobe when it comes to golf so has to be a driving range for me. Do your local pro's and such have a lot of options shaft wise?




    It's tough to find someone that will have all of these shaft. I have personally gravitated toward the Mitsubishi shafts after being an Aldila guy over the past few years and I have been driving the ball as well as I have in years. Find one that you think will work for your swing in the classifieds or contact TollBros. If it doesn't work out, you will only lose a handful of dollars after you resell.




    That's pretty much right on. Nobody is going to have tour only product for you to get fit into. The rare stuff is for guys who like to tinker, experiment, or know what type of profile they like or need and want to try out the really good stuff. Buy it, try it, and in most cases with the rare profiles, you don't lose much if anything on the resale if you don't like it. Of course if you buy it from someone with deep knowledge of the product, they can also help you make an informed decision about what might work best.
    Posted:
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  • gprointraininggprointraining Your Local Lowe's Paint Desk Golfer  886Members Posts: 886
    Joined:  edited May 25, 2017 #83
    TollBros wrote:

    JStang wrote:

    TPowell wrote:


    This makes me feel better about buying a 2016 M2 (new) for about $150 off Global Golf not long ago. It has the stock Pro 60 stiff shaft in it and I know I'll change it out but just the head is worth that IMO. My question is where are you guys going to get fitted for all of these exotic shafts? I'm an indoorphobe when it comes to golf so has to be a driving range for me. Do your local pro's and such have a lot of options shaft wise?




    It's tough to find someone that will have all of these shaft. I have personally gravitated toward the Mitsubishi shafts after being an Aldila guy over the past few years and I have been driving the ball as well as I have in years. Find one that you think will work for your swing in the classifieds or contact TollBros. If it doesn't work out, you will only lose a handful of dollars after you resell.




    That's pretty much right on. Nobody is going to have tour only product for you to get fit into. The rare stuff is for guys who like to tinker, experiment, or know what type of profile they like or need and want to try out the really good stuff. Buy it, try it, and in most cases with the rare profiles, you don't lose much if anything on the resale if you don't like it. Of course if you buy it from someone with deep knowledge of the product, they can also help you make an informed decision about what might work best.




    Hey, is there any way you (TollBros) can PM Me instead of ignore me? You seem to have unlimited time to post on this thread but can't ship the heads I bought from you OR refund my money. Stop being a flake and get back to me.
    Posted:
    TaylorMade M2 (2016) 9.5* / 44.25" / Mitsubishi Kuro Kage TINI 70X
    TaylorMade M2 Tour 15* / 42.25" / Aldila RIP Beta 80 X
    Callaway Epic Sub Zero 18* / 41.25" / Diamana RedBoard 80x
    Adams RED 20* hybrid / 40" / Fubuki Alpha 85X
    Adams Tour 4-P / Nippon Modus3 Tour 120x
    Scratch D/S Chrome 52* Dynamic Gold S200
    Callaway PM Grind 58* Dynamic Gold S400
    Taylormade Tour Issue Manta Ray / 32.5"
    TaylorMade TP5x
  • jleduc2200jleduc2200  211Members Posts: 211
    Joined:  #84
    Stop, do not use this thread to try and call out Toll. This is a great thread with lots of info many of us are really interested in. Toll is a great guy who has been helpful to many members here on WRX and he has his own job and things going on in life. If he doesn't respond he's likely traveling or busy with work and has always been respectful and quick to reply to PMs, even if I wasn't buying anything from him and he apologized for the delayed responses.



    Please PM Toll and resolve outside of this thread. He is a substantial contributor here and a well respected member of this community, so please give him the chance to make things right. I'm sure there's a reasonable explanation for the delay. Life happens to all of us. Lets keep this thread going in the right direction and keep this a good community for all of us golfers.
    Posted:
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    Mizuno MP 25 - 4-PW KBS C-Taper 120 S
    Vokey SM6 50*, 54* and 58* - Dynamic Gold Tour Issue S400
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    Titleist Pro V1x[/font]
  • gprointraininggprointraining Your Local Lowe's Paint Desk Golfer  886Members Posts: 886
    Joined:  edited May 25, 2017 #85
    jleduc2200 wrote:


    Stop, do not use this thread to try and call out Toll. This is a great thread with lots of info many of us are really interested in. Toll is a great guy who has been helpful to many members here on WRX and he has his own job and things going on in life. If he doesn't respond he's likely traveling or busy with work and has always been respectful and quick to reply to PMs, even if I wasn't buying anything from him and he apologized for the delayed responses.



    Please PM Toll and resolve outside of this thread. He is a substantial contributor here and a well respected member of this community, so please give him the chance to make things right. I'm sure there's a reasonable explanation for the delay. Life happens to all of us. Lets keep this thread going in the right direction and keep this a good community for all of us golfers.




    No, see, I have PM'd him, REPEATEDLY. He won't reply. I've sent him 5 messages since Monday, and he has plenty of time to reply on this thread, but none to get back to me, and in the meanwhile I'm out $325. While I agree with your sentiment, He is not acting like a well respected member of this community, and since he won't reply to PM's, I chose this thread, in which he has been able to post since Monday to try to get his attention.
    Posted:
    TaylorMade M2 (2016) 9.5* / 44.25" / Mitsubishi Kuro Kage TINI 70X
    TaylorMade M2 Tour 15* / 42.25" / Aldila RIP Beta 80 X
    Callaway Epic Sub Zero 18* / 41.25" / Diamana RedBoard 80x
    Adams RED 20* hybrid / 40" / Fubuki Alpha 85X
    Adams Tour 4-P / Nippon Modus3 Tour 120x
    Scratch D/S Chrome 52* Dynamic Gold S200
    Callaway PM Grind 58* Dynamic Gold S400
    Taylormade Tour Issue Manta Ray / 32.5"
    TaylorMade TP5x
  • J13J13 Dad golf  15748Members Posts: 15,748
    Joined:  #86
    jleduc2200 wrote:


    Stop, do not use this thread to try and call out Toll. This is a great thread with lots of info many of us are really interested in. Toll is a great guy who has been helpful to many members here on WRX and he has his own job and things going on in life. If he doesn't respond he's likely traveling or busy with work and has always been respectful and quick to reply to PMs, even if I wasn't buying anything from him and he apologized for the delayed responses.



    Please PM Toll and resolve outside of this thread. He is a substantial contributor here and a well respected member of this community, so please give him the chance to make things right. I'm sure there's a reasonable explanation for the delay. Life happens to all of us. Lets keep this thread going in the right direction and keep this a good community for all of us golfers.




    With all due respect your dead wrong. I don't know the situation but if you have time to post in a thread then you have time to respond to a customer who PM's you about not receiving what he paid for. Now I don't know any details and I'm not claiming to but I'm sure Toll will take care of this and make it right. Life happens and mistakes are easily made.
    Posted:
    Callaway Epic Flash Triple Diamond 9* / Mitsubishi Tensei White 70TX
    Callaway EF 3+ w/ HZRDUS Black 75 6.5
    Srixon 745's 4-PW / Modus Tour 120 TX
    Callaway MD3 50, 54, 60 / Modus 125
    Odyssey Stroke Lab Double Wide Flow Neck 35.5" (counter weight removed)
    Srixon Zstar XV
    GolfWRX WITB Podcast - Irons reveal 11/14/18 http://www.golfwrx.c...utm_content=sub
    GolfWrx WITB Podcast 2017 : http://www.golfwrx.com/482668/tgtg-golfwrx-forum-member-j13-talks-witb-and-club-testing/
    WITB- http://www.golfwrx.c.../page__st__1590

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  • sixtysevensixtysevensixtysevensixtyseven  2028Members Posts: 2,028 BST Banned
    Joined:  edited May 25, 2017 #87
    I'd love some more of this testing but I'd really like to see it come from an unbiased source. Tollbros is very pro Mitsubishi to the point that every tester has a Mitsubishi product in their personal driver so it would stand to reason that they will also skew the feedback in favor of the MRC product since they've already decided that they prefer it.



    The numbers don't lie though so it's still cool to see that data.



    PS Sorry for being on-topic.
    Posted:
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  • hwu1hwu1  38Members Posts: 38
    Joined:  #88
    I don't see how JT being pro Mitsubishi has anything to do with the other testers using MRC shafts in their personal drivers.
    Posted:
  • sixtysevensixtysevensixtysevensixtyseven  2028Members Posts: 2,028 BST Banned
    Joined:  edited May 25, 2017 #89
    hwu1 wrote:


    I don't see how JT being pro Mitsubishi has anything to do with the other testers using MRC shafts in their personal drivers.




    I played Aldila exclusively in my woods and hybrids for about 6 years. It was very easy for me to move from profile to profile within the Aldila offerings but I hated trying different makes because they just didn't feel the right. Now I am having the same experience with Graphite Design. I can switch between a TP, and GP, and a DI without too much of a learning curve but when I throw the Tensei Pro White or the T1100 in my driver it takes me a few sessions to adjust to their feel. If I work with them a little I could adjust but I wouldn't be able to give them a fair review if I tested them side by side because I would lean towards the Graphite Design product.



    I owned a very high volume shop so I've fit a lot of people over 20 years. People gravitate towards what they're comfortable with and resist change. Feel and player feedback is very subjective so doing testing with players who all have decided that Mitsubishi product is good enough for their gamer driver will give you skewed results.



    Now the LM data should be objective but we all know how when you're not comfortable with a club it doesn't perform for you no matter how perfectly it fits you. I'm not saying this is the case with any of the testers but it would've been nice to see some data from a little more diverse group as opposed to a bunch of guys with MRC shafts in their current gamers.
    Posted:
  • hwu1hwu1  38Members Posts: 38
    Joined:  #90

    hwu1 wrote:


    I don't see how JT being pro Mitsubishi has anything to do with the other testers using MRC shafts in their personal drivers.




    I played Aldila exclusively in my woods and hybrids for about 6 years. It was very easy for me to move from profile to profile within the Aldila offerings but I hated trying different makes because they just didn't feel the right. Now I am having the same experience with Graphite Design. I can switch between a TP, and GP, and a DI without too much of a learning curve but when I throw the Tensei Pro White or the T1100 in my driver it takes me a few sessions to adjust to their feel. If I work with them a little I could adjust but I wouldn't be able to give them a fair review if I tested them side by side because I would lean towards the Graphite Design product.



    I owned a very high volume shop so I've fit a lot of people over 20 years. People gravitate towards what they're comfortable with and resist change. Feel and player feedback is very subjective so doing testing with players who all have decided that Mitsubishi product is good enough for their gamer driver will give you skewed results.



    Now the LM data should be objective but we all know how when you're not comfortable with a club it doesn't perform for you no matter how perfectly it fits you. I'm not saying this is the case with any of the testers but it would've been nice to see some data from a little more diverse group as opposed to a bunch of guys with MRC shafts in their current gamers.




    True, if I was being asked to test a wide variety of shafts I would certainly feel more comfortable with certain brands vs others but Toll and his group test clubs for a living so I would think that they're better than most to handle this type of test.
    Posted:
  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
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  • sixtysevensixtysevensixtysevensixtyseven  2028Members Posts: 2,028 BST Banned
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    hwu1 wrote:


    hwu1 wrote:


    I don't see how JT being pro Mitsubishi has anything to do with the other testers using MRC shafts in their personal drivers.




    I played Aldila exclusively in my woods and hybrids for about 6 years. It was very easy for me to move from profile to profile within the Aldila offerings but I hated trying different makes because they just didn't feel the right. Now I am having the same experience with Graphite Design. I can switch between a TP, and GP, and a DI without too much of a learning curve but when I throw the Tensei Pro White or the T1100 in my driver it takes me a few sessions to adjust to their feel. If I work with them a little I could adjust but I wouldn't be able to give them a fair review if I tested them side by side because I would lean towards the Graphite Design product.



    I owned a very high volume shop so I've fit a lot of people over 20 years. People gravitate towards what they're comfortable with and resist change. Feel and player feedback is very subjective so doing testing with players who all have decided that Mitsubishi product is good enough for their gamer driver will give you skewed results.



    Now the LM data should be objective but we all know how when you're not comfortable with a club it doesn't perform for you no matter how perfectly it fits you. I'm not saying this is the case with any of the testers but it would've been nice to see some data from a little more diverse group as opposed to a bunch of guys with MRC shafts in their current gamers.




    True, if I was being asked to test a wide variety of shafts I would certainly feel more comfortable with certain brands vs others but Toll and his group test clubs for a living so I would think that they're better than most to handle this type of test.




    Like I said you really need to take testing results with a grain of salt when they're coming from a group of people who have already decided that MRC product fits them the best, however, if they are all professional testers maybe there is a chance that this is more objective than I'm giving it credit for.



    Before I even opened the thread I knew there would be a way it would lean towards MRC anyway so I wasn't expecting much.
    Posted:
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