Miura 1957 Small Blade/Baby Blade enthusiasts thread! (Lots of enabling and physics lessons inside)

[PopIt&DropIt]

Great posts, funny i played TK wedges with my baby blades all last season and will be this season as well, love those things

 

That's pretty funny! I've never seen them get any serious love around here or elsewhere on the internet so I figured everyone would think I was crazy for playing them. But like you I think they are really solid. As is probably obvious I think most of the new Hogan line is really good!

[zigfread]

Lol same here! The grind just really works for me, and I think they are damn solid. Even though I try to hide them under my towel in my bag so I don’t get what the heck are those infomercial wedges?!

[PopIt&DropIt]

Agreed. I know a lot or people use far more intricate grinds but that grind allows me to hit a very wide array of shots as long as I make a good swing. Can't ask for more than that. Not a great specialty grind but very versatile.

 

I'm going to give my wedges (and maybe ft worth irons) and mini make over. If they come out nice I'll post them here. I think they are really pretty overall Just not crazy about all the red and black.

[Kingcat990]

Head on down to your automotive parts store and purchase a product called "Aircraft Remover". I apply with a tooth pick on the painted areas, 5 min later the paint has floated on top of the remover and I just wash it down with water. Product is like hair gel. Wear gloves. Removes any paint fill without harming your plating or steel coupon.

[PopIt&DropIt]

Head on down to your automotive parts store and purchase a product called "Aircraft Remover". I apply with a tooth pick on the painted areas, 5 min later the paint has floated on top of the remover and I just wash it down with water. Product is like hair gel. Wear gloves. Removes any paint fill without harming your plating or steel coupon.

 

Thank you sir I will do just that. I've used acetone before and while it works it doesn't work great. Sounds like this is much more efficient.

[zigfread]

I happen to have a set of the ft worth irons as well.... challenge accepted ?

[PopIt&DropIt]

Interesting! Have you ever put the Hogan's in play for any period of time after playing the BBs? If so was there a shock or did you fall back into using the Hogan's no problem?

[Kevinnz]

Difference btn 001 and BB is just the base grind (i know they are quite different appearance wise). 001 is virtually a Y grind with slight optimisation around the head. Y grind makes the interation with ground so much easier/more forgive that the miss hit is never too bad.

 

I’d suggest you to get a set of good 2nd hand 001.

[bladehunter]

been there and thought that OP.... Ive owned the BB twice,,, loved them... but kept gravitating back to my tour issue proto 681 set... well ive worn the faces out on the 5 iron down ...and went with a set that i have had in a box for a couple years. a circa 1998 ish titleist custom grind set.... very similar to the BB in size... very small blade... large muscle behind the ball... and as easy to hit as any ive ever hit... well.. in the middle of all that i had ap2, vega vdc-01, callaway legacy black etc.... what i found with each was that i missed the pinpoint accuracy with the smaller blade in the short irons more than i enjoyed the easier to hit 3 iron.... started carrying a 5 wood instead of a 3 iron that went 240 and all clicked into place.

 

I play competitively too and think as you do ..... what am i giving up ? i truly think the answer is nothing overall,,, and for me i gain confidence with every flushed iron with my small blades . another side product for me is a better awareness of tempo , and the automatic thought of hitting more club with a controlled traj vs the bigger club where the initial thought is " hit the least club you can harder".... hope that makes sense... my vote goes to commit to the BB and by a backup set now ..lol

[PopIt&DropIt]

 

Difference btn 001 and BB is just the base grind (i know they are quite different appearance wise). 001 is virtually a Y grind with slight optimisation around the head. Y grind makes the interation with ground so much easier/more forgive that the miss hit is never too bad.

 

I’d suggest you to get a set of good 2nd hand 001.

 

Thanks for the insight. I'm a sweeper and have had zero issues with turf interaction with the BBs. I gave the mb-001s a solid look I just preferred everything about the way the BBs played other than the small peace of mind gained from having a larger club in the bag. But in all honesty I have had no issues over the ball with the BBs. The issue is when I'm at home thinking about it, lol.

[PopIt&DropIt]

been there and thought that OP.... Ive owned the BB twice,,, loved them... but kept gravitating back to my tour issue proto 681 set... well ive worn the faces out on the 5 iron down ...and went with a set that i have had in a box for a couple years. a circa 1998 ish titleist custom grind set.... very similar to the BB in size... very small blade... large muscle behind the ball... and as easy to hit as any ive ever hit... well.. in the middle of all that i had ap2, vega vdc-01, callaway legacy black etc.... what i found with each was that i missed the pinpoint accuracy with the smaller blade in the short irons more than i enjoyed the easier to hit 3 iron.... started carrying a 5 wood instead of a 3 iron that went 240 and all clicked into place.

 

I play competitively too and think as you do ..... what am i giving up ? i truly think the answer is nothing overall,,, and for me i gain confidence with every flushed iron with my small blades . another side product for me is a better awareness of tempo , and the automatic thought of hitting more club with a controlled traj vs the bigger club where the initial thought is " hit the least club you can harder".... hope that makes sense... my vote goes to commit to the BB and by a backup set now ..lol

 

Great post man thank you. My experience since posting the OP has matched everything you said here. They look small but when I'm over the ball it's the last thing I'm thinking about. They dont play small at all. And while I find a big miss to be a bit worse, the small misses hold distance and line better than any larger iron I've ever played. And funny enough I've hit some of the best long iron shots of my career with these things. I too included a 5 wood for the first time in life (f8+ at the length of the baffler they sold a couple years ago, launches high and flat, penetrates into the wind, amazing club) and its been a great addition. I also agree a major added benefit is keeping my rhythm and tempo in check, which are cornerstones of my swing to begin with. I appreciate the insight and your irons sound like beauties!

 

ETA: I already have a back up set ;)

[DeNinny]

The baby blade is the best design for all players and all golf clubs. I have two sets of BBs and a set of Retro TBs (which are the same design, minus conforming grooves, as the standard TBs) and the BB sets are superior in all ways.

 

I could get into a lot more detail than this but the smaller head is what makes the BBs better. Because of that design difference, they have a better chance of making clean ball contact and there is less torque put on the hands from the force of impact.

 

BBs...FTW!!!

[PopIt&DropIt]

The baby blade is the best design for all players and all golf clubs. I have two sets of BBs and a set of Retro TBs (which are the same design, minus conforming grooves, as the standard TBs) and the BB sets are superior in all ways.

 

I could get into a lot more detail than this but the smaller head is what makes the BBs better. Because of that design difference, they have a better chance of making clean ball contact and there is less torque put on the hands from the force of impact.

 

BBs...FTW!!!

 

I for one would support you going into a lot more detail if you decided you wanted to. I'll read it and appreciate it :) With that said you are preaching to the choir. I never realized how many negative situations thicker soles can create until playing these. As a sweeper these are extremely forgiving in that context.

[EaglesGolf99]

Man! I really need to get a backup set! Lol. Sad thing is I'm presently only gaming the 9 and Wedge. The 5-8 have been set in the spare staff bag. The 5 and 6 are where they are permanently. The 7 and 8 get rotated in usually during the summer.

 

My CB-57 7 and 8 are just too good to pass up. I tried and tried and tried to fail so I had reason to game the Baby Blade 7 and 8, but no dice.

 

Gamers (bottom half of bag):

 

7-8 CB-57

9-P Baby Blade

52° Hand Grind

58° Hand Grind

KM-350

[DeNinny]

The baby blade is the best design for all players and all golf clubs. I have two sets of BBs and a set of Retro TBs (which are the same design, minus conforming grooves, as the standard TBs) and the BB sets are superior in all ways.

 

I could get into a lot more detail than this but the smaller head is what makes the BBs better. Because of that design difference, they have a better chance of making clean ball contact and there is less torque put on the hands from the force of impact.

 

BBs...FTW!!!

 

I for one would support you going into a lot more detail if you decided you wanted to. I'll read it and appreciate it :) With that said you are preaching to the choir. I never realized how many negative situations thicker soles can create until playing these. As a sweeper these are extremely forgiving in that context.

 

Details? LOL you say you want some details? Oooookaaaay...

 

Let's tackle the bigger sole issue first. And again, as I do this, it is important to note that we must assume or set all other variables equal as we analyze just the one variable which in this case is the sole surface area of the club. I like to state this up front because it is a very important assumption when evaluating multivariable math systems.

 

So anyway, the issue with a club with a bigger surface area sole (regardless of whether or not it is from length or width) as compared to one with a smaller surface area is that it literally will increase the chances of some part of that sole contacting the ground before the face of the club contacts the ball. This would constitute a fat miss hit. The big ball was hit before the little ball.

 

I hope this is obvious but LOL since you want detail let's look at a specific example. Let's say we have a longer clubhead and a shorter clubhead (again with all other things being equal). The longer club naturally has the bigger surface area sole. Now with a perfect swing, the issue with the sole is not an issue. The sole of each club stays above the ground and does not contact it before the face hits the ball.

 

Now let's add a specific miss hit to this. Now let's say the clubhead is coming into the ball with the heel at the same height with both clubs but the lie angle of the clubhead is tilting such that the toe is angled more downward than the heel. Now clearly the toe is going to contact the ground first in this example, and, furthermore and unequivocally, the longer clubhead toe is going to hang lower relative to the heel than the shorter clubhead toe by virtue of the fact that it is longer. Therefore the longer clubhead toe is the more unforgiving clubhead based on sole surface area.

 

This is just a simple specific example of the issue with a longer clubhead than a shorter one but it also works the same way with clubhead sole widths. The thicker clubhead sole width will also have a higher chance of rubbing the ground before the clubface contacts the ball as compared to a thinner clubhead sole (all other things equal). Also bounce has the same issue. Higher bounce clubs have a higher surface area sole and so they too have the same issue of increased chance for contacting the ground before the clubface contacts the ball. (When the leading edge is at the same height, the higher bounce clubhead hangs lower at the literal bottom.)

 

To put it another way more simply: with a bigger sole surface area there is literal mass to hit the ground with whereas there is the absence of that same mass with the smaller sole surface area.

 

And beyond just ground contact, a smaller surface area sole will also cut through all media (grass, dirt, sand, water, etc) better. The sole will rub against any media that has to pass under it, and so when there is more surface area there will be a greater force of friction on that surface area which will slow the clubhead down more. So therefore if you want the least friction as a clubhead passes over any media, then the you need the smallest sole surface area club.

 

So with respect to sole surface area, the baby blade design is virtually the best out there. (Maybe the Wilson FG-59 blade comes close to it.)

 

Now let's look at the muscle thickness or more specifically the part of the clubhead that will literally come into contact with the ball. This part of a clubhead design is important for creating consistent spin. And the reason is because temporary deformation of any material (including the carbon steel clubhead) has a mathematical relation (or rather relations) that make the material thickness directly proportional to the magnitude of deformation under a given force. What this means in layman's terms is that the thicker the material, the less it deform under a force. And so when you consider the force of the ball pushing into the face of the clubhead at impact, it will be unequivocally true that the thicker face wall will deform the least amount. And so a ball that compresses (which ultimately creates the spin on the ball) against a thick walled face will more consistently compress and thus spin.

 

By contrast, when the face wall gets thinner and is supported by thick perimeter walls, then that clubface will flex inward more when the round ball compresses against it. Because the face flexes inwards more, then the ball compresses less, which in turn serves to damp the spin on the ball. But beyond this, the real issue with this type of face and clubhead design is that it will make the spin inconsistent in addition to damping it. By analogy, the face will behave much like a trampoline where the flex is the greatest at the middle, but then, as you approach the edges, that side of the ball will not flex as much as the other side that is closer to the middle. When you jump up and down on a trampoline, you will bounce straight up and down if you do it at the very middle. But if you start jumping up and down closer to the edge, you will notice the trampoline will tend to bounce you back towards the middle. And so for a trampoline like clubface, this makes for a varying face angle depending on how close to the edges of that face that you hit it. Net result: more inconsistent spin than the thicker face walled club (which again does not flex as much, so it is more consistent).

 

Now if you really want to get into more details on this, you have to understand the Young's (or modulus of elasticity), bulk, and shear moduli for all materials and the math behind them. If you study the math, you will always see that there is a length or thickness dimension in the formulas relating the force and amount of deformation (as compared to that base length or thickness). I learned about all this from two books from college: 1) Introduction to Materials Science Engineering by Shackleford and 2) Physics for Scientists and Engineers by Giancoli. These wiki links will suffice, though:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young%27s_modulus

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulk_modulus

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shear_modulus

 

The beauty of the muscleback/blade design is that thick muscle. As long as you don't hit the hosel or out on the non grooved section of the toe, you can hit a muscle back club anywhere along it and it will be fine or at the very least better than the exact same miss hit with an inconsistent and thin face walled clubface. The muscle is a lot like the thick part of a baseball bat. As long as you use that part to contact the ball, it will impart consistent spin and much of the clubhead's kinetic energy into the ball. The notion that a muscle back or blade clubhead design having the "sweetspot" of a dime is hogwash. There is no law in all of physics that supports this notion. The reality of design is that the whole muscle itself is the "sweetspot"!

 

So once again advantage goes to the baby blade design. And just to add to it as compared to other blades, the short clubhead length is an advantage because it puts less torque on your hands as you swing the club itself and during impact itself. The short clubhead literally makes the clubhead MOI as it rotates around the shaft as low as possible as compared to a higher MOI clubhead due to its length. Ultimately what all this means is that it is easier to control the face position of a shorter clubhead as compared to a longer one. And it is easier both during the downswing and during impact itself. Lower MOI clubhead as it rotates around the shaft = less torque on your hands.

 

I'm probably missing some further details and will post more if I think of them. But I hope this is enough to convince you that you have science completely on your side by using your baby blades. There is nothing in the physics of them that make them harder to play than any other club design out

there. And moreover there is a lot of physics that support that they are the easiest!

 

In short...

 

...BBs...FTW!!!

[PopIt&DropIt]

^^^ Man that was great, thank you DeNinny! I definitely learned a few things that my experience has showed me to be true but I had no idea why or if it was just my confirmation bias. I just always felt misses were way tighter with blades in general and my BBs have taken that to a new level. They hold their line and distance better than any other club I've hit if you keep it on the grooves and you explained exactly why. I've noticed the other areas you mentioned as well but that was the biggest one for me.

 

I'm a believer sir! BB FTW!! Thank you again that was a really good read! I'm afraid to ask what you do for a living, lol :)

 

Definitely feel free to share any further info you want in here if and when that comes to you. I'm sure that level of sophistication isn't welcomed on most forums but this is a safe space and it will be read and appreciated!

[DeNinny]

^^^ Man that was great, thank you DeNinny! I definitely learned a few things that my experience has showed me to be true but I had no idea why or if it was just my confirmation bias. I just always felt misses were way tighter with blades in general and my BBs have taken that to a new level. They hold their line and distance better than any other club I've hit if you keep it on the grooves and you explained exactly why. I've noticed the other areas you mentioned as well but that was the biggest one for me.

 

I'm a believer sir! BB FTW!! Thank you again that was a really good read! I'm afraid to ask what you do for a living, lol :)

 

Definitely feel free to share any further info you want in here if and when that comes to you. I'm sure that level of sophistication isn't welcomed on most forums but this is a safe space and it will be read and appreciated!

 

PopIt&DropIt thank you for the kind words and it is my pleasure to exchange knowledge with a fellow BB player! I have had pretty much your exact same experience playing blades after CBs and then going to BBs (<- Best. Clubs. Ever.)

 

And yeah when my experience contradicted the "science" of "forgiveness", I realized that forgiveness is a carney sham(e) and it is virtually all based on false premises. There's always a false assumption in a "forgiving" clubhead "feature". It's a carney sham(e) on the sport and business of it. All done for profit. Sad!

 

FWIW I'm a chemical engineer and I got BS in it at UC Berkeley. And using it towards understanding golf has been my biggest asset in improving at this game. Explaining it all helps me better understand it more and more too. LMAO it led me to "needing" a set of BBs. Then I bought a second set and also a backup-backup set of Miura TBs. And for that second set, my black boron baby blades, I put every bit of my technical knowledge into building it, and not coincidentally I hit that set the longest and most accurately out of any set I've ever played. I also have my lowest rounds with it.

[PopIt&DropIt]

It is truly a sham(e) like so many other industries out there. Profit over results because results are usually bred by the simpler methods that can't be sold for as high of a margin or as often. I could go on for hours how this is plaguing the golf instruction and fitness industries, maybe more like days lol.

 

Thank you again and I look forward to reading future posts!! You are a great asset to this forum!!

[DeNinny]

It is truly a sham(e) like so many other industries out there. Profit over results because results are usually bred by the simpler methods that can't be sold for as high of a margin or as often. I could go on for hours how this is plaguing the golf instruction and fitness industries, maybe more like days lol.

 

Thank you again and I look forward to reading future posts!! You are a great asset to this forum!!

 

LOL and I could go on for pages and rant about the duplicitous "science" of "forgiveness". And also yes I have my technical issues with carney golf instruction too. There's lots of overthinking things in swing instruction as much as there is in faux "forgiving" club design features. We truly play a carney game on many levels. I love the sport but despise the business of it.

 

But to put a positive light on it all, amidst the masses of meaningless iron designs, consider yourself now lucky and having a technical edge by owning BBs. You truly own unicorn clubs. And with the proper science now in your head, you can now go into rounds knowing that you have science, no matter how incrementally small it may be, on your side by gaming them. They certainly won't ever be a disadvantage, at the very least. And as the carney "forgiving" club industry passes you by you can just watch it pass and keep gaming the babies, with confidence!

 

I can tell you from a personal standpoint now having played my sets for a couple of years that they have enhanced my connection and love for the game even more. It's just fun to go out and hit them. From feel to playability, they are simply the best, and they are almost synonymous with golf itself to me. I can't and don't want to separate the two. Although I play some rounds with my mp-67s and Retro TBs, the pleasure of playing the game and joy of hitting good iron shots (and bad) is just not quite as good as it is with either of my BB sets. I've even named them my 'Porn Stars' (the black borons) and 'Cal Hotties' (the satins). Such is my level of enthusiasm for them. Here's some pics:

 

 

 

 

Seriously when I look at either of these sets I just get a big smile on my face as I pull one from the bag.

 

Also one other note about the BB small head is that the shorter length, assuming muscle thickness is the same, will provide the most structurally stable surface for the ball to compress against. The clubhead length to muscle thickness ratio will be a measure of how resistant the clubface is from flexing and deforming from impact with the ball, and the smaller the ratio, the stronger the clubface. This will help with ball spin consistency because any hit location will be a solid surface for consistent ball compression as mentioned earlier. So once again, the BB is just slightly superior in this regard because it is shorter (and assuming it is just as thick).

 

Now having said everything about the superiority of the BB design, as a disclaimer please note that I am a realist in that the significance of it all depends on how different the stated BB dimension is from the alternative club. For example in the case of clubhead length, the improvement a BB clubhead has over a longer clubhead would not be that significant if it were only 1% shorter. But if it were 10% shorter the significance may make a noticeable difference in performance.

 

And so in my experience playing all different types of irons I can only say that the BBs are very superior to my GI clubs but as compared to my other blade sets they are only incrementally better. Most of the time it doesn't matter what blades I play for that day. But even so, if I'm playing for every possible advantage that I can have I'm playing my BBs no question. My Porn Stars set at that!

[DeNinny]

...

 

I've hit a LOT of clubs over the past few years trying to figure out what I'm going to do when I finally have to retire my baby blades. My black ones are on their 3rd refinish and I'm starting to hit knuckleballs with a few of them (especially the 7-iron). Pretty much any lie with any amount of grass between the ball and the club has become a flier lie. I played my chrome baby blades for the majority of the season last year and they're not doing much better. I chalk it up to how long I've had both sets (bought them at the same time) and the number of balls that I hit on a sandy range. These tools are wear items as much as I hate to admit it. Considering, the number of range balls that I hit though, they've performed very well.

 

...

 

Heya rebby. I was just curious about exactly how long you had a set of BBs from brand new until you saw significant face and grooves wear. Also how frequently you played and hit them to get to that point would be nice to know.

 

I got my two sets in the hopes that at least one of them would last my lifetime. I take really good care of them too and refuse to use them when the turf is sanded. (LOL my Retro TBs are my "beater" irons...my "Dirty Girls".) But I do play them frequently at 1-2 x per week.

[PopIt&DropIt]

You definitely helped me quite a bit DeNinny. The peace of mind you have given me has allowed me to stop searching for that slightly larger back up set and continue to focus exclusively on my game. It has been weighing on me pretty heavily (as the desperate OP makes clear) and I'm really happy to commit to BBs. My experience was showing me great results and telling me to commit, but growing up with modern golf marketing it was always nagging at me that I'm being silly for playing these and need something more "forgiving" before these eventually bite me in the a**.

 

I too feel the way you do about them regarding connecting to the game. They are just pure and honest that's how the game should be. There is just a feeling I get playing them that is difficult to put into words but you certainly captured much of it with yours. I love your enthusiasm for these clubs and the game in general.

 

Now I just need to get one of my sets done in some kind of burnt copper or oil can :) Yours are beautiful!

 

 

[rebby]

...

 

I've hit a LOT of clubs over the past few years trying to figure out what I'm going to do when I finally have to retire my baby blades. My black ones are on their 3rd refinish and I'm starting to hit knuckleballs with a few of them (especially the 7-iron). Pretty much any lie with any amount of grass between the ball and the club has become a flier lie. I played my chrome baby blades for the majority of the season last year and they're not doing much better. I chalk it up to how long I've had both sets (bought them at the same time) and the number of balls that I hit on a sandy range. These tools are wear items as much as I hate to admit it. Considering, the number of range balls that I hit though, they've performed very well.

 

...

 

Heya rebby. I was just curious about exactly how long you had a set of BBs from brand new until you saw significant face and grooves wear. Also how frequently you played and hit them to get to that point would be nice to know.

 

I got my two sets in the hopes that at least one of them would last my lifetime. I take really good care of them too and refuse to use them when the turf is sanded. (LOL my Retro TBs are my "beater" irons...my "Dirty Girls".) But I do play them frequently at 1-2 x per week.

 

I've owned a number of sets but the 2 that I own today I've had since Miura changed the stamping on the back (the original looked just like the TB). What really kills my irons is the fact that there is so much sand in my area and I hit a LOT of balls. Last summer alone I hit nearly 15k range balls (which isn't unusual for me, I go through wedges like women go through shoes). That does a number of a set of irons, especially irons w/out any type of chrome plating. I have a strong preference for black irons (obviously) so what I usually do is wear the club to the point of browning, then get it stripped and refinished in black oxide. At that point, they need a refresh every year or two. Eventually though, they just wear too much. You can slow things down on the sand by keeping the clubs/balls clean but you can only do so much, especially considering the quantity of balls that I hit. Maybe I need to get an SGI iron and spread out my impact? LOL

 

My black oxide blades are in pretty bad shape (although they look good due to a recent refinish), enough so that I'm more comfortable moving on to another set. My chrome set is certainly still serviceable, they're about ready for the aforementioned strip/refinish. That said, I get enough questions about their legality in tournament play (CoC, if the refinish is enough to require a closer look, etc - mainly due to ignorance) so it just made sense to find an alternative while I still have a good set of baby blades in hand. I've tried a couple of options over the past couple of years and kept going back to the baby blades which is certainly a possibility again this spring. I have a feeling that the p730s will stick around though due to just how similar they are to the 1957. I'm really impressed with TM with these irons and, for me, that's saying a LOT. I spent all winter hitting the p730 side by side with the 1957 and was able to get both sets really dialed in. Once the 10+ inches of snow melts, I might even get to hit them outside, on the sand filled ranges around here... Sigh.

 

Anyway, unless you beat range balls like I do, chances are that your irons are going to last you quite some time. I've certainly gotten my fair share of use out of them. I have zero complaints and have nearly bought yet another set of baby blades more times that I can count. As much as I love them though, I'm kind-of looking forward to having something new in the bag (for a few weeks anyway). ;)

[DeNinny]

You definitely helped me quite a bit DeNinny. The peace of mind you have given me has allowed me to stop searching for that slightly larger back up set and continue to focus exclusively on my game. It has been weighing on me pretty heavily (as the desperate OP makes clear) and I'm really happy to commit to BBs. My experience was showing me great results and telling me to commit, but growing up with modern golf marketing it was always nagging at me that I'm being silly for playing these and need something more "forgiving" before these eventually bite me in the a**.

 

I too feel the way you do about them regarding connecting to the game. They are just pure and honest that's how the game should be. There is just a feeling I get playing them that is difficult to put into words but you certainly captured much of it with yours. I love your enthusiasm for these clubs and the game in general.

 

Now I just need to get one of my sets done in some kind of burnt copper or oil can :) Yours are beautiful!

 

I'm really glad to have helped you. I too was once hesitant to commit to a set of BBs and did not have the technical understanding of them as I do now, so I am happy to also share my experience and help with your confidence. And I too had help and input from other WRXers like Bigmean, Marand, rebby, and a few others before taking the plunge and getting my set(s).

 

And LOL there is a mathematical correlation between my enthusiasm and technical understanding of the BBs. Knowing what I know about their design and construction is precisely why I love them so much. I understand clubs and the physics of this game down to the molecular level and there is beauty in the BB design and construction all the way down to it. As an engineer, to me they actually do have that purity and honesty that you mentioned from a technical standpoint.

 

So up until this point I've only been talking about the performance benefits of the BBs, but there's another part to them that also makes them superior which is the feel. And once again, there is no magic to it, it is simply physics that makes them feel so good as well. The design is part of it for sure, but on top of all of it the forging process by Miura is of the highest quality. When a club is forged, the goal is to basically distribute pockets or "clumps" of carbon evenly throughout the base iron by literally hammering the metal heated to high temperature. Effectively this is "mixing" the carbon into the iron sort of like mixing flour into bread dough by "kneading" it. In the old days when they made forged samurai swords the metal would get folded and hammered over and over, but nowadays you can do the equivalent of this if you have a ginormous hydraulic press that applies a high amount of pressure. And what Miura does is apply four hammer blows with a said ginormous hydraulic press (or forge), one clubhead at a time mind you, in order to evenly distribute those carbon clumps amidst the iron almost down to the molecular level. Here is a pic of how the carbon gets better distributed after each hydraulic press:

 

 

 

There is quite a difference between the first and last pics. And the bottom pic is clearly the more ordered and structured of all of them. And what this order and structure does is better transmit a pulse vibration as it travels through it. And ultimately this is why Miura clubs (all other things equal like design) feel so good.

 

The moment of impact creates a momentum change right at the first few molecules of contact between the ball and clubface. This momentum change (or pulse) then has a domino effect and causes the adjacent molecules to change momentum and so forth throughout the entire clubhead. And then when the molecules literally change from iron to carbon, due to their different literal molecular weights and their different molecular bonds, they won't transmit the momentum changes at the same rates. And so when the structure is ordered and the two different materials are well mixed with each other like in the last pic, this maintains the consistency of the pulse as it travels through the clubhead molecule by molecule. By contrast, when the materials aren't well distributed, then ultimately the pulse will gain "noise" and inconsistency when the base mixture is inconsistent like it is in the first pic.

 

And so what you are seeing in the last pic is truly a quality forging and why (again beyond the design and shape of the head) they feel so good. They transmit the "truth" of impact the clearest and the best. By contrast other mass production forgings are not done to the same level of quality as Miura with their single clubhead process. And then even worse for feel is if the head is made from a casting process which often does not distribute defects and the carbon amongst the iron nearly as well and as evenly as forging does. (But it is for sure a cheaper process.)

 

So now with the quality forging process by Miura on top of the best design for easy ball striking, the BB is truly a winner and again the science explains why.

 

And yes, with knowing all this you can truly focus on your game and enjoy the feel of it to the maximum with your set of BBs. LOL now you get to face the brutal truth in your own game. You have the best clubs to use when you are playing so you have no excuse from an equipment perspective anymore. You even have technical advantage over most other players, so now if you suck it is all on you!!! The BBs truly will bring out the purity and truth of your own game. That's the beauty of them!

 

But with all this I do have to mention my Retro TBs a bit since this is a Miura enthusiast thread. I bought them after my first BBs, the satins. Here are some pics and the last three are just of the heads before I shafted them and how the head size compares to my satin BBs:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As you can see, the BB is not really that much smaller than the Retros.

 

And when I bought them my intention was to have that quality Miura steel but also have a set that was more traditionally sized, LOL "just in case" those BBs didn't work out. But what I found was that they still could not replace the BBs from both a performance and feel perspective. For sure they felt better than almost all other non-Miura blades I ever hit, but still I prefer the feel of the BBs over them. It is slight for sure, but it's significant enough for me to notice and to care. And from a performance perspective they are a little too heavy for my swing and so I am over a half club and almost a full club shorter with them. Also they aren't quite as good out of trouble lies like thick rough compared to the BBs. Basically to me the Retro TBs are like most other blades but they have a better feel because of Miura's forging process. But also they just aren't as good as the BBs. All that said I still enjoy them, and as mentioned I call them my 'Dirty Girls' because they are still sexy as my beater and practice set.

 

And then for a while there I was happy with my clubs and backup clubs. I had Retro TBs to back up my BBs and then I also had my mp-67s to back up the Retros. I even thought what possibly could be more beautiful than my BBs? And then one day I saw some pics of rebby's black boron BBs. And then I became jelly. I had to have my own set. They were just too beautiful. And LMAO I told myself that I "needed" a true backup set to my satins in order to justify it. My wife just laughed. Also my Retros just didn't quite cut it. So I got a set of black borons and improved upon the shafts I put into the satins which got me almost half a club more distance. I also got a 2i (aka "Katana").

 

And so long story short I'm now a former club ho out of the game. Now I just focus on my own game and take perverted pictures like this:

 

 

 

And yea some burnt copper or oil can BBs would be sexy AF! I plan on letting my black borons wear naturally.

[DeNinny]

I've owned a number of sets but the 2 that I own today I've had since Miura changed the stamping on the back (the original looked just like the TB). What really kills my irons is the fact that there is so much sand in my area and I hit a LOT of balls. Last summer alone I hit nearly 15k range balls (which isn't unusual for me, I go through wedges like women go through shoes). That does a number of a set of irons, especially irons w/out any type of chrome plating. I have a strong preference for black irons (obviously) so what I usually do is wear the club to the point of browning, then get it stripped and refinished in black oxide. At that point, they need a refresh every year or two. Eventually though, they just wear too much. You can slow things down on the sand by keeping the clubs/balls clean but you can only do so much, especially considering the quantity of balls that I hit. Maybe I need to get an SGI iron and spread out my impact? LOL

 

My black oxide blades are in pretty bad shape (although they look good due to a recent refinish), enough so that I'm more comfortable moving on to another set. My chrome set is certainly still serviceable, they're about ready for the aforementioned strip/refinish. That said, I get enough questions about their legality in tournament play (CoC, if the refinish is enough to require a closer look, etc - mainly due to ignorance) so it just made sense to find an alternative while I still have a good set of baby blades in hand. I've tried a couple of options over the past couple of years and kept going back to the baby blades which is certainly a possibility again this spring. I have a feeling that the p730s will stick around though due to just how similar they are to the 1957. I'm really impressed with TM with these irons and, for me, that's saying a LOT. I spent all winter hitting the p730 side by side with the 1957 and was able to get both sets really dialed in. Once the 10+ inches of snow melts, I might even get to hit them outside, on the sand filled ranges around here... Sigh.

 

Anyway, unless you beat range balls like I do, chances are that your irons are going to last you quite some time. I've certainly gotten my fair share of use out of them. I have zero complaints and have nearly bought yet another set of baby blades more times that I can count. As much as I love them though, I'm kind-of looking forward to having something new in the bag (for a few weeks anyway). ;)

 

Thanks for all that context and yes for sure I foresee a long lifetime for both my sets as compared to how we play them. And I must admit, your description of how much you use BBs on sandy turf makes the engineer in me cringe. It's literally like rubbing 60 grit sandpaper on the face of your beautiful BBs on a regular basis! I couldn't do it myself. You are a committed BB player for sure!

 

Also from what I'm experiencing on all my Miura sets is an overall slower wear than when my Mizunos were new. I've never been the type to wear out clubfaces though. Here's some wear pics of my black borons over just a few weeks with them:

 

 

 

 

 

 

The black boron was kind of like impact tape at the start. But now there is enough overall wear that they are getting a dark patina look and it is harder to see specific hits.

[craz-e]

Why oh why do I keep coming back to these baby blade threads and seeing all those damn sexy photos and even more tempting real world experiences with them!.

 

Damn you all!

[PopIt&DropIt]

You definitely helped me quite a bit DeNinny. The peace of mind you have given me has allowed me to stop searching for that slightly larger back up set and continue to focus exclusively on my game. It has been weighing on me pretty heavily (as the desperate OP makes clear) and I'm really happy to commit to BBs. My experience was showing me great results and telling me to commit, but growing up with modern golf marketing it was always nagging at me that I'm being silly for playing these and need something more "forgiving" before these eventually bite me in the a**.

 

I too feel the way you do about them regarding connecting to the game. They are just pure and honest that's how the game should be. There is just a feeling I get playing them that is difficult to put into words but you certainly captured much of it with yours. I love your enthusiasm for these clubs and the game in general.

 

Now I just need to get one of my sets done in some kind of burnt copper or oil can :) Yours are beautiful!

 

I'm really glad to have helped you. I too was once hesitant to commit to a set of BBs and did not have the technical understanding of them as I do now, so I am happy to also share my experience and help with your confidence. And I too had help and input from other WRXers like Bigmean, Marand, rebby, and a few others before taking the plunge and getting my set(s).

 

And LOL there is a mathematical correlation between my enthusiasm and technical understanding of the BBs. Knowing what I know about their design and construction is precisely why I love them so much. I understand clubs and the physics of this game down to the molecular level and there is beauty in the BB design and construction all the way down to it. As an engineer, to me they actually do have that purity and honesty that you mentioned from a technical standpoint.

 

So up until this point I've only been talking about the performance benefits of the BBs, but there's another part to them that also makes them superior which is the feel. And once again, there is no magic to it, it is simply physics that makes them feel so good as well. The design is part of it for sure, but on top of all of it the forging process by Miura is of the highest quality. When a club is forged, the goal is to basically distribute pockets or "clumps" of carbon evenly throughout the base iron by literally hammering the metal heated to high temperature. Effectively this is "mixing" the carbon into the iron sort of like mixing flour into bread dough by "kneading" it. In the old days when they made forged samurai swords the metal would get folded and hammered over and over, but nowadays you can do the equivalent of this if you have a ginormous hydraulic press that applies a high amount of pressure. And what Miura does is apply four hammer blows with a said ginormous hydraulic press (or forge), one clubhead at a time mind you, in order to evenly distribute those carbon clumps amidst the iron almost down to the molecular level. Here is a pic of how the carbon gets better distributed after each hydraulic press:

 

 

 

There is quite a difference between the first and last pics. And the bottom pic is clearly the more ordered and structured of all of them. And what this order and structure does is better transmit a pulse vibration as it travels through it. And ultimately this is why Miura clubs (all other things equal like design) feel so good.

 

The moment of impact creates a momentum change right at the first few molecules of contact between the ball and clubface. This momentum change (or pulse) then has a domino effect and causes the adjacent molecules to change momentum and so forth throughout the entire clubhead. And then when the molecules literally change from iron to carbon, due to their different literal molecular weights and their different molecular bonds, they won't transmit the momentum changes at the same rates. And so when the structure is ordered and the two different materials are well mixed with each other like in the last pic, this maintains the consistency of the pulse as it travels through the clubhead molecule by molecule. By contrast, when the materials aren't well distributed, then ultimately the pulse will gain "noise" and inconsistency when the base mixture is inconsistent like it is in the first pic.

 

And so what you are seeing in the last pic is truly a quality forging and why (again beyond the design and shape of the head) they feel so good. They transmit the "truth" of impact the clearest and the best. By contrast other mass production forgings are not done to the same level of quality as Miura with their single clubhead process. And then even worse for feel is if the head is made from a casting process which often does not distribute defects and the carbon amongst the iron nearly as well and as evenly as forging does. (But it is for sure a cheaper process.)

 

So now with the quality forging process by Miura on top of the best design for easy ball striking, the BB is truly a winner and again the science explains why.

 

And yes, with knowing all this you can truly focus on your game and enjoy the feel of it to the maximum with your set of BBs. LOL now you get to face the brutal truth in your own game. You have the best clubs to use when you are playing so you have no excuse from an equipment perspective anymore. You even have technical advantage over most other players, so now if you suck it is all on you!!! The BBs truly will bring out the purity and truth of your own game. That's the beauty of them!

 

But with all this I do have to mention my Retro TBs a bit since this is a Miura enthusiast thread. I bought them after my first BBs, the satins. Here are some pics and the last three are just of the heads before I shafted them and how the head size compares to my satin BBs:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As you can see, the BB is not really that much smaller than the Retros.

 

And when I bought them my intention was to have that quality Miura steel but also have a set that was more traditionally sized, LOL "just in case" those BBs didn't work out. But what I found was that they still could not replace the BBs from both a performance and feel perspective. For sure they felt better than almost all other non-Miura blades I ever hit, but still I prefer the feel of the BBs over them. It is slight for sure, but it's significant enough for me to notice and to care. And from a performance perspective they are a little too heavy for my swing and so I am over a half club and almost a full club shorter with them. Also they aren't quite as good out of trouble lies like thick rough compared to the BBs. Basically to me the Retro TBs are like most other blades but they have a better feel because of Miura's forging process. But also they just aren't as good as the BBs. All that said I still enjoy them, and as mentioned I call them my 'Dirty Girls' because they are still sexy as my beater and practice set.

 

And then for a while there I was happy with my clubs and backup clubs. I had Retro TBs to back up my BBs and then I also had my mp-67s to back up the Retros. I even thought what possibly could be more beautiful than my BBs? And then one day I saw some pics of rebby's black boron BBs. And then I became jelly. I had to have my own set. They were just too beautiful. And LMAO I told myself that I "needed" a true backup set to my satins in order to justify it. My wife just laughed. Also my Retros just didn't quite cut it. So I got a set of black borons and improved upon the shafts I put into the satins which got me almost half a club more distance. I also got a 2i (aka "Katana").

 

And so long story short I'm now a former club ho out of the game. Now I just focus on my own game and take perverted pictures like this:

 

 

 

And yea some burnt copper or oil can BBs would be sexy AF! I plan on letting my black borons wear naturally.

 

Man really good stuff once again. The superiority of the forging process was one of the few things you've written that I understood already and knew that's one of the major things we are paying for, but I certainly didn't understand it to that level and enjoyed learning more. Got to love them doing one single club head at a time four times! Really makes a lot of sense and explains why you just arent going to get that kind of quality control from the oems without going tour issue. And even then it sounds like they are probably a bit behind and you should just go Miura anyway because the tour issue prices are meeting and exceeding miura prices at that point.

 

How this all relates to feel was very interesting. In all honesty, while I enjoy the miura feel I have a slight preference to the softer mizuno type feel. I dont know if its actual preference or just the couple million shots I've hit with softer feeling clubs burned that feeling as "good" into my brain. With that said I certainly enjoy the miura feel off the sweet spot and its liveliness is a very very close second to the softness of others and it's not an issue for me. What absolutely cannot be replicated with any other club is the accuracy and immediacy of the feel off the club head. Like you said they transmit the truth better than anything else which is what I meant when I said they are as honest as they come. I just cant imagine giving that up and I'm glad I'm no longer considering it.

 

Another very big thank you for the enlightenment. I see the BBs in a new and far more positive light. The only negative light they ever got was from my mind running rampant with possibilities that I haven't experienced and were placed in my head by outside sources trying to sell their "science." My experience has been nothing short of stellar and the more years I'm alive the more I learn to trust my experience above all else. Another version of the same lesson learned!

 

To touch briefly on your discussion about wearing out the BBs I have my own methods of dealing with it. First I got another set and know I can get them rechromed and regrooved at least once each with no issues, which covers a few years at least. With that said I am trying to "make it" and practice and play a lot. As I believe I've mentioned once or twice around here I'm a big believer in making practice as difficult as possible. You won't see me stroking 7 irons all day on the range that is for sure. So a majority of my practice consists of doing very challenging drills and executing them with long irons first, and then ultimately with driver off the deck (the ultimate expression of swing plane control, especially with the modern sized clubs). So I got an extra 3 iron to practice with and even have a 1 and 2 on order (thanks kaaayelll) that will see a lot of work. This isn't to say I dont ever hit my other clubs on the range, of course I do, but they won't see a lionshare of the work. I think you'll be surprised how easy it is to hit your short irons when your 3 iron or DOD is pure. It certainly doesn't work the other way around :) Anyway that will surely extend the life of my gamers by a good amount of time and I thought there might be some relevant ideas in there for you. No worries if not, I know my methods arent for everyone. But similar to the BBs and why I was originally drawn to them, these methods will give you an extremely clear picture of where your swing truly is. Anyone can get into a groove hitting the same seven iron shot on the range and feel like they are getting better, but how often does that translate to the course? It's just grooving compensations in the end and short irons make that quite easy to do. DOD on the other hand won't let you get away with that ;)

 

Another very large thank you for taking the time you have to share in here. I originally wasn't thrilled that I created this thread and wasnt all that excited to see it brought back to life the other day, but something truly great has come of it and I'm really grateful for that. I suspect if any other seekers are willing to dig through it there will be lots for them to learn. Good on you sir!

[PopIt&DropIt]

Why oh why do I keep coming back to these baby blade threads and seeing all those damn sexy photos and even more tempting real world experiences with them!.

 

Damn you all!

 

Dont worry man, they look pretty crappy in a bag. Especially in person. You arent missing much ;)

[DeNinny]

craz-e FWIW in my professional opinion and notwithstanding the baby blades, I think the FG-59s are the best iron design out there. I like ogling them when my BBs aren't around.

[DeNinny]

Man really good stuff once again. The superiority of the forging process was one of the few things you've written that I understood already and knew that's one of the major things we are paying for, but I certainly didn't understand it to that level and enjoyed learning more. Got to love them doing one single club head at a time four times! Really makes a lot of sense and explains why you just arent going to get that kind of quality control from the oems without going tour issue. And even then it sounds like they are probably a bit behind and you should just go Miura anyway because the tour issue prices are meeting and exceeding miura prices at that point.

 

How this all relates to feel was very interesting. In all honesty, while I enjoy the miura feel I have a slight preference to the softer mizuno type feel. I dont know if its actual preference or just the couple million shots I've hit with softer feeling clubs burned that feeling as "good" into my brain. With that said I certainly enjoy the miura feel off the sweet spot and its liveliness is a very very close second to the softness of others and it's not an issue for me. What absolutely cannot be replicated with any other club is the accuracy and immediacy of the feel off the club head. Like you said they transmit the truth better than anything else which is what I meant when I said they are as honest as they come. I just cant imagine giving that up and I'm glad I'm no longer considering it.

 

Another very big thank you for the enlightenment. I see the BBs in a new and far more positive light. The only negative light they ever got was from my mind running rampant with possibilities that I haven't experienced and were placed in my head by outside sources trying to sell their "science." My experience has been nothing short of stellar and the more years I'm alive the more I learn to trust my experience above all else. Another version of the same lesson learned!

 

To touch briefly on your discussion about wearing out the BBs I have my own methods of dealing with it. First I got another set and know I can get them rechromed and regrooved at least once each with no issues, which covers a few years at least. With that said I am trying to "make it" and practice and play a lot. As I believe I've mentioned once or twice around here I'm a big believer in making practice as difficult as possible. You won't see me stroking 7 irons all day on the range that is for sure. So a majority of my practice consists of doing very challenging drills and executing them with long irons first, and then ultimately with driver off the deck (the ultimate expression of swing plane control, especially with the modern sized clubs). So I got an extra 3 iron to practice with and even have a 1 and 2 on order (thanks kaaayelll) that will see a lot of work. This isn't to say I dont ever hit my other clubs on the range, of course I do, but they won't see a lionshare of the work. I think you'll be surprised how easy it is to hit your short irons when your 3 iron or DOD is pure. It certainly doesn't work the other way around :) Anyway that will surely extend the life of my gamers by a good amount of time and I thought there might be some relevant ideas in there for you. No worries if not, I know my methods arent for everyone. But similar to the BBs and why I was originally drawn to them, these methods will give you an extremely clear picture of where your swing truly is. Anyone can get into a groove hitting the same seven iron shot on the range and feel like they are getting better, but how often does that translate to the course? It's just grooving compensations in the end and short irons make that quite easy to do. DOD on the other hand won't let you get away with that ;)

 

Another very large thank you for taking the time you have to share in here. I originally wasn't thrilled that I created this thread and wasnt all that excited to see it brought back to life the other day, but something truly great has come of it and I'm really grateful for that. I suspect if any other seekers are willing to dig through it there will be lots for them to learn. Good on you sir!

 

I get what you are saying about Mizuno feel. It is "buttery" soft. And I thought it was the greatest feel ever. But then I hit some Miuras on real turf. And LOL just like that guy in the mattress commercials I thought to myself, "I've been living a lie." I got hit hard by the "truth" of Miura forged steel. If hitting a Mizuno blade pure feels like hitting a marshmallow, hitting a Miura blade is like hitting a frozen one. There is a solid and "crispy" feel to them that distinguishes them from Mizuno. It is somewhat from design differences but again the different forging processes and raw steel used are going to change the feel too. It ultimately is a matter of personal preference what feels the best and for me I am completely addicted to Miura's feel. Other clubs, even my beloved mp67s just don't feel as good anymore. Miuras have ruined other clubs for good with me.

 

LMAO to take it even farther, I don't even want to play my Cal Hottie BBs anymore ATM because they don't have leather grips like my Porn Stars have. Getting the right feel to me is getting everything right in the material from impact to my hands. And the combination of leather grips, quality steel shafts, glued heads, and top notch forged steel is what I have sought to "engineer" to the best of my abilities and it is to the point that I want no compromise. LOL as such I am not even playing my Cal Hotties until I get their new kangaroo leather grips on them.

 

One other thing to mention about superior feel at the molecular level is that interfaces between multiple materials also introduces "noise" and lowers the quality of the feel. In particular clubheads with plastic and metal combined are just horrible for it. And again it gets down to issues at the molecular level. The way plastic molecules vibrate is much different than steel. Plus, at the interface between the two materials there are literally "voids" or pockets of emptiness because, at the molecular level, two materials don't ever "fit" each other perfect like a puzzle. So as a pulse from vibrations crosses this interface, it loses its "purity". (LOL but it sure is cheaper to use plastic and cast carbon steel than a single block of high quality forged carbon steel.)

 

So once again the BBs are superior in feel to all these multi-material irons that are made that way for no other technical reason than cost.

 

Also yeah I too practice with that black boron 2i a lot for all the reasons you stated. LOL she's called Katana because she is the queen and harsh mistress of my Porn Stars. She "hurts" me soooo good! And when I can hit her well, I can hit all my irons well.

 

Also the reason I keep my Retros is so that I can practice them, still get the Miura feel that I crave, and minimize the wear on my BB sets. Plus, because the heads are bigger, when I switch to my BBs my ball striking gets a little easier.

 

I'm so glad we can relate to each other and you understand and appreciate my technical explanations. LOL all I'm doing is explaining the pure and simple physical reality. You can mark my words and my promise to any fellow WRXer is that I will NEVER contradict a law of science in anything I ever post.

[DeNinny]

Man really good stuff once again. The superiority of the forging process was one of the few things you've written that I understood already and knew that's one of the major things we are paying for, but I certainly didn't understand it to that level and enjoyed learning more. Got to love them doing one single club head at a time four times! Really makes a lot of sense and explains why you just arent going to get that kind of quality control from the oems without going tour issue. And even then it sounds like they are probably a bit behind and you should just go Miura anyway because the tour issue prices are meeting and exceeding miura prices at that point.

...

 

 

This is Miura's manufacturing process in all its simple (and manual) glory. Compare this to the major OEMs like Mizuno who forge their clubs in more of an automated assembly line process. Or better yet compare it to a casting process where they just pour melted steel into molds like making ice cubes.

 

That Miura is even willing to openly share the entire manufacturing process like this says a lot to me. As an engineer I really appreciate seeing that ginormous press. I know it is applying huge amounts of force on the club with each of those strikes because at my materials science engineering lab class at Cal there was one similar. In one pressing, that press is doing the equivalent of hundreds of thousands of old school hammer blows to the steel.