How long was Hogan's wrist bowed after impact?

[JD3]

I think the general assumption is that he kept it bowed long into the follow thru. Although it was bowed at impact (and he stressed this as a fundamental in 5L's), I think from watching videos it's clear it didn't stay in that condition for long. So brief I would contend that at impact it was in the process of returning to cupped. Which is wholly consistent with the "side arm throw" concept, and "wish I had 3 right hands" comment.

 

Discuss.

[MeikoKaji]

I think the general assumption is that he kept it bowed long into the follow thru. Although it was bowed at impact (and he stressed this as a fundamental in 5L's), I think from watching videos it's clear it didn't stay in that condition for long. So brief I would contend that at impact it was in the process of returning to cupped. Which is wholly consistent with the "side arm throw" concept, and "wish I had 3 right hands" comment.

 

Discuss.

i couldn't find the emoji for crickets. anyway, i've been obsessed with this lately and think that is true. i don't think it is healthy or natural or powerful to hold too long nor is it consistent or good if too early.

 

i've been watching hours of mike austin videos and fully believe now that the left shoulder shouldn't 'break the plane' because you want the right hand extended longer. if your posture is correct from stance to impact then your hands are in a good place and the lead hand flexion turns to extension just past impact.

[JD3]

I think the general assumption is that he kept it bowed long into the follow thru. Although it was bowed at impact (and he stressed this as a fundamental in 5L's), I think from watching videos it's clear it didn't stay in that condition for long. So brief I would contend that at impact it was in the process of returning to cupped. Which is wholly consistent with the "side arm throw" concept, and "wish I had 3 right hands" comment.

 

Discuss.

i couldn't find the emoji for crickets. anyway, i've been obsessed with this lately and think that is true. i don't think it is healthy or natural or powerful to hold too long nor is it consistent or good if too early.

 

i've been watching hours of mike austin videos and fully believe now that the left shoulder shouldn't 'break the plane' because you want the right hand extended longer. if your posture is correct from stance to impact then your hands are in a good place and the lead hand flexion turns to extension just past impact.

Someone posted this provocative article in a different thread, Johnny Miller saying Hogan made this move.

 

http://www.golf.com/instruction/johnny-miller-how-ben-hogan-fought-his-hook

[MeikoKaji]

I think the general assumption is that he kept it bowed long into the follow thru. Although it was bowed at impact (and he stressed this as a fundamental in 5L's), I think from watching videos it's clear it didn't stay in that condition for long. So brief I would contend that at impact it was in the process of returning to cupped. Which is wholly consistent with the "side arm throw" concept, and "wish I had 3 right hands" comment.

 

Discuss.

i couldn't find the emoji for crickets. anyway, i've been obsessed with this lately and think that is true. i don't think it is healthy or natural or powerful to hold too long nor is it consistent or good if too early.

 

i've been watching hours of mike austin videos and fully believe now that the left shoulder shouldn't 'break the plane' because you want the right hand extended longer. if your posture is correct from stance to impact then your hands are in a good place and the lead hand flexion turns to extension just past impact.

Someone posted this provocative article in a different thread, Johnny Miller saying Hogan made this move.

 

http://www.golf.com/...fought-his-hook

it's an interesting read but the picture doesn't match the commentary or am i missing something? it seems to me that (depending when you do the move) it would encourage straightness. i.e. the later you do the move the straighter but doing that early would be a bad thing.

[JD3]

I think the general assumption is that he kept it bowed long into the follow thru. Although it was bowed at impact (and he stressed this as a fundamental in 5L's), I think from watching videos it's clear it didn't stay in that condition for long. So brief I would contend that at impact it was in the process of returning to cupped. Which is wholly consistent with the "side arm throw" concept, and "wish I had 3 right hands" comment.

 

Discuss.

i couldn't find the emoji for crickets. anyway, i've been obsessed with this lately and think that is true. i don't think it is healthy or natural or powerful to hold too long nor is it consistent or good if too early.

 

i've been watching hours of mike austin videos and fully believe now that the left shoulder shouldn't 'break the plane' because you want the right hand extended longer. if your posture is correct from stance to impact then your hands are in a good place and the lead hand flexion turns to extension just past impact.

Someone posted this provocative article in a different thread, Johnny Miller saying Hogan made this move.

 

http://www.golf.com/...fought-his-hook

it's an interesting read but the picture doesn't match the commentary or am i missing something? it seems to me that (depending when you do the move) it would encourage straightness. i.e. the later you do the move the straighter but doing that early would be a bad thing.

it doesn't but if you watch in particular the down the line swings you'll see the front wrist is cupped into the follow thru

 

 

like anything, as long as you keep with the flow and don't stop your body prematurely, the club won't bottom out early. think of a pitcher, whose wrist angles definitely change during release, if he were to suddenly stop he'd end up throwing it over the catcher's head. Which is the equivalent to a golfer hitting it fat, since a pitchers arm is above the shoulder, golfers under

[MeikoKaji]

I think the general assumption is that he kept it bowed long into the follow thru. Although it was bowed at impact (and he stressed this as a fundamental in 5L's), I think from watching videos it's clear it didn't stay in that condition for long. So brief I would contend that at impact it was in the process of returning to cupped. Which is wholly consistent with the "side arm throw" concept, and "wish I had 3 right hands" comment.

 

Discuss.

i couldn't find the emoji for crickets. anyway, i've been obsessed with this lately and think that is true. i don't think it is healthy or natural or powerful to hold too long nor is it consistent or good if too early.

 

i've been watching hours of mike austin videos and fully believe now that the left shoulder shouldn't 'break the plane' because you want the right hand extended longer. if your posture is correct from stance to impact then your hands are in a good place and the lead hand flexion turns to extension just past impact.

Someone posted this provocative article in a different thread, Johnny Miller saying Hogan made this move.

 

http://www.golf.com/...fought-his-hook

it's an interesting read but the picture doesn't match the commentary or am i missing something? it seems to me that (depending when you do the move) it would encourage straightness. i.e. the later you do the move the straighter but doing that early would be a bad thing.

it doesn't but if you watch in particular the down the line swings you'll see the front wrist is cupped into the follow thru

 

 

like anything, as long as you keep with the flow and don't stop your body prematurely, the club won't bottom out early. think of a pitcher, whose wrist angles definitely change during release, if he were to suddenly stop he'd end up throwing it into the ground too

fun starts at :39. Sorry, my first upload. I've given up on the 'hold' release as it is a misnomer and caused tennis/golf elbows. So, I'm just trying to let it happen. Helps a lot and strike is improving but it's inconsistent off the turf, great off the tee (duh). Anyway, seems hogan is more under whereas I am around. More right forearm rotation elbow fwd in the bs has helped a lot. But I still feel I missing something.

 

[Kirk Land]

I think the general assumption is that he kept it bowed long into the follow thru. Although it was bowed at impact (and he stressed this as a fundamental in 5L's), I think from watching videos it's clear it didn't stay in that condition for long. So brief I would contend that at impact it was in the process of returning to cupped. Which is wholly consistent with the "side arm throw" concept, and "wish I had 3 right hands" comment.

 

Discuss.

i couldn't find the emoji for crickets. anyway, i've been obsessed with this lately and think that is true. i don't think it is healthy or natural or powerful to hold too long nor is it consistent or good if too early.

 

i've been watching hours of mike austin videos and fully believe now that the left shoulder shouldn't 'break the plane' because you want the right hand extended longer. if your posture is correct from stance to impact then your hands are in a good place and the lead hand flexion turns to extension just past impact.

Someone posted this provocative article in a different thread, Johnny Miller saying Hogan made this move.

 

http://www.golf.com/...fought-his-hook

 

IMO, JM is describing Chuck Q's, snapping a towel with soft hands and wrists:

(note height of Ben Hogans left shoulder in impact area, behind himself)

 

https://rotaryswing....d=article-popup

 

Chucks observation that our body goes in opposite direction of the golf club seems on the money.

ie in BS our hands and arms move club away from target, while right shoulder turns toward target

and in DS, our body turns away from the ball, while we bring club to the ball.

 

 

 

Ben Hogan said: Reverse every natural instinct and do the opposite of what you are inclined to do, and you will probably come very close to having a perfect golf swing.

 

and Dunaway demonstrates the same towel snapping move with fast. soft wrist.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=l4lJtdVDOSw

[JD3]

fun starts at :39. Sorry, my first upload. I've given up on the 'hold' release as it is a misnomer and caused tennis/golf elbows. So, I'm just trying to let it happen. Helps a lot and strike is improving but it's inconsistent off the turf, great off the tee (duh). Anyway, seems hogan is more under whereas I am around. More right forearm rotation elbow fwd in the bs has helped a lot. But I still feel I missing something.

 

Im not an instructor or pro, so take it what its worth. That looks like a nice smooth release to me. If I gave a one piece of advice, is to work on your grip somewhat. It looks too strong w/ both hands, and in the palms not the fingers. More in the fingers and a bit weaker Im guessing would help your wrists c0ck better, and retain a bit more lag on the downswing.

[MeikoKaji]

fun starts at :39. Sorry, my first upload. I've given up on the 'hold' release as it is a misnomer and caused tennis/golf elbows. So, I'm just trying to let it happen. Helps a lot and strike is improving but it's inconsistent off the turf, great off the tee (duh). Anyway, seems hogan is more under whereas I am around. More right forearm rotation elbow fwd in the bs has helped a lot. But I still feel I missing something.

 

Im not an instructor or pro, so take it what its worth. That looks like a nice smooth release to me. If I gave a one piece of advice, is to work on your grip somewhat. It looks too strong w/ both hands, and in the palms not the fingers. More in the fingers and a bit weaker Im guessing would help your wrists c0ck better, and retain a bit more lag on the downswing.

cheers. actually, one thing that has helped a lot is to ensure the clubface is closed (actually, more square not open) at p6. that coupled with more rotation in the trail forearm (trail elbow foreward) on the bs means that the lag maintains for longer and release is later but it also makes being square at p6 that much more important or it's right of right.

 

me likey likey. hook is gone for good now miss is a pull or pull slice. but the power is great. i'll keep workin' on it.

[MeikoKaji]

I think the general assumption is that he kept it bowed long into the follow thru. Although it was bowed at impact (and he stressed this as a fundamental in 5L's), I think from watching videos it's clear it didn't stay in that condition for long. So brief I would contend that at impact it was in the process of returning to cupped. Which is wholly consistent with the "side arm throw" concept, and "wish I had 3 right hands" comment.

 

Discuss.

i couldn't find the emoji for crickets. anyway, i've been obsessed with this lately and think that is true. i don't think it is healthy or natural or powerful to hold too long nor is it consistent or good if too early.

 

i've been watching hours of mike austin videos and fully believe now that the left shoulder shouldn't 'break the plane' because you want the right hand extended longer. if your posture is correct from stance to impact then your hands are in a good place and the lead hand flexion turns to extension just past impact.

Someone posted this provocative article in a different thread, Johnny Miller saying Hogan made this move.

 

http://www.golf.com/...fought-his-hook

 

IMO, JM is describing Martin Q's, snapping a towel with soft hands and wrists:

(note height of Ben Hogans left shoulder in impact area, behind himself)

 

https://rotaryswing....d=article-popup

 

Martins observation that our body goes in opposite direction of the golf club seems on the money.

ie in BS our hands and arms move club away from target, while right shoulder turns toward target

and in DS, our body turns away from the ball, while we bring club to the ball.

 

 

 

Ben Hogan said: Reverse every natural instinct and do the opposite of what you are inclined to do, and you will probably come very close to having a perfect golf swing.

 

and Dunaway demonstrates the same towel snapping move with fast. soft wrist.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=l4lJtdVDOSw

so i don't disagree conceptually but my question is how to ensure your hands are actually at the right place at impact every time? i'm not worried about power, i want consistent power. i watched all the austin/dunaway videos and learned a lot but mike and mike were primarily known for hitting the ball miles and not spearing a 7i into a tight pin.

 

i think this video is where i am at currently.

 

[JD3]

Of the current top pros I think Jason Day makes the most obvious "right hand throw"

 

[Kirk Land]

I think the general assumption is that he kept it bowed long into the follow thru. Although it was bowed at impact (and he stressed this as a fundamental in 5L's), I think from watching videos it's clear it didn't stay in that condition for long. So brief I would contend that at impact it was in the process of returning to cupped. Which is wholly consistent with the "side arm throw" concept, and "wish I had 3 right hands" comment.

 

Discuss.

i couldn't find the emoji for crickets. anyway, i've been obsessed with this lately and think that is true. i don't think it is healthy or natural or powerful to hold too long nor is it consistent or good if too early.

 

i've been watching hours of mike austin videos and fully believe now that the left shoulder shouldn't 'break the plane' because you want the right hand extended longer. if your posture is correct from stance to impact then your hands are in a good place and the lead hand flexion turns to extension just past impact.

Someone posted this provocative article in a different thread, Johnny Miller saying Hogan made this move.

 

http://www.golf.com/...fought-his-hook

 

IMO, JM is describing Martin Q's, snapping a towel with soft hands and wrists:

(note height of Ben Hogans left shoulder in impact area, behind himself)

 

https://rotaryswing....d=article-popup

 

Martins observation that our body goes in opposite direction of the golf club seems on the money.

ie in BS our hands and arms move club away from target, while right shoulder turns toward target

and in DS, our body turns away from the ball, while we bring club to the ball.

 

 

 

Ben Hogan said: Reverse every natural instinct and do the opposite of what you are inclined to do, and you will probably come very close to having a perfect golf swing.

 

and Dunaway demonstrates the same towel snapping move with fast. soft wrist.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=l4lJtdVDOSw

so i don't disagree conceptually but my question is how to ensure your hands are actually at the right place at impact every time? i'm not worried about power, i want consistent power. i watched all the austin/dunaway videos and learned a lot but mike and mike were primarily known for hitting the ball miles and not spearing a 7i into a tight pin.

 

i think this video is where i am at currently.

 

 

Lee is hard to understand at times, but he is consistently accurate and very long

His left heel is one of keys and his left shoulder is so high through impact, very much like snapping the towel.

 

Great video of young Jack N's swing, also solid left heel and high left shoulder through impact, with soft hands

Release is down.

If impact is at end of ROM of ulnar deviation, you know your low point every time.

 

 

btw, Lee is getting his own website next month.

[JD3]

wrt "when" the throw happens I have 2 guidelines:

 

1. it's unquestionable at impact a good strike has bent/flat leading wrist. Retaining the flying wedge to impact is a good reference, and also allows us to maintain leverage

 

2. the "throw" happens from impact to the point when the hands are about chest high, setting up a powerful follow-thru with the clubface remaining square to the arc

[MeikoKaji]

wrt "when" the throw happens I have 2 guidelines:

 

1. it's unquestionable at impact a good strike has bent/flat leading wrist. Retaining the flying wedge to impact is a good reference, and also allows us to maintain leverage

 

2. the "throw" happens from impact to the point when the hands are about chest high, setting up a powerful follow-thru with the clubface remaining square to the arc

managed to wack a few this weekend and even applied in a tournament. i would have won but i 3 putted 4 times :swoon:

 

so, ball striking was great. hit nearly every fairway. the focus on irons has been to reverse k more (for me) at setup and ensure i can get the left shoulder up and out and the right shoulder down and in. therefore, i'm releasing later. ball flight was higher (for me) and noticeably longer. i overclubbed a couple of time, particularly with short irons. misses were just pushes and pulls not hooks or slices.

 

most noticeable was strikes were all in the center of the club. so, even misses were pretty good. i used to get left too much and toe shots or over correct and thin them.

 

so, i'm pretty happy with it and will keep doing it.

 

ps. what happened to kirk land, he was banned in the middle of this?

[baloo]

For a fraction of a second, unless he's hitting a specialty shot. I'm too lazy to provide evidence, but it seems pretty easy to see when watching video of him. His left wrist seems to cup shortly after impact.

 

 

[JD3]

For a fraction of a second, unless he's hitting a specialty shot. I'm too lazy to provide evidence, but it seems pretty easy to see when watching video of him. His left wrist seems to cup shortly after impact.

The fine tuning that seems to work best for me is to think of the "flip" happening when my hands are just about shoulder height in the follow thru.

[oscar@wrx]

I think the general assumption is that he kept it bowed long into the follow thru. Although it was bowed at impact (and he stressed this as a fundamental in 5L's), I think from watching videos it's clear it didn't stay in that condition for long. So brief I would contend that at impact it was in the process of returning to cupped. Which is wholly consistent with the "side arm throw" concept, and "wish I had 3 right hands" comment.

 

Discuss.

i couldn't find the emoji for crickets. anyway, i've been obsessed with this lately and think that is true. i don't think it is healthy or natural or powerful to hold too long nor is it consistent or good if too early.

 

i've been watching hours of mike austin videos and fully believe now that the left shoulder shouldn't 'break the plane' because you want the right hand extended longer. if your posture is correct from stance to impact then your hands are in a good place and the lead hand flexion turns to extension just past impact.

Someone posted this provocative article in a different thread, Johnny Miller saying Hogan made this move.

 

http://www.golf.com/...fought-his-hook

it's an interesting read but the picture doesn't match the commentary or am i missing something? it seems to me that (depending when you do the move) it would encourage straightness. i.e. the later you do the move the straighter but doing that early would be a bad thing.

it doesn't but if you watch in particular the down the line swings you'll see the front wrist is cupped into the follow thru

 

 

like anything, as long as you keep with the flow and don't stop your body prematurely, the club won't bottom out early. think of a pitcher, whose wrist angles definitely change during release, if he were to suddenly stop he'd end up throwing it over the catcher's head. Which is the equivalent to a golfer hitting it fat, since a pitchers arm is above the shoulder, golfers under

You hit it fat if you stop/slow the pivot because the left shoulder will be too low at impact. If you keep going with the pivot the left shoulder will be high enough at impact

[oscar@wrx]

For a fraction of a second, unless he's hitting a specialty shot. I'm too lazy to provide evidence, but it seems pretty easy to see when watching video of him. His left wrist seems to cup shortly after impact.

The fine tuning that seems to work best for me is to think of the "flip" happening when my hands are just about shoulder height in the follow thru.

Instead of that, why not just think of hand position at impact? More forward will be more bowed. More behind will be less bowed or even bit cupped. Shaft lean.

 

This way you don't impede or slow down the wrist unhinge and rolling action, which will slow down clubhead speed

[oscar@wrx]

By the way, why do you worry about bow or not bow? What's the benefit if any? Should be just for trajectory. More bowed=more shaft lean=lower trajectory

[MeikoKaji]

For a fraction of a second, unless he's hitting a specialty shot. I'm too lazy to provide evidence, but it seems pretty easy to see when watching video of him. His left wrist seems to cup shortly after impact.

The fine tuning that seems to work best for me is to think of the "flip" happening when my hands are just about shoulder height in the follow thru.

just keying off Monte's cast drill for all clubs not just driver had a great effect this week. I hit a lot more greens in regulation and had many looks at birdie. Had a realistic chance at shooting under par for the first time in a few years. The idea that the lag is maintained by actively trying to release it from the top makes sense vs trying to hold it which results in losing control of it. So, for the first time in a long time I was under control of the irons. On video it shows more lag maintained at impact without even trying.

[JD3]

I figure the rare overhead view would a good way to measure this. Couldnt find any of BH, but this compilation of four multiple major winners is very revealing. Even Palmer who was trying to hold off the release, displays a dramatic overtake of the left wrist by the right thru impact.

 

 

[MeikoKaji]

Nice post. I think the traditional camera angles don't tell us the full story. I saw Jon Rahm's video in slo mo at an odd angle where it was very obvious that was happeneing but it was smooth and gradual with no twisting or flipping.

[oscar@wrx]

I think Five Lessons is Hogan's basic swing which is a draw. Life Magazine is his high power fade swing.

 

In Five Lessons, Hogan said he wished he has 3 right hands. I think that doesn't mean nor he said he straightens his right hand or wrist.

 

Also, he said at impact the left wrist should be flat or slightly ahead or bowed. I think that doesn't mean nor did he say left wrist should be flat or bowed all the way nor for as long as possible.

 

I think a bowed wrist at impact just means later release than a flat or cupped one. More in to out than out to in.

 

Later release also means more shaft lean than an earlier one, right?