R.I.P Bridgestone Firestone CC

[Big Ben]

Unless you have actually played the South course it's impossible to see the genius in it. If they choose to grow the rough out scores would be above par I promise. And that's from a course that is right in front of you! BB

[BNGL]

Unless you have actually played the South course it's impossible to see the genius in it. If they choose to grow the rough out scores would be above par I promise. And that's from a course that is right in front of you! BB

 

Think this opens up Firestone for a US Open?

[myurick2]

I've played both Firestone South and North. Having read the very old quote from Jack Nicklaus that the South Course was "boring," I was prepared to feel the same way.

 

Instead I was delighted. It is a very good golf course with great green complexes. A solid layout. I respectfully disagree with Jack Nicklaus (whose quote about Firestone is about 50 years old).

 

We have all been treated to some very exciting Tour events at Firestone in the Tiger era, many of them courtesy of Mr. Woods.

 

I feel bad for the terrific career employees and golf staff at Firestone CC.

Boring compared to what? Any Nicklaus course? Every Nicklaus course I've played had been the same stupid forced carry situation over and over again. Muirfield Village doesn't suck because Desmond Muirhead had a hand in designing it. Nicklaus' own courses don't compare well to Firestone South. Jack was the best player- but his courses suck. He was also the original slow player, plumb bobbing 3 woods, ect.

[tiderider]

How is my being a Texan and Jupiter Island resident qualify as homer? And why is it the least interesting?

Nostalgia and homerism are cousins. You've played the course and have memories attached to it; I get it.

 

Architecturally, Firestone is a complete abomination. This is not a controversial opinion in the GCA world.

 

The course is one long, narrow, tree-lined hole after another. 16 and 18 are the only memorable holes on the course, and I'd argue both are memorable for reasons that do nothing to compliment the layout.

 

We know 16 because it's essentially an unreachable beast with that stupid pond short and right of the green (and the narrow chute where you can run a ball up the left). When a course only has two par 5s, having one of them be an unreachable, uninteresting 3-shotter takes the fun out of both playing and watching.

 

(I don't know about you, but I don't play or watch golf for par saves or 15-foot birdie putts on par 5s.)

 

And we all know about 18 and its soft dogleg left because Tiger seemed to pull a Superman™ act there every year on Sunday.

 

Other than that, I'd be fine if the rest of the property were devoted to generating a corn subsidy.

 

Completely disagree. Firestone South is a strong, solid honest course that still stands up to the best PGA pros even today. I'd rate #16 among the ten best par fives in the world. #3 and #4 are serious trouble for golfers on the front. The only strike against it, is that nearly all the holes run in one of two directions.

 

how is 16 one of the best par fives in the world? ... almost no one ever goes for it ... it's essentially a par 3 ...

[Big Ben]

Unless you have actually played the South course it's impossible to see the genius in it. If they choose to grow the rough out scores would be above par I promise. And that's from a course that is right in front of you! BB

 

Think this opens up Firestone for a US Open?

I actually really do. I recall one year the USGA worked with staff and quietly grew the rough out to test for this very thing. It would not suprise me one bit. They actually used that agitating grass thingy too, it was BRUTAL that year for the tournament. I was chatting with JB Holmes for a second the following year and he said thank God it's not like last year! BB

[GeorgeHWB]

It's a shame that the site of Stevie Williams' most important win will no longer host a tournament.

[buckeyefl]

Not sure if its still true but Firestone used to be able to host a tour event with a weeks notice. Everything was set up and waiting for the cameras and crews.

[Schley]

Unless you have actually played the South course it's impossible to see the genius in it. If they choose to grow the rough out scores would be above par I promise. And that's from a course that is right in front of you! BB

 

Think this opens up Firestone for a US Open?

 

We are limited by geography that the USGA rotates the event from left to right to middle of the country. With Oakmont and a lesser extent Merion and probably not Iverness. You could throw Oakland Hills in that list perhaps. Using Murifield Village for a US Open/PGA Championship has always been talked about before Jack passes and wouldn't be surprised to see it happen. However, Firestone could be a worthy US Open venue and would be a nice inclusion. Unfortunately the USGA tries to plan things out 10 years out and cycles the courses way too much IMO. I mean we have 2027 taken up already! WTF? Do we need a US Open at Shinnecock this year and again in 2026?

 

I like LACC being put back in the mix, but Torrey Pines every 10 years? Pebble, yes, but I don't think we need Shinnecock, Oakmont, Winged Foot every 10 years. I'd like to open it up for some others to throw in there. They haven't been in the south for a long time and now with the PGA moving to May I suspect they will use some of the Texas, Oklahoma, Georgia, Florida courses perhaps.

[mjen43]

Unless you have actually played the South course it's impossible to see the genius in it. If they choose to grow the rough out scores would be above par I promise. And that's from a course that is right in front of you! BB

 

Everyone keeps saying it is hard. We understand that, but what makes it good? Where is the strategy and decision making? Where are the options? Where are the interesting green complexes? Every single hole is long, narrow, and tree lined with similarly basic green complexes. It is trackman golf and the epitome of bomb and gauge/penal architecture. The only strategy is to mash driver as long and straight as you possibly can. There’s just not much thought/imagination put it into the design. Sure, it’s fair, but so is the trackman combine, that doesn’t make it good.

 

It’s original design was mutilated by RTJ for the sake of difficulty and it is a prime example of dark age era golf course architecture. Hopefully the US Open never steps foot on the site. I don’t mind it for a regular tour event though, I just don’t pretend it is interesting/thought provoking/strategic or anything more than what we’ve seen a million times. It’s very similar to Torrey Pines (which I also wish wouldn’t host US Opens). Can provide a fair tournament test, not so low scores, but doesn’t really capture the imagination or provide any interesting/unique challenges.

[buckeyefl]

Have you played there?

[BNGL]

Unless you have actually played the South course it's impossible to see the genius in it. If they choose to grow the rough out scores would be above par I promise. And that's from a course that is right in front of you! BB

 

Everyone keeps saying it is hard. We understand that, but what makes it good? Where is the strategy and decision making? Where are the options? Where are the interesting green complexes? Every single hole is long, narrow, and tree lined with similarly basic green complexes. It is trackman golf and the epitome of bomb and gauge/penal architecture. The only strategy is to mash driver as long and straight as you possibly can. Theres just not much thought/imagination put it into the design. Sure, its fair, but so is the trackman combine, that doesnt make it good.

 

Its original design was mutilated by RTJ for the sake of difficulty and it is a prime example of dark age era golf course architecture. Hopefully the US Open never steps foot on the site. I dont mind it for a regular tour event though, I just dont pretend it is interesting/thought provoking/strategic or anything more than what weve seen a million times. Its very similar to Torrey Pines (which I also wish wouldnt host US Opens). Can provide a fair tournament test, not so low scores, but doesnt really capture the imagination or provide any interesting/unique challenges.

 

What makes it good is the fact that good shots are rewarded. It's a full examination of you're game, nothing gimmicky at all like ANGC slopes or the extremes of the USGA, the luck of the draw at the British. I know that if the number is 173 and I hit 173 I'm going to have a good look at birdie, and if I hit it 174 I've gotta scramble and play defense to make par. As far as trackman golf it doesn't favor any player, I'll go back to last year zach Johnson had the 54 hole lead with Thomas Pieters. Luke Donald has been runner up, Johnathon Kaye, Jim Furyk, Justin Leonard as well not exactly long hitters but they got it done in other ways. Shane Lowry has won there, as has Darren Clarke (longer than a ton of ams but not relative to tour professionals).

[klebs01]

Unless you have actually played the South course it's impossible to see the genius in it. If they choose to grow the rough out scores would be above par I promise. And that's from a course that is right in front of you! BB

 

Everyone keeps saying it is hard. We understand that, but what makes it good? Where is the strategy and decision making? Where are the options? Where are the interesting green complexes? Every single hole is long, narrow, and tree lined with similarly basic green complexes. It is trackman golf and the epitome of bomb and gauge/penal architecture. The only strategy is to mash driver as long and straight as you possibly can. Theres just not much thought/imagination put it into the design. Sure, its fair, but so is the trackman combine, that doesnt make it good.

 

Its original design was mutilated by RTJ for the sake of difficulty and it is a prime example of dark age era golf course architecture. Hopefully the US Open never steps foot on the site. I dont mind it for a regular tour event though, I just dont pretend it is interesting/thought provoking/strategic or anything more than what weve seen a million times. Its very similar to Torrey Pines (which I also wish wouldnt host US Opens). Can provide a fair tournament test, not so low scores, but doesnt really capture the imagination or provide any interesting/unique challenges.

 

What makes it good is the fact that good shots are rewarded. It's a full examination of you're game, nothing gimmicky at all like ANGC slopes or the extremes of the USGA, the luck of the draw at the British. I know that if the number is 173 and I hit 173 I'm going to have a good look at birdie, and if I hit it 174 I've gotta scramble and play defense to make par. As far as trackman golf it doesn't favor any player, I'll go back to last year zach Johnson had the 54 hole lead with Thomas Pieters. Luke Donald has been runner up, Johnathon Kaye, Jim Furyk, Justin Leonard as well not exactly long hitters but they got it done in other ways. Shane Lowry has won there, as has Darren Clarke (longer than a ton of ams but not relative to tour professionals).

 

Your response supports the trackman golf position. Specific shot is required and clear, execute or be punished. I disagree that it’s a complete test. It doesn’t test strategy or decision making.

 

In the end, this is really a discussion about a preference for penal architecture or strategic architecture. There are those that believe golf should be a test of specific shots and execution rewarded or penalized. There are others that love the shades of grey, options and fractional shot advantages. Firestone is clearly a penal course, so those that prefer strategic courses and golf aren’t fans and aren’t sad to see it go.

[DatSliceDoe]

This is awful news. I loved attending this tourney, especially because the course is great for spectators with it being a more traditional layout and great players it always brought. I'll for sure be going this year. Shame the only other tour stop left in Ohio is now Muirfield, which is a nicer course, but nearly impossible to get tickets for and not nearly as nice for spectators. I remember when the senior tour had a stop at the Grizzly in Cincinnati, but man has that course gone downhill since it left. Guess the sponsor money has left Ohio or something. I doubt we will ever get an additional PGA event here for a decade or longer now that Firestone is done for. It is nice that they will get a senior event, but who are we kidding. There is no equivalent to real tour golf.

[BNGL]

Unless you have actually played the South course it's impossible to see the genius in it. If they choose to grow the rough out scores would be above par I promise. And that's from a course that is right in front of you! BB

 

Everyone keeps saying it is hard. We understand that, but what makes it good? Where is the strategy and decision making? Where are the options? Where are the interesting green complexes? Every single hole is long, narrow, and tree lined with similarly basic green complexes. It is trackman golf and the epitome of bomb and gauge/penal architecture. The only strategy is to mash driver as long and straight as you possibly can. Theres just not much thought/imagination put it into the design. Sure, its fair, but so is the trackman combine, that doesnt make it good.

 

Its original design was mutilated by RTJ for the sake of difficulty and it is a prime example of dark age era golf course architecture. Hopefully the US Open never steps foot on the site. I dont mind it for a regular tour event though, I just dont pretend it is interesting/thought provoking/strategic or anything more than what weve seen a million times. Its very similar to Torrey Pines (which I also wish wouldnt host US Opens). Can provide a fair tournament test, not so low scores, but doesnt really capture the imagination or provide any interesting/unique challenges.

 

What makes it good is the fact that good shots are rewarded. It's a full examination of you're game, nothing gimmicky at all like ANGC slopes or the extremes of the USGA, the luck of the draw at the British. I know that if the number is 173 and I hit 173 I'm going to have a good look at birdie, and if I hit it 174 I've gotta scramble and play defense to make par. As far as trackman golf it doesn't favor any player, I'll go back to last year zach Johnson had the 54 hole lead with Thomas Pieters. Luke Donald has been runner up, Johnathon Kaye, Jim Furyk, Justin Leonard as well not exactly long hitters but they got it done in other ways. Shane Lowry has won there, as has Darren Clarke (longer than a ton of ams but not relative to tour professionals).

 

Your response supports the trackman golf position. Specific shot is required and clear, execute or be punished. I disagree that it’s a complete test. It doesn’t test strategy or decision making.

 

In the end, this is really a discussion about a preference for penal architecture or strategic architecture. There are those that believe golf should be a test of specific shots and execution rewarded or penalized. There are others that love the shades of grey, options and fractional shot advantages. Firestone is clearly a penal course, so those that prefer strategic courses and golf aren’t fans and aren’t sad to see it go.

 

Thank you for speaking o behalf of golf fans everywhere. Moderators may close thread now, verdict has been reached!

[Darth Putter]

These days we need old school long hard parkland courses like Firestone South to break up the TPC Whatever monotony.

 

You want to talk about long hard "one hole courses" that are boring, look no farther than the TPC at Southwind.

[lowheel]

Unless you have actually played the South course it's impossible to see the genius in it. If they choose to grow the rough out scores would be above par I promise. And that's from a course that is right in front of you! BB

 

Yes exactly. Well said.

[CEPick]

Let's face it. No one wants to play golf in Ohio, especially in early August. If it wasn't for Jack's tourney, the Tour wouldn't make stops there.

[lowheel]

How is my being a Texan and Jupiter Island resident qualify as homer? And why is it the least interesting?

Nostalgia and homerism are cousins. You've played the course and have memories attached to it; I get it.

 

Architecturally, Firestone is a complete abomination. This is not a controversial opinion in the GCA world.

 

The course is one long, narrow, tree-lined hole after another. 16 and 18 are the only memorable holes on the course, and I'd argue both are memorable for reasons that do nothing to compliment the layout.

 

We know 16 because it's essentially an unreachable beast with that stupid pond short and right of the green (and the narrow chute where you can run a ball up the left). When a course only has two par 5s, having one of them be an unreachable, uninteresting 3-shotter takes the fun out of both playing and watching.

 

(I don't know about you, but I don't play or watch golf for par saves or 15-foot birdie putts on par 5s.)

 

And we all know about 18 and its soft dogleg left because Tiger seemed to pull a Superman™ act there every year on Sunday.

 

Other than that, I'd be fine if the rest of the property were devoted to generating a corn subsidy.

 

Completely disagree. Firestone South is a strong, solid honest course that still stands up to the best PGA pros even today. I'd rate #16 among the ten best par fives in the world. #3 and #4 are serious trouble for golfers on the front. The only strike against it, is that nearly all the holes run in one of two directions.

 

how is 16 one of the best par fives in the world? ... almost no one ever goes for it ... it's essentially a par 3 ...

 

Par 5s dont have to be gettable in 2 to be great. Almost impossible to stop a wedge close when its front right pin placement. If you miss the fairway with your drive its a very challenging layup

[BNGL]

Let's face it. No one wants to play golf in Ohio, especially in early August. If it wasn't for Jack's tourney, the Tour wouldn't make stops there.

 

Canterbury is a fun place and quality track that has produced quality winners the past two years

[buckeyefl]

Let's face it. No one wants to play golf in Ohio, especially in early August. If it wasn't for Jack's tourney, the Tour wouldn't make stops there.

 

Lol. Yes there is no good golf in Ohio.Memphis in August is somehow better? I used to live in Western Tennessee and central Florida and I would take Florida in August every time.

[tiderider]

How is my being a Texan and Jupiter Island resident qualify as homer? And why is it the least interesting?

Nostalgia and homerism are cousins. You've played the course and have memories attached to it; I get it.

 

Architecturally, Firestone is a complete abomination. This is not a controversial opinion in the GCA world.

 

The course is one long, narrow, tree-lined hole after another. 16 and 18 are the only memorable holes on the course, and I'd argue both are memorable for reasons that do nothing to compliment the layout.

 

We know 16 because it's essentially an unreachable beast with that stupid pond short and right of the green (and the narrow chute where you can run a ball up the left). When a course only has two par 5s, having one of them be an unreachable, uninteresting 3-shotter takes the fun out of both playing and watching.

 

(I don't know about you, but I don't play or watch golf for par saves or 15-foot birdie putts on par 5s.)

 

And we all know about 18 and its soft dogleg left because Tiger seemed to pull a Superman™ act there every year on Sunday.

 

Other than that, I'd be fine if the rest of the property were devoted to generating a corn subsidy.

 

Completely disagree. Firestone South is a strong, solid honest course that still stands up to the best PGA pros even today. I'd rate #16 among the ten best par fives in the world. #3 and #4 are serious trouble for golfers on the front. The only strike against it, is that nearly all the holes run in one of two directions.

 

how is 16 one of the best par fives in the world? ... almost no one ever goes for it ... it's essentially a par 3 ...

 

Par 5s dont have to be gettable in 2 to be great. Almost impossible to stop a wedge close when its front right pin placement. If you miss the fairway with your drive its a very challenging layup

 

no, but the inability to get a wedge close isn't a trait unique to a par five ... that could exist for any par 3 or 4 ... missing the fway on ANY par five could result in a difficult layup ... a great par 5 has a risk/reward dynamic to it ... there's almost none of that present for that hole ...

[DatSliceDoe]

Let's face it. No one wants to play golf in Ohio, especially in early August. If it wasn't for Jack's tourney, the Tour wouldn't make stops there.

 

Your post makes zero sense considering they are moving this tourney to Memphis where it will almost certainly be hotter and stickier than Akron. Jack's tourney has zero to do with this decision. It is an entirely separate event with no bearing on anything here.

[jli2636]

How is my being a Texan and Jupiter Island resident qualify as homer? And why is it the least interesting?

Nostalgia and homerism are cousins. You've played the course and have memories attached to it; I get it.

 

Architecturally, Firestone is a complete abomination. This is not a controversial opinion in the GCA world.

 

The course is one long, narrow, tree-lined hole after another. 16 and 18 are the only memorable holes on the course, and I'd argue both are memorable for reasons that do nothing to compliment the layout.

 

We know 16 because it's essentially an unreachable beast with that stupid pond short and right of the green (and the narrow chute where you can run a ball up the left). When a course only has two par 5s, having one of them be an unreachable, uninteresting 3-shotter takes the fun out of both playing and watching.

 

(I don't know about you, but I don't play or watch golf for par saves or 15-foot birdie putts on par 5s.)

 

And we all know about 18 and its soft dogleg left because Tiger seemed to pull a Superman™ act there every year on Sunday.

 

Other than that, I'd be fine if the rest of the property were devoted to generating a corn subsidy.

 

Completely disagree. Firestone South is a strong, solid honest course that still stands up to the best PGA pros even today. I'd rate #16 among the ten best par fives in the world. #3 and #4 are serious trouble for golfers on the front. The only strike against it, is that nearly all the holes run in one of two directions.

 

how is 16 one of the best par fives in the world? ... almost no one ever goes for it ... it's essentially a par 3 ...

 

Par 5s dont have to be gettable in 2 to be great. Almost impossible to stop a wedge close when its front right pin placement. If you miss the fairway with your drive its a very challenging layup

The layout is literally go out one way and come back the other. Half the holes will be down wind and half will be into the wind, or one way will be left and the other will be right. Back and forth, long and narrow, no variation. Like someone already mentioned, 16 becomes another par 3 since nobody goes for it in 2. It’s not even a top 15 par 5 on tour let alone the world. I also feel the argument of “have you played it?” holds absolutely ZERO weight. I don’t have to play a course to know crappy architecture just like I don’t have to play Augusta or Pine Valley to know it has great architecture. I think a lot of people have sentimental value because they have either played it or went to the tournament for years. And that’s great, but it allows bias to enter easier. Also, just because the course is bad doesn’t mean the tournament is. They can be and often are exclusive, same thing with good and difficult for a tour course. My guess is tour players love coming here because their homework is half done for them.

[knock it close]

The layout is literally go out one way and come back the other. Half the holes will be down wind and half will be into the wind, or one way will be left and the other will be right. Back and forth, long and narrow, no variation. Like someone already mentioned, 16 becomes another par 3 since nobody goes for it in 2. It's not even a top 15 par 5 on tour let alone the world. I also feel the argument of "have you played it?" holds absolutely ZERO weight. I don't have to play a course to know crappy architecture just like I don't have to play Augusta or Pine Valley to know it has great architecture. I think a lot of people have sentimental value because they have either played it or went to the tournament for years. And that's great, but it allows bias to enter easier. Also, just because the course is bad doesn't mean the tournament is. They can be and often are exclusive, same thing with good and difficult for a tour course. My guess is tour players love coming here because their homework is half done for them.

I really don't give a damn about this debate but to say "Have you played it?" holds zero weight is an absolutely bananas. I guess in walking it you can get a decent idea but I find the intricacies of the course become far more prevalent when you play it, and hopefully multiple times to get a full understanding of why x or y works/doesn't.

 

My take is its boring on TV, so was Baltusrol but that doesn't mean they're bad courses.

[nitram]

I've played it twice in the past ten years. Although I'd never confuse it for Southern Hills or Bethpage Black, I wouldn't say it was Derby Lane (dog track in St. Petersburg, FL) either.

[Darth Putter]

 

 

 

Completely disagree. Firestone South is a strong, solid honest course that still stands up to the best PGA pros even today. I'd rate #16 among the ten best par fives in the world. #3 and #4 are serious trouble for golfers on the front. The only strike against it, is that nearly all the holes run in one of two directions.

 

how is 16 one of the best par fives in the world? ... almost no one ever goes for it ... it's essentially a par 3 ...

 

Par 5s dont have to be gettable in 2 to be great. Almost impossible to stop a wedge close when its front right pin placement. If you miss the fairway with your drive its a very challenging layup

 

no, but the inability to get a wedge close isn't a trait unique to a par five ... that could exist for any par 3 or 4 ... missing the fway on ANY par five could result in a difficult layup ... a great par 5 has a risk/reward dynamic to it ... there's almost none of that present for that hole ...

 

There are plenty of great par 5s that are not generally reachable in two.

 

Pebble Beach has two #18 and #14

Pine Valley also has two #7 and #15

#6 at Carnoustie

#14 at St. Andrew's

#8 at Crystal Downs

#17 at Riviera

#17 at Baltusrol

#16 at Shinnecock Hills

#15 at Hirono

[buckeyefl]

How is my being a Texan and Jupiter Island resident qualify as homer? And why is it the least interesting?

Nostalgia and homerism are cousins. You've played the course and have memories attached to it; I get it.

 

Architecturally, Firestone is a complete abomination. This is not a controversial opinion in the GCA world.

 

The course is one long, narrow, tree-lined hole after another. 16 and 18 are the only memorable holes on the course, and I'd argue both are memorable for reasons that do nothing to compliment the layout.

 

We know 16 because it's essentially an unreachable beast with that stupid pond short and right of the green (and the narrow chute where you can run a ball up the left). When a course only has two par 5s, having one of them be an unreachable, uninteresting 3-shotter takes the fun out of both playing and watching.

 

(I don't know about you, but I don't play or watch golf for par saves or 15-foot birdie putts on par 5s.)

 

And we all know about 18 and its soft dogleg left because Tiger seemed to pull a Superman™ act there every year on Sunday.

 

Other than that, I'd be fine if the rest of the property were devoted to generating a corn subsidy.

 

Completely disagree. Firestone South is a strong, solid honest course that still stands up to the best PGA pros even today. I'd rate #16 among the ten best par fives in the world. #3 and #4 are serious trouble for golfers on the front. The only strike against it, is that nearly all the holes run in one of two directions.

 

how is 16 one of the best par fives in the world? ... almost no one ever goes for it ... it's essentially a par 3 ...

 

Par 5s dont have to be gettable in 2 to be great. Almost impossible to stop a wedge close when its front right pin placement. If you miss the fairway with your drive its a very challenging layup

 

It's amazing how many people don't understand this simple truth.

[tannyhoban]

Let's face it. No one wants to play golf in Ohio, especially in early August. If it wasn't for Jack's tourney, the Tour wouldn't make stops there.

 

Ha. Ohio is amongst the top states in the country for great courses and courses per capita. You just jealous.

[CEPick]

Let's face it. No one wants to play golf in Ohio, especially in early August. If it wasn't for Jack's tourney, the Tour wouldn't make stops there.

 

Ha. Ohio is amongst the top states in the country for great courses and courses per capita. You just jealous.

Jealous of what?

[Big Ben]

Firestone is so terrible and boring that we instantly received a major, too funny.