The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy

[Jasonic]

Hey Jim I'm curious if tilt switch is similar to the Dante 3rd "magic move" of shifting hips while keeping head/chest steady and the "eternal triangle" intact? Thanks!

Hey Jim I'm curious if tilt switch is similar to the Dante 3rd "magic move" of shifting hips while keeping head/chest steady and the "eternal triangle" intact? Thanks!

 

No, not the same thing, although same segment, ie Transition.

 

Tilt Switch is the active reversal or "switch" from left side bend of the torso at the Top, from mid-back region, to right side bend early in Transition.

 

Interesting. It seems when I do the hip move and don't "do anything" with arms keeping head back my tilt does switch and my arms automatically come down to hitting zone (at least with slow mo mirror swings)

 

In that case, the head back thing is just a way you developed a trigger for the switch. But possible to keep your head back with ZERO switch, I see that all the time.

 

It is important in golf - if you wish to be successful making swing changes - to differentiate between "model" swing theory and what and how your body is executing that theory. The most important piece of knowledge is how you are using your mind, ie Meta-Awareness, second most important is what in fact is your body actually doing, and any triggers you develop are further down the list.

 

Meaning some folks will conflate a trigger for the body motion or even for the theory.

 

I'm in the very difficult (but getting there) process of fixing my death move which is upper body lunging toward ball on downswing. My head moved probably 6-8 inches! Im at about 2 now and this move really seems to help initiate my swing instead of and all out rotate everything forward ha. Thanks!

[GoStars]

Jim,

I have purchased several videos (Arm Swing Illusion, Pivot, Swing Map Drills, Arm Mechanics), and I have to say the latest has really helped me bring it all together.

 

The module 5 video helped me get a much clearer picture in my mind of what to do, and was a great addition due to the sheer size and volume of information presented in the other modules.

[Jim Waldron]

Jim,

I have purchased several videos (Arm Swing Illusion, Pivot, Swing Map Drills, Arm Mechanics), and I have to say the latest has really helped me bring it all together.

 

The module 5 video helped me get a much clearer picture in my mind of what to do, and was a great addition due to the sheer size and volume of information presented in the other modules.

Jim,

I have purchased several videos (Arm Swing Illusion, Pivot, Swing Map Drills, Arm Mechanics), and I have to say the latest has really helped me bring it all together.

 

The module 5 video helped me get a much clearer picture in my mind of what to do, and was a great addition due to the sheer size and volume of information presented in the other modules.

 

I think you might have meant to write "module 6"? Module 6 is the latest video and covers every technical detail of my entire ideal swing "model", broken down into six sequential swing segments.

[GoStars]

Yes I meant 6, the new one

[Jim Waldron]

Lately I have been asked by quite a few students for my view of "what is the most important thing" for getting better - and fast! - at this crazy game.

 

I do have some thoughts on that issue, but first a warning. There is never going to be a "magic move" or "secret swing thought" or simplistic band-aid of any kind, that will actually instantly result in better shots and lower scores. If you see something like that online - run as fast as you can from that bs, as it is mainly or even entirely "marketing". Marketing is about what "sells" - and not necessarily at all about what is true, real and effective.

 

Like all the good teachers I have spoken with about their own teaching methods, I have a hierarchy of skills/fundamentals that I have found over almost three decades of teaching to have a proven track record of success. Stuff that works, in other words. And works in the real world of the lesson tee and the golf course with real human golfers.

 

This is exactly the same approach the legendary basketball coach, John Wooden, developed with his famous "Pyramid of Success".

 

It just means certain skills come first in the natural developmental learning cycle, and certain fundamentals are way more important than other fundamentals.

 

When you use this approach, you are maximizing the effectiveness of your practice time, which is always somewhat limited, unless you are retired and can devote yourself entirely to golf (pretty rare).

 

What is proven to be ineffective and a time-waster is spending any amount of your practice time working on stuff that has no or little chance of success because it is out of sequence with that natural developmental process.

 

I see that mistake with my students efforts everyday.

 

You can use the house building analogy. Why would you be putting up sheetrock on the walls of a house that lacked a foundation?

 

Here is how I see it in terms of "first things first" and following the law of cause and effect.

 

Number One: understanding how to use your awareness and mental focus, and how to cultivate an open, inquiring, non-judgemental mind set. Especially the skill of Meta-Awareness which means - mainly - how to observe/notice what your mind is doing and attending to, in the present moment. That is the foundation skill of mindfulness practice, and something my "naturally gifted" golf students who are able to make both swing changes and changes to their mental game approach quickly and easily.

The students who struggle with both the mechanical and mental game aspects of golf tend to have little or no Meta-Awareness.

 

Number Two: understanding some of the basic psychology of how to learn golf skills effectively and how to practice golf skills effectively. If you lack this understanding, and you take instruction or search on your own for good swing theory, all you will have in the end is a head full of swing thoughts. What you need in golf is swing reality - not swing thoughts. Meaning how do you actually get your body to execute all of that ideal and cool-sounding "theory"? Understanding the relationship between conscious mind and subconscious mind is a big part of this, along with things like how do your form dominant mechanical habits. In my experience, my typical student arrives on my lesson tee with little or no understanding of these issues. Worse yet - many are holding onto ideas about how to learn and train that are actually toxic, meaning those concepts will sabotage their actual learning and training process.

 

Number Three: professional level grip position and pressure, Setup and Aim and Alignment or the three "pre-swing" fundamentals.

Kind of part of the foundation of your "house". Why would you spend ANY time working on the kind of advanced highly technical swing moves that are the usual wrx stuff when you have not yet achieved a proper grip, aim and especially Setup?

 

Number Four: Learning how to setup and especially swing to a finish in rock solid Balance. When your balance is poor, your body will compensate for that with body parts moving in a way that creates poor mechanics, which then create poor impact. Part of this is having a solid Lower Body Stability Platform, or learning how to create the right kind of tension in your legs, knees and ankles so that you have a stable base to pivot off of with your upper body.

[PJ1120]

Lately I have been asked by quite a few students for my view of "what is the most important thing" for getting better - and fast! - at this crazy game.

 

I do have some thoughts on that issue, but first a warning. There is never going to be a "magic move" or "secret swing thought" or simplistic band-aid of any kind, that will actually instantly result in better shots and lower scores. If you see something like that online - run as fast as you can from that bs, as it is mainly or even entirely "marketing". Marketing is about what "sells" - and not necessarily at all about what is true, real and effective.

 

Like all the good teachers I have spoken with about their own teaching methods, I have a hierarchy of skills/fundamentals that I have found over almost three decades of teaching to have a proven track record of success. Stuff that works, in other words. And works in the real world of the lesson tee and the golf course with real human golfers.

 

This is exactly the same approach the legendary basketball coach, John Wooden, developed with his famous "Pyramid of Success".

 

It just means certain skills come first in the natural developmental learning cycle, and certain fundamentals are way more important than other fundamentals.

 

When you use this approach, you are maximizing the effectiveness of your practice time, which is always somewhat limited, unless you are retired and can devote yourself entirely to golf (pretty rare).

 

What is proven to be ineffective and a time-waster is spending any amount of your practice time working on stuff that has no or little chance of success because it is out of sequence with that natural developmental process.

 

I see that mistake with my students efforts everyday.

 

You can use the house building analogy. Why would you be putting up sheetrock on the walls of a house that lacked a foundation?

 

Here is how I see it in terms of "first things first" and following the law of cause and effect.

 

Number One: understanding how to use your awareness and mental focus, and how to cultivate an open, inquiring, non-judgemental mind set. Especially the skill of Meta-Awareness which means - mainly - how to observe/notice what your mind is doing and attending to, in the present moment. That is the foundation skill of mindfulness practice, and something my "naturally gifted" golf students who are able to make both swing changes and changes to their mental game approach quickly and easily.

The students who struggle with both the mechanical and mental game aspects of golf tend to have little or no Meta-Awareness.

 

Number Two: understanding some of the basic psychology of how to learn golf skills effectively and how to practice golf skills effectively. If you lack this understanding, and you take instruction or search on your own for good swing theory, all you will have in the end is a head full of swing thoughts. What you need in golf is swing reality - not swing thoughts. Meaning how do you actually get your body to execute all of that ideal and cool-sounding "theory"? Understanding the relationship between conscious mind and subconscious mind is a big part of this, along with things like how do your form dominant mechanical habits. In my experience, my typical student arrives on my lesson tee with little or no understanding of these issues. Worse yet - many are holding onto ideas about how to learn and train that are actually toxic, meaning those concepts will sabotage their actual learning and training process.

 

Number Three: professional level grip position and pressure, Setup and Aim and Alignment or the three "pre-swing" fundamentals.

Kind of part of the foundation of your "house". Why would you spend ANY time working on the kind of advanced highly technical swing moves that are the usual wrx stuff when you have not yet achieved a proper grip, aim and especially Setup?

 

Number Four: Learning how to setup and especially swing to a finish in rock solid Balance. When your balance is poor, your body will compensate for that with body parts moving in a way that creates poor mechanics, which then create poor impact. Part of this is having a solid Lower Body Stability Platform, or learning how to create the right kind of tension in your legs, knees and ankles so that you have a stable base to pivot off of with your upper body.

 

Jim....just finished the first viewing of Mod 6. What % of your weight should be in your trail leg at P6? I have a bad habit of throwing my weight forward in transition.

[Jim Waldron]

Lately I have been asked by quite a few students for my view of "what is the most important thing" for getting better - and fast! - at this crazy game.

 

I do have some thoughts on that issue, but first a warning. There is never going to be a "magic move" or "secret swing thought" or simplistic band-aid of any kind, that will actually instantly result in better shots and lower scores. If you see something like that online - run as fast as you can from that bs, as it is mainly or even entirely "marketing". Marketing is about what "sells" - and not necessarily at all about what is true, real and effective.

 

Like all the good teachers I have spoken with about their own teaching methods, I have a hierarchy of skills/fundamentals that I have found over almost three decades of teaching to have a proven track record of success. Stuff that works, in other words. And works in the real world of the lesson tee and the golf course with real human golfers.

 

This is exactly the same approach the legendary basketball coach, John Wooden, developed with his famous "Pyramid of Success".

 

It just means certain skills come first in the natural developmental learning cycle, and certain fundamentals are way more important than other fundamentals.

 

When you use this approach, you are maximizing the effectiveness of your practice time, which is always somewhat limited, unless you are retired and can devote yourself entirely to golf (pretty rare).

 

What is proven to be ineffective and a time-waster is spending any amount of your practice time working on stuff that has no or little chance of success because it is out of sequence with that natural developmental process.

 

I see that mistake with my students efforts everyday.

 

You can use the house building analogy. Why would you be putting up sheetrock on the walls of a house that lacked a foundation?

 

Here is how I see it in terms of "first things first" and following the law of cause and effect.

 

Number One: understanding how to use your awareness and mental focus, and how to cultivate an open, inquiring, non-judgemental mind set. Especially the skill of Meta-Awareness which means - mainly - how to observe/notice what your mind is doing and attending to, in the present moment. That is the foundation skill of mindfulness practice, and something my "naturally gifted" golf students who are able to make both swing changes and changes to their mental game approach quickly and easily.

The students who struggle with both the mechanical and mental game aspects of golf tend to have little or no Meta-Awareness.

 

Number Two: understanding some of the basic psychology of how to learn golf skills effectively and how to practice golf skills effectively. If you lack this understanding, and you take instruction or search on your own for good swing theory, all you will have in the end is a head full of swing thoughts. What you need in golf is swing reality - not swing thoughts. Meaning how do you actually get your body to execute all of that ideal and cool-sounding "theory"? Understanding the relationship between conscious mind and subconscious mind is a big part of this, along with things like how do your form dominant mechanical habits. In my experience, my typical student arrives on my lesson tee with little or no understanding of these issues. Worse yet - many are holding onto ideas about how to learn and train that are actually toxic, meaning those concepts will sabotage their actual learning and training process.

 

Number Three: professional level grip position and pressure, Setup and Aim and Alignment or the three "pre-swing" fundamentals.

Kind of part of the foundation of your "house". Why would you spend ANY time working on the kind of advanced highly technical swing moves that are the usual wrx stuff when you have not yet achieved a proper grip, aim and especially Setup?

 

Number Four: Learning how to setup and especially swing to a finish in rock solid Balance. When your balance is poor, your body will compensate for that with body parts moving in a way that creates poor mechanics, which then create poor impact. Part of this is having a solid Lower Body Stability Platform, or learning how to create the right kind of tension in your legs, knees and ankles so that you have a stable base to pivot off of with your upper body.

 

Jim....just finished the first viewing of Mod 6. What % of your weight should be in your trail leg at P6? I have a bad habit of throwing my weight forward in transition.

 

Depends on the club, and varying degrees of stance width. The shorter the club, the narrower the stance, the more weight is toward the left leg. So with a driver, around 55/45 favoring the left leg. With a lob wedge, more like 65/35..

[markfardon]

Come on Jim can you really feel the difference between 55% and 45% ??

Can you tell the difference between 65%/35% and say 70/30 ? What if the ground is not exactly level ...this is being a bit silly - no ?

[Jim Waldron]

Feeling weight in the feet can indeed be learned. The point is that you do want more weight left at P6 on all clubs, but it is very close to being 50/50 with a driver, and moderately more than that with a wedge. You don't need to take the numbers literally.

[Jim Waldron]

Just a quick heads up. I will be doing a live Q and A session tomorrow Sept 19 at 4PM Pacific time here on golfwrx, in the "Tour and Pre-Release" forum. Topics can be anything of interest in the game of golf. Will last for about one hour. Hope you guys can join in, should be fun.

 

Jim

[e-man]

Jim -- I have a flat swing. My flaw has always been my arms outracing the turn and the club getting stuck behind me. About 20 years ago, I started doing the "drill," as I would call it, which involved extending the club in front of me, picking it up, and then turning back. I would hit 50+ balls on the range like this and everyone around me thought I was some sort of trick shot artist (or freak). My swing was sometimes so bad that I would play with the "drill" on the course. I knew the drill worked, but I never knew why. NOW I KNOW. I watched the arm swing illusion trailer (I guess it's the intro) and it gave me the chills. I now know that I'm not alone. I feel like Richard Dreyfus in Close Encounters. I need to go out and get your book.

 

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

[Jim Waldron]

Jim -- I have a flat swing. My flaw has always been my arms outracing the turn and the club getting stuck behind me. About 20 years ago, I started doing the "drill," as I would call it, which involved extending the club in front of me, picking it up, and then turning back. I would hit 50+ balls on the range like this and everyone around me thought I was some sort of trick shot artist (or freak). My swing was sometimes so bad that I would play with the "drill" on the course. I knew the drill worked, but I never knew why. NOW I KNOW. I watched the arm swing illusion trailer (I guess it's the intro) and it have me the chills. I now know that I'm not alone. I feel like Richard Dreyfus in Close Encounters. I need to go out and get your book.

 

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

 

You are welcome! And great to know the ASI concept confirmed your own insight from so long ago....pretty cool.

 

Now if you can just get some modelling clay and sculpt a monument to the ASI you really will be just like Richard Dreyfuss in Close Encounters....

[smdykas]

Jim

I went to the range after reading some of this thread and watching videos. I am amazed by my contact. I totally am awestruck by how little I understood the arms in the down swing.

 

I do have some questions. My miss is a left pull. Would that be due to a pivot stall and flip? Like my old pattern?

 

Also, my shots are very straight but my wedges seem short and very big divots. Not sure why?

 

I am bummed I found this at the end of the season. I hit so well for the first time. I feel like my eyes are open to a much simpler swing idea.

[Jim Waldron]

Jim

I went to the range after reading some of this thread and watching videos. I am amazed by my contact. I totally am awestruck by how little I understood the arms in the down swing.

 

I do have some questions. My miss is a left pull. Would that be due to a pivot stall and flip? Like my old pattern?

 

Also, my shots are very straight but my wedges seem short and very big divots. Not sure why?

 

I am bummed I found this at the end of the season. I hit so well for the first time. I feel like my eyes are open to a much simpler swing idea.

 

Thank you for your feedback, and great to hear the asi concept has helped you.

 

No way to answer your questions without doing a remote lesson with you and seeing video of your swings.

 

Many things can cause a pull to the left, including out to in path, and a shut face at impact.

 

The ASI is a Big Picture principle that explains why the arms behave in such a toxic way in the golf swings of 99% of golfers.

 

It is not a "swing thought" or "swing correction".

 

The angle of the lead arm to the shoulder girdle is key to understanding the concept of arm and pivot synchronization. You want to avoid the two extremes of too much angle and too little. From P6 where the Release starts (or a bit earlier) to just after impact, we want to see at least a 30 degree angle, and a maximum of 50 degree angle. 40 degrees is ideal for most golfers. That is matched up with a moderate degree of body openess at impact - about 45 degrees with the hips with a driver, and 30 degrees with the shoulder girdle.

[smdykas]

Jim

I went to the range after reading some of this thread and watching videos. I am amazed by my contact. I totally am awestruck by how little I understood the arms in the down swing.

 

I do have some questions. My miss is a left pull. Would that be due to a pivot stall and flip? Like my old pattern?

 

Also, my shots are very straight but my wedges seem short and very big divots. Not sure why?

 

I am bummed I found this at the end of the season. I hit so well for the first time. I feel like my eyes are open to a much simpler swing idea.

 

Thank you for your feedback, and great to hear the asi concept has helped you.

 

No way to answer your questions without doing a remote lesson with you and seeing video of your swings.

 

Many things can cause a pull to the left, including out to in path, and a shut face at impact.

 

The ASI is a Big Picture principle that explains why the arms behave in such a toxic way in the golf swings of 99% of golfers.

 

It is not a "swing thought" or "swing correction".

 

The angle of the lead arm to the shoulder girdle is key to understanding the concept of arm and pivot synchronization. You want to avoid the two extremes of too much angle and too little. From P6 where the Release starts (or a bit earlier) to just after impact, we want to see at least a 30 degree angle, and a maximum of 50 degree angle. 40 degrees is ideal for most golfers. That is matched up with a moderate degree of body openess at impact - about 45 degrees with the hips with a driver, and 30 degrees with the shoulder girdle.

 

This makes sense. I might be trying to jam the club down too forcefully.

 

I will look into the online lessons. Thanks

[Muffy]

I was fortunate to attend Jim Waldron's 2 day school in Portland, OR this past weekend.

 

Background on me is I'm 58 years old, started golf about 4 years ago and have a 17 handicap, with my weakness being inconsistent ball striking and distance control in irons. I've taken lessons from a nationwide golf instruction (franchise), which has been helpful but has tended to be a "watch this drill video" after every lesson, and I never got a broader view of the ideal swing and the broader development plan. I spent a lot of range time, and improved my form but only marginally in handicap.

 

I'd rate Jim's teaching as outstanding. He's been a student of the swing for many, many years, is organized, strategic, extremely detailed, and has thought through concepts not only on the entire swing, but how to teach it in a way that is understandable and memorable, and leaves students more capable of self-improvement.

 

The 2 days were full of drills, swing concepts, individual assistance on swing flaws, learning and mental awareness. I learned more in 2 days than my 3 years of lessons and range time.

 

There were a lot of takeaways (no pun intended), but one was a former student who was helping at the school, who's handicap dropped significantly over a winter after taking Jim's school, simply by practicing drills in the mirror at home. Another was being contorted into a very awkward ideal full backswing position, only to observe how much faster and more consistent my contact was when I duplicated this position.

 

I highly recommend Jim's school to those who want to accelerate their learning curve.

[Jim Waldron]

I was fortunate to attend Jim Waldron's 2 day school in Portland, OR this past weekend.

 

Background on me is I'm 58 years old, started golf about 4 years ago and have a 17 handicap, with my weakness being inconsistent ball striking and distance control in irons. I've taken lessons from a nationwide golf instruction (franchise), which has been helpful but has tended to be a "watch this drill video" after every lesson, and I never got a broader view of the ideal swing and the broader development plan. I spent a lot of range time, and improved my form but only marginally in handicap.

 

I'd rate Jim's teaching as outstanding. He's been a student of the swing for many, many years, is organized, strategic, extremely detailed, and has thought through concepts not only on the entire swing, but how to teach it in a way that is understandable and memorable, and leaves students more capable of self-improvement.

 

The 2 days were full of drills, swing concepts, individual assistance on swing flaws, learning and mental awareness. I learned more in 2 days than my 3 years of lessons and range time.

 

There were a lot of takeaways (no pun intended), but one was a former student who was helping at the school, who's handicap dropped significantly over a winter after taking Jim's school, simply by practicing drills in the mirror at home. Another was being contorted into a very awkward ideal full backswing position, only to observe how much faster and more consistent my contact was when I duplicated this position.

 

I highly recommend Jim's school to those who want to accelerate their learning curve.

 

Thank you, M, for your positive feedback!

 

It was a real pleasure working with you for those two days last week.

 

M had one really massive ballstriking breakthrough about clubhead path, while doing the brain boundary extremes of in to our vs out to in path drill. At first, he had trouble doing ANY amount of in to out path. I asked him to swing at least 20 degrees in to out and he managed a slight out to in path. But after 15 minutes he started to actually create a slight in to out path. It made a huge difference in the quality of his ball flight.

 

Pretty cool to see that kind of dramatic improvement in such a short amount of time, and the look on his face watching those pured golf shots was really great....

[Patrick_O]

I just came across this video of a Japanese instructor demonstrating the golf swing in a different way and it reminded me of some of the Arm Swing Illusion concepts of Jim's teachings.

 

Jim,

Do you consider this to be in general alignment with the Arm Swing Illusion concept, or am I off base here?

 

[Jim Waldron]

I just came across this video of a Japanese instructor demonstrating the golf swing in a different way and it reminded me of some of the Arm Swing Illusion concepts of Jim's teachings.

t

Jim,

Do you consider this to be in general alignment with the Arm Swing Illusion concept, or am I off base here?

 

 

Yes - but only in the most basic sense that the arms go up and down in front of the chest while the chest is rotating.

 

Everything else he is describing is way off base. You should not and do not need to "throw your arms down" and certainly NOT in the direction of your right hip. In fact, you should not move your arms at a fixed point in space at all, a common 2D mistake.

[GolfWithdrawals]

Jim,

 

I just wanted to thank you for sharing some of your thoughts/concepts, etc. on this forum. I discovered this thread on Friday 11/3 and made it through the first 5 pages. I went to play a late 9 holes on Friday after work and decided to give your concept a go. I didn't get a chance to hit any balls or try any of the drills, but growing up with a golf pro dad helped me understand the concept better than most might be able to. I must say, I was blown away at how well I hit the ball. I focused on the feeling of bringing my left arm to the 45 degree angle and moving straight up on my backswing, and from the top I focused on firing/turning my hips and letting my arms drop naturally. Letting your arms fall is not an easy thing to do when you have been trying to control your golf swing for so long. Luckily, I had previously tinkered with that concept from reading Ben Hogans book and had success with it. I could really feel the difference in the width I was creating with your concept, and I never felt like I was getting stuck. The feeling it gave me was like I was swinging like Justin Thomas's swing looks. My swing felt so much more free. I played in my club championship on Saturday 11/4 and despite knowing that it probably wasn't a good idea to use your concept in the tournament after only playing a few holes with it, I did it anyway. I ended up shooting a 73, a new tournament low for me, and winning my first ever individual tournament. I'm excited to learn more about the arm swing illusion and thanks again!

[Jim Waldron]

Jim,

 

I just wanted to thank you for sharing some of your thoughts/concepts, etc. on this forum. I discovered this thread on Friday 11/3 and made it through the first 5 pages. I went to play a late 9 holes on Friday after work and decided to give your concept a go. I didn't get a chance to hit any balls or try any of the drills, but growing up with a golf pro dad helped me understand the concept better than most might be able to. I must say, I was blown away at how well I hit the ball. I focused on the feeling of bringing my left arm to the 45 degree angle and moving straight up on my backswing, and from the top I focused on firing/turning my hips and letting my arms drop naturally. Letting your arms fall is not an easy thing to do when you have been trying to control your golf swing for so long. Luckily, I had previously tinkered with that concept from reading Ben Hogans book and had success with it. I could really feel the difference in the width I was creating with your concept, and I never felt like I was getting stuck. The feeling it gave me was like I was swinging like Justin Thomas's swing looks. My swing felt so much more free. I played in my club championship on Saturday 11/4 and despite knowing that it probably wasn't a good idea to use your concept in the tournament after only playing a few holes with it, I did it anyway. I ended up shooting a 73, a new tournament low for me, and winning my first ever individual tournament. I'm excited to learn more about the arm swing illusion and thanks again!

 

Hi G - thanks for your feedback and congrats on your tournament victory!

 

Great insights from you on the importance of width and keeping hands/arms/club in front of the trail side of your chest.

 

Hogan talked about the "arms getting a free ride down" in Five Lessons. That phrase plus how he described his downswing as a chain reaction starting with the left hip pulling on the arms in an unbroken chain is a great way to understand how the arms work in the downswing.

 

There is a popular thread right now on this forum about the Malaska move, and the usual 2D illusions and mis-perceptions are running rampant in some of those comments. The arms are pulled down by the forces of the Pivot, as Hogan so clearly stated.

 

There is no need for the arms to "do anything" on their own, and any attempt to use the arm muscles to "help out" during the downswing almost always ends in disaster. When you picture the arms as two sides of your Triangle, and when the base of the Triangle rotates and tilts, it moves the two sides or arms down, out and forward.

 

The arm swing illusion makes us believe that we need to "do something" with our arm muscles to move the arms.

 

When you let the Pivot forces do their thing, which includes momentum acting on the right elbow, which will gradually straighten the right elbow, that will allow a small amount of independent motion of the upper arm bones in the shoulder socket, enough to move your arms down, out and forward (toward mid-line) just the right amount, then the golf swing can indeed be a "free-wheeling" athletic motion, devoid of any sort of manipulation.

[BigEx44]

 

Hi G - thanks for your feedback and congrats on your tournament victory!

 

Great insights from you on the importance of width and keeping hands/arms/club in front of the trail side of your chest.

 

Hogan talked about the "arms getting a free ride down" in Five Lessons. That phrase plus how he described his downswing as a chain reaction starting with the left hip pulling on the arms in an unbroken chain is a great way to understand how the arms work in the downswing.

 

There is a popular thread right now on this forum about the Malaska move, and the usual 2D illusions and mis-perceptions are running rampant in some of those comments. The arms are pulled down by the forces of the Pivot, as Hogan so clearly stated.

 

There is no need for the arms to "do anything" on their own, and any attempt to use the arm muscles to "help out" during the downswing almost always ends in disaster. When you picture the arms as two sides of your Triangle, and when the base of the Triangle rotates and tilts, it moves the two sides or arms down, out and forward.

 

The arm swing illusion makes us believe that we need to "do something" with our arm muscles to move the arms.

 

When you let the Pivot forces do their thing, which includes momentum acting on the right elbow, which will gradually straighten the right elbow, that will allow a small amount of independent motion of the upper arm bones in the shoulder socket, enough to move your arms down, out and forward (toward mid-line) just the right amount, then the golf swing can indeed be a "free-wheeling" athletic motion, devoid of any sort of manipulation.

 

I haven't followed this whole thread. But I did want to thank you for your "arm swing illusion" video. It's fantastic. And it helped change my golf game in a big way. Your video (along with a Brian Sparks video which got me to finally shift my weight effectively) took me from a 13 handicap down to a 9 this past summer. No easy thing for a 60 yr old who didn't pick up golf until his 40's. Thank you so much for that!

[Jim Waldron]

Hi G - thanks for your feedback and congrats on your tournament victory!

 

Great insights from you on the importance of width and keeping hands/arms/club in front of the trail side of your chest.

 

Hogan talked about the "arms getting a free ride down" in Five Lessons. That phrase plus how he described his downswing as a chain reaction starting with the left hip pulling on the arms in an unbroken chain is a great way to understand how the arms work in the downswing.

 

There is a popular thread right now on this forum about the Malaska move, and the usual 2D illusions and mis-perceptions are running rampant in some of those comments. The arms are pulled down by the forces of the Pivot, as Hogan so clearly stated.

 

There is no need for the arms to "do anything" on their own, and any attempt to use the arm muscles to "help out" during the downswing almost always ends in disaster. When you picture the arms as two sides of your Triangle, and when the base of the Triangle rotates and tilts, it moves the two sides or arms down, out and forward.

 

The arm swing illusion makes us believe that we need to "do something" with our arm muscles to move the arms.

 

When you let the Pivot forces do their thing, which includes momentum acting on the right elbow, which will gradually straighten the right elbow, that will allow a small amount of independent motion of the upper arm bones in the shoulder socket, enough to move your arms down, out and forward (toward mid-line) just the right amount, then the golf swing can indeed be a "free-wheeling" athletic motion, devoid of any sort of manipulation.

 

I haven't followed this whole thread. But I did want to thank you for your "arm swing illusion" video. It's fantastic. And it helped change my golf game in a big way. Your video (along with a Brian Sparks video which got me to finally shift my weight effectively) took me from a 13 handicap down to a 9 this past summer. No easy thing for a 60 yr old who didn't pick up golf until his 40's. Thank you so much for that!

 

Hi B and thank you for your feedback!

 

My ASI video has helped scores of golfers to breakthrough - as you did - to much better ballstriking. It covers all the bases as to why the illusion is so powerful and how it creates such a toxic effect on one's golf swing.

[Jim Waldron]

I have had some inquiries about when Module Seven on Balance will be released. We hope to have it up on our website for download by December 26. It will be a bit over 90 minutes in total viewing time. I discuss everything I know about Balance, and how to achieve "rock-solid balance" (Hogan's term, who was a fanatic about Balance, by the way!). Lots of drills, and some important information on ground force pressures, and how to achieve a solid Lower Body Stability Platform,. one of the big keys to better balance during the golf swing.

 

"Module Eight: Tempo, Rhythm and Timing" will be released around mid-January. Mod eight is the last in the Great Shot! video instruction series.

 

Upcoming videos for release later this winter are two videos devoted to the mental game: "Mastering the Mental Game: the Art of Shotmaking" which covers how to use your mind properly to hit much better golf shots, along with pre-shot routine fundamentals and how to "flinch-proof" your golf swing.

[chips&yips]

UPDATE: Here is a link to my new video on the Arm Swing Illusion, released on July 15, 2015. For those of you who find this illusion concept fascinating and helpful, whether you intend to continue on in your reading and study of this mega-thread, consider buying the video (available from our website as a convenient download) and watching it several times. It is designed to be as close as possible to the actual experience of a live golf school with me, and is a total viewing time of 2 hours and 42 minutes. It covers the arm swing illusion, as well as several related illusions, in depth. The video consists of an Introduction to the basic concept, drills for de-constructing the Illusion from your subconscious mind swing map that are done without a golf ball, and finally drills you can do with a ball during range practice.

 

Any golfer who watches this video with a truly open mind will come away with a radical new understanding of what is actually happening in the modern tour pro golf swing. It is a mind-blowing experience that will challenge your previously un-questioned basic assumptions about what should be happening with the arm motion in a good golf swing. If you struggle with sucking the arms and club way inside the ideal plane in the backswing, over the top move during Transition, early wrist c0ck release and flipping, and arm dis-connection during Release, this video will show you the primary root cause of those Fatal Flaws.

 

http://www.balancepo...hop/golf-videos

 

And here is a small sample of that video:

 

We have completed the follow up video to that Arm Swing Illusion video: "Module Three - Advanced Arm Mechanics and Educated Hands" in two parts, a nearly three hour video Part A and a 40 minute video Part B. Both are available for download at the above link to our website. Module Three goes into a very detailed and technical explanation of the proper arm mechanics, and covers the Triangle concept, the Three Arm Pressures, more on the arm swing illusion, both swing map, slow motion mirror and ballstriking drills focusing on proper arm mechanics. Module Three also covers Elements Five through Nine of Educated Hands in the Balance Point System having to do with various forms of pressure, and awareness of hand path, clubhead weight, etc.

 

Module Four: Mechanics of the Pivot video is now available from our site as well. http://www.balancepointgolf.com/index.php/pro-shop.

 

Once you have a clear understanding of how the arms should work from Modules Two and Three, the next step is to learn about the basic elements of the Pivot: lateral weight shift on the forward swing, rotation, side tilt, forward Spine Angle, Tilt Illusion, Power sources, Pivot Thrust, Transition Trigger and related elements.

 

My e-book "Great Shot! Mastering the Craft of Ballstriking" also covers the Arm Swing Illusion material, but more importantly is a 205 page "encyclopedia" about the modern golf swing fundamentals, including sections on how to learn and practice effectively. http://www.balancepo...ro-shop/e-books

 

 

Thanks, Kiwi, for explaining that. The arms pushaway on a 45 degree angle to the chest, while the chest is rotating, in an actual golf swing. But - when we first present the Illusion concept in our golf schools, we do an exaggeration drill where there is no Pivot, to show what the arms actually do in relation to the chest, and in that drill, a club is placed on the ground from the middle of one's stance on a 45 degree angle to one's right. We practice the arm pushaway action which results in the golf club in one's hands being over the shaft on the ground, and the club in one's hands parallel to the ground, with just a touch of wrist hinge and c0ck as well. Then - we do the chest/belly Pivot with arms across the chest to around 45 degrees of chest rotation. Then we combine the arm 45 angle pushaway with the chest rotation for a perfectly on-plane takeaway or moveaway motion. The blending of the two motions is the key to a real takeaway.

 

Russc - you are taking connection too literally. You can have the left tricep touching the pecs while the upper left arm is moving on that angle to the right of mid-line a bit. We call it "connection in motion". And it happens for most of my students after the first third or so of the actual moveaway segment. Although you could certainly do it right from the start and still keep the upper left arm touching the pec as you start to do the pushaway motion. I recommend that option for some students who are way too inside with their arms during moveaway. You just have to synchronize the two at the right speed - otherwise you will get a seperation of the left arm from the pec.

 

 

I have a hard time with this concept. There can be no question that in the better players the left arm (for the right handed golfer) abducts in toward the chest as the reach the top of their backswing. Look at Bubba Watson or Ricky Fowler. At the top of their back swing their lead arm is laying across their chest. It is not at a 45 degree angle. Therefore their arms have in fact swung across their chest.

 

I have a hard time with this concept. There can be no question that in the better players the left arm (for the right handed golfer) abducts in toward the chest as the reach the top of their backswing. Look at Bubba Watson or Ricky Fowler. At the top of their back swing their lead arm is laying across their chest. It is not at a 45 degree angle. Therefore their arms have in fact swung across their chest.

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[Jim Waldron]

UPDATE: Here is a link to my new video on the Arm Swing Illusion, released on July 15, 2015. For those of you who find this illusion concept fascinating and helpful, whether you intend to continue on in your reading and study of this mega-thread, consider buying the video (available from our website as a convenient download) and watching it several times. It is designed to be as close as possible to the actual experience of a live golf school with me, and is a total viewing time of 2 hours and 42 minutes. It covers the arm swing illusion, as well as several related illusions, in depth. The video consists of an Introduction to the basic concept, drills for de-constructing the Illusion from your subconscious mind swing map that are done without a golf ball, and finally drills you can do with a ball during range practice.

 

Any golfer who watches this video with a truly open mind will come away with a radical new understanding of what is actually happening in the modern tour pro golf swing. It is a mind-blowing experience that will challenge your previously un-questioned basic assumptions about what should be happening with the arm motion in a good golf swing. If you struggle with sucking the arms and club way inside the ideal plane in the backswing, over the top move during Transition, early wrist c0ck release and flipping, and arm dis-connection during Release, this video will show you the primary root cause of those Fatal Flaws.

 

http://www.balancepo...hop/golf-videos

 

And here is a small sample of that video:

 

We have completed the follow up video to that Arm Swing Illusion video: "Module Three - Advanced Arm Mechanics and Educated Hands" in two parts, a nearly three hour video Part A and a 40 minute video Part B. Both are available for download at the above link to our website. Module Three goes into a very detailed and technical explanation of the proper arm mechanics, and covers the Triangle concept, the Three Arm Pressures, more on the arm swing illusion, both swing map, slow motion mirror and ballstriking drills focusing on proper arm mechanics. Module Three also covers Elements Five through Nine of Educated Hands in the Balance Point System having to do with various forms of pressure, and awareness of hand path, clubhead weight, etc.

 

Module Four: Mechanics of the Pivot video is now available from our site as well. http://www.balancepointgolf.com/index.php/pro-shop.

 

Once you have a clear understanding of how the arms should work from Modules Two and Three, the next step is to learn about the basic elements of the Pivot: lateral weight shift on the forward swing, rotation, side tilt, forward Spine Angle, Tilt Illusion, Power sources, Pivot Thrust, Transition Trigger and related elements.

 

My e-book "Great Shot! Mastering the Craft of Ballstriking" also covers the Arm Swing Illusion material, but more importantly is a 205 page "encyclopedia" about the modern golf swing fundamentals, including sections on how to learn and practice effectively. http://www.balancepo...ro-shop/e-books

 

 

Thanks, Kiwi, for explaining that. The arms pushaway on a 45 degree angle to the chest, while the chest is rotating, in an actual golf swing. But - when we first present the Illusion concept in our golf schools, we do an exaggeration drill where there is no Pivot, to show what the arms actually do in relation to the chest, and in that drill, a club is placed on the ground from the middle of one's stance on a 45 degree angle to one's right. We practice the arm pushaway action which results in the golf club in one's hands being over the shaft on the ground, and the club in one's hands parallel to the ground, with just a touch of wrist hinge and c0ck as well. Then - we do the chest/belly Pivot with arms across the chest to around 45 degrees of chest rotation. Then we combine the arm 45 angle pushaway with the chest rotation for a perfectly on-plane takeaway or moveaway motion. The blending of the two motions is the key to a real takeaway.

 

Russc - you are taking connection too literally. You can have the left tricep touching the pecs while the upper left arm is moving on that angle to the right of mid-line a bit. We call it "connection in motion". And it happens for most of my students after the first third or so of the actual moveaway segment. Although you could certainly do it right from the start and still keep the upper left arm touching the pec as you start to do the pushaway motion. I recommend that option for some students who are way too inside with their arms during moveaway. You just have to synchronize the two at the right speed - otherwise you will get a seperation of the left arm from the pec.

 

 

I have a hard time with this concept. There can be no question that in the better players the left arm (for the right handed golfer) abducts in toward the chest as the reach the top of their backswing. Look at Bubba Watson or Ricky Fowler. At the top of their back swing their lead arm is laying across their chest. It is not at a 45 degree angle. Therefore their arms have in fact swung across their chest.

 

 

I have a hard time with this concept. There can be no question that in the better players the left arm (for the right handed golfer) abducts in toward the chest as the reach the top of their backswing. Look at Bubba Watson or Ricky Fowler. At the top of their back swing their lead arm is laying across their chest. It is not at a 45 degree angle. Therefore their arms have in fact swung across their chest.

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Your understanding of the concept is flawed. The 45 degree angle is for the takeaway - NOT the Top of backswing.

 

Of course the arm moves on an angle to the right of golfers mid-line, but that can happen in two very different ways: the correct way is while also pushing the hands out away from your chest and the incorrect way - which gets you stuck - is to pull the arms in toward you, almost always along with a lot of bend in the right elbow. As the second half of backswing proceeds, the 45 angle will increase due to a blend of postural elements and pivot momentum, to a maximum of 70 degrees with the driver.

 

If you really want to understand the ASI in depth, and overcome the illusion and it's toxic effects on your swing, I suggest getting my Module Two video on the ASI.

[chips&yips]

Please look at this video on lead arm abduction, and then tell me that the arms don't move across the chest.

 

[Jim Waldron]

Apparently you did not read my reply or you suffer from a massive reading comprehension problem.

 

I see that even after three years and over 700,000 page views, there are still a few die-hard trolls left who are attracted to this thread....

[starsail85]

Jim

 

One thing I’ve always struggled with is the “closing the gap” between the shoulders and hips in the downswing, I believe you state that the shoulders should rotate at 2x the rpm the hips do in transition or downswing .

 

I also find it hard to use my core , and the idea that the belly muscles is the first part of transition is a difficult one for me to understand ., but it maybe explains why i struggle to get my shoulders rotating to catch up with the hips

 

I can do the drill where you make a backswing , stop and keep the legs still whilst I hit the ball via turning the chest . This always gets me in sync and hitting it straight

 

Anyhow , I was hitting balls today and experimenting with trying to use the ground , maintain the lower body brace but also to feel like my pelvis sinks alittle and I’m increasing the pressure in my feet . Whilst videoing the swing i could see that my shoulders caught up with my hips more and it felt right in sync

 

How important is the using the ground/squat/increase in knee flex etc move to providing a stable base for the core muscles to power and rotate the upper torso to close the gap ?

[Jim Waldron]

Jim

 

One thing I've always struggled with is the "closing the gap" between the shoulders and hips in the downswing, I believe you state that the shoulders should rotate at 2x the rpm the hips do in transition or downswing .

 

I also find it hard to use my core , and the idea that the belly muscles is the first part of transition is a difficult one for me to understand ., but it maybe explains why i struggle to get my shoulders rotating to catch up with the hips

 

I can do the drill where you make a backswing , stop and keep the legs still whilst I hit the ball via turning the chest . This always gets me in sync and hitting it straight

 

Anyhow , I was hitting balls today and experimenting with trying to use the ground , maintain the lower body brace but also to feel like my pelvis sinks alittle and I'm increasing the pressure in my feet . Whilst videoing the swing i could see that my shoulders caught up with my hips more and it felt right in sync

 

How important is the using the ground/squat/increase in knee flex etc move to providing a stable base for the core muscles to power and rotate the upper torso to close the gap ?

 

Per your last sentence, the lower or squat or re-grounding move is super important. The Core activation connects the upper body pivot (torso/s girdle) with the lower body pivot (hips) and takes the excess "slack" out of the body so that your s girdle/arms Triangle can deliver the clubhead into the ball "on time".

 

In the past two years there have been a lot of threads on this forum about the arms lagging the body on the forward swing, and I am not a fan of the usual prescribed remedies, which is to make an independent upper arm in the shoulder socket move powered by the arm muscles. That can be one solution, but only one I would recommend to young strong pro level players with very fast tempos especially on Transition. For the vast majority of golfers, there are three solutions that work really well: one is to activate the Core to take the slack out, another is to learn how to rotate the s girdle (along with tilt switch) at twice the rpm speed of the hips, and the third is to actively use the Core (not just the s girdle) to propel the arms Triangle forward.