Cage Match to the DEATH: LPGA Tour vs. Middle-aged Scratch and Below

[Obee]

Lpga 2-4 shots better and 8-12 over 72 holes

They could possibly be beat in any 18 hole event but I doubt they would lose a 72 hole event ever

 

I believe that there will be quite a few players in the field who could beat an average LPGA player over a four-round tournament for sure, and some in the field could beat an elite LPGA player over four rounds.

 

Unless you believe that someone who made the cut at the U.S. Senior Open last year (and in so doing, tied or beat guys like Rocco Mediate, Steve Pate, Joey Sindelar, Nick Faldo, Tommy Armour III, Woody Austin, Loren Roberts, John Cook, David Toms, Bob Tway, Mark Calcavecchia, Mark O'Meara, and many others) can't possibly beat an LPGA player over four rounds -- which I guess you could believe.

 

This guy is currently a 0.2 with an LI of the last 12 months of +2.3(?).

[DavePelz4]

They say put your money where your mouth is. I'll put up serious collateral in the form of a dozen KSig golf balls, with free shipping and take OB for the win against the first person, only, who is willing to donate the equivalent value to their local First Tee when OB wins.

 

Again first person only to post in this thread.

 

Mods,hopefully this is OK?

[tiderider]

[Obee]

They say put your money where your mouth is. I'll put up serious collateral in the form of a dozen KSig golf balls, with free shipping and take OB for the win against the first person, only, who is willing to donate the equivalent value to their local First Tee when OB wins.

 

Again first person only to post in this thread.

 

Mods,hopefully this is OK?

 

DP4,

 

I'm interested in what the GROUP of male scratch/below does versus the GROUP of LPGA players. I could shoot 69, I could shoot 81. That's not really the point.

[DavePelz4]

They say put your money where your mouth is. I'll put up serious collateral in the form of a dozen KSig golf balls, with free shipping and take OB for the win against the first person, only, who is willing to donate the equivalent value to their local First Tee when OB wins.

 

Again first person only to post in this thread.

 

Mods,hopefully this is OK?

 

DP4,

 

I'm interested in what the GROUP of male scratch/below does versus the GROUP of LPGA players. I could shoot 69, I could shoot 81. That's not really the point.

 

Absolutely understand that and if you'd like, I'll delete the post and "offer." My intention was to add a bit of fun to the party and if that didn't accomplish it, we'll move on and look forward to the outcome.

[JL1]

I don't get these threads. Since it seems to me it comes down to a perception of how distance affects score, I looked at numbers.

 

This year, the LPGA top average distance is 283. The median LPGA Pro average distance is 256. The first time the top average driving distance crested 280 on the PGA Tour was 1986, with Davis Love III at 285. Larry Nelson represented the median average at 261.

 

If distance is the central issue to these arguments, the opposite argument can be made by saying, "Do you think a scratch male golfer can beat a male PGA Pro from 1986?" I think most of us would call BS on that, so why do we still entertain the notion that a scratch male could beat an LPGA Tour pro?

 

 

I mentioned this in the Augusta thread. The guy who runs golfstats has the data to state that the average male scratch is 33+ yards shorter than the average pga tour player when taking into account only their rounds played within .5 strokes of course rating. I am willing to guess the average scratch is more than 33+ yards shorter when taking into account all rounds.

 

This probably places the average male scratch very close in distance to your LPGA median player.

[Pure745]

I don't get these threads. Since it seems to me it comes down to a perception of how distance affects score, I looked at numbers.

 

This year, the LPGA top average distance is 283. The median LPGA Pro average distance is 256. The first time the top average driving distance crested 280 on the PGA Tour was 1986, with Davis Love III at 285. Larry Nelson represented the median average at 261.

 

If distance is the central issue to these arguments, the opposite argument can be made by saying, "Do you think a scratch male golfer can beat a male PGA Pro from 1986?" I think most of us would call BS on that, so why do we still entertain the notion that a scratch male could beat an LPGA Tour pro?

 

 

I mentioned this in the Augusta thread. The guy who runs golfstats has the data to state that the average male scratch is 33+ yards shorter than the average pga tour player when taking into account only their rounds played within .5 strokes of course rating. I am willing to guess the average scratch is more than 33+ yards shorter when taking into account all rounds.

 

This probably places the average male scratch very close in distance to your LPGA median player.

 

Nope.

[Argonne69]

The median driving distance on the LPGA is currently 255 yards. Given that the very definition of a male scratch golfer is one that can hit it 250 yards off the tee, I'd say that it's fairly close. Scratch golfers get to scratch by having excellent short games, and solid ballstriking. I don't understand where this idea that every male scratch golfer somehow hits it 285+.

[Argonne69]

Lpga 2-4 shots better and 8-12 over 72 holes

They could possibly be beat in any 18 hole event but I doubt they would lose a 72 hole event ever

 

I believe that there will be quite a few players in the field who could beat an average LPGA player over a four-round tournament for sure, and some in the field could beat an elite LPGA player over four rounds.

 

Unless you believe that someone who made the cut at the U.S. Senior Open last year (and in so doing, tied or beat guys like Rocco Mediate, Steve Pate, Joey Sindelar, Nick Faldo, Tommy Armour III, Woody Austin, Loren Roberts, John Cook, David Toms, Bob Tway, Mark Calcavecchia, Mark O'Meara, and many others) can't possibly beat an LPGA player over four rounds -- which I guess you could believe.

 

This guy is currently a 0.2 with an LI of the last 12 months of +2.3(?).

 

Yes, but are these scratch players? Did I miss something, or did the thread go from talking about middle aged scratch golfers to elite amateur golfers with a significant number of rounds on PGA-related tours?

[Pure745]

The median driving distance on the LPGA is currently 255 yards. Given that the very definition of a male scratch golfer is one that can hit it 250 yards off the tee, I'd say that it's fairly close. Scratch golfers get to scratch by having excellent short games, and solid ballstriking. I don't understand where this idea that every male scratch golfer somehow hits it 285+.

 

I know the people he's talking about.. most average 280+.. but as this discussion progresses.. the worse it gets :)

[Shilgy]

The median driving distance on the LPGA is currently 255 yards. Given that the very definition of a male scratch golfer is one that can hit it 250 yards off the tee, I'd say that it's fairly close. Scratch golfers get to scratch by having excellent short games, and solid ballstriking. I don't understand where this idea that every male scratch golfer somehow hits it 285+.

 

I know the people he's talking about.. most average 280+.. but as this discussion progresses.. the worse it gets :)

C'mon Tai. He is not talking about the players in Obee's event. This is scratch in general. Most do not average 280+.

[Argonne69]

The median driving distance on the LPGA is currently 255 yards. Given that the very definition of a male scratch golfer is one that can hit it 250 yards off the tee, I'd say that it's fairly close. Scratch golfers get to scratch by having excellent short games, and solid ballstriking. I don't understand where this idea that every male scratch golfer somehow hits it 285+.

 

I know the people he's talking about.. most average 280+.. but as this discussion progresses.. the worse it gets :)

 

OK, so can we start talking about median scratch golfers? The longest hitters on the LPGA all average over 275 yards.

[DON SVO]

The median driving distance on the LPGA is currently 255 yards. Given that the very definition of a male scratch golfer is one that can hit it 250 yards off the tee, I'd say that it's fairly close. Scratch golfers get to scratch by having excellent short games, and solid ballstriking. I don't understand where this idea that every male scratch golfer somehow hits it 285+.

 

I know the people he's talking about.. most average 280+.. but as this discussion progresses.. the worse it gets :)

 

Dude... that's half the fun!

[smeech8000]

The median driving distance on the LPGA is currently 255 yards. Given that the very definition of a male scratch golfer is one that can hit it 250 yards off the tee, I'd say that it's fairly close. Scratch golfers get to scratch by having excellent short games, and solid ballstriking. I don't understand where this idea that every male scratch golfer somehow hits it 285+.

 

I interpret the bolded statement (which is only a portion of the definition of "scratch golfer" per USGA Handicap Manual**) as a scratch player can AT LEAST hit it 250, not that they (as a group) average 250 off the tee. The primary qualification is obviously their ability to play to a CH of 0 on any given course, and if they aren't able to hit if 250 off the tee then averaging a 0 differential is not likely.

 

** Scratch Golfer

 

A "scratch golfer" is a player who can play to a Course Handicap of zero on any and all rated golf courses. A male scratch golfer , for rating purposes, can hit tee shots an average of 250 yards and can reach a 470-yard hole in two shots at sea level. A female scratch golfer , for rating purposes, can hit tee shots an average of 210 yards and can reach a 400-yard hole in two shots at sea level.

http://www.usga.org/Handicapping/handicap-manual.html#!rule-14370

[Obee]

Lpga 2-4 shots better and 8-12 over 72 holes

They could possibly be beat in any 18 hole event but I doubt they would lose a 72 hole event ever

 

I believe that there will be quite a few players in the field who could beat an average LPGA player over a four-round tournament for sure, and some in the field could beat an elite LPGA player over four rounds.

 

Unless you believe that someone who made the cut at the U.S. Senior Open last year (and in so doing, tied or beat guys like Rocco Mediate, Steve Pate, Joey Sindelar, Nick Faldo, Tommy Armour III, Woody Austin, Loren Roberts, John Cook, David Toms, Bob Tway, Mark Calcavecchia, Mark O'Meara, and many others) can't possibly beat an LPGA player over four rounds -- which I guess you could believe.

 

This guy is currently a 0.2 with an LI of the last 12 months of +2.3(?).

 

Yes, but are these scratch players? Did I miss something, or did the thread go from talking about middle aged scratch golfers to elite amateur golfers with a significant number of rounds on PGA-related tours?

 

Read the thread title....

[JL1]

I looked at last year's results for this Amateur event. Out of 100 teams shown in the results for the event, 1 team withdrew and 99 finished. Looking only at the Sunday gross scores i.e. the so called "real golf" the field in the aggregate took an average of 88.60 strokes per player. OK, so some of them are not scratch players. The OP stated 40 or so scratch. This isn't apples to apples since I can only see team scores, but ...

 

7 two player groups scored 190 or higher. Those groups averaged 95.78 strokes per player.

12 two player groups scored between 180 to 189. Those groups averaged 91.71 strokes per player.

34 two player groups scored between 170 to 179. Those groups averaged 87.56 strokes per player.

23 two player groups scored between 160 and 169. Those groups averaged 82.17 strokes per player.

18 two player groups scored between 150 and 159. Those groups averaged 77.50 strokes per player.

Only 5 two player groups scored under 150. Those 5 groups averaged 73.9 strokes per player. Their average team score was 147.8.

 

The low 40 gross team scores on Sunday scored an aggregate gross of 6,303 strokes on Sunday for an average team score of 157.58 or average player score of 78.79 strokes.

 

http://www.wilshirecountryclub.com/documents/10184/188394/Copy+of+Sunday+Final+by+Net+2017+REVISED.pdf

[deadsolid...shank]

I can honestly say I've never played with a scratch (or even a 1 or 2) who didn't average will over 250 on anything hit even semi-solidly.

[Argonne69]

The average final round score at the LPGA HUGEL-JTBC LA Open was 71.05 (70 players). The low was a 67 (2 players), and the high was a 78.

[smeech8000]

The average final round score at the LPGA HUGEL-JTBC LA Open was 71.05 (70 players). The low was a 67 (2 players), and the high was a 78.

 

Pertinent figures for comparison.

 

The next step is defining a clear way to carve out the "scratch ams" playing in the Macbeth for a fair comparison, so what range of indexes should fall into the comparison group? Anything as high as a 4 CH, or limit it to scratch? I'm not familiar with the course, but 3.0 is the highest index which would yield a CH of 4, and 0.4 is the highest index to yield a 0 CH (given a slope of 132).

 

OP, did you have a particular line in mind when starting the thread?

[JL1]

The average final round score at the LPGA HUGEL-JTBC LA Open was 71.05 (70 players). The low was a 67 (2 players), and the high was a 78.

 

Dramatically better than the scores from last year's Macbeth, which admittedly does not carve out only those players with a 0 index or better.

[Pure745]

The median driving distance on the LPGA is currently 255 yards. Given that the very definition of a male scratch golfer is one that can hit it 250 yards off the tee, I'd say that it's fairly close. Scratch golfers get to scratch by having excellent short games, and solid ballstriking. I don't understand where this idea that every male scratch golfer somehow hits it 285+.

 

I know the people he's talking about.. most average 280+.. but as this discussion progresses.. the worse it gets :)

C'mon Tai. He is not talking about the players in Obee's event. This is scratch in general. Most do not average 280+.

 

My bad.. too many separate hypothetical discussions going on. I knew better stepping into an Obee thread.. shame on me! :vava: :tongue:

 

I agree with anything Argonne says from here out :)

[Argonne69]

The average final round score at the LPGA HUGEL-JTBC LA Open was 71.05 (70 players). The low was a 67 (2 players), and the high was a 78.

 

Dramatically better than the scores from last year's Macbeth, which admittedly does not carve out only those players with a 0 index or better.

 

The average score for the 1st round was 72.7. The players who made the cut averaged 70.4, and the players who missed the cut averaged 75.1.

[Shilgy]

The median driving distance on the LPGA is currently 255 yards. Given that the very definition of a male scratch golfer is one that can hit it 250 yards off the tee, I'd say that it's fairly close. Scratch golfers get to scratch by having excellent short games, and solid ballstriking. I don't understand where this idea that every male scratch golfer somehow hits it 285+.

 

I know the people he's talking about.. most average 280+.. but as this discussion progresses.. the worse it gets :)

C'mon Tai. He is not talking about the players in Obee's event. This is scratch in general. Most do not average 280+.

 

My bad.. too many separate hypothetical discussions going on. I knew better stepping into an Obee thread.. shame on me! :vava: :tongue:

 

I agree with anything Argonne says from here out :)

lmao

[jmck]

I looked at last year's results for this Amateur event. Out of 100 teams shown in the results for the event, 1 team withdrew and 99 finished. Looking only at the Sunday gross scores i.e. the so called "real golf" the field in the aggregate took an average of 88.60 strokes per player. OK, so some of them are not scratch players. The OP stated 40 or so scratch. This isn't apples to apples since I can only see team scores, but ...

 

7 two player groups scored 190 or higher. Those groups averaged 95.78 strokes per player.

12 two player groups scored between 180 to 189. Those groups averaged 91.71 strokes per player.

34 two player groups scored between 170 to 179. Those groups averaged 87.56 strokes per player.

23 two player groups scored between 160 and 169. Those groups averaged 82.17 strokes per player.

18 two player groups scored between 150 and 159. Those groups averaged 77.50 strokes per player.

Only 5 two player groups scored under 150. Those 5 groups averaged 73.9 strokes per player. Their average team score was 147.8.

 

The low 40 gross team scores on Sunday scored an aggregate gross of 6,303 strokes on Sunday for an average team score of 157.58 or average player score of 78.79 strokes.

 

http://www.wilshirec...017 REVISED.pdf

 

Here's some more for you. I have the full bore Acrobat Pro, so I can export that into a spreadsheet and play around with it. What I did was sort by handicap. There were 12 groups (24 golfers) with + handicaps, and three groups (6 golfers) listed as exactly scratch. The total of the pluses was +36, so I went the other way to get as close to -36 as I could. To do that I went in order and added in one 1, three 2s, five 4s, and two 5s, for a total of -37. So that's 26 groups (52 golfers), 12 (24) better than scratch, three (6) at scratch, and 11 (22) worse than scratch, combined to average out as close as I could get to scratch.

 

For those 26 groups their average two round total was 158, so 79 per round.

 

If you're nervous about including the 4s and 5s and thinking that they're throwing it off, here's another way to approach it, though with your standard small sample size warning applying.

 

Scratches only (n=3 groups) ... 159 / 79.5

+1 to 1 (n=6) ... 158 / 79

+2 to 2 (n=12) ... 156 / 78

 

Fairly consistent results either way.

 

Like I said several pages ago, IMO the very best few guys in Obee's field might be able to beat the best in an LPGA field on any given day.....but as an entire field or as a multi day affair, the average scratch man has zero chance against LPGA tour players.

 

I'm curious to see what actually happens on Memorial day, but I'd be happy to bet the results will be something quite similar to the above.

[dmac4g]

We have to wait until Memorial Day? This thread could be 100 pages by then and filled with people that couldn't possible ever be beaten by a girl*......even one who is a LPGA Pro......

 

*Obee excluded

[Argonne69]

Scratches only (n=3 groups) ... 159 / 79.5

+1 to 1 (n=6) ... 158 / 79

+2 to 2 (n=12) ... 156 / 78

 

Fairly consistent results either way.

 

Like I said several pages ago, IMO the very best few guys in Obee's field might be able to beat the best in an LPGA field on any given day.....but as an entire field or as a multi day affair, the average scratch man has zero chance against LPGA tour players.

 

I'm curious to see what actually happens on Memorial day, but I'd be happy to bet the results will be something quite similar to the above.

 

So, in other words, the worst final round of 70 players at the LPGA event was still better than the average score of the scratch and +1 male players. Why are we having this discussion?

 

Jmck, what were the median scores? 'Curious if a few outliers skewed the results.

[sandy]

Everyone knows the scratch middle aged golfers on GolfWRX all average at least 295 off the tee yuk yuk

 

.. I attended an LPGA event last year and in their version of a pro am some of the ladies were put in foursomes with some pretty good golfers (not always the case). The one I followed for a 12 holes had a mid 30s state am champ and a couple of late 30s early 40s scratch golfers. They played from the ladies tournament tees. The pro in the group was Ariya Jutanugarn When she used a driver (which she doesn’t in tournaments) she was as long as the state am champ and noticeably longer than the scratch golfers. Scoring wasn’t close and she wasn’t putting all that well, but good enough to beat them on many of the holes. Really a significant difference in quality and consistency of Ariya’s shots and people who don’t earn a living at golf. As close as you could tell by scoring in those type of events she shot 6 under and the state am champ (who was sinking everything) shot a 1 under..

[nicodywill]

Scratches only (n=3 groups) ... 159 / 79.5

+1 to 1 (n=6) ... 158 / 79

+2 to 2 (n=12) ... 156 / 78

 

Fairly consistent results either way.

 

Like I said several pages ago, IMO the very best few guys in Obee's field might be able to beat the best in an LPGA field on any given day.....but as an entire field or as a multi day affair, the average scratch man has zero chance against LPGA tour players.

 

I'm curious to see what actually happens on Memorial day, but I'd be happy to bet the results will be something quite similar to the above.

 

So, in other words, the worst final round of 70 players at the LPGA event was still better than the average score of the scratch and +1 male players. Why are we having this discussion?

 

That wouldn't include any of the LPGA players that missed the cut though correct?

[Obee]

I looked at last year's results for this Amateur event. Out of 100 teams shown in the results for the event, 1 team withdrew and 99 finished. Looking only at the Sunday gross scores i.e. the so called "real golf" the field in the aggregate took an average of 88.60 strokes per player. OK, so some of them are not scratch players. The OP stated 40 or so scratch. This isn't apples to apples since I can only see team scores, but ...

 

7 two player groups scored 190 or higher. Those groups averaged 95.78 strokes per player.

12 two player groups scored between 180 to 189. Those groups averaged 91.71 strokes per player.

34 two player groups scored between 170 to 179. Those groups averaged 87.56 strokes per player.

23 two player groups scored between 160 and 169. Those groups averaged 82.17 strokes per player.

18 two player groups scored between 150 and 159. Those groups averaged 77.50 strokes per player.

Only 5 two player groups scored under 150. Those 5 groups averaged 73.9 strokes per player. Their average team score was 147.8.

 

The low 40 gross team scores on Sunday scored an aggregate gross of 6,303 strokes on Sunday for an average team score of 157.58 or average player score of 78.79 strokes.

 

http://www.wilshirec...017 REVISED.pdf

 

Here's some more for you. I have the full bore Acrobat Pro, so I can export that into a spreadsheet and play around with it. What I did was sort by handicap. There were 12 groups (24 golfers) with + handicaps, and three groups (6 golfers) listed as exactly scratch. The total of the pluses was +36, so I went the other way to get as close to -36 as I could. To do that I went in order and added in one 1, three 2s, five 4s, and two 5s, for a total of -37. So that's 26 groups (52 golfers), 12 (24) better than scratch, three (6) at scratch, and 11 (22) worse than scratch, combined to average out as close as I could get to scratch.

 

For those 26 groups their average two round total was 158, so 79 per round.

 

If you're nervous about including the 4s and 5s and thinking that they're throwing it off, here's another way to approach it, though with your standard small sample size warning applying.

 

Scratches only (n=3 groups) ... 159 / 79.5

+1 to 1 (n=6) ... 158 / 79

+2 to 2 (n=12) ... 156 / 78

 

Fairly consistent results either way.

 

Like I said several pages ago, IMO the very best few guys in Obee's field might be able to beat the best in an LPGA field on any given day.....but as an entire field or as a multi day affair, the average scratch man has zero chance against LPGA tour players.

 

I'm curious to see what actually happens on Memorial day, but I'd be happy to bet the results will be something quite similar to the above.

 

Take a look at 2016 (same website) for a bit better representation. Last year was quite windy, if I remember correctly.

 

Also, remove 1 full stroke for the extra length we play, and keep in mind that ALL handicaps listed are combined of the team, and are LI (low index) of the entire year.

 

:-)

 

To give an example: 1 hole alone on Sunday (a long 550(?) yard par 5 with a cross-hazard in front of the green, which makes it a 3-shot hole for 95% of scratch ams, if playing wisely) was more than a 100 yard difference. I think the ladies played it at 420ish, as they were 150 to 170 in on their second shots.

 

We will play (virtually) every hole longer than the ladies. I will re-watch Sunday's coverage to get a better idea of the tees they played versus where we play, and will document to the best of my ability. We can make an appropriate yardage adjustment if we want to have as solid data as possible.

 

When I went on the first day of the tournament this year, they seem to be playing the tease similar to where we play them, but on Sunday, that did not seem to be the case. Of course seem to be set up for them to score. But, like I said, I will take a look at the telecast. :-)

[Argonne69]

 

So, in other words, the worst final round of 70 players at the LPGA event was still better than the average score of the scratch and +1 male players. Why are we having this discussion?

 

That wouldn't include any of the LPGA players that missed the cut though correct?

 

Correct. That's why I calculated the 1st round scores for all players above. The players who missed the cut shot an average 75.1 during the first round. The worst score in the opening round by any player was an 81.