Shafting beads, why do/dont you use it?

[pitchinwedge]

Ok thanks. Is there anything else you'd recommend? Again, the black stuff works well enough but the color is the issue.

[Socrates]

Ok thanks. Is there anything else you'd recommend? Again, the black stuff works well enough but the color is the issue.

3M DP460 is the best out there IMO. It will cure off-white.

[pitchinwedge]

Good info! Thanks!

[Albatrosss]

Optimal bond line thickness ranges from 0.001 to 0.007 inches in general for adhesives. If a thicker bond is required for the application the optimal bond thickness can be maintained by adding glass microspheres into the adhesive. The microspheres will act like small islands for the adhesive maintaining optimal bond thickness. The need and mixture ratio for microspheres fillers need to be calculated from the actual bond thickness, microspheres size and optimal bond thickness for the adhesive to achieve maximum strength.

 

In other words, if shafting beads are used correctly the bond joint can be stronger. If it is used incorrectly the bond joint will be weaker.

[Thayneil]

Shafting beads are microballoons. Hollow glass spheres. By definition it creates porosity in the epoxy and reduces density. What do you guys think that does for the bond material strength? I know it doesn't increase it or 3M and every epoxy maker would sell such a product for industrial use.

 

I first became aware of microballoons back when working with RC modeling. It was standard practice to add the filler into the epoxy (or polyester resin) and then use it to make fillets, which by virtue of the filler was then easy to sand because it creates porosity.

 

That Bramptons 20-20 epoxy is very thin (low viscosity). You gotta be careful to only use it if the shaft to hosel fit is snug with low clearance. If there is a gap adding shafting beads would be the lesser of evils because the thin epoxy will run out of the joint and collect at the bottom of the hosel and go up the shaft tip if you don't thicken it up some.

 

we have very hot weather here.Unless epoxy is kept in the fridge etc is gets very thin

 

I mix mine in late afternoon and wait 20 minutes until it starts to thicken up before applying

 

applying when very warm just allows the expoy to move down the shaft and reduce bonding

 

as for strength,you are applying a filler which has no epoxy properties to it,to epoxy so the actual strength is reduced,However being thicker may allow more of the epoxy mixture to adhere against the head walls

[ForTourUseOnly]

Only use shafting beads/quick center if there is enough play in the shaft/hosel to warrant it, if there it it will act like a spacer and actually make the bond stronger.

 

A lot of the cast clubs these ays i find have really big hosels, Ping you need a special ferrule to get the shaft to sit straight, I remember a set of rocketblades that the ID of the hosel was .384 even with parallel tip shafts I was able to use shims to get a better fit. Callaway cast clubs seem to be big as well.

[Nudgster]

On 5/2/2017 at 7:53 PM, Albatross85 said:

On 5/2/2017 at 7:41 AM, Nessism said:

Shafting beads are microballoons. Hollow glass spheres. By definition it creates porosity in the epoxy and reduces density. What do you guys think that does for the bond material strength? I know it doesn't increase it or 3M and every epoxy maker would sell such a product for industrial use.

 

I first became aware of microballoons back when working with RC modeling. It was standard practice to add the filler into the epoxy (or polyester resin) and then use it to make fillets, which by virtue of the filler was then easy to sand because it creates porosity.

 

That Bramptons 20-20 epoxy is very thin (low viscosity). You gotta be careful to only use it if the shaft to hosel fit is snug with low clearance. If there is a gap adding shafting beads would be the lesser of evils because the thin epoxy will run out of the joint and collect at the bottom of the hosel and go up the shaft tip if you don't thicken it up some.

 

Bramptons 20/20 is one of the thicker epoxies. Not sure where you get thin from. 20/20 is all i use unless i run out and use gorilla glue epoxy. Compared to tour epoxy from golfworks and one of the 3ms i tried 20/20 when mixed properly is probably the thickest.

Gorilla Glue Epoxy is the strongest there is!!! Look at the strength ratio compared to others. Not even close. This is all I ever use.

[AzRoger]

42 minutes ago, Nudgster said:

Gorilla Glue Epoxy is the strongest there is!!! Look at the strength ratio compared to others. Not even close. This is all I ever use.

Would be curious to know what other epoxies you're comparing it to. Gorilla epoxy list a 3300psi shear strength, the epoxies I've used (3M, GolfWorks, JB Weld) list a higher shear strength than that.

[Nessism]

2 hours ago, Nudgster said:

Gorilla Glue Epoxy is the strongest there is!!! Look at the strength ratio compared to others. Not even close. This is all I ever use.

 

Are you joking?  Gorilla Glue epoxy doesn't publish lap shear strength, but some old data sheets suggest something in the 2000 psi range.

[charliebrown]

On 5/1/2017 at 9:03 AM, EHolm said:

On what do you base the reduced strength on? Just curious :)

Someone said it on the internet and therefore it becomes fact. It happens all the time. Unfortunately. 

[Nessism]

1 hour ago, charliebrown said:

Someone said it on the internet and therefore it becomes fact. It happens all the time. Unfortunately. 

 

You might want to go back and actually READ what's been written in this thread, instead of snarking without merit.

[charliebrown]

15 hours ago, Nessism said:

 

You might want to go back and actually READ what's been written in this thread, instead of snarking without merit.

Club assembly is not rocket science. Adhesives and additives have been used for many, many years without failure when used ACCORDING TO THE MANUFACTURER'S INSTRUCTIONS/RECOMMENDATIONS. Bonus is that golf club specific epoxies (long and quick cure) and are readily available thanks to online ordering if there is not a retail store in one's area. As for shafting beads, quick center, shims, etc. use them - when it's appropriate to do so. Granted, I've only assembled 100 or so golf clubs using a variety of everything I've listed with zero failures; as have some older/very experienced professional club makers I have met through the years. The biggest "sin" I have seen is using too much or too little epoxy. Better too much than too little I suppose, but I digress. My "snark" isn't personal. It's a generalization based on the tendency to overthink. I have to spank my OCD inner child from time to time. Bottom line: Use items that are specifically intended for club assembly -according to the directions and what is necessary to build a specific club. 

[Nessism]

17 minutes ago, charliebrown said:

Club assembly is not rocket science. Adhesives and additives have been used for many, many years without failure when used ACCORDING TO THE MANUFACTURER'S INSTRUCTIONS/RECOMMENDATIONS. Bonus is that golf club specific epoxies (long and quick cure) and are readily available thanks to online ordering if there is not a retail store in one's area. As for shafting beads, quick center, shims, etc. use them - when it's appropriate to do so. Granted, I've only assembled 100 or so golf clubs using a variety of everything I've listed with zero failures; as have some older/very experienced professional club makers I have met through the years. The biggest "sin" I have seen is using too much or too little epoxy. Better too much than too little I suppose, but I digress. My "snark" isn't personal. It's a generalization based on the tendency to overthink. I have to spank my OCD inner child from time to time. Bottom line: Use items that are specifically intended for club assembly -according to the directions and what is necessary to build a specific club. 

 

I've been building clubs since the mid 1990's, and "never had a failure"...until reshafting some Ping G410's a few years ago, when it took me multiple attempts before I figured out how to keep the heads from flying off.  The takeaway from that experience was to NOT take the assembly process for granted.

 

In the case of those Pings, the insertion depth is only about 1", and a good portion of that is bonding to a long collared ferule.  Below the ferrule, is a large clearance fit between the shaft and hosel wall.  My reason for mentioning this is because the prep work and adhesive used for one set of irons, may not work in clubs like those Pings.  

 

So when we are discussing club assembly in this venue, I'm going to push people towards best practice.  Gorilla epoxy and scraping off old epoxy with a blade will hold a set of Mizuno's together, clubs with a deep insertion depth and tight-fitting shaft to hosel clearance, but it won't work with those Ping's.  I now preach about abrading with fresh sandpaper, down to "white" metal, then cleaning with MEK or acetone, before bonding.  And use quality adhesive.

 

Regarding shafting beads, I have no idea how they became so popular, but just like using a heat gun to pull shafts, they are the wrong tool/material, for the job.

 

"Spacer beads" are useful in a lap joint, where the two surfaces being bonded are clamped together under force.  In this situation, the epoxy can be squeezed out, which is bad.  Spacer beads keep the adhesive in place, because the surfaces can't be pressed together until they touch.  This does increase bond strength.  But golf clubs, with a round shaft in a round hosel, with no clamp load, don't have this problem.  Adding spacer beads into the epoxy for building golf clubs will do nothing positive, and from my experience from lap shear tests, it actually decreases strength because it's just filler material.

 

If your epoxy is too thin, and running out of the joint, get a better NS "No Sag" adhesive.  Don't put beads in it to thicken.  And tiny spacer beads don't center a shaft in the hosel.  You need a shim, or maybe some "quick center" material, which uses larger particles.

 

Okay, rant over...

 

 

[ApostateDrive]

4 minutes ago, Nessism said:

...just like using a heat gun to pull shafts, they are the wrong tool/material, for the job.

 

This is contrary to what I've learned. Could you explain a bit more?

[Nessism]

1 hour ago, ApostateDrive said:

 

This is contrary to what I've learned. Could you explain a bit more?

 

Common heat guns typically have a wide mouth, which results in heat being spewed on the head proper and well up the shaft.  Using a torch on the other hand, pinpoints the heat, and focuses it on the hosel, where the bond joint is.  Use a torch and the epoxy will break down in about 15-20 seconds on an iron, or 5 seconds on a shaft adapter.  The head won't even get hot, other than the hosel.  You can twist off irons heads with your bare hand.  Don't try that using a heat gun, you will burn yourself.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by Nessism

[Stuart_G]

57 minutes ago, ApostateDrive said:

 

This is contrary to what I've learned. Could you explain a bit more?

 

With steel shafts, a heat gun is slow and inefficient - but doesn't really hurt the club or shaft.

 

With graphite shafts, the extra time it takes with a heat gun can make a big difference and increases the likelihood of overheating and damaging the shaft.  

 

The common (and dangerous) misconception is that using a lower temperature source is safer for graphite.  But it's actually the complete opposite.   How hot the actual shaft tip material gets is much more a function of the amount of time it takes to break the epoxy bond than the temperature applied to the hosel.   That's because the heat spreads through the metal hosel MUCH faster than it spreads across the epoxy layer and the shaft tip (different thermal conductivity).

Edited August 1, 2023 by Stuart_G

[charliebrown]

2 hours ago, Nessism said:

 

I've been building clubs since the mid 1990's, and "never had a failure"...until reshafting some Ping G410's a few years ago, when it took me multiple attempts before I figured out how to keep the heads from flying off.  The takeaway from that experience was to NOT take the assembly process for granted.

 

In the case of those Pings, the insertion depth is only about 1", and a good portion of that is bonding to a long collared ferule.  Below the ferrule, is a large clearance fit between the shaft and hosel wall.  My reason for mentioning this is because the prep work and adhesive used for one set of irons, may not work in clubs like those Pings.  

 

So when we are discussing club assembly in this venue, I'm going to push people towards best practice.  Gorilla epoxy and scraping off old epoxy with a blade will hold a set of Mizuno's together, clubs with a deep insertion depth and tight-fitting shaft to hosel clearance, but it won't work with those Ping's.  I now preach about abrading with fresh sandpaper, down to "white" metal, then cleaning with MEK or acetone, before bonding.  And use quality adhesive.

 

Regarding shafting beads, I have no idea how they became so popular, but just like using a heat gun to pull shafts, they are the wrong tool/material, for the job.

 

"Spacer beads" are useful in a lap joint, where the two surfaces being bonded are clamped together under force.  In this situation, the epoxy can be squeezed out, which is bad.  Spacer beads keep the adhesive in place, because the surfaces can't be pressed together until they touch.  This does increase bond strength.  But golf clubs, with a round shaft in a round hosel, with no clamp load, don't have this problem.  Adding spacer beads into the epoxy for building golf clubs will do nothing positive, and from my experience from lap shear tests, it actually decreases strength because it's just filler material.

 

If your epoxy is too thin, and running out of the joint, get a better NS "No Sag" adhesive.  Don't put beads in it to thicken.  And tiny spacer beads don't center a shaft in the hosel.  You need a shim, or maybe some "quick center" material, which uses larger particles.

 

Okay, rant over...

 

 

"I now preach about abrading with fresh sandpaper, down to "white" metal, then cleaning with MEK or acetone, before bonding.  And use quality adhesive."

 

And that's how it should be done every time. THIS should be "Sticky" for club building/repair. Pun not intended. 

[Nessism]

12 minutes ago, charliebrown said:

"I now preach about abrading with fresh sandpaper, down to "white" metal, then cleaning with MEK or acetone, before bonding.  And use quality adhesive."

 

And that's how it should be done every time. THIS should be "Sticky" for club building/repair. Pun not intended. 

 

 

 

 

[achappy]

2 hours ago, Nessism said:

 

Common heat guns typically have a wide mouth, which results in heat being spewed on the head proper and well up the shaft.  Using a torch on the other hand, pinpoints the heat, and focuses it on the hosel, where the bond joint is.  Use a torch and the epoxy will break down in about 15-20 seconds on an iron, or 5 seconds on a shaft adapter.  The head won't even get hot, other than the hosel.  You can twist off irons heads with your bare hand.  Don't try that using a heat gun, you will burn yourself.

 

 

 

 

 

Incorrect as I've been using a heat gun for over 20 years and can do a single head in the same amount of time and twist barehanded all the time.  I don't remember where I bought it but I believe it was from Golfsmith and it has a variable temperature dial and was recommended by many at the time as the heat gun to get for club work because the heat was concentrated.  I can't speak for the current ones being sold, but the one I have works perfectly well and I can pull a set of shafts, without cleaning, heads in about 10 minutes.  Faster if I'm just pulling and leaving alone.

[Mp14forlife]

Having been a lifelong heat gun user, the only thing I'd use a heat gun for now is removing grip tape. Torch is the way! 

[Nessism]

17 hours ago, achappy said:

 

Incorrect as I've been using a heat gun for over 20 years and can do a single head in the same amount of time and twist barehanded all the time.  I don't remember where I bought it but I believe it was from Golfsmith and it has a variable temperature dial and was recommended by many at the time as the heat gun to get for club work because the heat was concentrated.  I can't speak for the current ones being sold, but the one I have works perfectly well and I can pull a set of shafts, without cleaning, heads in about 10 minutes.  Faster if I'm just pulling and leaving alone.

 

A heat gun with a funnel tip will focus the heat reasonably well.  I wouldn't use one otherwise, since the wide mouth spews heat over a wide area.  And realize that the gun needs to be designed to use the tip, otherwise it can overheat the gun itself, and burn it out.

 

And if you dig through the archives and read posts from Tom Wishon, he unequivocally stated here that heat guns should NOT be used to pull heads.

 

 

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by Nessism

[charliebrown]

3 hours ago, Nessism said:

 

 

 

 

I own all of those items...and more. Everyone building/repairing clubs should own those. Hosel brushes are a nice addition too. 

[achappy]

2 hours ago, Nessism said:

 

A heat gun with a funnel tip will focus the heat reasonably well.  I wouldn't use one otherwise.  And realize that the gun needs to be designed to use the tip, otherwise it can overheat the gun itself, and burn it out.

 

And if you dig through the archives and read posts from Tom Wishon, he unequivocally stated here that heat guns should NOT be used to pull heads.

 

 

 

 

The one I bought was one that was specifically recommended by many club makers at the time. If I remember correctly, it had an output that was the same or close to a butane torch which negated the issues people had with heat guns.  This goes back to the old GEA forum when I got started.  I tried a butane torch and wasn't a fan and at the time I thought my repairs would be limited so the heat gun made more sense. 

 

I've had it since and have pulled countless clubs with it. Again, I can't say anything about current heat guns but the one I have has been really easy to use and honestly can't see how a torch would be easier other than say possibly a few more seconds.

[Stuart_G]

16 hours ago, Mp14forlife said:

Having been a lifelong heat gun user, the only thing I'd use a heat gun for now is removing grip tape.

 

They are also great for softening ferrules to make them easy to cut off before pulling the heads - especially on graphite iron shafts where you need to use a shaft extractor and can't pull off by hand.

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by Stuart_G

[denkea]

On 8/1/2023 at 7:44 PM, achappy said:

it had an output that was the same or close to a butane torch which negated the issues people had with heat guns.

Don't believe there is a heat gun (paint stipper gets the hottest) that would get anywhere near 3000º.

[Socrates]

On 8/1/2023 at 6:44 PM, achappy said:

 

The one I bought was one that was specifically recommended by many club makers at the time. If I remember correctly, it had an output that was the same or close to a butane torch which negated the issues people had with heat guns.  This goes back to the old GEA forum when I got started.  I tried a butane torch and wasn't a fan and at the time I thought my repairs would be limited so the heat gun made more sense. 

 

I've had it since and have pulled countless clubs with it. Again, I can't say anything about current heat guns but the one I have has been really easy to use and honestly can't see how a torch would be easier other than say possibly a few more seconds.

The problem always comes down to the user.  Someone who can do quality work and is smart can use many different tools efficiently.  The rest should use the most appropriate tool available to reduce the screwup factor.  In this case a torch will serve them better.  Can't remember the last time I used a heatgun to remove a head... Maybe the last time I had to fart around with one of those stupid Callaway FT heads.

[Stuart_G]

2 hours ago, denkea said:

Don't believe there is a heat gun (paint stipper gets the hottest) that would get anywhere near 3000º.

 

I'm not saying temperature doesn't matter - but It's really more about the ability to really focus and concentrate that heat source to a small area.

Edited August 3, 2023 by Stuart_G

[denkea]

4 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

I'm not saying temperature doesn't matter - but It's really more about the ability to really focus and concentrate that heat source to a small area.

Yes and heat guns are terrible at that.  Even if you use the concentrator tip.  I have a mini butane torch that has a flame about the size of a thick pencil.  I get the heat only where I want it and how much.