Tiger trackman data Honda Classic

[jmck]

The Trackman data the tour measures is flawed due to how they measure it. The unit isn't directly behind the player like how it's traditionally used as they have to be able to cover all shots from anywhere on the tee. So you get soon very poor launch angle and spin readings and some bad clubhead speed readings as a result

 

^^^^ This. Pro A stands on the right side of a tee box to hit a fade while Pro B stands on the left side of the tee box to hit a draw. Pro A and Pro B each swing 117.5 mph, but Trackman is going to spit out very different numbers top to bottom for the two shots, and neither set of numbers will say 117.5.

 

Don't put too much weight into those numbers. His swing passes the eye test better than it has in many years, and he just led the field in proximity to the hole after saying iron distance control was his big weakness last week. Those are the parts that are really encouraging--and of course him being able to play a few tournaments without any injury WDs.

 

Could be a very interesting Masters this year....

[jus711]

The Trackman data the tour measures is flawed due to how they measure it. The unit isn’t directly behind the player like how it’s traditionally used as they have to be able to cover all shots from anywhere on the tee. So you get soon very poor launch angle and spin readings and some bad clubhead speed readings as a result

 

Fair enough but it was the same for everyone and no one else was faster than him, nobody else got to 128 and there were some fast swingers playing. Rory was clocked at 122 with 180 ball speed on Sunday, that’s typical for him, but Tiger got 127 yesterday same hole, same monitor.

[jmck]

The Trackman data the tour measures is flawed due to how they measure it. The unit isn't directly behind the player like how it's traditionally used as they have to be able to cover all shots from anywhere on the tee. So you get soon very poor launch angle and spin readings and some bad clubhead speed readings as a result

 

Fair enough but it was the same for everyone and no one else was faster than him, nobody else got to 128 and there were some fast swingers playing. Rory was clocked at 122 with 180 ball speed on Sunday, that's typical for him, but Tiger got 127 yesterday same hole, same monitor.

 

No, the point is it wasn't the same for everyone. It would only be the same for everyone if everyone's tee peg was in the same exact place.

[starsail85]

I don’t really see what’s that hard to believe about 128 mph . He was averaging 124-124 mph in 2006-2007 when his body was starting to fail . He had a 191 ballspeed back in 2006 too . You would have to imagine he was swinging it faster than that pre 2002 when his knee first started playing up

[jus711]

Are we really not going to talk about how fast Tiger was swinging it this week or how incredible that is for someone his age on tour with his injury history? It even woke Brandel up, he looked like ghost talking about it. I only have the numbers for round 1 and 2 but on the weekend he was up to 128 and 127, he was playing low cuts into the wind so it hurt the overall distance and ball speed, but my mind is blown that he can still move it that fast, he's now tied for 4th on tour in clubbed speed and thats ahead of Rory, DJ, and JB and Bubba.

 

Do you have to have special credentials to access that data you posted in your screenshot? Looks like data I would drool over all day.

 

Here ya go

[jus711]

The Trackman data the tour measures is flawed due to how they measure it. The unit isn't directly behind the player like how it's traditionally used as they have to be able to cover all shots from anywhere on the tee. So you get soon very poor launch angle and spin readings and some bad clubhead speed readings as a result

 

Fair enough but it was the same for everyone and no one else was faster than him, nobody else got to 128 and there were some fast swingers playing. Rory was clocked at 122 with 180 ball speed on Sunday, that's typical for him, but Tiger got 127 yesterday same hole, same monitor.

 

No, the point is it wasn't the same for everyone. It would only be the same for everyone if everyone's tee peg was in the same exact place.

 

So it’s only inflating his numbers? He wasn’t the only person standing where he stood on the tee or playing the kind of shot he played and yet he was still the fastest 3 of the 4 days, I understand the skepticism considering his age and that he was at 119 last week but 4 swings over 124 is a pretty good sample, it’s not just one swing.

[iteachgolf]

The smash factor says it all. It’s over stating the clubhead speed. Do you know how bad you have to hit it to get 1.41 with a modern driver. Literally isn’t going to happen with where those balls actually went. Clubhead speed data won’t be accurate unless unit is directly behind the player. The launch data at times is laughably wrong.

 

 

Looking at the numbers I’d bet a good sum of money they moved the unit/tee on the weekend which is why you see the inflated clubhead speed while the ball speed stayed the same. Again radar will absolutely give bad club data when not setup behind a player.

[nochct1]

His smash factor ranked 110th or so. Not a recipe for great contact. He should swing 116-118 like Rahm and Justin Thomas and then he'd actually hit fairways

 

Looking at pgatour.com it looks like Tiger hit more fairways than Thomas.

[bscinstnct]

TW trackman be like,

 

[GMR]

That screenshot above shows a remarkably consistent ballspeed just above 181 despite clubhead speed all over the place. If you just imagine for a second that the CHS reading is off and that he's actually getting making good contact with smash around 1.49, you get to 121.5 CHS, which is incidentally within 0.6mph of his season average of 122.1...

 

As if it actually matters much once you get above 120mph as to your ability to compete.

[jus711]

The smash factor says it all. It's over stating the clubhead speed. Do you know how bad you have to hit it to get 1.41 with a modern driver. Literally isn't going to happen with where those balls actually went. Clubhead speed data won't be accurate unless unit is directly behind the player. The launch data at times is laughably wrong.

 

 

Looking at the numbers I'd bet a good sum of money they moved the unit/tee on the weekend which is why you see the inflated clubhead speed while the ball speed stayed the same. Again radar will absolutely give bad club data when not setup behind a player.

 

Perhaps somewhat, but you also have to factor in his negative AoA, he's always been inefficient relative to his swing speed because of that, Sergio is one of the best ball strikers ever and his smash factor is always near the bottom because he hits down on the driver too. Look at this chart from Trackman and the effect negative AoA has on ball speed and carry.

[jus711]

That screenshot above shows a remarkably consistent ballspeed just above 181 despite clubhead speed all over the place. If you just imagine for a second that the CHS reading is off and that he's actually getting making good contact with smash around 1.49, you get to 121.5 CHS, which is incidentally within 0.6mph of his season average of 122.1...

 

As if it actually matters much once you get above 120mph as to your ability to compete.

 

His season average is 122 because he was 118-120 on the west coast and 124-128 this week its the mean not the mode, but even if he's "only" swinging 122 thats still quite incredible for someone his age and his injury history.

[Ferguson]

The Trackman data the tour measures is flawed due to how they measure it. The unit isn't directly behind the player like how it's traditionally used as they have to be able to cover all shots from anywhere on the tee. So you get soon very poor launch angle and spin readings and some bad clubhead speed readings as a result

 

 

 

Yes, but weak data and speculation makes for such wonderful nonunidirectional dialogue.

 

 

I am the biggest Tiger fan out there, but there is one important fact missing from trackman data. He didn't win. Not even close.

The Tiger has a lot more work to do before he gets his chops back.

[iteachgolf]

The smash factor says it all. It's over stating the clubhead speed. Do you know how bad you have to hit it to get 1.41 with a modern driver. Literally isn't going to happen with where those balls actually went. Clubhead speed data won't be accurate unless unit is directly behind the player. The launch data at times is laughably wrong.

 

 

Looking at the numbers I'd bet a good sum of money they moved the unit/tee on the weekend which is why you see the inflated clubhead speed while the ball speed stayed the same. Again radar will absolutely give bad club data when not setup behind a player.

 

Perhaps somewhat, but you also have to factor in his negative AoA, he's always been inefficient relative to his swing speed because of that, Sergio is one of the best ball strikers ever and his smash factor is always near the bottom because he hits down on the driver too. Look at this chart from Trackman and the effect negative AoA has on ball speed and carry.

 

That chart is total and complete BS. Just made up numbers. Hitting down on it is not going to affect his smash factor. They both still have low spin lofts. They just launch the ball lower.

 

Im on the advisory board of a radar company. I’m well aware of how they work. I also work with a ton of players who swing 120+ mph. I can tell you that those clubhead speed numbers at 128mph are complete misreads.

 

Brandon Hagy hits down on it as does a ton of the PGA Tour and has the highest ball speeds.

[jus711]

The smash factor says it all. It's over stating the clubhead speed. Do you know how bad you have to hit it to get 1.41 with a modern driver. Literally isn't going to happen with where those balls actually went. Clubhead speed data won't be accurate unless unit is directly behind the player. The launch data at times is laughably wrong.

 

 

Looking at the numbers I'd bet a good sum of money they moved the unit/tee on the weekend which is why you see the inflated clubhead speed while the ball speed stayed the same. Again radar will absolutely give bad club data when not setup behind a player.

 

Sergio averaged 119.76 clubhead speed last year with 175.13 ball speed and a smash factor of 1.46 over 65 rounds, we all know he can hit the ball off the center of the club face. So obviously something else is at work, he hits down and plays a low cut, maybe trackman doesn't accurately gauge players who hit like that, but certainly its not a fluke if those type of numbers come up consistently.

[iteachgolf]

That screenshot above shows a remarkably consistent ballspeed just above 181 despite clubhead speed all over the place. If you just imagine for a second that the CHS reading is off and that he's actually getting making good contact with smash around 1.49, you get to 121.5 CHS, which is incidentally within 0.6mph of his season average of 122.1...

 

As if it actually matters much once you get above 120mph as to your ability to compete.

 

His season average is 122 because he was 118-120 on the west coast and 124-128 this week its the mean not the mode, but even if he's "only" swinging 122 thats still quite incredible for someone his age and his injury history.

 

Yet his ball speed stayed exactly the same? You will ignore anything that doesn’t support your position even when someone with real world knowledge gives you facts. Due to placement of the radar and where he teed off on the holes this week his clubhead speed data was 100% inflated.

 

That screenshot above shows a remarkably consistent ballspeed just above 181 despite clubhead speed all over the place. If you just imagine for a second that the CHS reading is off and that he's actually getting making good contact with smash around 1.49, you get to 121.5 CHS, which is incidentally within 0.6mph of his season average of 122.1...

 

As if it actually matters much once you get above 120mph as to your ability to compete.

 

His season average is 122 because he was 118-120 on the west coast and 124-128 this week its the mean not the mode, but even if he's "only" swinging 122 thats still quite incredible for someone his age and his injury history.

 

Yet his ball speed stayed exactly the same? You will ignore anything that doesn’t support your position even when someone with real world knowledge gives you facts. Due to placement of the radar and where he teed off on the holes this week his clubhead speed data was 100% inflated.

[jmck]

The smash factor says it all. It's over stating the clubhead speed. Do you know how bad you have to hit it to get 1.41 with a modern driver. Literally isn't going to happen with where those balls actually went. Clubhead speed data won't be accurate unless unit is directly behind the player. The launch data at times is laughably wrong.

 

 

Looking at the numbers I'd bet a good sum of money they moved the unit/tee on the weekend which is why you see the inflated clubhead speed while the ball speed stayed the same. Again radar will absolutely give bad club data when not setup behind a player.

 

OP, please listen to this man ^^^^. There is no chance TW's smash factor is 1.41, just like there is no chance TW's club head speed is 128.

 

There are many other VERY encouraging signs from his play this last month, but 128 club head speed isn't one of them. That is obviously--and I mean OBVIOUSLY--bad data.

[iteachgolf]

The smash factor says it all. It's over stating the clubhead speed. Do you know how bad you have to hit it to get 1.41 with a modern driver. Literally isn't going to happen with where those balls actually went. Clubhead speed data won't be accurate unless unit is directly behind the player. The launch data at times is laughably wrong.

 

 

Looking at the numbers I'd bet a good sum of money they moved the unit/tee on the weekend which is why you see the inflated clubhead speed while the ball speed stayed the same. Again radar will absolutely give bad club data when not setup behind a player.

 

Sergio averaged 119.76 clubhead speed last year with 175.13 ball speed and a smash factor of 1.46 over 65 rounds, we all know he can hit the ball off the center of the club face. So obviously something else is at work, he hits down and plays a low cut, maybe trackman doesn't accurately gauge players who hit like that, but certainly its not a fluke if those type of numbers come up consistently.

 

Again the club data measured on tour is inaccurate because of how it’s measured. It will both overstate and understate clubhead depending on placement. Why you see players also get smash factors over 1.5 which isn’t possible. How many different ways do you want me to tell you that the clubhead speed data is virtually worthless with how they measure it.

 

 

It’s the same reason they show some players have launched a driver at 1.7* this year. The data is flawed.

[jus711]

That screenshot above shows a remarkably consistent ballspeed just above 181 despite clubhead speed all over the place. If you just imagine for a second that the CHS reading is off and that he's actually getting making good contact with smash around 1.49, you get to 121.5 CHS, which is incidentally within 0.6mph of his season average of 122.1...

 

As if it actually matters much once you get above 120mph as to your ability to compete.

 

His season average is 122 because he was 118-120 on the west coast and 124-128 this week its the mean not the mode, but even if he's "only" swinging 122 thats still quite incredible for someone his age and his injury history.

 

Yet his ball speed stayed exactly the same? You will ignore anything that doesn't support your position even when someone with real world knowledge gives you facts. Due to placement of the radar and where he teed off on the holes this week his clubhead speed data was 100% inflated.

 

That screenshot above shows a remarkably consistent ballspeed just above 181 despite clubhead speed all over the place. If you just imagine for a second that the CHS reading is off and that he's actually getting making good contact with smash around 1.49, you get to 121.5 CHS, which is incidentally within 0.6mph of his season average of 122.1...

 

As if it actually matters much once you get above 120mph as to your ability to compete.

 

His season average is 122 because he was 118-120 on the west coast and 124-128 this week its the mean not the mode, but even if he's "only" swinging 122 thats still quite incredible for someone his age and his injury history.

 

Yet his ball speed stayed exactly the same? You will ignore anything that doesn't support your position even when someone with real world knowledge gives you facts. Due to placement of the radar and where he teed off on the holes this week his clubhead speed data was 100% inflated.

 

I'm not ignoring anything, im willing to accept that the clubhead numbers are off, im just not willing to accept that they're off for just him, he was the fastest swinger on that hole 3/4 days and ended up 3rd in driving distance for the week including hitting 184 ball speed on 10 on Friday. Whatever the true number is (128, 122, 124), he's pounding it and thats incredible and good to see.

[jus711]

From this article on Tiger's club testing in January:

 

"For a guy who played his first competitive tournament in 10 months at the Hero World Challenge in December and just got back into the groove of practicing on a regular basis, Woods doesn't show any signs of rust. Save for the occasional mis-hit, Woods brought his A-game to the range. That's evident from the 125-126 mph head speed and 181 mph ball speed that's producing 12-plus degrees of launch and upwards of 316 yards of carry on a regular basis."

 

https://www.pgatour.com/news/2018/01/22/tiger-woods-taylormade-testing-session.html

[bscinstnct]

The smash factor says it all. It's over stating the clubhead speed. Do you know how bad you have to hit it to get 1.41 with a modern driver. Literally isn't going to happen with where those balls actually went. Clubhead speed data won't be accurate unless unit is directly behind the player. The launch data at times is laughably wrong.

 

 

Looking at the numbers I'd bet a good sum of money they moved the unit/tee on the weekend which is why you see the inflated clubhead speed while the ball speed stayed the same. Again radar will absolutely give bad club data when not setup behind a player.

 

OP, please listen to this man ^^^^. There is no chance TW's smash factor is 1.41, just like there is no chance TW's club head speed is 128.

 

There are many other VERY encouraging signs from his play this last month, but 128 club head speed isn't one of them. That is obviously--and I mean OBVIOUSLY--bad data.

 

I agree, 128 sounded just a bit crazy.

 

Bottom line is he's hitting it as far as anybody and hitting if farther then just about everybody. Just a part of making this comeback a success but it's a key one. I was thinking TW could never get back to the days of his tearing up Par-5s. Actaully doing it means a lot more than just club head speed but it's not possible to do without club head speed.

[GMR]

From this article on Tiger's club testing in January:

 

"For a guy who played his first competitive tournament in 10 months at the Hero World Challenge in December and just got back into the groove of practicing on a regular basis, Woods doesn't show any signs of rust. Save for the occasional mis-hit, Woods brought his A-game to the range. That's evident from the 125-126 mph head speed and 181 mph ball speed that's producing 12-plus degrees of launch and upwards of 316 yards of carry on a regular basis."

 

https://www.pgatour....ng-session.html

So Tiger was striping the ball at Albany...with less than a 1.44 smash factor? Something wrong there methinks.

[starsail85]

6* launch is pretty low!

[jus711]

From this article on Tiger's club testing in January:

 

"For a guy who played his first competitive tournament in 10 months at the Hero World Challenge in December and just got back into the groove of practicing on a regular basis, Woods doesn't show any signs of rust. Save for the occasional mis-hit, Woods brought his A-game to the range. That's evident from the 125-126 mph head speed and 181 mph ball speed that's producing 12-plus degrees of launch and upwards of 316 yards of carry on a regular basis."

 

https://www.pgatour....ng-session.html

So Tiger was striping the ball at Albany...with less than a 1.44 smash factor? Something wrong there methinks.

That wasn't at Albany, that was after the tournament in January when he was testing clubs at TaylorMade's facility.

[puresurfr]

Too bad SiliconValleyDave can't chime in on this thread......He could tell us about how his Rogue is giving us a smash factor of 1.53 and how his normal swing is 120mph but up to 140 when he swings all out. : P

 

* He was banned however, so he can't chime in unless he has multiple accounts

[GMR]

From this article on Tiger's club testing in January:

 

"For a guy who played his first competitive tournament in 10 months at the Hero World Challenge in December and just got back into the groove of practicing on a regular basis, Woods doesn't show any signs of rust. Save for the occasional mis-hit, Woods brought his A-game to the range. That's evident from the 125-126 mph head speed and 181 mph ball speed that's producing 12-plus degrees of launch and upwards of 316 yards of carry on a regular basis."

 

https://www.pgatour....ng-session.html

So Tiger was striping the ball at Albany...with less than a 1.44 smash factor? Something wrong there methinks.

That wasn't at Albany, that was after the tournament in January when he was testing clubs at TaylorMade's facility.

OK fair enough, what does that change exactly regarding the accuracy of the data? He was getting 181 ball speed (incidentally the exact same 181 ball speed we've seen in every showing out so far) and that's supposed to be produced by a 126mph swing?

[jus711]

From this article on Tiger's club testing in January:

 

"For a guy who played his first competitive tournament in 10 months at the Hero World Challenge in December and just got back into the groove of practicing on a regular basis, Woods doesn't show any signs of rust. Save for the occasional mis-hit, Woods brought his A-game to the range. That's evident from the 125-126 mph head speed and 181 mph ball speed that's producing 12-plus degrees of launch and upwards of 316 yards of carry on a regular basis."

 

https://www.pgatour....ng-session.html

So Tiger was striping the ball at Albany...with less than a 1.44 smash factor? Something wrong there methinks.

That wasn't at Albany, that was after the tournament in January when he was testing clubs at TaylorMade's facility.

OK fair enough, what does that change exactly regarding the accuracy of the data? He was getting 181 ball speed (incidentally the exact same 181 ball speed we've seen in every showing out so far) and that's supposed to be produced by a 126mph swing?

 

Like I said perhaps it’s a flaw in trackman in accurately gauging swings like his, but it does disprove the idea that it was simply a bad monitor this weekend on that hole or how it was setup, I assume Taylormade knows how to set us their monitor and he was getting similar numbers a month ago.

[jmck]

His season long club head speed is 4th on tour and his season long smash factor is 181st on tour. Those number are based on nine--NINE!--drives. One of those drives, this 1.41 smash/128mph club head speed one, is obviously, clearly way off. Rory and DJ's numbers are based on 8 drives each. The people who have played more are around 20-25 measured drives right now. You need to get somewhere out towards 100+ drives before this data is going to be at all meaningful and the noise from bad measurements drops off.

 

You want to use somewhat meaningful data to analyze TW's driving thus far? Look at one of the stats where they count every drive. On those stats he's at 10 rounds, so figure ~140 tee shots, probably ~2/3 of those hit with driver. So now you're right around 100 actual drivers, with various FW woods and long irons in the mix as well. Counting every tee shot he's 213th in accuracy, and 146th in SG from the tee. For distance he's 29th, but that's two measurements per round so n=20 there.

 

So yeah, generally speaking he's got his speed back, but there is still work to do. There have been A LOT of things to get enthused about in how he's looked in the last month, but driving in general isn't one of them, and one specific swing that Trackman said was 128 is really really really not one of them. At 146th is SG from the tee he'll need to get better or to have a hot week with the driver if he's going to win, just the same as whoever is 146th in SG putting either needs to get better or have a hot week to win.

[QuigleyDU]

The smash factor says it all. It's over stating the clubhead speed. Do you know how bad you have to hit it to get 1.41 with a modern driver. Literally isn't going to happen with where those balls actually went. Clubhead speed data won't be accurate unless unit is directly behind the player. The launch data at times is laughably wrong.

 

 

Looking at the numbers I'd bet a good sum of money they moved the unit/tee on the weekend which is why you see the inflated clubhead speed while the ball speed stayed the same. Again radar will absolutely give bad club data when not setup behind a player.

 

Sergio averaged 119.76 clubhead speed last year with 175.13 ball speed and a smash factor of 1.46 over 65 rounds, we all know he can hit the ball off the center of the club face. So obviously something else is at work, he hits down and plays a low cut, maybe trackman doesn't accurately gauge players who hit like that, but certainly its not a fluke if those type of numbers come up consistently.

 

Again the club data measured on tour is inaccurate because of how it's measured. It will both overstate and understate clubhead depending on placement. Why you see players also get smash factors over 1.5 which isn't possible. How many different ways do you want me to tell you that the clubhead speed data is virtually worthless with how they measure it.

 

 

It's the same reason they show some players have launched a driver at 1.7* this year. The data is flawed.

 

you have shown much more patience than i would with this. i dont understand why people continue to argue after it has all been proven wrong. ! have always thought the trackman numbers shown (again for all golfers) was off for the tv broadcasts. Thank you for your supporting evidence.

[jus711]

His season long club head speed is 4th on tour and his season long smash factor is 181st on tour. Those number are based on nine--NINE!--drives. One of those drives, this 1.41 smash/128mph club head speed one, is obviously, clearly way off. Rory and DJ's numbers are based on 8 drives each. The people who have played more are around 20-25 measured drives right now. You need to get somewhere out towards 100+ drives before this data is going to be at all meaningful and the noise from bad measurements drops off.

 

You want to use somewhat meaningful data to analyze TW's driving thus far? Look at one of the stats where they count every drive. On those stats he's at 10 rounds, so figure ~140 tee shots, probably ~2/3 of those hit with driver. So now you're right around 100 actual drivers, with various FW woods and long irons in the mix as well. Counting every tee shot he's 213th in accuracy, and 146th in SG from the tee. For distance he's 29th, but that's two measurements per round so n=20 there.

 

So yeah, generally speaking he's got his speed back, but there is still work to do. There have been A LOT of things to get enthused about in how he's looked in the last month, but driving in general isn't one of them, and one specific swing that Trackman said was 128 is really really really not one of them. At 146th is SG from the tee he'll need to get better or to have a hot week with the driver if he's going to win, just the same as whoever is 146th in SG putting either needs to get better or have a hot week to win.

 

I agree that it’s a small sample, but I actually think his driving was way better this week and worth getting excited about, throw out the club head speed, even just the ball speed is elite and if he can do that with something close to 60% accuracy then he’s going to be a major factor. A lot of the fast swingers are way down on the smash factor list even if you go back and look at years with larger samples, Rory is 178th right now for instance, maybe trackman technology is flawed, maybe there’s diminishing returns the faster you swing, I’m sure it’s a combination of a lot of things.