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World Handicap System 2020

QEightQEight FinlandMembers Posts: 3,512 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
Sounds very much like current EGA, but I have not read all details yet.



https://www.randa.org/News/2018/02/World-Handicap-System-features-announced
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  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 11,533 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    As I figured, it is the USGA system with a few tweaks to save face for the CONGU folks.



    Slope/Course Rating based and non-comp rounds count. Those two features determine the essence of what a handicap is. Other details are mostly window dressing.
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  • myspinonitmyspinonit Members Posts: 2,844 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm interested as this proceeds about the "adjustment algorithm" for abnormal weather conditions. Who determines what is abnormal for the round, how it's adjusted etc.
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  • QEightQEight FinlandMembers Posts: 3,512 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭


    As I figured, it is the USGA system with a few tweaks to save face for the CONGU folks.



    Slope/Course Rating based and non-comp rounds count. Those two features determine the essence of what a handicap is. Other details are mostly window dressing.




    UK has already sloped many/all(?) of it's courses so they have been preparing anyway. From EGA (and perhaps Australia) there is addition of daily conditions (CBA?). I am happy that they did not include 15 day revisions from USGA, but daily revisions.



    It will be interesting to see how Stableford competitions in Europe (including CONGU) will continue as it is no more used as basis of HC calculations. I still see it as a viable club competition format.
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  • Roadking2003Roadking2003 AustinMembers Posts: 6,068 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Two features will impact our current handicaps;



    1. Eight out of the last twenty rather than ten will reduce handicaps.



    2. Maximum net double bogey will increase handicaps.



    The slope and rating adjustment for weather might also reduce handicaps if the assumption is that current values assume good weather.
  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 11,533 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    I see now the article said "net double bogey" which makes sense.



    That is Stableford, which is much more sensible limit (if you're going to have a hole score limit at all) than the USGA's existing gross double/8/9/10 nonsense. Playing off 17 it just doesn't make sense that I can't count an 8 on a Par 5 but I'm supposed to count 7 on a Par 3 if I'm in my pocket.
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  • QEightQEight FinlandMembers Posts: 3,512 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭


    The article said "double bogey limit" which is, frankly, nuts for high handicappers. Do you think they meant "net double bogey limit" which is, in fact, just Stableford by another name.



    They say handicaps will be up to 54. Even a 36 handicap is getting two strokes per hole so a gross "double bogey limit" means they can't do any worse than net par. What the what?




    Net double bogey is the limit.
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  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 11,533 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    QEight wrote:



    The article said "double bogey limit" which is, frankly, nuts for high handicappers. Do you think they meant "net double bogey limit" which is, in fact, just Stableford by another name.



    They say handicaps will be up to 54. Even a 36 handicap is getting two strokes per hole so a gross "double bogey limit" means they can't do any worse than net par. What the what?




    Net double bogey is the limit.




    Yes, I went back and corrected my post.


    Two features will impact our current handicaps;



    1. Eight out of the last twenty rather than ten will reduce handicaps.



    2. Maximum net double bogey will increase handicaps.



    The slope and rating adjustment for weather might also reduce handicaps if the assumption is that current values assume good weather.




    That's my point. A few details will change for current USGA handicap holders but *everything* about handicapping will change for CONGU people. Using net double instead of a 7 or 8 as the ESC limit or tweaking ratings due to weather will nudge indices a few tenths one way or the other for "us" but for "them" it goes from only competitive scores counting to the USGA style Wild West where anything from laughable vanity 'caps to scary sandbag 'caps are the order of the day.
    “1lb beefstak, with
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    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
  • Roadking2003Roadking2003 AustinMembers Posts: 6,068 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭


    That's my point. A few details will change for current USGA handicap holders but *everything* about handicapping will change for CONGU people. Using net double instead of a 7 or 8 as the ESC limit or tweaking ratings due to weather will nudge indices a few tenths one way or the other for "us" but for "them" it goes from only competitive scores counting to the USGA style Wild West where anything from laughable vanity 'caps to scary sandbag 'caps are the order of the day.




    If you want to include most golfers, it's the only way to do it. Many of us rarely play individual tournament events so there is no way we would have an accurate handicap. I play 130 - 150 times per year and play maybe one individual tournament per year.
  • NewbyNewby Members Posts: 7,007 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    There will be a facility to choose primarily competition or 'all scores' as national bodies decide.



    Handicaps will be based on the average of the best 8 of the last 20 returned scores. Not the CONGU/EGA ratchet system

    A daily 'adjustment' for non competition scores will be calculated. Similar to but not exactly the same as Golf Australia.

    Competitions will have a separate calculation. Similar to CONGU and EGA.

    Non-comp scores will need pre registration (and a marker). Effectively the same as CONGU supplementary scores.

    Net double bogey will be the highest counting score. As CONGU & EGA. Best estimate and ESC go from US/Canada.

    As said USGA Rating and Slope will be universal.



    Apart from the first item above, virtually no change in the way CONGU and EGA have a competition bias and the US/Canada don't
  • NewbyNewby Members Posts: 7,007 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Feb 20, 2018 #11


    That's my point. A few details will change for current USGA handicap holders but *everything* about handicapping will change for CONGU people. Using net double instead of a 7 or 8 as the ESC limit or tweaking ratings due to weather will nudge indices a few tenths one way or the other for "us" but for "them" it goes from only competitive scores counting to the USGA style Wild West where anything from laughable vanity 'caps to scary sandbag 'caps are the order of the day.




    CONGU/EGA already use net double bogey.



    Apart from the averaging system, there is little effect on the CONGU/EGA world. Both systems already count non competition rounds.

    However, those systems already require pre-declaration and formal markers. North America will now have to also.
  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 11,533 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    For my part, purely selfish as a USGA handicap holder, the net result will be a slight improvement. Using 8 out of 20 instead of 10 out of 20 isn't going to matter much (other than nudging my index down a couple tenths) but net double bogey limit is a long overdue change, The combination of "best estimate" and ESC ended up, averaged over time, not much different than using net double. But on a hole by hole, round by round basis they were just silly and confusing.
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    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
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  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 11,533 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Newby wrote:



    That's my point. A few details will change for current USGA handicap holders but *everything* about handicapping will change for CONGU people. Using net double instead of a 7 or 8 as the ESC limit or tweaking ratings due to weather will nudge indices a few tenths one way or the other for "us" but for "them" it goes from only competitive scores counting to the USGA style Wild West where anything from laughable vanity 'caps to scary sandbag 'caps are the order of the day.




    CONGU/EGA already use net double bogey.



    Apart from the averaging system, there little effect on the CONGU/EGA world. Both systems already count non competition rounds.

    However, those systems already require pre-declaration. THe US will now have to.




    If that is truly implemented universally in USA that's a big win. I have my doubts and imagine it will be widely ignored or given lip service at the individual course or club level but we'll see.
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  • HaleboppHalebopp Members Posts: 2,899 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    EGA (and CONGU?) for net double bogey maximum (for handicapping purposes), CONGU/EGA for daily scratch score/CBA -style adjustment and immediate changes to handicap, USGA for the system where every round should be posted and moving to an average of the best rounds out of the last 20.
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  • HaleboppHalebopp Members Posts: 2,899 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Newby wrote:


    Non-comp scores will need pre registration (and a marker). Effectively the same as CONGU supplementary scores.




    To me it seems kind of weird that a handicap based on the average of the best of the past 20 rounds wouldn't require all rounds to be posted. Also, I have doubts there would be enough extra day scores to provide any statistically valid information for the DSS/CBA system.
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  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,666 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Newby wrote:


    Best estimate and ESC go from US/Canada.


    A quick question. There are still a few competition formats in which its not critical for each player to hole out on every hole, such as fourball stroke play. I'd have to assumed that the "most likely" score would be recorded for a player who picks up once his partner has holed a putt, is that correct? I'm also interested to find out what this means:
    factoring in memory of previous demonstrated ability for better responsiveness and control


    My first thought is that may be similar to the current USGA adjustment for "exceptional tournament scores", or perhaps a relatively longer "look-back" at all of a player's lowest scores.
  • DavePelz4DavePelz4 A golf course in the Chicago area.ClubWRX Posts: 24,965 ClubWRX
    We have a group of 10 and do our own handicaps using the current USGA approach. Ran the model with the changes for kicks and grins. For the lower handicap players, the move to 8 scores will make a very minor difference. For those over 15 handicap, it'll reduce their index by 1-2 shots.. The bigger change is going to be the net double as the max score. For the higher index guys who have a couple of blow up holes per round, it's going to move 8's and 9's to as low as 6's. That's going to make a difference.



    With handicap being your "potential" these changes should be a better representation of the that potential.
  • NewbyNewby Members Posts: 7,007 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    davep043 wrote:




    A quick question. There are still a few competition formats in which its not critical for each player to hole out on every hole, such as fourball stroke play. I'd have to assumed that the "most likely" score would be recorded for a player who picks up once his partner has holed a putt, is that correct? I'm also interested to find out what this means:




    The details of matchplay and fourball scoring for handicaps are still being worked on and no 'possibles' were suggested to us.. They may not be in the first implementation of the system.

    This applies to a number of other nitty gritty items. eg 'daily/competition adjustment' calculations. A number of serious statisticians are working their butts off I'm told
  • QEightQEight FinlandMembers Posts: 3,512 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Feb 20, 2018 #19
    davep043 wrote:

    Newby wrote:


    Best estimate and ESC go from US/Canada.


    A quick question. There are still a few competition formats in which its not critical for each player to hole out on every hole, such as fourball stroke play. I'd have to assumed that the "most likely" score would be recorded for a player who picks up once his partner has holed a putt, is that correct? I'm also interested to find out what this means:
    factoring in memory of previous demonstrated ability for better responsiveness and control


    My first thought is that may be similar to the current USGA adjustment for "exceptional tournament scores", or perhaps a relatively longer "look-back" at all of a player's lowest scores.




    Under EGA and I assume also CONGU some team formats did not count into HC. Also match play scores were not entered.



    If these change it would be quite a big change.



    Edit. Thx Newby for the information.
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  • NewbyNewby Members Posts: 7,007 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Halebopp wrote:

    Newby wrote:


    Non-comp scores will need pre registration (and a marker). Effectively the same as CONGU supplementary scores.




    To me it seems kind of weird that a handicap based on the average of the best of the past 20 rounds wouldn't require all rounds to be posted. Also, I have doubts there would be enough extra day scores to provide any statistically valid information for the DSS/CBA system.




    You may or may not be right. But the initial promise was that national traditions would be supported. For how long was never mentioned.

    I am pretty sure if the emphasis in GB&I was moved away from competitions, CONGU would never have got involved. And the R&A would be well aware of that.



    You would have a better feel for the EGA's feelings. But the individual countries in the EGA are more diversified than GB&I
  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,666 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Newby wrote:

    davep043 wrote:


    A quick question. There are still a few competition formats in which its not critical for each player to hole out on every hole, such as fourball stroke play. I'd have to assumed that the "most likely" score would be recorded for a player who picks up once his partner has holed a putt, is that correct? I'm also interested to find out what this means:




    The details of matchplay and fourball scoring for handicaps are still being worked on and no 'possibles' were suggested to us.. They may not be in the first implementation of the system.

    This applies to a number of other nitty gritty items. eg 'daily/competition adjustment' calculations. A number of serious statisticians are working their butts off I'm told


    I'll be interested to see the final product. I know I've had discussions with some people, often better players, who don't want to post scores from match play or fourball situations. While I can understand the differences in the decisions you might make, and understand that your score can be influenced, my reply has always been that they need to follow the current USGA rules and post them, whether they like it or not. And if they choose not to post, the Handicap Committee will decide what score to post on their behalf. Sadly, some of our best players are also some of the least knowledgeable about the handicap system, but the most vocal complainers about it.
  • KC4441KC4441 KCClubWRX Posts: 746 ClubWRX
    myspinonit wrote:


    I'm interested as this proceeds about the "adjustment algorithm" for abnormal weather conditions. Who determines what is abnormal for the round, how it's adjusted etc.




    This will be very interesting to me as well. We get some wild swings in weather in Kansas City during the early part of the "official" season (and really throughout the year).
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  • rogolfrogolf Members Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    davep043 wrote:

    Newby wrote:

    davep043 wrote:


    A quick question. There are still a few competition formats in which its not critical for each player to hole out on every hole, such as fourball stroke play. I'd have to assumed that the "most likely" score would be recorded for a player who picks up once his partner has holed a putt, is that correct? I'm also interested to find out what this means:




    The details of matchplay and fourball scoring for handicaps are still being worked on and no 'possibles' were suggested to us.. They may not be in the first implementation of the system.

    This applies to a number of other nitty gritty items. eg 'daily/competition adjustment' calculations. A number of serious statisticians are working their butts off I'm told


    I'll be interested to see the final product. I know I've had discussions with some people, often better players, who don't want to post scores from match play or fourball situations. While I can understand the differences in the decisions you might make, and understand that your score can be influenced, my reply has always been that they need to follow the current USGA rules and post them, whether they like it or not. And if they choose not to post, the Handicap Committee will decide what score to post on their behalf. Sadly, some of our best players are also some of the least knowledgeable about the Rules or the handicap system, but the most vocal complainers about it.


    Edited your post rather than create my own.
  • HaleboppHalebopp Members Posts: 2,899 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Newby wrote:

    Halebopp wrote:

    Newby wrote:


    Non-comp scores will need pre registration (and a marker). Effectively the same as CONGU supplementary scores.




    To me it seems kind of weird that a handicap based on the average of the best of the past 20 rounds wouldn't require all rounds to be posted. Also, I have doubts there would be enough extra day scores to provide any statistically valid information for the DSS/CBA system.




    You may or may not be right. But the initial promise was that national traditions would be supported. For how long was never mentioned.

    I am pretty sure if the emphasis in GB&I was moved away from competitions, CONGU would never have got involved. And the R&A would be well aware of that.



    You would have a better feel for the EGA's feelings. But the individual countries in the EGA are more diversified than GB&I




    Thanks for the info. If we were to base the system on what we do now, it would be "all attested rounds are accepted but not required" as the clubs tend to be happy people return any extra day scores to keep handicaps more up to date rather than require the preregistration and limit the number of scores returned. Of course, if anyone was to abuse the more relaxed attitude towards returning scores, the handicap committee would hear of it.
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  • ImpImp Fueled Members Posts: 6,065 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭


    I have my doubts and imagine it will be widely ignored or given lip service at the individual course or club level but we'll see.
    How would this be given lip service at the club/course level? Hopefully you're not thinking of people on the course picking up at double thereby speeding up rounds (which this change will not affect), which is different when actually entering the score (which this change will affect)...



    I'm sure you'll have some sly players saying "Ok, that's double, picking up." No, sorry, you need to finish the hole out.



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  • HaleboppHalebopp Members Posts: 2,899 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    KC4441 wrote:

    myspinonit wrote:


    I'm interested as this proceeds about the "adjustment algorithm" for abnormal weather conditions. Who determines what is abnormal for the round, how it's adjusted etc.




    This will be very interesting to me as well. We get some wild swings in weather in Kansas City during the early part of the "official" season (and really throughout the year).




    It doesn't consider the weather or the conditions in any way. The system simply compares returned scores to expected scores, if the scores were lower than expected, it assumes the conditions must've been easy and essentially adds a stroke or two to your score (the EGA limited it to two strokes either way at maximum and it's done for handicapping purposes only, it doesn't affect your actual score). If the returned scores are higher than expected, the system removes strokes from your score.



    Of course, it might be that people simply played better or worse that day without the actual conditions having anything to do with the adjustments. If there's fair weather for half the groups and terrible weather for the other half, there probably won't be major adjustments one way or the other as the scores are likely to end up close to what was expected.
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  • SawgrassSawgrass Members Posts: 15,270 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    The proposed max score per hole optional stroke play format, combined with the same ESC of double bogey for everyone, will yield far fewer errors in score posting as well as faster play.
  • HaleboppHalebopp Members Posts: 2,899 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Sawgrass wrote:


    The proposed max score per hole optional stroke play format, combined with the same ESC of double bogey for everyone, will yield far fewer errors in score posting as well as faster play.




    The one thing I don't understand is why not just use the existing Stableford (on which EGA handicaps are already based on) as it is exactly the same? The only reason I can think of is that some people wouldn't like to talk about points as opposed to strokes after a round. In my mind having two different "stroke scores" would be more confusing than a stroke play score and a Stableford score.
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  • DavePelz4DavePelz4 A golf course in the Chicago area.ClubWRX Posts: 24,965 ClubWRX
    Sawgrass wrote:


    The proposed max score per hole optional stroke play format, combined with the same ESC of double bogey for everyone, will yield far fewer errors in score posting as well as faster play.




    It also helps with sandbagging on some level.
  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,666 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Halebopp wrote:

    Sawgrass wrote:


    The proposed max score per hole optional stroke play format, combined with the same ESC of double bogey for everyone, will yield far fewer errors in score posting as well as faster play.




    The one thing I don't understand is why not just use the existing Stableford (on which EGA handicaps are already based on) as it is exactly the same? The only reason I can think of is that some people wouldn't like to talk about points as opposed to strokes after a round. In my mind having two different "stroke scores" would be more confusing than a stroke play score and a Stableford score.


    It seems to me that it would be a very simple computation to go from a total hole score to a total Stableford score, as long as the total hole score used the maximum of net double. Consequently, you may still be able to enter a Stableford score, and have the computer do the conversion. I'm guessing this is one of the things that may be left to your national golf association.
  • NewbyNewby Members Posts: 7,007 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Feb 20, 2018 #31
    Halebopp wrote:

    Sawgrass wrote:


    The proposed max score per hole optional stroke play format, combined with the same ESC of double bogey for everyone, will yield far fewer errors in score posting as well as faster play.




    The one thing I don't understand is why not just use the existing Stableford (on which EGA handicaps are already based on) as it is exactly the same? The only reason I can think of is that some people wouldn't like to talk about points as opposed to strokes after a round. In my mind having two different "stroke scores" would be more confusing than a stroke play score and a Stableford score.




    It will be net double bogey. The same as EGA and CONGU



    ie the lowest net no of strokes that produces zero stableford points on the hole



    But it will all be done within the computer software. There will be a massive investment by the R&A and USGA to support clubs

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