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The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy


Kiwi2

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Module 7 Trailer

 

 

 

Here is the description from our website about Module Seven on Balance. Total viewing time is one hour and twenty-two minutes.

 

"The Module Seven video in our Great Shot!: Mastering the Craft of Ballstriking video instruction series is devoted to one of Jim Waldron’s three Master Fundamentals of the Golf Swing: Balance, and how the Lower Body performs in the model golf swing. Topics covered include: Dynamic Balance, ballstriking balance drills, balance points in the feet, Vertical Balance Line, ground force pressures, the truth about “weight shift” in the lower body, Lower Body Stability Platform and why it is so essential to good ballstriking, the toxic influence of the Righting Instinct, Balance centers in the body, proper footwork, the Sam Snead bow-legged “squat” and how the proper mechanics of the knees, feet, legs and hips will allow you to achieve much more consistent ballstriking."

 

Available for purchase/download here: http://www.balancepointgolf.com/index.php/pro-shop/golf-videos/product/50-great-shot-module-7

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  • 3 weeks later...
UPDATE: Here is a link to my new video on the Arm Swing Illusion, released on July 15, 2015. For those of you who find this illusion concept fascinating and helpful, whether you intend to continue on in your reading and study of this mega-thread, consider buying the video (available from our website as a convenient download) and watching it several times. It is designed to be as close as possible to the actual experience of a live golf school with me, and is a total viewing time of 2 hours and 42 minutes. It covers the arm swing illusion, as well as several related illusions, in depth. The video consists of an Introduction to the basic concept, drills for de-constructing the Illusion from your subconscious mind swing map that are done without a golf ball, and finally drills you can do with a ball during range practice. Any golfer who watches this video with a truly open mind will come away with a radical new understanding of what is actually happening in the modern tour pro golf swing. It is a mind-blowing experience that will challenge your previously un-questioned basic assumptions about what should be happening with the arm motion in a good golf swing. If you struggle with sucking the arms and club way inside the ideal plane in the backswing, over the top move during Transition, early wrist c0ck release and flipping, and arm dis-connection during Release, this video will show you the primary root cause of those Fatal Flaws. http://www.balancepo...hop/golf-videos And here is a small sample of that video:
We have completed the follow up video to that Arm Swing Illusion video: "Module Three - Advanced Arm Mechanics and Educated Hands" in two parts, a nearly three hour video Part A and a 40 minute video Part B. Both are available for download at the above link to our website. Module Three goes into a very detailed and technical explanation of the proper arm mechanics, and covers the Triangle concept, the Three Arm Pressures, more on the arm swing illusion, both swing map, slow motion mirror and ballstriking drills focusing on proper arm mechanics. Module Three also covers Elements Five through Nine of Educated Hands in the Balance Point System having to do with various forms of pressure, and awareness of hand path, clubhead weight, etc. Module Four: Mechanics of the Pivot video is now available from our site as well. http://www.balancepo...x.php/pro-shop. Once you have a clear understanding of how the arms should work from Modules Two and Three, the next step is to learn about the basic elements of the Pivot: lateral weight shift on the forward swing, rotation, side tilt, forward Spine Angle, Tilt Illusion, Power sources, Pivot Thrust, Transition Trigger and related elements. My e-book "Great Shot! Mastering the Craft of Ballstriking" also covers the Arm Swing Illusion material, but more importantly is a 205 page "encyclopedia" about the modern golf swing fundamentals, including sections on how to learn and practice effectively. http://www.balancepo...ro-shop/e-books Thanks, Kiwi, for explaining that. The arms pushaway on a 45 degree angle to the chest, while the chest is rotating, in an actual golf swing. But - when we first present the Illusion concept in our golf schools, we do an exaggeration drill where there is no Pivot, to show what the arms actually do in relation to the chest, and in that drill, a club is placed on the ground from the middle of one's stance on a 45 degree angle to one's right. We practice the arm pushaway action which results in the golf club in one's hands being over the shaft on the ground, and the club in one's hands parallel to the ground, with just a touch of wrist hinge and c0ck as well. Then - we do the chest/belly Pivot with arms across the chest to around 45 degrees of chest rotation. Then we combine the arm 45 angle pushaway with the chest rotation for a perfectly on-plane takeaway or moveaway motion. The blending of the two motions is the key to a real takeaway. Russc - you are taking connection too literally. You can have the left tricep touching the pecs while the upper left arm is moving on that angle to the right of mid-line a bit. We call it "connection in motion". And it happens for most of my students after the first third or so of the actual moveaway segment. Although you could certainly do it right from the start and still keep the upper left arm touching the pec as you start to do the pushaway motion. I recommend that option for some students who are way too inside with their arms during moveaway. You just have to synchronize the two at the right speed - otherwise you will get a seperation of the left arm from the pec.
I have a hard time with this concept. There can be no question that in the better players the left arm (for the right handed golfer) abducts in toward the chest as the reach the top of their backswing. Look at Bubba Watson or Ricky Fowler. At the top of their back swing their lead arm is laying across their chest. It is not at a 45 degree angle. Therefore their arms have in fact swung across their chest. I have a hard time with this concept. There can be no question that in the better players the left arm (for the right handed golfer) abducts in toward the chest as the reach the top of their backswing. Look at Bubba Watson or Ricky Fowler. At the top of their back swing their lead arm is laying across their chest. It is not at a 45 degree angle. Therefore their arms have in fact swung across their chest.
  • 0

Your understanding of the concept is flawed. The 45 degree angle is for the takeaway - NOT the Top of backswing. Of course the arm moves on an angle to the right of golfers mid-line, but that can happen in two very different ways: the correct way is while also pushing the hands out away from your chest and the incorrect way - which gets you stuck - is to pull the arms in toward you, almost always along with a lot of bend in the right elbow. As the second half of backswing proceeds, the 45 angle will increase due to a blend of postural elements and pivot momentum, to a maximum of 70 degrees with the driver. If you really want to understand the ASI in depth, and overcome the illusion and it's toxic effects on your swing, I suggest getting my Module Two video on the ASI.

 

Jim, I don't think his understanding of it is flawed, it's just a different way of interpreting it. I believe he was saying that if you have a back swing with no abduction it would be very short and awkward since you didn't mention anything about arm abduction in the post he quoted. My left arm would point 180 degrees away from the the target with no abduction, whereas with abduction it gets to maybe 250ish degrees (obviously dependent on a persons flexibility.) I can understand both of your point of views, and I think both of you are correct.

 

I have a question for you. I can reach the same point at the top of my backswing whether I lift my arms at a 45 degree and or not; just like you stated. The point of doing it your way is just to maintain the backswing of the club on the same swing plane as the downswing, correct? This is why instructors have you move the club straight back on the beginning of the backswing; it forces you to start moving the arms up?

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UPDATE: Here is a link to my new video on the Arm Swing Illusion, released on July 15, 2015. For those of you who find this illusion concept fascinating and helpful, whether you intend to continue on in your reading and study of this mega-thread, consider buying the video (available from our website as a convenient download) and watching it several times. It is designed to be as close as possible to the actual experience of a live golf school with me, and is a total viewing time of 2 hours and 42 minutes. It covers the arm swing illusion, as well as several related illusions, in depth. The video consists of an Introduction to the basic concept, drills for de-constructing the Illusion from your subconscious mind swing map that are done without a golf ball, and finally drills you can do with a ball during range practice. Any golfer who watches this video with a truly open mind will come away with a radical new understanding of what is actually happening in the modern tour pro golf swing. It is a mind-blowing experience that will challenge your previously un-questioned basic assumptions about what should be happening with the arm motion in a good golf swing. If you struggle with sucking the arms and club way inside the ideal plane in the backswing, over the top move during Transition, early wrist c0ck release and flipping, and arm dis-connection during Release, this video will show you the primary root cause of those Fatal Flaws. http://www.balancepo...hop/golf-videos And here is a small sample of that video:
We have completed the follow up video to that Arm Swing Illusion video: "Module Three - Advanced Arm Mechanics and Educated Hands" in two parts, a nearly three hour video Part A and a 40 minute video Part B. Both are available for download at the above link to our website. Module Three goes into a very detailed and technical explanation of the proper arm mechanics, and covers the Triangle concept, the Three Arm Pressures, more on the arm swing illusion, both swing map, slow motion mirror and ballstriking drills focusing on proper arm mechanics. Module Three also covers Elements Five through Nine of Educated Hands in the Balance Point System having to do with various forms of pressure, and awareness of hand path, clubhead weight, etc. Module Four: Mechanics of the Pivot video is now available from our site as well. http://www.balancepo...x.php/pro-shop. Once you have a clear understanding of how the arms should work from Modules Two and Three, the next step is to learn about the basic elements of the Pivot: lateral weight shift on the forward swing, rotation, side tilt, forward Spine Angle, Tilt Illusion, Power sources, Pivot Thrust, Transition Trigger and related elements. My e-book "Great Shot! Mastering the Craft of Ballstriking" also covers the Arm Swing Illusion material, but more importantly is a 205 page "encyclopedia" about the modern golf swing fundamentals, including sections on how to learn and practice effectively. http://www.balancepo...ro-shop/e-books Thanks, Kiwi, for explaining that. The arms pushaway on a 45 degree angle to the chest, while the chest is rotating, in an actual golf swing. But - when we first present the Illusion concept in our golf schools, we do an exaggeration drill where there is no Pivot, to show what the arms actually do in relation to the chest, and in that drill, a club is placed on the ground from the middle of one's stance on a 45 degree angle to one's right. We practice the arm pushaway action which results in the golf club in one's hands being over the shaft on the ground, and the club in one's hands parallel to the ground, with just a touch of wrist hinge and c0ck as well. Then - we do the chest/belly Pivot with arms across the chest to around 45 degrees of chest rotation. Then we combine the arm 45 angle pushaway with the chest rotation for a perfectly on-plane takeaway or moveaway motion. The blending of the two motions is the key to a real takeaway. Russc - you are taking connection too literally. You can have the left tricep touching the pecs while the upper left arm is moving on that angle to the right of mid-line a bit. We call it "connection in motion". And it happens for most of my students after the first third or so of the actual moveaway segment. Although you could certainly do it right from the start and still keep the upper left arm touching the pec as you start to do the pushaway motion. I recommend that option for some students who are way too inside with their arms during moveaway. You just have to synchronize the two at the right speed - otherwise you will get a seperation of the left arm from the pec.
I have a hard time with this concept. There can be no question that in the better players the left arm (for the right handed golfer) abducts in toward the chest as the reach the top of their backswing. Look at Bubba Watson or Ricky Fowler. At the top of their back swing their lead arm is laying across their chest. It is not at a 45 degree angle. Therefore their arms have in fact swung across their chest. I have a hard time with this concept. There can be no question that in the better players the left arm (for the right handed golfer) abducts in toward the chest as the reach the top of their backswing. Look at Bubba Watson or Ricky Fowler. At the top of their back swing their lead arm is laying across their chest. It is not at a 45 degree angle. Therefore their arms have in fact swung across their chest.
  • 0

Your understanding of the concept is flawed. The 45 degree angle is for the takeaway - NOT the Top of backswing. Of course the arm moves on an angle to the right of golfers mid-line, but that can happen in two very different ways: the correct way is while also pushing the hands out away from your chest and the incorrect way - which gets you stuck - is to pull the arms in toward you, almost always along with a lot of bend in the right elbow. As the second half of backswing proceeds, the 45 angle will increase due to a blend of postural elements and pivot momentum, to a maximum of 70 degrees with the driver. If you really want to understand the ASI in depth, and overcome the illusion and it's toxic effects on your swing, I suggest getting my Module Two video on the ASI.

 

Jim, I don't think his understanding of it is flawed, it's just a different way of interpreting it. I believe he was saying that if you have a back swing with no abduction it would be very short and awkward since you didn't mention anything about arm abduction in the post he quoted. My left arm would point 180 degrees away from the the target with no abduction, whereas with abduction it gets to maybe 250ish degrees (obviously dependent on a persons flexibility.) I can understand both of your point of views, and I think both of you are correct.

 

I have a question for you. I can reach the same point at the top of my backswing whether I lift my arms at a 45 degree and or not; just like you stated. The point of doing it your way is just to maintain the backswing of the club on the same swing plane as the downswing, correct? This is why instructors have you move the club straight back on the beginning of the backswing; it forces you to start moving the arms up?

 

 

Sorry, but his understanding could not be more flawed. I have never - ever - taught that there is zero abduction of the lead arm. Any one reading this thread will understand that. His entire premise is blatantly wrong.

 

Any golfer with an open mind will not have a problem understanding what I advocate as far as the asi concept. Lead arm moves to a 45 degree angle to the chest on takeaway, and further abducts on second half of backswing (except for wedges which will maintain that 45 angle or close to it) up to 75 degrees with a driver. Then the lead arm will adduct - move back closer to mid-line of torso - during Transition.

 

Yes - keeping shaft on plane requires the arm pushaway blended into the Pivot along with wrist c0ck and hinge, and prevents you from getting arms stuck behind the body. Not sure I understand your question about "forcing" arm lift. I do not teach using arm muscles to lift the arms - folding of right elbow makes the left arm go up. The pushaway also creates more width for a wider arc and more clubhead speed.

 

Arms move up and down in a V shape motion in front of the rotating chest - NOT an I shaped motion which is what would happen if there was no abduction/adduction.

 

If anyone really struggles with understanding this, there is an easy solution: buy and study my Module Two video on the ASI, it is over two hours in length and explores this subject in depth. I have never had a single person who bought the video and studied it tell me that they still did not "get it".

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  • 2 weeks later...

A major part of Jim Waldron’s teaching is based on overcoming what he calls

the Arm Swing Illusion. Jim has found that many of his students improve

rapidly once they become aware of it.

 

Questions have been asked on the forum for an explanation. With Jim’s approval a condensed and simplified explanation follows.

 

What is it?

It is an illusion which is created by our natural tendency to view the swing

in a two dimensional way. This causes us to see the swinging motion of the

arms hands and club as a sideways movement across the chest and around the

torso.

It appears that way to us as we look down at the ball during the swing. It

also appears that way as we observe others swinging.

This has caused problems for many as they try to learn the golf swing.

 

What really happens with the arms in a good motion?

If we isolate the arm action from the pivot, they initially move at a 45 degree angle to the chest towards the

target line until, for a right handed golfer, the right arm reaches waist

high.

The right elbow then bends to around 90 degrees which raises the left arm.

The independent arm action then stops as the torso continues turning so that

the shoulder girdle is at a 90 degree angle to the spine.

In other words the arms push away from the torso rather than being pulled in

towards it.

 

Jim has some drills that help learn this and they work. But they are part of

his teaching and you will need to either take a lesson from him, or wait

until his books are published to learn them.

 

How do I know what it is?

I have spent time with Jim in Hawaii over two occasions not so many years ago. Both experiences were very positive.The first time I attended his Ultimate Golf School (two attendees). The Second, his Great Shot (6 attendees) and Rip it to the Target mental game school (I was the only attendee). Jim then invited me back to help. Other commitments have stopped me doing this to date. I have his DVDs and his manuals.

 

I hope that answered some of your questions.

Cool I guess seems a bit over complicated with to many degrees and not enough visual explanation.
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A major part of Jim Waldron’s teaching is based on overcoming what he calls

the Arm Swing Illusion. Jim has found that many of his students improve

rapidly once they become aware of it.

 

Questions have been asked on the forum for an explanation. With Jim’s approval a condensed and simplified explanation follows.

 

What is it?

It is an illusion which is created by our natural tendency to view the swing

in a two dimensional way. This causes us to see the swinging motion of the

arms hands and club as a sideways movement across the chest and around the

torso.

It appears that way to us as we look down at the ball during the swing. It

also appears that way as we observe others swinging.

This has caused problems for many as they try to learn the golf swing.

 

What really happens with the arms in a good motion?

If we isolate the arm action from the pivot, they initially move at a 45 degree angle to the chest towards the

target line until, for a right handed golfer, the right arm reaches waist

high.

The right elbow then bends to around 90 degrees which raises the left arm.

The independent arm action then stops as the torso continues turning so that

the shoulder girdle is at a 90 degree angle to the spine.

In other words the arms push away from the torso rather than being pulled in

towards it.

 

Jim has some drills that help learn this and they work. But they are part of

his teaching and you will need to either take a lesson from him, or wait

until his books are published to learn them.

 

How do I know what it is?

I have spent time with Jim in Hawaii over two occasions not so many years ago. Both experiences were very positive.The first time I attended his Ultimate Golf School (two attendees). The Second, his Great Shot (6 attendees) and Rip it to the Target mental game school (I was the only attendee). Jim then invited me back to help. Other commitments have stopped me doing this to date. I have his DVDs and his manuals.

 

I hope that answered some of your questions.

Cool I guess seems a bit over complicated with to many degrees and not enough visual explanation.

 

That was just the first of many, many posts, and Kiwi was just presenting the basic concept for discussion. Its not complicated at all, but is impossible to understand if you don't have an open mind. Plenty of visual references in this thread if you take the time to look for them. Or get the 2.5 hour video mentioned above that explores the asi concept in depth.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I have been dealing with a right shoulder issue that has significantly affected my swing. My ability to rotate the right arm externally is impaired and my normal swing, which has always been arm swing dependent, causes too much pain to get the left arm up enough. In trying this philosophy, my left arm can actually get high enough where I can swing, as the right arm isn't going too far around, but more up and down. My question is on the rotation of the forearms, does any occur in the downswing? I did purchase the ebook, but I cannot download it.

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I have been dealing with a right shoulder issue that has significantly affected my swing. My ability to rotate the right arm externally is impaired and my normal swing, which has always been arm swing dependent, causes too much pain to get the left arm up enough. In trying this philosophy, my left arm can actually get high enough where I can swing, as the right arm isn't going too far around, but more up and down. My question is on the rotation of the forearms, does any occur in the downswing? I did purchase the ebook, but I cannot download it.

 

Yes - there is some forearm rotation in the downswing. How much depends on your preferred shot shape pattern. In general, I teach that what squares the clubface is about 80% body rotation and 20% forearm rotation.

 

I sent you an email about the download issue. Please let me know if that fix worked for you. You need to have E-Pub format e-book reading software installed on your device for the download link to open.

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I have been dealing with a right shoulder issue that has significantly affected my swing. My ability to rotate the right arm externally is impaired and my normal swing, which has always been arm swing dependent, causes too much pain to get the left arm up enough. In trying this philosophy, my left arm can actually get high enough where I can swing, as the right arm isn't going too far around, but more up and down. My question is on the rotation of the forearms, does any occur in the downswing? I did purchase the ebook, but I cannot download it.

 

Yes - there is some forearm rotation in the downswing. How much depends on your preferred shot shape pattern. In general, I teach that what squares the clubface is about 80% body rotation and 20% forearm rotation.

 

I sent you an email about the download issue. Please let me know if that fix worked for you. You need to have E-Pub format e-book reading software installed on your device for the download link to open.

Got it open, thanks Jim!
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  • 1 month later...
UPDATE: Here is a link to my new video on the Arm Swing Illusion, released on July 15, 2015. For those of you who find this illusion concept fascinating and helpful, whether you intend to continue on in your reading and study of this mega-thread, consider buying the video (available from our website as a convenient download) and watching it several times. It is designed to be as close as possible to the actual experience of a live golf school with me, and is a total viewing time of 2 hours and 42 minutes. It covers the arm swing illusion, as well as several related illusions, in depth. The video consists of an Introduction to the basic concept, drills for de-constructing the Illusion from your subconscious mind swing map that are done without a golf ball, and finally drills you can do with a ball during range practice. Any golfer who watches this video with a truly open mind will come away with a radical new understanding of what is actually happening in the modern tour pro golf swing. It is a mind-blowing experience that will challenge your previously un-questioned basic assumptions about what should be happening with the arm motion in a good golf swing. If you struggle with sucking the arms and club way inside the ideal plane in the backswing, over the top move during Transition, early wrist c0ck release and flipping, and arm dis-connection during Release, this video will show you the primary root cause of those Fatal Flaws. http://www.balancepo...hop/golf-videos And here is a small sample of that video:
We have completed the follow up video to that Arm Swing Illusion video: "Module Three - Advanced Arm Mechanics and Educated Hands" in two parts, a nearly three hour video Part A and a 40 minute video Part B. Both are available for download at the above link to our website. Module Three goes into a very detailed and technical explanation of the proper arm mechanics, and covers the Triangle concept, the Three Arm Pressures, more on the arm swing illusion, both swing map, slow motion mirror and ballstriking drills focusing on proper arm mechanics. Module Three also covers Elements Five through Nine of Educated Hands in the Balance Point System having to do with various forms of pressure, and awareness of hand path, clubhead weight, etc. Module Four: Mechanics of the Pivot video is now available from our site as well. http://www.balancepo...x.php/pro-shop. Once you have a clear understanding of how the arms should work from Modules Two and Three, the next step is to learn about the basic elements of the Pivot: lateral weight shift on the forward swing, rotation, side tilt, forward Spine Angle, Tilt Illusion, Power sources, Pivot Thrust, Transition Trigger and related elements. My e-book "Great Shot! Mastering the Craft of Ballstriking" also covers the Arm Swing Illusion material, but more importantly is a 205 page "encyclopedia" about the modern golf swing fundamentals, including sections on how to learn and practice effectively. http://www.balancepo...ro-shop/e-books Thanks, Kiwi, for explaining that. The arms pushaway on a 45 degree angle to the chest, while the chest is rotating, in an actual golf swing. But - when we first present the Illusion concept in our golf schools, we do an exaggeration drill where there is no Pivot, to show what the arms actually do in relation to the chest, and in that drill, a club is placed on the ground from the middle of one's stance on a 45 degree angle to one's right. We practice the arm pushaway action which results in the golf club in one's hands being over the shaft on the ground, and the club in one's hands parallel to the ground, with just a touch of wrist hinge and c0ck as well. Then - we do the chest/belly Pivot with arms across the chest to around 45 degrees of chest rotation. Then we combine the arm 45 angle pushaway with the chest rotation for a perfectly on-plane takeaway or moveaway motion. The blending of the two motions is the key to a real takeaway. Russc - you are taking connection too literally. You can have the left tricep touching the pecs while the upper left arm is moving on that angle to the right of mid-line a bit. We call it "connection in motion". And it happens for most of my students after the first third or so of the actual moveaway segment. Although you could certainly do it right from the start and still keep the upper left arm touching the pec as you start to do the pushaway motion. I recommend that option for some students who are way too inside with their arms during moveaway. You just have to synchronize the two at the right speed - otherwise you will get a seperation of the left arm from the pec.
I have a hard time with this concept. There can be no question that in the better players the left arm (for the right handed golfer) abducts in toward the chest as the reach the top of their backswing. Look at Bubba Watson or Ricky Fowler. At the top of their back swing their lead arm is laying across their chest. It is not at a 45 degree angle. Therefore their arms have in fact swung across their chest. I have a hard time with this concept. There can be no question that in the better players the left arm (for the right handed golfer) abducts in toward the chest as the reach the top of their backswing. Look at Bubba Watson or Ricky Fowler. At the top of their back swing their lead arm is laying across their chest. It is not at a 45 degree angle. Therefore their arms have in fact swung across their chest.
  • 0

Your understanding of the concept is flawed. The 45 degree angle is for the takeaway - NOT the Top of backswing. Of course the arm moves on an angle to the right of golfers mid-line, but that can happen in two very different ways: the correct way is while also pushing the hands out away from your chest and the incorrect way - which gets you stuck - is to pull the arms in toward you, almost always along with a lot of bend in the right elbow. As the second half of backswing proceeds, the 45 angle will increase due to a blend of postural elements and pivot momentum, to a maximum of 70 degrees with the driver. If you really want to understand the ASI in depth, and overcome the illusion and it's toxic effects on your swing, I suggest getting my Module Two video on the ASI.

 

Jim, I don't think his understanding of it is flawed, it's just a different way of interpreting it. I believe he was saying that if you have a back swing with no abduction it would be very short and awkward since you didn't mention anything about arm abduction in the post he quoted. My left arm would point 180 degrees away from the the target with no abduction, whereas with abduction it gets to maybe 250ish degrees (obviously dependent on a persons flexibility.) I can understand both of your point of views, and I think both of you are correct.

 

I have a question for you. I can reach the same point at the top of my backswing whether I lift my arms at a 45 degree and or not; just like you stated. The point of doing it your way is just to maintain the backswing of the club on the same swing plane as the downswing, correct? This is why instructors have you move the club straight back on the beginning of the backswing; it forces you to start moving the arms up?

 

 

Sorry, but his understanding could not be more flawed. I have never - ever - taught that there is zero abduction of the lead arm. Any one reading this thread will understand that. His entire premise is blatantly wrong.

 

Any golfer with an open mind will not have a problem understanding what I advocate as far as the asi concept. Lead arm moves to a 45 degree angle to the chest on takeaway, and further abducts on second half of backswing (except for wedges which will maintain that 45 angle or close to it) up to 75 degrees with a driver. Then the lead arm will adduct - move back closer to mid-line of torso - during Transition.

 

Yes - keeping shaft on plane requires the arm pushaway blended into the Pivot along with wrist c0ck and hinge, and prevents you from getting arms stuck behind the body. Not sure I understand your question about "forcing" arm lift. I do not teach using arm muscles to lift the arms - folding of right elbow makes the left arm go up. The pushaway also creates more width for a wider arc and more clubhead speed.

 

Arms move up and down in a V shape motion in front of the rotating chest - NOT an I shaped motion which is what would happen if there was no abduction/adduction.

 

If anyone really struggles with understanding this, there is an easy solution: buy and study my Module Two video on the ASI, it is over two hours in length and explores this subject in depth. I have never had a single person who bought the video and studied it tell me that they still did not "get it".

 

 

I've been working on this. It feels like a reroute. Does that sensation of reroute eventually go away? Thx

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Depends on how you define "re-route". If you overdo the arm pushaway, you will have to do a big in to out looping action with the arms on Transition. If you do the recommended total amount of arm pushaway during takeaway (4-8 ") and blend that motion properly with your Pivot, the shaft will track back on plane. Will not require a big re-route loop on Transition if done properly in that way.

 

Most folks when first learning this way overdo the arm pushaway. Average height adults I recommend 6" of total arm pushaway by end of takeaway, and about one-third of that or 2" is created by momentum from the Pivot. So really only 4" of total independent arm motion in pushaway using the arm muscles to create that 4" of motion. I see folks doing 18" all the time - nowhere near that 4".

 

And I see students doing the arm pushaway first, and then later adding the Pivot. Big, big mistake!

 

You have to blend the two simultaneously or even start first with the Pivot and a micro-second later add the arm pushaway.

 

I have said it many, many times here on this thread, this forum and in my videos - doing this kind of takeaway properly is NOT an "upright swing plane" or an "outside takeaway" in any fashion - not even close to those things.

 

The best players in the world - with few exceptions - are doing this takeaway right now. It creates an on plane motion with the club, NOT an outside the plane motion. If club goes outside even a tiny bit - you are doing it wrong!

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Depends on how you define "re-route". If you overdo the arm pushaway, you will have to do a big in to out looping action with the arms on Transition. If you do the recommended total amount of arm pushaway during takeaway (4-8 ") and blend that motion properly with your Pivot, the shaft will track back on plane. Will not require a big re-route loop on Transition if done properly in that way.

 

Most folks when first learning this way overdo the arm pushaway. Average height adults I recommend 6" of total arm pushaway by end of takeaway, and about one-third of that or 2" is created by momentum from the Pivot. So really only 4" of total independent arm motion in pushaway using the arm muscles to create that 4" of motion. I see folks doing 18" all the time - nowhere near that 4".

 

And I see students doing the arm pushaway first, and then later adding the Pivot. Big, big mistake!

 

You have to blend the two simultaneously or even start first with the Pivot and a micro-second later add the arm pushaway.

 

I have said it many, many times here on this thread, this forum and in my videos - doing this kind of takeaway properly is NOT an "upright swing plane" or an "outside takeaway" in any fashion - not even close to those things.

 

The best players in the world - with few exceptions - are doing this takeaway right now. It creates an on plane motion with the club, NOT an outside the plane motion. If club goes outside even a tiny bit - you are doing it wrong!

 

Got it; great stuff. Thank you.

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Depends on how you define "re-route". If you overdo the arm pushaway, you will have to do a big in to out looping action with the arms on Transition. If you do the recommended total amount of arm pushaway during takeaway (4-8 ") and blend that motion properly with your Pivot, the shaft will track back on plane. Will not require a big re-route loop on Transition if done properly in that way.

 

Most folks when first learning this way overdo the arm pushaway. Average height adults I recommend 6" of total arm pushaway by end of takeaway, and about one-third of that or 2" is created by momentum from the Pivot. So really only 4" of total independent arm motion in pushaway using the arm muscles to create that 4" of motion. I see folks doing 18" all the time - nowhere near that 4".

 

And I see students doing the arm pushaway first, and then later adding the Pivot. Big, big mistake!

 

You have to blend the two simultaneously or even start first with the Pivot and a micro-second later add the arm pushaway.

 

I have said it many, many times here on this thread, this forum and in my videos - doing this kind of takeaway properly is NOT an "upright swing plane" or an "outside takeaway" in any fashion - not even close to those things.

 

The best players in the world - with few exceptions - are doing this takeaway right now. It creates an on plane motion with the club, NOT an outside the plane motion. If club goes outside even a tiny bit - you are doing it wrong!

 

One more comment on this. I looking at Fred Couples move away, unless this is an illusion, it looks like his move is out, up, in. I think that is what I was doing but you explained it with the need to 'blend". Thanks

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Depends on how you define "re-route". If you overdo the arm pushaway, you will have to do a big in to out looping action with the arms on Transition. If you do the recommended total amount of arm pushaway during takeaway (4-8 ") and blend that motion properly with your Pivot, the shaft will track back on plane. Will not require a big re-route loop on Transition if done properly in that way.

 

Most folks when first learning this way overdo the arm pushaway. Average height adults I recommend 6" of total arm pushaway by end of takeaway, and about one-third of that or 2" is created by momentum from the Pivot. So really only 4" of total independent arm motion in pushaway using the arm muscles to create that 4" of motion. I see folks doing 18" all the time - nowhere near that 4".

 

And I see students doing the arm pushaway first, and then later adding the Pivot. Big, big mistake!

 

You have to blend the two simultaneously or even start first with the Pivot and a micro-second later add the arm pushaway.

 

I have said it many, many times here on this thread, this forum and in my videos - doing this kind of takeaway properly is NOT an "upright swing plane" or an "outside takeaway" in any fashion - not even close to those things.

 

The best players in the world - with few exceptions - are doing this takeaway right now. It creates an on plane motion with the club, NOT an outside the plane motion. If club goes outside even a tiny bit - you are doing it wrong!

 

One more comment on this. I looking at Fred Couples move away, unless this is an illusion, it looks like his move is out, up, in. I think that is what I was doing but you explained it with the need to 'blend". Thanks

 

Correct. Fred does the arm pushaway first, which requires a big in to out loop in his Transition. Trevino, Furyk, Jay Haas also have that same move.

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Jim,

 

Do most pros intentionally use the ASI system or is this just a better solution for an amateur, just curious!

 

Thanks! Tanner

 

It's not a system or a method. It is a description of what happens - to some degree - in majority of good swings. It is the starting point for seeing through a 2D view of the golf swing, which means it allows for a breakthrough in understanding what really is happening with the body motion.

 

"Intentionally"?

 

You would have to ask the tour pros. For some, certainly. TIger knows, Ricky F knows, anyone who works with Butch knows, Foley's guys know it, et al.

 

The basic understanding of the importance of not getting arms stuck behind the body - both on backswing and forward swing - is a generally accepted principle of modern golf instruction.

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I suppose the converse of that move is like Ray Floyd who seemed to whip the club head inside and then made a reverse loop to an almost laid off position at the top.

 

The move you teach eliminates these compensations. I think I feel much more on plane. Great work. Thank you

 

Correct. Raymond and a few others take it inside and then do the out to in loop on Transition to compensate. The point of the ASI is to have an on plane shaft motion throughout the swing (it will actually steepen a bit the last 1/3 of the backswing and require a slight shallowing move on Transition to counter that, steepening is due to human anatomy) so that you do not need any major compensations, just as you described.

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Jim,

 

Do most pros intentionally use the ASI system or is this just a better solution for an amateur, just curious!

 

Thanks! Tanner

 

It's not a system or a method. It is a description of what happens - to some degree - in majority of good swings. It is the starting point for seeing through a 2D view of the golf swing, which means it allows for a breakthrough in understanding what really is happening with the body motion.

 

"Intentionally"?

 

You would have to ask the tour pros. For some, certainly. TIger knows, Ricky F knows, anyone who works with Butch knows, Foley's guys know it, et al.

 

The basic understanding of the importance of not getting arms stuck behind the body - both on backswing and forward swing - is a generally accepted principle of modern golf instruction.

 

Thanks, Jim.

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Hey Jim,

 

After losing my swing for an insufferable time frame your insight and book have me making some confident and free swings again. Also understanding more about my misses. Arm swing illusion and the need to ingraine the subconscious mind in order to be singularly target focused once you address the ball were eye openers.

 

After watching today’s match play coverage I was wondering what you think of Alex Noren’s move? Initially when he started playing consistently well a few years ago it wasn’t visually pleasing to myself. However, I now can really see some elements you discuss in his move and really like it. As someone who misses left, it just appears he eliminates missing left but maintains great space and balance with a powerful strike.

 

Also, what module would you recommend for balance? I was a high school pitcher, at 40 can still put around 50 yards under an NCAA football, both require a solid right leg (right handed) and leverage to generate force. However, I struggle to generate that same force against that firmly based right leg in golf. I’ve been working on some concepts from your book but would like some reinforcement. Swing trigger and proper base pressures are helping but work to do. The pitching and football throwing actions feel much more naturally fluid.

 

Thx

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Hey Jim,

 

After losing my swing for an insufferable time frame your insight and book have me making some confident and free swings again. Also understanding more about my misses. Arm swing illusion and the need to ingraine the subconscious mind in order to be singularly target focused once you address the ball were eye openers.

 

After watching today's match play coverage I was wondering what you think of Alex Noren's move? Initially when he started playing consistently well a few years ago it wasn't visually pleasing to myself. However, I now can really see some elements you discuss in his move and really like it. As someone who misses left, it just appears he eliminates missing left but maintains great space and balance with a powerful strike.

 

Also, what module would you recommend for balance? I was a high school pitcher, at 40 can still put around 50 yards under an NCAA football, both require a solid right leg (right handed) and leverage to generate force. However, I struggle to generate that same force against that firmly based right leg in golf. I've been working on some concepts from your book but would like some reinforcement. Swing trigger and proper base pressures are helping but work to do. The pitching and football throwing actions feel much more naturally fluid.

 

Thx

 

Hi W - All my Balance fundamentals and drills and concepts are in Module Seven video. There is some really good stuff in that Module. One of my pet peeves about modern golf teaching is how little respect is given to the concept of swinging in "rock-solid balance" (Hogan). It is actually MORE important than Mechanics for mid to high handicaps, because if you start off balance or become off balance at any point in the golf swing, you are going to have to make a micro-second compensation move to restore your balance, and then that move is almost always going to hurt your mechanics. I see 20 handicaps that I work with, start to hit the ball like a ten handicap immediately once I get them set up in balance and swinging in balance.

 

I do love Noren's swing - really great! All the elements of the swing model I teach is exemplified in his motion. A simple swing with very few moving parts.

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I have always has tendency to bring the club back inside too quickly and one of things I've discovered to prevent this as I read Jim's information is that if I push down on the handle while blending the turn into the swing, this prevents any bad inside take away. I'd be interested in feedback.

 

"Pushing down on the handle" is just one way of describing how one c0cks their wrists. Clubshaft moves upwards in the vertical dimension during takeaway swing segment due to that motion. It is often described as one way to cure the death move of too inside the plane. But that inside move is mainly caused by improper use of the arms - NOT failure to c0ck the wrists properly in vast majority of golfers. The issue is the in/out dimension relative to the target line and to the shaft plane angle itself. Wrists play a role in the takeaway that I teach, in that I like to see near immediate start of the c0cking process at beginning of takeaway, and the c0cking 50% done by end of takeaway.

 

You are blending the in with the up by all three systems: upper arms pushing away, pivot of the body and wrist c0cking/hinging.

 

Folks who use their arms to create the "in" instead of their Pivot have the ASI problem.

 

Do not pull your arms in closer to your body - do the opposite. Push them away from your chest as your chest turns, 4-8" by end of takeaway.

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  • 1 month later...

I struggle with an inside takeaway, and the ASI gets me into a nicer position, especially at P2.

 

However, I've always believed this is due to me sucking my arms in subconsciously - because if I do a slow 1 piece takeaway in front of a mirror (with no pushaway) and allow my arms to go along up the inclined plane with my shoulder turn, I get in the same good position. AKA the classic 1 piece move.

 

Likewise, if you do the Nick Faldo drill and pre set the wrists you get in the perfect p2 position, then simply turn your torso and you're in a solid top position with the club in front of you. There is demonstrably no pushaway on that.

 

So I am left wondering if the ASI move is fix for a fault and simply working as a counter-move for players who have over-active arms and can't just allow them to be passive in the first few feet of the takeaway, or players with a shoulder turn that is too flat, or am I missing a key ingredient?

 

Would be keen to hear Jim's thoughts.

 

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I struggle with an inside takeaway, and the ASI gets me into a nicer position, especially at P2.

 

However, I've always believed this is due to me sucking my arms in subconsciously - because if I do a slow 1 piece takeaway in front of a mirror (with no pushaway) and allow my arms to go along up the inclined plane with my shoulder turn, I get in the same good position. AKA the classic 1 piece move.

 

Likewise, if you do the Nick Faldo drill and pre set the wrists you get in the perfect p2 position, then simply turn your torso and you're in a solid top position with the club in front of you. There is demonstrably no pushaway on that.

 

So I am left wondering if the ASI move is fix for a fault and simply working as a counter-move for players who have over-active arms and can't just allow them to be passive in the first few feet of the takeaway, or players with a shoulder turn that is too flat, or am I missing a key ingredient?

 

Would be keen to hear Jim's thoughts.

 

 

This is one of those really good questions that will never be answered in a golf forum using the written word. It requires in person demonstration to really get it.

 

What you are asking is one of the first "tests" that I experimented with back in 1996 when I discovered the asi. The answer is no - if you do not do any amount of arm pushaway, your shaft angle will not be on plane in the takeaway, (assuming you do a proper Pivot action). You will still be inside (although not terrible) and you will be too narrow at the Top - lacking in width. Width is a passive source of ch speed in the golf swing. So the slight pushaway allows you to achieve that width, and allows the shaft to track back on plane. It also makes it easier to employ a good structured Triangle.

 

Most folks when first playing around with the asi stuff way overdo the arm pushaway. 6" ot total hand path travel is ideal for most in the takeaway, and really only about 4" of that is from independent arm motion, so a very slight motion during takeaway. The other 2" is from Pivot momentum.

 

The pushaway also contributes to a good Top position, especially in that it prevents using the trail arm bicep to bend the trail arm, which can prevent arm over-run and a collapsed Triangle.

 

Being "neutral" ie no pushaway and also no arms pulling in, might work okay in theory - but having tested it early on, I found that almost no one who tried it could in fact pull it off. The impulse to pull in with the arms was way too strong for everyone.

 

But Ironcat - if you can do it, and are hitting the ball really great with that neutral arms action, then I encourage you to keep on doing it.

 

As I said before, if you really want to go in depth with me about the ASI,. then take a remote lesson with me, like a lot of folks have done. In about 90 minutes time, I will be able to answer most if not all of your asi questions. Or buy the video, it's 2.5 hours of intensive demonstration and explanation of all you need to know about the ASI.

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I struggle with an inside takeaway, and the ASI gets me into a nicer position, especially at P2.

 

However, I've always believed this is due to me sucking my arms in subconsciously - because if I do a slow 1 piece takeaway in front of a mirror (with no pushaway) and allow my arms to go along up the inclined plane with my shoulder turn, I get in the same good position. AKA the classic 1 piece move.

 

Likewise, if you do the Nick Faldo drill and pre set the wrists you get in the perfect p2 position, then simply turn your torso and you're in a solid top position with the club in front of you. There is demonstrably no pushaway on that.

 

So I am left wondering if the ASI move is fix for a fault and simply working as a counter-move for players who have over-active arms and can't just allow them to be passive in the first few feet of the takeaway, or players with a shoulder turn that is too flat, or am I missing a key ingredient?

 

Would be keen to hear Jim's thoughts.

 

 

This is one of those really good questions that will never be answered in a golf forum using the written word. It requires in person demonstration to really get it.

 

What you are asking is one of the first "tests" that I experimented with back in 1996 when I discovered the asi. The answer is no - if you do not do any amount of arm pushaway, your shaft angle will not be on plane in the takeaway, (assuming you do a proper Pivot action). You will still be inside (although not terrible) and you will be too narrow at the Top - lacking in width. Width is a passive source of ch speed in the golf swing. So the slight pushaway allows you to achieve that width, and allows the shaft to track back on plane. It also makes it easier to employ a good structured Triangle.

 

Most folks when first playing around with the asi stuff way overdo the arm pushaway. 6" ot total hand path travel is ideal for most in the takeaway, and really only about 4" of that is from independent arm motion, so a very slight motion during takeaway. The other 2" is from Pivot momentum.

 

The pushaway also contributes to a good Top position, especially in that it prevents using the trail arm bicep to bend the trail arm, which can prevent arm over-run and a collapsed Triangle.

 

Being "neutral" ie no pushaway and also no arms pulling in, might work okay in theory - but having tested it early on, I found that almost no one who tried it could in fact pull it off. The impulse to pull in with the arms was way too strong for everyone.

 

But Ironcat - if you can do it, and are hitting the ball really great with that neutral arms action, then I encourage you to keep on doing it.

 

As I said before, if you really want to go in depth with me about the ASI,. then take a remote lesson with me, like a lot of folks have done. In about 90 minutes time, I will be able to answer most if not all of your asi questions. Or buy the video, it's 2.5 hours of intensive demonstration and explanation of all you need to know about the ASI.

 

Using the push away to add width and some push away - not a lot, seem helpful to get the ASI on the backswing. What are some simple thoughts on the through swing ? Thanks, Tanner

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I struggle with an inside takeaway, and the ASI gets me into a nicer position, especially at P2.

 

However, I've always believed this is due to me sucking my arms in subconsciously - because if I do a slow 1 piece takeaway in front of a mirror (with no pushaway) and allow my arms to go along up the inclined plane with my shoulder turn, I get in the same good position. AKA the classic 1 piece move.

 

Likewise, if you do the Nick Faldo drill and pre set the wrists you get in the perfect p2 position, then simply turn your torso and you're in a solid top position with the club in front of you. There is demonstrably no pushaway on that.

 

So I am left wondering if the ASI move is fix for a fault and simply working as a counter-move for players who have over-active arms and can't just allow them to be passive in the first few feet of the takeaway, or players with a shoulder turn that is too flat, or am I missing a key ingredient?

 

Would be keen to hear Jim's thoughts.

 

 

This is one of those really good questions that will never be answered in a golf forum using the written word. It requires in person demonstration to really get it.

 

What you are asking is one of the first "tests" that I experimented with back in 1996 when I discovered the asi. The answer is no - if you do not do any amount of arm pushaway, your shaft angle will not be on plane in the takeaway, (assuming you do a proper Pivot action). You will still be inside (although not terrible) and you will be too narrow at the Top - lacking in width. Width is a passive source of ch speed in the golf swing. So the slight pushaway allows you to achieve that width, and allows the shaft to track back on plane. It also makes it easier to employ a good structured Triangle.

 

Most folks when first playing around with the asi stuff way overdo the arm pushaway. 6" ot total hand path travel is ideal for most in the takeaway, and really only about 4" of that is from independent arm motion, so a very slight motion during takeaway. The other 2" is from Pivot momentum.

 

The pushaway also contributes to a good Top position, especially in that it prevents using the trail arm bicep to bend the trail arm, which can prevent arm over-run and a collapsed Triangle.

 

Being "neutral" ie no pushaway and also no arms pulling in, might work okay in theory - but having tested it early on, I found that almost no one who tried it could in fact pull it off. The impulse to pull in with the arms was way too strong for everyone.

 

But Ironcat - if you can do it, and are hitting the ball really great with that neutral arms action, then I encourage you to keep on doing it.

 

As I said before, if you really want to go in depth with me about the ASI,. then take a remote lesson with me, like a lot of folks have done. In about 90 minutes time, I will be able to answer most if not all of your asi questions. Or buy the video, it's 2.5 hours of intensive demonstration and explanation of all you need to know about the ASI.

 

Using the push away to add width and some push away - not a lot, seem helpful to get the ASI on the backswing. What are some simple thoughts on the through swing ? Thanks, Tanner

 

Forward swing main thing is understanding how the Pivot moves the Triangle, both arms as "one firm unit" (Hogan's words). Instead of the arms moving themselves.

 

Dependent arm motion means muscles of the Pivot create a force that moves the arms with very little independent arm motion in the shoulder sockets. And that slight independent arm motion in the sockets happens from Pivot momentum -NOT from the upper arm muscles.

 

It allows perfect synch up of arm motion and Pivot motion.

 

"Passive arms" does NOT mean "slow moving arms" which is a common mis-understanding of the term on this forum.

 

It ONLY means preventing too much upper arm in shoulder sockets motion due to arm muscles activating that motion.

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I struggle with an inside takeaway, and the ASI gets me into a nicer position, especially at P2.

 

However, I've always believed this is due to me sucking my arms in subconsciously - because if I do a slow 1 piece takeaway in front of a mirror (with no pushaway) and allow my arms to go along up the inclined plane with my shoulder turn, I get in the same good position. AKA the classic 1 piece move.

 

Likewise, if you do the Nick Faldo drill and pre set the wrists you get in the perfect p2 position, then simply turn your torso and you're in a solid top position with the club in front of you. There is demonstrably no pushaway on that.

 

So I am left wondering if the ASI move is fix for a fault and simply working as a counter-move for players who have over-active arms and can't just allow them to be passive in the first few feet of the takeaway, or players with a shoulder turn that is too flat, or am I missing a key ingredient?

 

Would be keen to hear Jim's thoughts.

 

 

This is one of those really good questions that will never be answered in a golf forum using the written word. It requires in person demonstration to really get it.

 

What you are asking is one of the first "tests" that I experimented with back in 1996 when I discovered the asi. The answer is no - if you do not do any amount of arm pushaway, your shaft angle will not be on plane in the takeaway, (assuming you do a proper Pivot action). You will still be inside (although not terrible) and you will be too narrow at the Top - lacking in width. Width is a passive source of ch speed in the golf swing. So the slight pushaway allows you to achieve that width, and allows the shaft to track back on plane. It also makes it easier to employ a good structured Triangle.

 

Most folks when first playing around with the asi stuff way overdo the arm pushaway. 6" ot total hand path travel is ideal for most in the takeaway, and really only about 4" of that is from independent arm motion, so a very slight motion during takeaway. The other 2" is from Pivot momentum.

 

The pushaway also contributes to a good Top position, especially in that it prevents using the trail arm bicep to bend the trail arm, which can prevent arm over-run and a collapsed Triangle.

 

Being "neutral" ie no pushaway and also no arms pulling in, might work okay in theory - but having tested it early on, I found that almost no one who tried it could in fact pull it off. The impulse to pull in with the arms was way too strong for everyone.

 

But Ironcat - if you can do it, and are hitting the ball really great with that neutral arms action, then I encourage you to keep on doing it.

 

As I said before, if you really want to go in depth with me about the ASI,. then take a remote lesson with me, like a lot of folks have done. In about 90 minutes time, I will be able to answer most if not all of your asi questions. Or buy the video, it's 2.5 hours of intensive demonstration and explanation of all you need to know about the ASI.

 

Using the push away to add width and some push away - not a lot, seem helpful to get the ASI on the backswing. What are some simple thoughts on the through swing ? Thanks, Tanner

 

Forward swing main thing is understanding how the Pivot moves the Triangle, both arms as "one firm unit" (Hogan's words). Instead of the arms moving themselves.

 

Dependent arm motion means muscles of the Pivot create a force that moves the arms with very little independent arm motion in the shoulder sockets. And that slight independent arm motion in the sockets happens from Pivot momentum -NOT from the upper arm muscles.

 

It allows perfect synch up of arm motion and Pivot motion.

 

"Passive arms" does NOT mean "slow moving arms" which is a common mis-understanding of the term on this forum.

 

It ONLY means preventing too much upper arm in shoulder sockets motion due to arm muscles activating that motion.

 

Thanks, Jim. Now it is coming together. But, I guess it takes some time for those who have been motoring their swing with their arms for many years to adapt the ASI. It's hard to isolate the chest/core pivot to help the backswing, when the first instinct is to pick the club up with the hands/arms. Also, it's difficult to get the arms to be passive in the through swing. I suspect it take an understanding of the concept, practice and then trust to make it work. Thx, Tanner

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I struggle with an inside takeaway, and the ASI gets me into a nicer position, especially at P2.

 

However, I've always believed this is due to me sucking my arms in subconsciously - because if I do a slow 1 piece takeaway in front of a mirror (with no pushaway) and allow my arms to go along up the inclined plane with my shoulder turn, I get in the same good position. AKA the classic 1 piece move.

 

Likewise, if you do the Nick Faldo drill and pre set the wrists you get in the perfect p2 position, then simply turn your torso and you're in a solid top position with the club in front of you. There is demonstrably no pushaway on that.

 

So I am left wondering if the ASI move is fix for a fault and simply working as a counter-move for players who have over-active arms and can't just allow them to be passive in the first few feet of the takeaway, or players with a shoulder turn that is too flat, or am I missing a key ingredient?

 

Would be keen to hear Jim's thoughts.

 

 

This is one of those really good questions that will never be answered in a golf forum using the written word. It requires in person demonstration to really get it.

 

What you are asking is one of the first "tests" that I experimented with back in 1996 when I discovered the asi. The answer is no - if you do not do any amount of arm pushaway, your shaft angle will not be on plane in the takeaway, (assuming you do a proper Pivot action). You will still be inside (although not terrible) and you will be too narrow at the Top - lacking in width. Width is a passive source of ch speed in the golf swing. So the slight pushaway allows you to achieve that width, and allows the shaft to track back on plane. It also makes it easier to employ a good structured Triangle.

 

Most folks when first playing around with the asi stuff way overdo the arm pushaway. 6" ot total hand path travel is ideal for most in the takeaway, and really only about 4" of that is from independent arm motion, so a very slight motion during takeaway. The other 2" is from Pivot momentum.

 

The pushaway also contributes to a good Top position, especially in that it prevents using the trail arm bicep to bend the trail arm, which can prevent arm over-run and a collapsed Triangle.

 

Being "neutral" ie no pushaway and also no arms pulling in, might work okay in theory - but having tested it early on, I found that almost no one who tried it could in fact pull it off. The impulse to pull in with the arms was way too strong for everyone.

 

But Ironcat - if you can do it, and are hitting the ball really great with that neutral arms action, then I encourage you to keep on doing it.

 

As I said before, if you really want to go in depth with me about the ASI,. then take a remote lesson with me, like a lot of folks have done. In about 90 minutes time, I will be able to answer most if not all of your asi questions. Or buy the video, it's 2.5 hours of intensive demonstration and explanation of all you need to know about the ASI.

 

Using the push away to add width and some push away - not a lot, seem helpful to get the ASI on the backswing. What are some simple thoughts on the through swing ? Thanks, Tanner

 

Forward swing main thing is understanding how the Pivot moves the Triangle, both arms as "one firm unit" (Hogan's words). Instead of the arms moving themselves.

 

Dependent arm motion means muscles of the Pivot create a force that moves the arms with very little independent arm motion in the shoulder sockets. And that slight independent arm motion in the sockets happens from Pivot momentum -NOT from the upper arm muscles.

 

It allows perfect synch up of arm motion and Pivot motion.

 

"Passive arms" does NOT mean "slow moving arms" which is a common mis-understanding of the term on this forum.

 

It ONLY means preventing too much upper arm in shoulder sockets motion due to arm muscles activating that motion.

 

Thanks, Jim. Now it is coming together. But, I guess it takes some time for those who have been motoring their swing with their arms for many years to adapt the ASI. It's hard to isolate the chest/core pivot to help the backswing, when the first instinct is to pick the club up with the hands/arms. Also, it's difficult to get the arms to be passive in the through swing. I suspect it take an understanding of the concept, practice and then trust to make it work. Thx, Tanner

 

Yes - good insight there. It does take some time to tame the arm impulse. The tiny golf ball, the 35"-46" long "sticks" that we use to hit that tiny ball, and the tiny sweetspot on the clubface, about the size of a dime or even smaller. All those things contribute to a "natural" impulse to use your arms to both steer the clubhead into the ball and to create power.

 

Part of this struggle is that when I work with a new student and he or she is finally getting their arms more passive and their Pivot more active, it feels to their mind like this new swing is totally lacking in power. Of course the exact opposite is the truth. A pivot dominant swing, is far more powerful than the typical arm dominant high handicap swing.

 

And the second part is this - when you start to achieve a better pivot, and you use the pivot to deliver the clubhead to the ball (obviously wrists and forearms also play a role, but it is mainly the pivot) it feels impossible in the mind of the golfer that a fast turning/tilting of their torso can get the sweetspot of the clubface onto the back of the ball solidly, and with all the impact requirements like an on plane shaft, proper low point and angle of attack, square clubface and neutral path. Even intellectually it seems crazy that a proper pivot motion is the main thing that delivers the clubhead to impact.

 

I have seen many of my students doing 1/4 or 1/2 speed drills - where they do have a little bit of conscious control over their body motion - totally stop their pivot just before impact, and fling their arms across mid-line of their chest, in an attempt to steer the clubhead into the ball using their arm muscles to move their arms.

 

So overcoming those two "natural" but flat our wrong beliefs is a big part of the learning Process.

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