I just had a golf trip to Houston this past weekend and played the Golf club of Houston-Tournament course, Members Course and Carlton Woods-Fazio course.
Tournament course I like the best, then CW-Fazio, then members.
somewhere in the 7300 range is what they always had on their card ... but it's a very benign 7300 yards ... most of the extra length is in the par fives and par threes ...
somewhere in the 7300 range is what they always had on their card ... but it's a very benign 7300 yards ... most of the extra length is in the par fives and par threes ...
They would have to play it as a par 70. 8 and 13 are driver-mid iron par 5s. There are some good holes but there are also some very easy holes. It's not an easy course when they get the green speeds up (almost never due to foot traffic) and the rough up, but the work required to bring it up to speed would never happen in a year, not to mention the logistical issues (where are people going to park?).
I'd like to see it at Carlton Woods but I doubt the members would go for that.
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Maybe this is laughable, but what about Bluejack National? I know it's not mature yet, but it was designed to mimic ANGC's style to some degree (at least the no rough and lots of pine trees part of it). And it's a Tiger-designed course which may draw some interest. Thoughts?
they'd have to do something with #18 at memorial ... can't have a 390 yd par 4 finishing hole, unless they shortened it/toughened it and made it a risk/reward driveable hole ...
Maybe this is laughable, but what about Bluejack National? I know it's not mature yet, but it was designed to mimic ANGC's style to some degree (at least the no rough and lots of pine trees part of it). And it's a Tiger-designed course which may draw some interest. Thoughts?
BlueJack National is not in Houston, so you would have to rename it. I think the intent is to keep the tournament in Houston. My vote is still for The Club at Houston Oaks.
"Some emotions cannot be endured with a golf club in your hand." - Bobby Jones
Maybe this is laughable, but what about Bluejack National? I know it's not mature yet, but it was designed to mimic ANGC's style to some degree (at least the no rough and lots of pine trees part of it). And it's a Tiger-designed course which may draw some interest. Thoughts?
BlueJack National is not in Houston, so you would have to rename it. I think the intent is to keep the tournament in Houston. My vote is still for The Club at Houston Oaks.
Houston Oaks isn't in Houston either. I think the only viable option in town is probably Champions.
Titleist 917 D3 9.5* Kiyoshi Black 65-05
Titleist 917 F3 15* VA Composite Drago 75-X
Titleist 818 H2 19* Tensei White 100-TX
Mizuno JPX 900 Tour 3-PW PX 6.5
Titleist Vokey SM6 Jet Black 54* S Grind PX 6.5
Titleist Vokey SM6 Jet Black 60* M Grind X100
Odyssey Works #7 w/ SuperStroke Pistol GT
Maybe this is laughable, but what about Bluejack National? I know it's not mature yet, but it was designed to mimic ANGC's style to some degree (at least the no rough and lots of pine trees part of it). And it's a Tiger-designed course which may draw some interest. Thoughts?
BlueJack National is not in Houston, so you would have to rename it. I think the intent is to keep the tournament in Houston. My vote is still for The Club at Houston Oaks.
Houston Oaks isn't in Houston either. I think the only viable option in town is probably Champions.
I agree with this. There have been Tour events at Champions in the past. BlueJack is way too far out - it's an hour's drive from downtown vs. less than half an hour to GCOH. I doubt they could encourage the casual golf fan from the Houston metro area to make the trek, even if by shuttle.
I don't really understand the thought process of wanting to pour money into upgrading Memorial Park if you have another course that's already closer to being Tour ready. But then again, Ben Crane is a multi-millionaire and I'm...somewhat less than that.
Maybe this is laughable, but what about Bluejack National? I know it's not mature yet, but it was designed to mimic ANGC's style to some degree (at least the no rough and lots of pine trees part of it). And it's a Tiger-designed course which may draw some interest. Thoughts?
BlueJack National is not in Houston, so you would have to rename it. I think the intent is to keep the tournament in Houston. My vote is still for The Club at Houston Oaks.
Houston Oaks isn't in Houston either. I think the only viable option in town is probably Champions.
I'd be OK with Champions... especially since I live literally walking distance from the course. /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
"Some emotions cannot be endured with a golf club in your hand." - Bobby Jones
If they are going to do it at Memorial I would like to see them flip the 9s for one. And play 8 and 13 as par 5s, or stretch out 13. I'd be interested to see what is done with the green complexes.
Titleist 917 D3 9.5* Kiyoshi Black 65-05
Titleist 917 F3 15* VA Composite Drago 75-X
Titleist 818 H2 19* Tensei White 100-TX
Mizuno JPX 900 Tour 3-PW PX 6.5
Titleist Vokey SM6 Jet Black 54* S Grind PX 6.5
Titleist Vokey SM6 Jet Black 60* M Grind X100
Odyssey Works #7 w/ SuperStroke Pistol GT
they'd have to do something with #18 at memorial ... can't have a 390 yd par 4 finishing hole, unless they shortened it/toughened it and made it a risk/reward driveable hole ...
If they are going to do it at Memorial I would like to see them flip the 9s for one. And play 8 and 13 as par 5s, or stretch out 13. I'd be interested to see what is done with the green complexes.
This is all assuming no major work is done
I agree that 9 would be a much better finishing hole than 18. They could stretch 18 out to almost 500 yards if they took out 1 tree and moved the tee back towards #4 tee, but that completely changes the character of the hole. 8 and 13 would be hard to stretch out without some crazy dirtwork, but there is room behind both of their greens to put them.
What I think should be done:
Flip the nines. Lengthen 13 by moving the green south and a little east 50 yards, lengthen the fairway bunker to pinch in the landing area. Move the green closer to the water, or put a bigger slope in front on 15. Move 18 tee to the southeast, making the hole a little more risk/reward if they can take it over or around the trees on the inside of the dogleg. Lengthen 8 by moving the green north. Bring the creek on 9 into the fairway a little bit, forcing them to hit more than a half wedge into that green. Redo all the green complex, and maybe completely redo one of the "boring" par 4's (3, 4, 10, 14, 17). Grow the rough out and somehow get the greens to not look like a hail storm just hit them and it wouldn't be the worst golf course on tour.
My takeaway from the latest article is that Jim Crane seems like a **** of a guy for both A.) Greater Houston area and B.) Golf and we're lucky to have him.
Additionally, as someone who just recently attended the Ft. Worth Invitational I can tell you for sure that withstanding a weather related miracle I would NOT go to a June Houston Open, and that I WOULD attend an October one.
I would love to see it at Memorial but just can't imagine them getting that course up to PGA standards.
They said they don't anticipate moving it out there until 2021, so a massive overhaul with that timeline in mind would probably make the track look so different you couldn't even tell what it used to be.
It would take a massive overhaul for sure but then do you see the city of Houston keeping it up in fantastic condition going forward. That course gets so much play i don't see how they could.
they'd have to do something with #18 at memorial ... can't have a 390 yd par 4 finishing hole, unless they shortened it/toughened it and made it a risk/reward driveable hole ...
If they are going to do it at Memorial I would like to see them flip the 9s for one. And play 8 and 13 as par 5s, or stretch out 13. I'd be interested to see what is done with the green complexes.
This is all assuming no major work is done
I agree that 9 would be a much better finishing hole than 18. They could stretch 18 out to almost 500 yards if they took out 1 tree and moved the tee back towards #4 tee, but that completely changes the character of the hole. 8 and 13 would be hard to stretch out without some crazy dirtwork, but there is room behind both of their greens to put them.
What I think should be done:
Flip the nines. Lengthen 13 by moving the green south and a little east 50 yards, lengthen the fairway bunker to pinch in the landing area. Move the green closer to the water, or put a bigger slope in front on 15. Move 18 tee to the southeast, making the hole a little more risk/reward if they can take it over or around the trees on the inside of the dogleg. Lengthen 8 by moving the green north. Bring the creek on 9 into the fairway a little bit, forcing them to hit more than a half wedge into that green. Redo all the green complex, and maybe completely redo one of the "boring" par 4's (3, 4, 10, 14, 17). Grow the rough out and somehow get the greens to not look like a hail storm just hit them and it wouldn't be the worst golf course on tour.
Number 9 has been lengthened and has a tee where it can play at 440 or so. If you are bold enough to hit driver on that tee you should be rewarded. I agree on 18. I would like to see 13 stay a par 5 and keep it a par 71 for the pros, but the hole is way too easy as it stands, definitely needs more length. 8 just needs to have the tees placed further back and it can be a 480 yard par 4. I think 4 is a good hole but 3 needs more trouble down the right hand side. 10 and 14 need something to make them more difficult for sure. 17 just needs to be played all the way back,and needs some trouble left.
As far as conditioning I assume with a massive overhaul comes an increase in cost to play the course. I'm sure there would still be traffic but hopefully that could help things.
Titleist 917 D3 9.5* Kiyoshi Black 65-05
Titleist 917 F3 15* VA Composite Drago 75-X
Titleist 818 H2 19* Tensei White 100-TX
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Odyssey Works #7 w/ SuperStroke Pistol GT
It would take a massive overhaul for sure but then do you see the city of Houston keeping it up in fantastic condition going forward. That course gets so much play i don't see how they could.
Totally agreed, they would have to overhaul the whole situation not just the course. the grounds crew, the way it gets played, pricing, etc. etc.
Number 9 has been lengthened and has a tee where it can play at 440 or so. If you are bold enough to hit driver on that tee you should be rewarded. I agree on 18. I would like to see 13 stay a par 5 and keep it a par 71 for the pros, but the hole is way too easy as it stands, definitely needs more length. 8 just needs to have the tees placed further back and it can be a 480 yard par 4. I think 4 is a good hole but 3 needs more trouble down the right hand side. 10 and 14 need something to make them more difficult for sure. 17 just needs to be played all the way back,and needs some trouble left.
As far as conditioning I assume with a massive overhaul comes an increase in cost to play the course. I'm sure there would still be traffic but hopefully that could help things.
I agree that if you hit driver on 9 you should be rewarded, and if the green complex was reworked just a little bit, making it even more imperative to be accurate with your second, it could be a great hole. 8 would be a pretty good long par 4. 13 is just way too easy as it stands now and is in that in between yardage for those guys.
I think a major issue they will have to resolve is fan parking, and also setting up infrastructure. There isn't much room right now for grandstands, and there is no locker room. After a major overhaul like this they should increase the price, hopefully decreasing traffic (maybe the end of the 6 hour round?), and giving them some reserves to continue improving the course
I just had a golf trip to Houston this past weekend and played the Golf club of Houston-Tournament course, Members Course and Carlton Woods-Fazio course.
Tournament course I like the best, then CW-Fazio, then members.
Has a muni ever (in modern pga history) been flipped to pga standards like this? Especially in less than a year? And I understand the access to freeways with it being at the i10 and 610 intersection but where does everybody park?? On the actual park? Also, where in the **** are all the spectator supposed to stand? It just is simply NOT a pga tour caliber course. I don’t believe this is possible unless Jim Crane is some sort of miracle worker. Yes the Floridian is awesome but that’s also in the middle of the richest golf club area in the world.
Edit - and when I say muni that is EXACTLY what this course epitomizes. Constant flow of people. A bunch of beat up hitting matts/bays for a driving range. A mile long walk on list starting at the crack of dawn 7 days a week. Close your eyes and imagine an urban muni, you’ll see Memorial Park.
Driver - Callaway EPIC SZ 10.5*
Fairway Wood - Titleist 917 F2 16.5* and 21*
Irons - Titleist AP2 4-PW
Wedges - Titleist SM 5 52*, Titleist SM 6 56* and 60*
Putter - Scotty Cameron Golo 5 or Odyssey Toe Up #1
Has a muni ever (in modern pga history) been flipped to pga standards like this? Especially in less than a year?
Per the article linked in this thread the Houston Open would remain at the Golf Club Of Houston through 2020 while Memorial would be reconstructed. As to the first part of your question Bethpage Black was redone to USGA/PGA Tour standards but it takes longer than 1 year. Same with Harding Park in San Francisco.
Crane is proposing a mid-October date in the fall of 2019, with the tournament continuing to be played on the Golf Club of Houston course at least through 2020, pending a move to Houston's public Memorial Park course following a massive redo. The 64-year-old global shipping and logistics magnate, a St. Louis-area native who made his fortune after moving to Houston in 1980, said he's willing to take a lead fundraising role for that project as well.
"Once (the PGA) says go, we start pulling money together to renovate the course," he said. "I think we could raise the money in a year. You could play there in 2021, if you're lucky. That would be fabulous. We could get something going like (the) Phoenix (Open, sponsored by Waste Management), where you have a big turnout and raise a ton of money. You'd be able to draw crowds there."
Has a muni ever (in modern pga history) been flipped to pga standards like this? Especially in less than a year?
Per the article linked in this thread the Houston Open would remain at the Golf Club Of Houston through 2020 while Memorial would be reconstructed. As to the first part of your question Bethpage Black was redone to USGA/PGA Tour standards but it takes longer than 1 year. Same with Harding Park in San Francisco.
Crane is proposing a mid-October date in the fall of 2019, with the tournament continuing to be played on the Golf Club of Houston course at least through 2020, pending a move to Houston's public Memorial Park course following a massive redo. The 64-year-old global shipping and logistics magnate, a St. Louis-area native who made his fortune after moving to Houston in 1980, said he's willing to take a lead fundraising role for that project as well.
"Once (the PGA) says go, we start pulling money together to renovate the course," he said. "I think we could raise the money in a year. You could play there in 2021, if you're lucky. That would be fabulous. We could get something going like (the) Phoenix (Open, sponsored by Waste Management), where you have a big turnout and raise a ton of money. You'd be able to draw crowds there."
Interesting. And thanks for those examples.
It seems that crane definitely needs the Golf Club of Houston to agree to keep the tournament going for a couple more years for him to have a chance to make those kinds of upgrades. It would certainly be interesting. I am still just very skeptical as to how memorial park could handle the spectators much less have the extreme golf course makeover of the century in even 3 years.
Driver - Callaway EPIC SZ 10.5*
Fairway Wood - Titleist 917 F2 16.5* and 21*
Irons - Titleist AP2 4-PW
Wedges - Titleist SM 5 52*, Titleist SM 6 56* and 60*
Putter - Scotty Cameron Golo 5 or Odyssey Toe Up #1
I’m biased here but I really think that the PGA Tour needs to pass on having this in Houston. This event has a sponsor and a location that is already ready and waiting to host a PGA Tour event. The June date is ideal as well.
3M is ready, waiting, and willing to host this at TPC Twin Cities. All we’re waiting on is the word “go”. Arnie already mapped out the course changes which could be completed in short order, we’d be ready to go by June of 2019 without issue. TPC is already hosting the 3M Champions Tour event so the majority of the logistics are already accounted for as well.
I was sad to see the end of Shell’s support of this event and I would miss the Houston Open but I believe that the writing is on the wall and it’s time to move on.
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and I like the driving range at memorial, go there in the summer three times a week.
Wait, you like to hit those ball with zero compression that go nowhere? I work right by it so i go just to hit balls on occasion( and to see what is going around memorial on the trail) but i dont take much stock in how i hit them b/c the balls are so old.
Wait, you like to hit those ball with zero compression that go nowhere? I work right by it so i go just to hit balls on occasion( and to see what is going around memorial on the trail) but i dont take much stock in how i hit them b/c the balls are so old.
hmmm well I am car less so I pack my back pack with 5 clubs then cycle from the heights there so its handy!
yes agreed you can't take any fact about the distance but flights etc are fine.
Comments
Tournament course I like the best, then CW-Fazio, then members.
FW - who knows
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They would have to play it as a par 70. 8 and 13 are driver-mid iron par 5s. There are some good holes but there are also some very easy holes. It's not an easy course when they get the green speeds up (almost never due to foot traffic) and the rough up, but the work required to bring it up to speed would never happen in a year, not to mention the logistical issues (where are people going to park?).
I'd like to see it at Carlton Woods but I doubt the members would go for that.
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Titleist Vokey SM6 Jet Black 54* S Grind PX 6.5
Titleist Vokey SM6 Jet Black 60* M Grind X100
Odyssey Works #7 w/ SuperStroke Pistol GT
BlueJack National is not in Houston, so you would have to rename it. I think the intent is to keep the tournament in Houston. My vote is still for The Club at Houston Oaks.
Houston Oaks isn't in Houston either. I think the only viable option in town is probably Champions.
Titleist 917 F3 15* VA Composite Drago 75-X
Titleist 818 H2 19* Tensei White 100-TX
Mizuno JPX 900 Tour 3-PW PX 6.5
Titleist Vokey SM6 Jet Black 54* S Grind PX 6.5
Titleist Vokey SM6 Jet Black 60* M Grind X100
Odyssey Works #7 w/ SuperStroke Pistol GT
I agree with this. There have been Tour events at Champions in the past. BlueJack is way too far out - it's an hour's drive from downtown vs. less than half an hour to GCOH. I doubt they could encourage the casual golf fan from the Houston metro area to make the trek, even if by shuttle.
I don't really understand the thought process of wanting to pour money into upgrading Memorial Park if you have another course that's already closer to being Tour ready. But then again, Ben Crane is a multi-millionaire and I'm...somewhat less than that.
I'd be OK with Champions... especially since I live literally walking distance from the course.
Titleist 917 F3 15* VA Composite Drago 75-X
Titleist 818 H2 19* Tensei White 100-TX
Mizuno JPX 900 Tour 3-PW PX 6.5
Titleist Vokey SM6 Jet Black 54* S Grind PX 6.5
Titleist Vokey SM6 Jet Black 60* M Grind X100
Odyssey Works #7 w/ SuperStroke Pistol GT
This is all assuming no major work is done
I agree that 9 would be a much better finishing hole than 18. They could stretch 18 out to almost 500 yards if they took out 1 tree and moved the tee back towards #4 tee, but that completely changes the character of the hole. 8 and 13 would be hard to stretch out without some crazy dirtwork, but there is room behind both of their greens to put them.
What I think should be done:
Flip the nines. Lengthen 13 by moving the green south and a little east 50 yards, lengthen the fairway bunker to pinch in the landing area. Move the green closer to the water, or put a bigger slope in front on 15. Move 18 tee to the southeast, making the hole a little more risk/reward if they can take it over or around the trees on the inside of the dogleg. Lengthen 8 by moving the green north. Bring the creek on 9 into the fairway a little bit, forcing them to hit more than a half wedge into that green. Redo all the green complex, and maybe completely redo one of the "boring" par 4's (3, 4, 10, 14, 17). Grow the rough out and somehow get the greens to not look like a hail storm just hit them and it wouldn't be the worst golf course on tour.
Additionally, as someone who just recently attended the Ft. Worth Invitational I can tell you for sure that withstanding a weather related miracle I would NOT go to a June Houston Open, and that I WOULD attend an October one.
They said they don't anticipate moving it out there until 2021, so a massive overhaul with that timeline in mind would probably make the track look so different you couldn't even tell what it used to be.
Number 9 has been lengthened and has a tee where it can play at 440 or so. If you are bold enough to hit driver on that tee you should be rewarded. I agree on 18. I would like to see 13 stay a par 5 and keep it a par 71 for the pros, but the hole is way too easy as it stands, definitely needs more length. 8 just needs to have the tees placed further back and it can be a 480 yard par 4. I think 4 is a good hole but 3 needs more trouble down the right hand side. 10 and 14 need something to make them more difficult for sure. 17 just needs to be played all the way back,and needs some trouble left.
As far as conditioning I assume with a massive overhaul comes an increase in cost to play the course. I'm sure there would still be traffic but hopefully that could help things.
Titleist 917 F3 15* VA Composite Drago 75-X
Titleist 818 H2 19* Tensei White 100-TX
Mizuno JPX 900 Tour 3-PW PX 6.5
Titleist Vokey SM6 Jet Black 54* S Grind PX 6.5
Titleist Vokey SM6 Jet Black 60* M Grind X100
Odyssey Works #7 w/ SuperStroke Pistol GT
Totally agreed, they would have to overhaul the whole situation not just the course. the grounds crew, the way it gets played, pricing, etc. etc.
I agree that if you hit driver on 9 you should be rewarded, and if the green complex was reworked just a little bit, making it even more imperative to be accurate with your second, it could be a great hole. 8 would be a pretty good long par 4. 13 is just way too easy as it stands now and is in that in between yardage for those guys.
I think a major issue they will have to resolve is fan parking, and also setting up infrastructure. There isn't much room right now for grandstands, and there is no locker room. After a major overhaul like this they should increase the price, hopefully decreasing traffic (maybe the end of the 6 hour round?), and giving them some reserves to continue improving the course
Humble brag? How did you get on?
Edit - and when I say muni that is EXACTLY what this course epitomizes. Constant flow of people. A bunch of beat up hitting matts/bays for a driving range. A mile long walk on list starting at the crack of dawn 7 days a week. Close your eyes and imagine an urban muni, you’ll see Memorial Park.
Fairway Wood - Titleist 917 F2 16.5* and 21*
Irons - Titleist AP2 4-PW
Wedges - Titleist SM 5 52*, Titleist SM 6 56* and 60*
Putter - Scotty Cameron Golo 5 or Odyssey Toe Up #1
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/sports/golf/article/Jim-Crane-delivers-plan-to-keep-Houston-Open-alive-12965634.php
Crane is proposing a mid-October date in the fall of 2019, with the tournament continuing to be played on the Golf Club of Houston course at least through 2020, pending a move to Houston's public Memorial Park course following a massive redo. The 64-year-old global shipping and logistics magnate, a St. Louis-area native who made his fortune after moving to Houston in 1980, said he's willing to take a lead fundraising role for that project as well.
"Once (the PGA) says go, we start pulling money together to renovate the course," he said. "I think we could raise the money in a year. You could play there in 2021, if you're lucky. That would be fabulous. We could get something going like (the) Phoenix (Open, sponsored by Waste Management), where you have a big turnout and raise a ton of money. You'd be able to draw crowds there."
Interesting. And thanks for those examples.
It seems that crane definitely needs the Golf Club of Houston to agree to keep the tournament going for a couple more years for him to have a chance to make those kinds of upgrades. It would certainly be interesting. I am still just very skeptical as to how memorial park could handle the spectators much less have the extreme golf course makeover of the century in even 3 years.
Fairway Wood - Titleist 917 F2 16.5* and 21*
Irons - Titleist AP2 4-PW
Wedges - Titleist SM 5 52*, Titleist SM 6 56* and 60*
Putter - Scotty Cameron Golo 5 or Odyssey Toe Up #1
and I like the driving range at memorial, go there in the summer three times a week.
No way pros will hit off of mats!
3M is ready, waiting, and willing to host this at TPC Twin Cities. All we’re waiting on is the word “go”. Arnie already mapped out the course changes which could be completed in short order, we’d be ready to go by June of 2019 without issue. TPC is already hosting the 3M Champions Tour event so the majority of the logistics are already accounted for as well.
I was sad to see the end of Shell’s support of this event and I would miss the Houston Open but I believe that the writing is on the wall and it’s time to move on.
ETA: https://www.golfdigest.com/story/report-new-pga-tour-event-could-head-to-minnesota-as-houston-open-organizers-face-internal-squabble
Miura 1957 2/4-PW, KBS Tour-V 125 - TM P730 3-PW, KBS $-Taper 125
Ben Hogan Equalizer 53/58, KBS Tour-V 120
Mann Mini - Cameron CT | TP5x | My WITB Thread
Wait, you like to hit those ball with zero compression that go nowhere? I work right by it so i go just to hit balls on occasion( and to see what is going around memorial on the trail) but i dont take much stock in how i hit them b/c the balls are so old.
hmmm well I am car less so I pack my back pack with 5 clubs then cycle from the heights there so its handy!
yes agreed you can't take any fact about the distance but flights etc are fine.