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Titleist golf ball study; Finally, some facts added to the debate


Roadking2003

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Isn't it also that the modern ball doesn't spin as much and makes it a lot easier to hit it straight?

 

I wouldn't mind if they made the ball a little more like the old balata so guys could work it more and inferior ball strikers would be exposed.

 

This is my gripe. Not total distance. It's that it's so easy to hit the high straight ball.

 

Perhaps if you're part of the golfing elite.

 

For those of us who play 3 times a month and are in the 14-17 hdcp range, there is nothing EASY about this game, no matter the type of ball we use.

 

And I am in the MAJORITY of the golfing public

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Question. How would the side that's against he ball being rolled back distance wise feel if it were rolled back to a ball that simply spins more. One that's harder to hit straight ? But Retains the possibility of going the same distance as now on a perfect strike ? Coupled with a cc rollback of 100cc for driver. Would that be a fair compromise to the proposed ball rollback ?

 

What problem are you solving for?

 

I’d rather have them roll back the driver size/COR and wedge groove rules.

 

And I get that. You'd rather hit a straight ball yes?

 

I'm saying that the true issue isn't total distance . It's the ease at which it's achieved.

 

And on top of that approach shots. We see less and less flighted , worked in shots to a tight pin. It's all high straight at it. It's a pipe dream I know as it won't happen. But if every tour player had to play a less forgiving iron ( one without perimeter weighting ) and a ball that spun more viewing in my opinion would be x100 more fun to watch. Cream would rise as usual. And we would see a lot more interesting pro tracer shots. Anyone think that isn't true ? If so I'd love to hear how straight is more fun to watch. Truth is it wont happen because of $. Can't sell less forgiveness to the masses. So the game is sold off bit by bit.

 

I get it. But it reminds me of an aging high school basketball coach who has become a fan of Women’s NCAA basketball because “they still play the game the right way”.

 

Some people would undoubtedly enjoy watching a high-spin shotmaking shootout. If the PGA Tour thought that this was the majority of people, they’d be mandating a spinny ball. The market wants bombers, bombers are what they’ll get.

 

The reality is that we’re just going to plateau at a new normal. The top quartile guys will all hit their drives the same distance, and tournaments will be decided by short irons and putting - just like they always have been.

 

This week at the Joberg open there was a 16 year old English junior in the field. He hits his 7 iron 225, carry. Some may say he is an exception but it's just what's coming. The PGA Tour average and highest ball speeds are increasing and the average angle of atack is moving towards a positive figure. We are a long way from plateauing.

 

But that isn't just about the ball. That's about his swing and training and all the analytics he gets from the modern coaching these days. And he's probably fit as a triathlon athlete.

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Work out all you want, the data does not support your conjecture. Everyone's distance exploded with the change in clubs and again with the new ball. The charts are right in the "study". Same guys, more distance.

 

Taller people with a longer arc do get some free distance. But why do you think that there were so few tall players before the equipment change. Distance was still important then. Take a look at George Archer standing over the ball and you'll find your answer.

Is that what this is? An excuse to not work out and be body positive? :)

Yes, I am quite aware that the modern equipment is better able to accommodate the tall player. Are you aware that in spite of having perhaps the best short game ever the biggest reason for Tiger's reign was his long game? He had more of a strokes gained advantage in the long game than the short. All of the top tour players are long. Yes, some are longer than others but there are no players on tour hitting it 240. Does not matter how good the short game is they need to have a fair amount of length. And all tour players have a good short game. Like in anything else some are better than others but all can chip and roll the rock.

Too many on here imo are looking at the rankings in the charts above and making false assumptions. 290 off the tee is not short. And yet some here are trying to say that Brian Harman is a short hitter at 289.9 off the tee AVERAGE last year. Please don't mistake a pros average for the typical amateur. The amateur thinks that his longest is how far he can hit it but also seems to think the pros average is far as he can hit it. Nothing of the sort.

 

So true, averages do not give the proper insight to distance. As I said, when Spieth hits it 315 yards, Rory or DJ put it out 345 yards. Averages factor in too many variables that can bury the actual performance potential of some of the longer hitters.

 

I never argued that distance is overrated. Distance is always important. It's fundamental to Broadie's strokes gained model. The thing I was pointing out is that the equipment had a lot to do with the distance gains. More so than the "athletic" golfer. The same guys were long before they started working out. Some guys were long and never bothered working out. They are still long.

 

Player was one of the original workout fanatics. He still lagged well behind Nicklaus and Palmer at firestone on big three golf. He hit a lot of 4 woods into those par 4's.

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I am still scratching my head on the "roll it back" campaign when we are asked to "tee it forward".

 

Wk

Titleist TSR3 Diamana White Stiff

TM Stealth2 Plus 3, 5Wood Ventus Black TR 7S

Titleist T200U 2 and 3 iron Mitsubishi Tensei Whte 8S 

Titleist T100 4-PW AMTWhite S

Vokey SM10 50, 54, 58  AMT White

Scotty Super Select NP (ordered)

Scotty Tour Rat

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I was surprised at some of the names throwing up -23 and such

 

I agree and I'm not quite sure how to interpret that.

I think it just speaks to the talent level of many golfers now. Put a lot pretty good golfers in the same field with an aggressive go get it attitude and scoring can happen

Callaway Mavrik SubZero 9* Fujikura Motore Speeder VC7.2 Tour Spec X

Taylormade V-Steel 15* Aldila Tour Blue 75TX

Titleist 913 19* Diamana 82hy S
Srixon ZX4 MKII 4i Modus 105s

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Work out all you want, the data does not support your conjecture. Everyone's distance exploded with the change in clubs and again with the new ball. The charts are right in the "study". Same guys, more distance.

 

Taller people with a longer arc do get some free distance. But why do you think that there were so few tall players before the equipment change. Distance was still important then. Take a look at George Archer standing over the ball and you'll find your answer.

Is that what this is? An excuse to not work out and be body positive? :)

Yes, I am quite aware that the modern equipment is better able to accommodate the tall player. Are you aware that in spite of having perhaps the best short game ever the biggest reason for Tiger's reign was his long game? He had more of a strokes gained advantage in the long game than the short. All of the top tour players are long. Yes, some are longer than others but there are no players on tour hitting it 240. Does not matter how good the short game is they need to have a fair amount of length. And all tour players have a good short game. Like in anything else some are better than others but all can chip and roll the rock.

Too many on here imo are looking at the rankings in the charts above and making false assumptions. 290 off the tee is not short. And yet some here are trying to say that Brian Harman is a short hitter at 289.9 off the tee AVERAGE last year. Please don't mistake a pros average for the typical amateur. The amateur thinks that his longest is how far he can hit it but also seems to think the pros average is far as he can hit it. Nothing of the sort.

 

So true, averages do not give the proper insight to distance. As I said, when Spieth hits it 315 yards, Rory or DJ put it out 345 yards. Averages factor in too many variables that can bury the actual performance potential of some of the longer hitters.

 

I never argued that distance is overrated. Distance is always important. It's fundamental to Broadie's strokes gained model. The thing I was pointing out is that the equipment had a lot to do with the distance gains. More so than the "athletic" golfer. The same guys were long before they started working out. Some guys were long and never bothered working out. They are still long.

 

Player was one of the original workout fanatics. He still lagged well behind Nicklaus and Palmer at firestone on big three golf. He hit a lot of 4 woods into those par 4's.

 

Distance is about the efficiency of the golf swing. Some guys come by swing speed naturally, Bubba and Daly have led the Tour in driving distance and I'd hardly call either one of them a gym rat. Guys like DJ, Koepka, Day, Tiger and Rory have made a conscious effort to enhance their swing speeds with training.

 

The fact there's almost a 50 yard delta between Rory and Furyk in 2017 and that Furyk is averaging 8 yards less than he did in 2005 shows it's not all about equipment.

Driver - Callaway Paradym
Woods - Callaway Paradym 3W
Hybrids - XXIO 10 3H, 4H, 5H
Irons - Callaway Paradym 6-52*
Wedge - PXG Forged 56** 
Putter - Ping TYNE C
Ball - Titleist AVX

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I had some time today to put together some fun charts for everyone. I don't have statistical significance numbers for each chart, but Titleist didn't do that work, either, right? Hopefully pictures are good enough. All data is from PGA tour website, compiled by me in Excel.

 

I get the feel that a lot of you think distance and short game are mutually exclusive. Like if you hit the ball far, you're neglecting your short game. Here are charts of distance off the tee vs. strokes gained in the short game (brown) and putting (red). Maybe some weak correlations there, but I'm not seeing an overwhelming conclusion in either chart.

 

Driving distance seems to make a bigger impact on strokes gained in approach shots (first blue chart). Makes sense... closer you are to the hole, easier the approach.

 

But here is where we start to see a nice pattern... distance and strokes gained off the tee are directly related. Distance is a huge advantage in gaining strokes off the tee.

 

So what about distance on earnings? Well, you can't just take total earnings, you need to control for number of events entered. So you look at distance versus winnings per event.

 

Take a look at the green dots. No one under 295 yards averaged over $200k per event.

 

You can cherry pick data all you want, but as you aggregate data points from everyone on tour in 2017, there are clear patterns.

 

Better data = clearer picture.

 

I'd be happy to repeat this for past PGA seasons as I have time. Would be cool to do a 3 or 5 year study and see how (if) things have changed.

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Isn't it also that the modern ball doesn't spin as much and makes it a lot easier to hit it straight?

 

I wouldn't mind if they made the ball a little more like the old balata so guys could work it more and inferior ball strikers would be exposed.

 

This is my gripe. Not total distance. It's that it's so easy to hit the high straight ball.

 

Perhaps if you're part of the golfing elite.

 

For those of us who play 3 times a month and are in the 14-17 hdcp range, there is nothing EASY about this game, no matter the type of ball we use.

 

And I am in the MAJORITY of the golfing public

 

I was referring to Tour Pros.

 

It makes sense to have different rules on Tour.

 

Like the move to wooden bats in baseball once you reach a certain level.

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Work out all you want, the data does not support your conjecture. Everyone's distance exploded with the change in clubs and again with the new ball. The charts are right in the "study". Same guys, more distance.

 

Taller people with a longer arc do get some free distance. But why do you think that there were so few tall players before the equipment change. Distance was still important then. Take a look at George Archer standing over the ball and you'll find your answer.

Is that what this is? An excuse to not work out and be body positive? :)

Yes, I am quite aware that the modern equipment is better able to accommodate the tall player. Are you aware that in spite of having perhaps the best short game ever the biggest reason for Tiger's reign was his long game? He had more of a strokes gained advantage in the long game than the short. All of the top tour players are long. Yes, some are longer than others but there are no players on tour hitting it 240. Does not matter how good the short game is they need to have a fair amount of length. And all tour players have a good short game. Like in anything else some are better than others but all can chip and roll the rock.

Too many on here imo are looking at the rankings in the charts above and making false assumptions. 290 off the tee is not short. And yet some here are trying to say that Brian Harman is a short hitter at 289.9 off the tee AVERAGE last year. Please don't mistake a pros average for the typical amateur. The amateur thinks that his longest is how far he can hit it but also seems to think the pros average is far as he can hit it. Nothing of the sort.

 

So true, averages do not give the proper insight to distance. As I said, when Spieth hits it 315 yards, Rory or DJ put it out 345 yards. Averages factor in too many variables that can bury the actual performance potential of some of the longer hitters.

 

I never argued that distance is overrated. Distance is always important. It's fundamental to Broadie's strokes gained model. The thing I was pointing out is that the equipment had a lot to do with the distance gains. More so than the "athletic" golfer. The same guys were long before they started working out. Some guys were long and never bothered working out. They are still long.

 

Player was one of the original workout fanatics. He still lagged well behind Nicklaus and Palmer at firestone on big three golf. He hit a lot of 4 woods into those par 4's.

 

Distance is about the efficiency of the golf swing. Some guys come by swing speed naturally, Bubba and Daly have led the Tour in driving distance and I'd hardly call either one of them a gym rat. Guys like DJ, Koepka, Day, Tiger and Rory have made a conscious effort to enhance their swing speeds with training.

 

The fact there's almost a 50 yard delta between Rory and Furyk in 2017 and that Furyk is averaging 8 yards less than he did in 2005 shows it's not all about equipment.

 

Yeah Furyk is getting up there in years. Rory was long when he got to the tour. He wasn't working out then, but is now. Not much distance gained 310 in 2012, 317 in 2017.

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Isn't it also that the modern ball doesn't spin as much and makes it a lot easier to hit it straight?

 

I wouldn't mind if they made the ball a little more like the old balata so guys could work it more and inferior ball strikers would be exposed.

 

This is my gripe. Not total distance. It's that it's so easy to hit the high straight ball.

 

Perhaps if you're part of the golfing elite.

 

For those of us who play 3 times a month and are in the 14-17 hdcp range, there is nothing EASY about this game, no matter the type of ball we use.

 

And I am in the MAJORITY of the golfing public

 

I was referring to Tour Pros.

 

It makes sense to have different rules on Tour.

 

Like the move to wooden bats in baseball once you reach a certain level.

 

That being said then no amateurs can play in pro events.

 

Wk

Titleist TSR3 Diamana White Stiff

TM Stealth2 Plus 3, 5Wood Ventus Black TR 7S

Titleist T200U 2 and 3 iron Mitsubishi Tensei Whte 8S 

Titleist T100 4-PW AMTWhite S

Vokey SM10 50, 54, 58  AMT White

Scotty Super Select NP (ordered)

Scotty Tour Rat

PROV1 Left Dash

 

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I was surprised at some of the names throwing up -23 and such

 

I agree and I'm not quite sure how to interpret that.

I think it just speaks to the talent level of many golfers now. Put a lot pretty good golfers in the same field with an aggressive go get it attitude and scoring can happen

 

Except those same guys can't do it in a full field big event. Which leads me to hypothesize that these down-card PGA Tour events are played on courses that are set up too easy for them. If I think about the two events that are local to me - the Travelers and the Dell Championship - there is no doubt that the Travelers (where some super low scores have been shot by guys you never heard of) is on a dramatically easier course.

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Isn't it also that the modern ball doesn't spin as much and makes it a lot easier to hit it straight?

 

I wouldn't mind if they made the ball a little more like the old balata so guys could work it more and inferior ball strikers would be exposed.

 

This is my gripe. Not total distance. It's that it's so easy to hit the high straight ball.

 

Perhaps if you're part of the golfing elite.

 

For those of us who play 3 times a month and are in the 14-17 hdcp range, there is nothing EASY about this game, no matter the type of ball we use.

 

And I am in the MAJORITY of the golfing public

 

I was referring to Tour Pros.

 

It makes sense to have different rules on Tour.

 

Like the move to wooden bats in baseball once you reach a certain level.

 

That being said then no amateurs can play in pro events.

 

Wk

 

Sure they could. They'd just have to follow the pro rules. Kind of like the club rules in unrestricted USGA events like the US Open.

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I was surprised at some of the names throwing up -23 and such

 

I agree and I'm not quite sure how to interpret that.

I think it just speaks to the talent level of many golfers now. Put a lot pretty good golfers in the same field with an aggressive go get it attitude and scoring can happen

 

Except those same guys can't do it in a full field big event. Which leads me to hypothesize that these down-card PGA Tour events are played on courses that are set up too easy for them. If I think about the two events that are local to me - the Travelers and the Dell Championship - there is no doubt that the Travelers (where some super low scores have been shot by guys you never heard of) is on a dramatically easier course.

It is a short course, under 7000 I think? You give those guys a short course and good conditions, they’ll shoot 58

 

I definitely think if they just grow out the fairways a hair and make the rough an actually punishment to avoid and strategy comes back into play dramatically

Callaway Mavrik SubZero 9* Fujikura Motore Speeder VC7.2 Tour Spec X

Taylormade V-Steel 15* Aldila Tour Blue 75TX

Titleist 913 19* Diamana 82hy S
Srixon ZX4 MKII 4i Modus 105s

Srixon ZX5 MKII 5-P Modus 105s

TM MG 50/54 Project X 6.5 8i 

TM Tiger Grind 60* TI s400

TM Rossa Tourismo agsi+

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Is that what this is? An excuse to not work out and be body positive? :)

Yes, I am quite aware that the modern equipment is better able to accommodate the tall player. Are you aware that in spite of having perhaps the best short game ever the biggest reason for Tiger's reign was his long game? He had more of a strokes gained advantage in the long game than the short. All of the top tour players are long. Yes, some are longer than others but there are no players on tour hitting it 240. Does not matter how good the short game is they need to have a fair amount of length. And all tour players have a good short game. Like in anything else some are better than others but all can chip and roll the rock.

Too many on here imo are looking at the rankings in the charts above and making false assumptions. 290 off the tee is not short. And yet some here are trying to say that Brian Harman is a short hitter at 289.9 off the tee AVERAGE last year. Please don't mistake a pros average for the typical amateur. The amateur thinks that his longest is how far he can hit it but also seems to think the pros average is far as he can hit it. Nothing of the sort.

 

So true, averages do not give the proper insight to distance. As I said, when Spieth hits it 315 yards, Rory or DJ put it out 345 yards. Averages factor in too many variables that can bury the actual performance potential of some of the longer hitters.

 

I never argued that distance is overrated. Distance is always important. It's fundamental to Broadie's strokes gained model. The thing I was pointing out is that the equipment had a lot to do with the distance gains. More so than the "athletic" golfer. The same guys were long before they started working out. Some guys were long and never bothered working out. They are still long.

 

Player was one of the original workout fanatics. He still lagged well behind Nicklaus and Palmer at firestone on big three golf. He hit a lot of 4 woods into those par 4's.

 

Distance is about the efficiency of the golf swing. Some guys come by swing speed naturally, Bubba and Daly have led the Tour in driving distance and I'd hardly call either one of them a gym rat. Guys like DJ, Koepka, Day, Tiger and Rory have made a conscious effort to enhance their swing speeds with training.

 

The fact there's almost a 50 yard delta between Rory and Furyk in 2017 and that Furyk is averaging 8 yards less than he did in 2005 shows it's not all about equipment.

 

Yeah Furyk is getting up there in years. Rory was long when he got to the tour. He wasn't working out then, but is now. Not much distance gained 310 in 2012, 317 in 2017.

 

Which would indicate it's not really about the equipment.

Driver - Callaway Paradym
Woods - Callaway Paradym 3W
Hybrids - XXIO 10 3H, 4H, 5H
Irons - Callaway Paradym 6-52*
Wedge - PXG Forged 56** 
Putter - Ping TYNE C
Ball - Titleist AVX

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LOL, Jack Nicklaus an anti-technology activist - piss on Wally!

 

It's not a "study" so it can't be the best study. There are a few charts that show some pretty simple correlations and don't even try to explain the other variables or control for them, not a study.

 

It's a PR piece designed to spin (pun intended) all the talk about the golf ball being the problem.

 

Plenty of issues in the debate, Crossfield sensibly addressed some of them besides the golf ball, but this is nothing but unabashed marketing rhetoric by Titleist (and thanks for the ProV1s, I love them).

 

You are correct.

Titleist TSR3 8* / Fuji Ventus Black TR 6X               

Titleist TSR2+ / Fuji Ventus Black TR 7X               

Callaway UW / Fuji Ventu Black 8X

Edel SMS iron 4-5 / DG TI X100 /////  SMS PRO irons 6-PW / DG TI X100

Edel SMS 50V, 54T, 60T / DG TI S400/ BGT ZNE 130

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By the way, when I was playing pretty good golf back in the late 70's and 80's, we took it for granted that some par 4 holes, in some conditions, were not reachable in 2 shots. Only the really long guys could get to a 420 yard par 4 playing into the wind.

 

Now it seems that the current generation feels entitled to reach any par 4 in two shots because of equipment advances. Your conclusion will be different than mine.

IMO every par 4 should be reachable in two. ;)

By whom? Under what conditions? With what clubs?

To make a blanket statement like that every par 4 would have to be pretty short.

 

According to the USGA, a scratch player can reach a par 4, 470 yards in 2 shots, and a Bogey golfer should be able to hit a 370 yard par 4 in two shots. So how about the other holes that fall in between?

 

Depends on skill level I suppose.

 

So you're correct, saying that every par 4 should be reachable is incredibly vague.

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IMO every par 4 should be reachable in two. ;)

By whom? Under what conditions? With what clubs?

To make a blanket statement like that every par 4 would have to be pretty short.

 

I mean courses are designed and the score is calculated so that you hit par 4's in two shots.

 

Every hole on a course is meant for a 2-putt. That means a Par 3 allows you one stroke to reach the green, Par 4s allow you two strokes to reach the green, and Par 5s allow you three strokes to reach the green. Then you 2-putt and get your par. The score you're supposed to achieve. You reach a par 5 in two? Or you make a one putt? Then you get rewarded with birdie.

 

So yes, the game of golf was literally created and intended for golfers to take 2 strokes to reach a Par 4 green.

 

If you can't reach the par 4's in 2 shots, you need to move up a tee.

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IMO every par 4 should be reachable in two. ;)

By whom? Under what conditions? With what clubs?

To make a blanket statement like that every par 4 would have to be pretty short.

 

I mean courses are designed and the score is calculated so that you hit par 4's in two shots.

 

Every hole on a course is meant for a 2-putt. That means a Par 3 allows you one stroke to reach the green, Par 4s allow you two strokes to reach the green, and Par 5s allow you three strokes to reach the green. Then you 2-putt and get your par. The score you're supposed to achieve. You reach a par 5 in two? Or you make a one putt? Then you get rewarded with birdie.

 

So yes, the game of golf was literally created and intended for golfers to take 2 strokes to reach a Par 4 green.

 

If you can't reach the par 4's in 2 shots, you need to move up a tee.

 

Correct. Unless it's a long par 4 and there's 15mph or more wind in your face you should be able to get to the green in 2.

Titleist TSR3 8* / Fuji Ventus Black TR 6X               

Titleist TSR2+ / Fuji Ventus Black TR 7X               

Callaway UW / Fuji Ventu Black 8X

Edel SMS iron 4-5 / DG TI X100 /////  SMS PRO irons 6-PW / DG TI X100

Edel SMS 50V, 54T, 60T / DG TI S400/ BGT ZNE 130

Edel PROTO




 

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I had some time today to put together some fun charts for everyone. I don't have statistical significance numbers for each chart, but Titleist didn't do that work, either, right? Hopefully pictures are good enough. All data is from PGA tour website, compiled by me in Excel.

 

I get the feel that a lot of you think distance and short game are mutually exclusive. Like if you hit the ball far, you're neglecting your short game. Here are charts of distance off the tee vs. strokes gained in the short game (brown) and putting (red). Maybe some weak correlations there, but I'm not seeing an overwhelming conclusion in either chart.

 

Driving distance seems to make a bigger impact on strokes gained in approach shots (first blue chart). Makes sense... closer you are to the hole, easier the approach.

 

But here is where we start to see a nice pattern... distance and strokes gained off the tee are directly related. Distance is a huge advantage in gaining strokes off the tee.

 

So what about distance on earnings? Well, you can't just take total earnings, you need to control for number of events entered. So you look at distance versus winnings per event.

 

Take a look at the green dots. No one under 295 yards averaged over $200k per event.

 

You can cherry pick data all you want, but as you aggregate data points from everyone on tour in 2017, there are clear patterns.

 

Better data = clearer picture.

 

I'd be happy to repeat this for past PGA seasons as I have time. Would be cool to do a 3 or 5 year study and see how (if) things have changed.

 

"Take a look at the green dots. No one under 295 yards averaged over $200k per event."

 

Thank you. Also,

 

It looks like all but 2 of 17 or so the players who average under 280 made less than 50k/event. And neither of those two made over 100k.

 

Of the 6 players who made over 250k/event. All but one averaged 300 off the tee.

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Some of my thoughts:

 

I loved it when I got a 44" graphite shafted driver for my HS graduation from the pro I had worked for the previous 3 years. I could hit it easily 15-20 yards further.

 

Got my first 40 cc driver a few years ago & combined with the B330RX, I could still pop it off the tee around 270+/- at +50 years of age. Liked that too.

 

But a hole over 470 yards, on a course designed over 30 years ago was created to accept a long iron or fairway wood approach.

 

Holes designed to have short iron approaches should have much smaller greens complexes with much more trouble around them.

 

This is why the older courses are being overpowered by today's players & equipment.

 

How can we put that challenge back into the game without the extreme expense of greens re-designs?

 

I'll admit I don't have answers but can see the problem clearly

 

Are they really being over powered? It's not like a "shorter" course like Harbour Town is surrendering a bunch of 57's as scores.

 

When I start to see the winning score after a 4 round tournament sitting at -40 and the runner ups only being 2 shots behind, I'll start to believe the hype of the courses being "over powered" by the pros.

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Work out all you want, the data does not support your conjecture. Everyone's distance exploded with the change in clubs and again with the new ball. The charts are right in the "study". Same guys, more distance.

 

Taller people with a longer arc do get some free distance. But why do you think that there were so few tall players before the equipment change. Distance was still important then. Take a look at George Archer standing over the ball and you'll find your answer.

Is that what this is? An excuse to not work out and be body positive? :)

Yes, I am quite aware that the modern equipment is better able to accommodate the tall player. Are you aware that in spite of having perhaps the best short game ever the biggest reason for Tiger's reign was his long game? He had more of a strokes gained advantage in the long game than the short. All of the top tour players are long. Yes, some are longer than others but there are no players on tour hitting it 240. Does not matter how good the short game is they need to have a fair amount of length. And all tour players have a good short game. Like in anything else some are better than others but all can chip and roll the rock.

Too many on here imo are looking at the rankings in the charts above and making false assumptions. 290 off the tee is not short. And yet some here are trying to say that Brian Harman is a short hitter at 289.9 off the tee AVERAGE last year. Please don't mistake a pros average for the typical amateur. The amateur thinks that his longest is how far he can hit it but also seems to think the pros average is far as he can hit it. Nothing of the sort.

 

It may not be short on the PGA Tour, but it's certainly short for the typical WRX'r

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Yeah Furyk is getting up there in years. Rory was long when he got to the tour. He wasn't working out then, but is now. Not much distance gained 310 in 2012, 317 in 2017.

 

Rory couldn't work out in 2017 because of his rib injury. The 7 yard increase is probably due to a slightly better ball and slightly improved driver.

Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing-glove.  P.G. Wodehouse
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I was surprised at some of the names throwing up -23 and such

 

I agree and I'm not quite sure how to interpret that.

I think it just speaks to the talent level of many golfers now. Put a lot pretty good golfers in the same field with an aggressive go get it attitude and scoring can happen

 

Except those same guys can't do it in a full field big event. Which leads me to hypothesize that these down-card PGA Tour events are played on courses that are set up too easy for them. If I think about the two events that are local to me - the Travelers and the Dell Championship - there is no doubt that the Travelers (where some super low scores have been shot by guys you never heard of) is on a dramatically easier course.

 

The Travelers, TPC at River Highlands correct? That's where Furyk shot the 58 if I recall.. which would be to your point.

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Yeah Furyk is getting up there in years. Rory was long when he got to the tour. He wasn't working out then, but is now. Not much distance gained 310 in 2012, 317 in 2017.

 

Rory couldn't work out in 2017 because of his rib injury. The 7 yard increase is probably due to a slightly better ball and slightly improved driver.

 

Well then Furyk better get that ball and driver cause he's lost 7 yards in the last 17 years.

Driver - Callaway Paradym
Woods - Callaway Paradym 3W
Hybrids - XXIO 10 3H, 4H, 5H
Irons - Callaway Paradym 6-52*
Wedge - PXG Forged 56** 
Putter - Ping TYNE C
Ball - Titleist AVX

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Yeah Furyk is getting up there in years. Rory was long when he got to the tour. He wasn't working out then, but is now. Not much distance gained 310 in 2012, 317 in 2017.

 

Rory couldn't work out in 2017 because of his rib injury. The 7 yard increase is probably due to a slightly better ball and slightly improved driver.

Better equipment fit yes. His answer after going from Callaway Epic Sub Zero To TM M2 is that it "helped him find the center of the face more often." So it's not really an issue of the equipment out of control for Rory. It is a better fitting.

Titleist TSR4 9° Tensei AV White 65

Titleist TSi3 strong 3w 13.5° Tensei AV White 70

Titleist TS3 19°  hybrid Tensei Blue/Titleist TSR3 24° Diamana Ahina

Titleist T150 5-pw Nippon Pro Modus 125

Vokey SM8 50° F & 56° M SM9 60°M

Cameron Newport w/ flow neck by Lamont/ Cameron Del Mar

 



 

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There is a direct correlation to distance off the tee and success. Per 2017 PGA Tour stats, nearly every top player averages 295, including Spieth, and most top ten average over 300.

 

The top 10 owgr,

 

DJ 315

JS 295

JT 309

Rahm 305

HM 303

Rose 301

Rickie 300

Brooks 311

Stenson 292 (think he uses 3w alot]

Rory 317

 

The debate isn't about who drives it 300 yards. It's about the correlation between distance and success. Let's look at the stats for the top 30 on the money list.

 

Notice that only three on the top 30 money list are top 10 drivers. And the #2 money player is 75th in driving. And 15 of the top 30 money guys rank 50th or worse in driving.

 

Now show me that correlation again.

 

Here you go.

 

Your graph shows minor or no correlation. Just like the Titleist report stated.

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There is a direct correlation to distance off the tee and success. Per 2017 PGA Tour stats, nearly every top player averages 295, including Spieth, and most top ten average over 300.

 

The top 10 owgr,

 

DJ 315

JS 295

JT 309

Rahm 305

HM 303

Rose 301

Rickie 300

Brooks 311

Stenson 292 (think he uses 3w alot]

Rory 317

 

The debate isn't about who drives it 300 yards. It's about the correlation between distance and success. Let's look at the stats for the top 30 on the money list.

 

Notice that only three on the top 30 money list are top 10 drivers. And the #2 money player is 75th in driving. And 15 of the top 30 money guys rank 50th or worse in driving.

 

Now show me that correlation again.

 

Here you go.

 

Your graph shows minor or no correlation. Just like the Titleist report stated.

 

21 guys averaged over 305.

 

5 averaged under 50k/event

6 averaged 50-100k/event

4 averaged 100-150k/event

2 averaged 150-200k

4 averaged 200-450k

 

Of the bottom 21 in average distance

 

18 averaged under 50k/event

1 averaged over 100k

0 averaged 150k or more.

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