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World Handicap System 2020


QEight

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The proposed max score per hole optional stroke play format, combined with the same ESC of double bogey for everyone, will yield far fewer errors in score posting as well as faster play.

 

The one thing I don't understand is why not just use the existing Stableford (on which EGA handicaps are already based on) as it is exactly the same? The only reason I can think of is that some people wouldn't like to talk about points as opposed to strokes after a round. In my mind having two different "stroke scores" would be more confusing than a stroke play score and a Stableford score.

 

It will be net double bogey. The same as EGA and CONGU

 

ie the lowest net no of strokes that produces zero stableford points on the hole

 

But it will all be done within the computer software. There will be a massive investment by the R&A and USGA to support clubs

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I have my doubts and imagine it will be widely ignored or given lip service at the individual course or club level but we'll see.

How would this be given lip service at the club/course level? Hopefully you're not thinking of people on the course picking up at double thereby speeding up rounds (which this change will not affect), which is different when actually entering the score (which this change will affect)...

 

I'm sure you'll have some sly players saying "Ok, that's double, picking up." No, sorry, you need to finish the hole out.

 

--kC

 

i was replying about the attested scores requirement being given lip service or ignored, not the ESC change

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You handicap experts will have to weigh in because although I maintain a handicap in the "Wild West" and freely admit it is, in my opinion, I'm not seeing the argument about making the game more accessible and that kind of stuff. I don't view the handicap system as keeping people from playing or wanting to learn how to play golf, the vast majority simply don't maintain them over here at least and it's nothing to do with how complicated it is or how quickly they can get one.

 

Always been a little jealous that comps seem to continue to be more traditional over in the UK and sensed that maybe with comp scores being used maybe the system had a little more validity - not sure why the R&A would think moving more toward a U.S. based idea is in its interest, but I don't know how things work over there or what people who want handicaps are claiming are issues with the system.

 

Don't see these ideas really doing much over there except increasing the opportunities for sandbagging? Again, interested to see the perspective of those who deal with this on a daily basis.

 

And some of these ideas strike me much like some of the proposed rules changes that I think are ridiculous - trying to solve an issue with some things that sound good but really would have little impact (my frame of reference being some of the proposed rules aimed at "slow play" that actually defeat the integrity of some of the rules and will have no impact on pace of play whatsoever).

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i was replying about the attested scores requirement being given lip service or ignored, not the ESC change

 

 

Pre registration will be required.

I suspect that with the software investment, this will involve real time entry to an app.

No return of a score will be spotted.

 

"Pre registration" will be required how? The vast majority of rounds in the US are non-competition rounds. They will have to be "pre-registered" to count for HC purposes?

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At my semi-private course, like many others, there is a computer terminal in the corner, and people enter their own scores. Attested or not, playing as a single or not, whatever. Not to mention scores can be entered online at home.

 

As long as the above are in place, sandbagging will be easy. Will there be any changes to the above?

 

eta: I know that scores played with no witnesses are already supposed to be non-postable. But it's still done because there is no oversight at my club and many others.

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The proposed max score per hole optional stroke play format, combined with the same ESC of double bogey for everyone, will yield far fewer errors in score posting as well as faster play.

 

The one thing I don't understand is why not just use the existing Stableford (on which EGA handicaps are already based on) as it is exactly the same? The only reason I can think of is that some people wouldn't like to talk about points as opposed to strokes after a round. In my mind having two different "stroke scores" would be more confusing than a stroke play score and a Stableford score.

 

It will be net double bogey. ie the same as EGA and CONGU

 

Yes, that's why I didn't understand the need for the whole "net double bogey stroke score" as we already had Stableford.

 

But as I was writing this it occurred to me that calculating your handicap from average scores and Stableford might not really work together, or at least would be more complicated. "John has 37, 37, 35, 33 points as a 9 cap, 38 and 36 points as a 10 cap and 33 and 32 points as an 8 cap" might get a lot messier than simply listing the adjusted scores. :)

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i was replying about the attested scores requirement being given lip service or ignored, not the ESC change

 

 

Pre registration will be required.

I suspect that with the software investment, this will involve real time entry to an app.

No return of a score will be spotted.

 

Real time as in carry a phone on the course and enter scores hole by hole?

 

I can not imagine more than one or two people among those I play golf with having any interest in that whatsoever. I would certainly not participate in that particular element of the system.

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My impression is that it will use total net strokes for the round rather than total stableford points but I can't find it in my briefing notes

 

I agree, at least that is what I can gather from the material and the fact the net double bogey format was in the proposed new rules. And with my moment of Einsteinic brilliance, thought of the reason why. Stableford might even be on the way out for good, who knows, it would seem slightly redundant to keep two formats of play doing the same thing.

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My impression is that it will use total net strokes for the round rather than total stableford points but I can't find it in my briefing notes

 

I agree, at least that is what I can gather from the material and the fact the net double bogey format was in the proposed new rules. And with my moment of Einsteinic brilliance, thought of the reason why. Stableford might even be on the way out for good, who knows, it would seem slightly redundant to keep two formats of play doing the same thing.

 

People who have been playing Stableford games and comps their whole life aren't going to stop just because USGA/R&A change the terminology used in handicapping.

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I'm sure they've run the models but the increase to a max index of 54 with net double bogey being the highest allowable score seems counter intuitive. Also hoping not to play behind the 54 index person.

 

You already are playing behind them, you just don't know it. The number representing a handicap doesn't have any effect on the playing ability of the player. A 36 cap who can't play to it is just as good as a 48 who can play to it. :)

 

Over here all beginners get a "club handicap" of 54. Everyone is supposed to play the shortest set of tees until their handicap drops below 36, after which you can move back. You're also supposed to get your handicap down to 36 at your home club before playing at other clubs. Handicaps north of 36 can only be reduced, those can't go up and once you've got to 36, you can't go over it again. Also, if a 46 handicap wants to play in a tournament, he needs to play off 36.

 

I can only assume these guidelines would be in the new system.

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The proposed max score per hole optional stroke play format, combined with the same ESC of double bogey for everyone, will yield far fewer errors in score posting as well as faster play.

 

The one thing I don't understand is why not just use the existing Stableford (on which EGA handicaps are already based on) as it is exactly the same? The only reason I can think of is that some people wouldn't like to talk about points as opposed to strokes after a round. In my mind having two different "stroke scores" would be more confusing than a stroke play score and a Stableford score.

I play perhaps 25 tournaments a year, two of which are Stableford. In these parts, people are not all that familiar with the scoring, and that's complicated further by the "modified" versions. Anyone will "get" the max double bogey or whatever. And IMO it's nice to have a whole round stroke play score to contemplate even if you pick up.
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The bigger change is going to be the net double as the max score. For the higher index guys who have a couple of blow up holes per round, it's going to move 8's and 9's to as low as 6's. That's going to make a difference.

 

Max net double bogey will increase the handicap for single digit handicappers and decrease the handicap for those over 20. Between 10 and 20 it's a mixed bag.

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A lot of USA golfers (and for all I know golfers elsewhere) probably don't know how ingrained Stableford is at the local club level in many parts of UK. At the English club where I used to have a "second club" membership, the typical avid member plays a monthly medal comp one Saturday a month and plays Stableford comps or roll-up game for his other 100 rounds a year. Playing for Stableford points is far more natural to many English club golfers than keeping a medal score.

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Handicaps north of 36 can only be reduced, those can't go up and once you've got to 36, you can't go over it again.

 

That will not happen but all the other ideas will and are available to club and competition committees already

 

Do you think USGA is moving toward no longer selling handicaps to the tens of thousands of golfers who have them now but are not affiliated with any "club" having a functioning "committee"? That would seem to be implied by the path you are describing.

 

Many USA golfers have maintained handicaps for years by simply playing whenever and where ever and punching scores into a web site or app as they see fit.

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I'm sure they've run the models but the increase to a max index of 54 with net double bogey being the highest allowable score seems counter intuitive. Also hoping not to play behind the 54 index person.

 

A 54 handicaper gets 3 strokes per hole, so his max would be 10 on a par 5.

 

I suspect that very few 54 handicappers play competitive individual events.

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Over here all beginners get a "club handicap" of 54. Everyone is supposed to play the shortest set of tees until their handicap drops below 36, after which you can move back. You're also supposed to get your handicap down to 36 at your home club before playing at other clubs. Handicaps north of 36 can only be reduced, those can't go up and once you've got to 36, you can't go over it again. Also, if a 46 handicap wants to play in a tournament, he needs to play off 36.

 

Meanwhile, many in the US playing its

 

"Hey Halebopp, wanna play?"

"Sure, where?"

"Don't know, I think XYZ course sounds fun, and they have tee times online..."

"Sure, sign me up."

"I'll make a foursome and try to find a couple others. Do you think Bob and Sam wanna join?"

 

In other words... most of the golfing public do not "play other clubs", heck, I don't even know of private or semi-private clubs that play against other clubs here (or, I'm just part of the unwashed masses). Most just play "at" other clubs. ;)

 

So I'm also curious to find out how the preregistration will work and marking and all that. Especially as a frequent traveler for work and playing with strangers I meet. I'm anticipating something like doing it on the 1st tee through a phone "what's your number" and you can't enter your own score, you have to enter someone elses you play with.

 

--kC

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I play perhaps 25 tournaments a year, two of which are Stableford. In these parts, people are not all that familiar with the scoring, and that's complicated further by the "modified" versions. Anyone will "get" the max double bogey or whatever. And IMO it's nice to have a whole round stroke play score to contemplate even if you pick up.

 

You do have a point there. The approach for it is probably a bit different over here as we start off playing Stableford and for a long time it's more important than the stroke play score.

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If they can come up with an "adjustment" algorithm to account for abnormal course conditions due to weather, etc, can they not apply a very similar algorithm to automatically re-rate courses?

 

So instead of you having a fixed slope/rating, you just enter a course/teebox ID and the algorithm would take care of calculating slope/course rating based on the scores of other golfers, their handicaps, and where they have played.. Seems like things like temporary holes, major renovations, and scheduled re-ratings of courses would be unecessary and more representative of course conditions over time.

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Here's the thing about Stableford. It is a game that doesn't have to be played head-to-head like match play but is none the less equally well suited to high handicappers and low markers, unlike medal play.

 

It's common in USA to play "quota" or "points" games that are similar to Stableford although frequently they do not allocate handicap strokes to particular holes, punitively because figuring out what holes each player receives strokes is horrifically difficult. But one way or another, something not all that far from Stableford is the de facto standard game at many USA clubs.

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So instead of you entering in slope/rating, you just enter a course ID and the algorithm would take care of determining slope/rating.

 

If you use GHIN or some similar service bureau through an app, web page or computer program you typically enter the course name and tees rather than manually entering course/slope anyway.

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So instead of you entering in slope/rating, you just enter a course ID and the algorithm would take care of determining slope/rating.

 

If you use GHIN or some similar service bureau through an app, web page or computer program you typically enter the course name and tees rather than manually entering course/slope anyway.

 

You were a bit too quick, but I edited my post to be more clear in regards to what I meant:

"So instead of you having a fixed slope/rating, you just enter a course/teebox ID and the algorithm would take care of calculating slope/course rating based on the scores of other golfers, their handicaps, and where they have played."

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If someone has already posted about this, then please feel free to delete or merge but I can't seem to find anything.

 

Just saw this which seems to be a joint initiative between the R&A and the USGA - https://www.randa.org/News/2018/02/World-Handicap-System-features-announced

 

This the blurb about the main features of it -

The new system will feature the following:

  • Flexibility in formats of play, allowing both competitive and recreational rounds to count for handicap purposes and ensuring a golfer’s handicap is more reflective of potential ability
  • A recommendation that the number of scores needed to obtain a new handicap be 54 holes from any combination of 18-hole and 9-hole rounds, but with some discretion available for handicapping authorities or National Associations to set a different minimum within their own jurisdiction
  • A consistent handicap that is portable from course to course and country to country through worldwide use of the USGA Course and Slope Rating System, already successfully used in more than 80 countries
  • An average-based calculation of a handicap, taken from the best eight out of the last 20 scores and factoring in memory of previous demonstrated ability for better responsiveness and control
  • A calculation that considers the impact that abnormal course and weather conditions might have on a player’s performance each day
  • Daily handicap revisions, taking account of the course and weather conditions calculation
  • A limit of Net Double Bogey on the maximum hole score (for handicapping purposes only)
  • A maximum handicap limit of 54.0, regardless of gender, to encourage more golfers to measure and track their performance to increase their enjoyment of the game

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I have my doubts and imagine it will be widely ignored or given lip service at the individual course or club level but we'll see.

How would this be given lip service at the club/course level? Hopefully you're not thinking of people on the course picking up at double thereby speeding up rounds (which this change will not affect), which is different when actually entering the score (which this change will affect)...

 

I'm sure you'll have some sly players saying "Ok, that's double, picking up." No, sorry, you need to finish the hole out.

 

--kC

 

You know damn well that is exactly what is going to happen.

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The proposed max score per hole optional stroke play format, combined with the same ESC of double bogey for everyone, will yield far fewer errors in score posting as well as faster play.

 

It also helps with sandbagging on some level.

This is what I'd be most interested in... How will it help with the sandbaggers.

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