Pros vs. Amateurs - mostly (>90% mental)

[mgrowc1]

Edit - moderator please just delete this entire thing.

[buckeyefl]

There is no such thing as an illegal pin.

 

Did you come up with your conclusion after 6 holes by one player and some conversations from random people? What is their background when it comes to tour level talent? Also +3 on a layers home course is fantastic but not close to tour level.

 

You make quite a few assumptions based on extremely limited experience.

 

Your final point is the most important and closest to factual and overrides your other conclusions

[mgrowc1]

There is no such thing as an illegal pin.

 

Did you come up with your conclusion after 6 holes by one player and some conversations from random people? What is their background when it comes to tour level talent? Also +3 on a layers home course is fantastic but not close to tour level.

 

You make quite a few assumptions based on extremely limited experience.

 

Your final point is the most important and closest to factual and overrides your other conclusions

 

Ok firstly, illegal pin. I took someone else’s word on that and never looked up rules or anything. In fact, it was a junior who plays a ton of tournaments who told me so I assumed him to be correct. I cannot remember exactly what he said but something along the lines of pin has to be a certain distance from the edge of the green (which this was within that) and that if you put a ball down around the hole or drop one (or something like that) that it cannot role more than a certain distance. Guess that is wrong then. The hole in question was a couple feet off the edge and if you missed a putt it would role at least 8 feet away. If you putted uphill to it and it didn’t go in, it would be back to where you started. I am not sure how in the world mine stuck there to be honest.

 

And yes, you are correct, lots of assumptions based on limited experience in golf, hence the post. Looking for other peoples thoughts. To me, tour level ball striking without the pressure of competition appears to be a dime a dozen. However, the mental game required to make it is very rare. I am neither, and far from it so just an observation and opinion.

[buckeyefl]

Dime a dozen? LOL no, not even close.

 

Yes the mental game is a big factor with all else being equal but its not going to make a good player a tour player. Its a whole different skill set.

[tabletopper]

Have to say that this post is laughable. If you were truly a top quality tennis player at a leading D1 school then you would know that the difference between Top 10 tennis players in the world and the average Joe playing on challenger tours is as wide as an ocean. No, it's not around swings, speed, power, etc. it's all confidence, mentality, work ethic, and things that are more difficult to put a finger on - intangibles, if you will. These are by no means things to brush off or leave aside. No offense, but there's a reason you're not Roger Federer even though you speak as though you were better than a guy competing on the web.com - just an observation.

 

While the web.com guy got frustrated and walked off - I guarantee he had no concern about how you were playing or that you were -2 through 6 holes. He was most likely working on things and got frustrated with himself. The real mental midget here is your buddy that stripes it and plays well, but doesn't have the mental guts to go out there and do it for a living. That's a big difference. Hitting shots when it matters, in situations when it matter, when no one is looking. Not some hit and giggle with a buddy.

[caniac6]

The Masters field includes some of the best Ams in the world, and usually the low Am is the one that makes the cut. So, I think there is a huge gap between an am and pros, and I think it is way more than just mental.

[cwglum]

"I was a pro tennis player a long time ago" ... which era ... Tim Mayotte, Jensen Brothers or Marcello Rios long time ago? Random names from different times.

[gioguy21]

this just might be the BEST humble brag thread we'll see this year.

[tabletopper]

"I was a pro tennis player a long time ago" ... which era ... Tim Mayotte, Jensen Brothers or Marcello Rios long time ago? Random names from different times.

 

"I once beat a web.com player" Cool story.

[mgrowc1]

Have to say that this post is laughable. If you were truly a top quality tennis player at a leading D1 school then you would know that the difference between Top 10 tennis players in the world and the average Joe playing on challenger tours is as wide as an ocean. No, it's not around swings, speed, power, etc. it's all confidence, mentality, work ethic, and things that are more difficult to put a finger on - intangibles, if you will. These are by no means things to brush off or leave aside. No offense, but there's a reason you're not Roger Federer even though you speak as though you were better than a guy competing on the web.com - just an observation.

 

While the web.com guy got frustrated and walked off - I guarantee he had no concern about how you were playing or that you were -2 through 6 holes. He was most likely working on things and got frustrated with himself. The real mental midget here is your buddy that stripes it and plays well, but doesn't have the mental guts to go out there and do it for a living. That's a big difference. Hitting shots when it matters, in situations when it matter, when no one is looking. Not some hit and giggle with a buddy.

 

Completely disagree with you actually. Not that I have to justify being a top tennis player but I can assure you that once upon a time I was. In fact, was ranked at the top many years ago. I have seen and played with challenger guys who are every bit as good as the guys you see on TV but just dont have it mentally. Whether it is collapsing under pressure or just not understanding how to play the game as well, going for the wrong shots etc. The pros hardly ever make that mistake and go for shots out of their ability.

 

Not sure how you got my saying I was as good as a guy competing on the web.com as I tried to make it clear that it is 100% not my thought process. Thought I stated that clearly in fact. If not, then I will say it now, I am no where, nor will I ever be, anywhere close to that. I also agree with you that he couldn’t care less about me being up on him for many reasons. My point was that I know a guy who on a practice round is just night and day better than some of the best players in college and web.com players but just doesn’t have the intangibles, like you said. I guess my overall point is that there is so much focus on technique and equipment a lot of the time when the most important thing is the mental game.

 

I can definitely speak to the gap in tennis players since I lived it. Hitting the ball is not much difference if any. If you are saying as wide as the ocean due to intangibles then I am agreeing with you. My point is that there are a lot of guys who just murder the golf ball and will amaze us mere amateurs but they are miles away from the pros, not because of their ball striking but what is between their ears.

[tabletopper]

Have to say that this post is laughable. If you were truly a top quality tennis player at a leading D1 school then you would know that the difference between Top 10 tennis players in the world and the average Joe playing on challenger tours is as wide as an ocean. No, it's not around swings, speed, power, etc. it's all confidence, mentality, work ethic, and things that are more difficult to put a finger on - intangibles, if you will. These are by no means things to brush off or leave aside. No offense, but there's a reason you're not Roger Federer even though you speak as though you were better than a guy competing on the web.com - just an observation.

 

While the web.com guy got frustrated and walked off - I guarantee he had no concern about how you were playing or that you were -2 through 6 holes. He was most likely working on things and got frustrated with himself. The real mental midget here is your buddy that stripes it and plays well, but doesn't have the mental guts to go out there and do it for a living. That's a big difference. Hitting shots when it matters, in situations when it matter, when no one is looking. Not some hit and giggle with a buddy.

 

Completely disagree with you actually. Not that I have to justify being a top tennis player but I can assure you that once upon a time I was. In fact, was ranked at the top many years ago. I have seen and played with challenger guys who are every bit as good as the guys you see on TV but just dont have it mentally. Whether it is collapsing under pressure or just not understanding how to play the game as well, going for the wrong shots etc. The pros hardly ever make that mistake and go for shots out of their ability.

 

Not sure how you got my saying I was as good as a guy competing on the web.com as I tried to make it clear that it is 100% not my thought process. Thought I stated that clearly in fact. If not, then I will say it now, I am no where, nor will I ever be, anywhere close to that. I also agree with you that he couldn’t care less about me being up on him for many reasons. My point was that I know a guy who on a practice round is just night and day better than some of the best players in college and web.com players but just doesn’t have the intangibles, like you said. I guess my overall point is that there is so much focus on technique and equipment a lot of the time when the most important thing is the mental game.

 

I can definitely speak to the gap in tennis players since I lived it. Hitting the ball is not much difference if any. If you are saying as wide as the ocean due to intangibles then I am agreeing with you. My point is that there are a lot of guys who just murder the golf ball and will amaze us mere amateurs but they are miles away from the pros, not because of their ball striking but what is between their ears.

 

My whole point is that it doesn't matter that your buddy hits it just as good as the lower end pros - it doesn't matter. Discounting a pro's ability to hit shots under pressure, in competition, when they have to do it for money is laughable. Watching a web.com guy play 6 bad holes and then saying "he's not that good and my buddy hits it better" is laughable. Your buddy is just another +3 that club guys look up to because he hits it square and long. Guys who are good and perform under pressure don't talk about how much better they hit it than the competition - they talk about scores and winning/losing, because in the end that's all that matters to pros.

 

Your buddy is the tennis-equivalent of being a great baseline game player. I've beaten Federer in a baseline game - does that mean I hit it better than him and play better than him? Does that mean that he's only better than me because he's mentally stronger than me or only has intangibles better than mine? Are you nuts? He's better because he's better. No one cares about the guy that won the baseline game.

[PuttLeftHitRight]

There is no such thing as an illegal pin

 

lol this, but there are recommendations

[ShortStick]

Wow, you guys are brutal. I didn't think the post was that bad.

 

Geoff Ogilvy has said that there are amateurs at Whispering Rock that he can't beat. Geoff is a US Open champion so he can play!

 

We often hear that the big difference between Web.com and PGA tour players are the intangibles - that toughness or understanding the game and when to take risks or play safe. That's pretty much what I heard mgrowc1 saying.

 

Quite a few touring pros weren't stars in college. Somewhere along the line they figured it out. My take-away is that not all +3's are alike - some will remain miles away from pros and others will hang close.

 

And I smiled at the course setup. I was a member at a course that hosted the Champions tour. The course was set up for birdies - middle tees, pins in valleys, trimmed rough. I played a tougher course every week. Nothing wrong with that but I was really surprised.

 

Don't know why I felt compelled to jump into a defense, here. Seemed unfair to jump all over a new poster. Enjoy your weekend everybody. May you all be striping it.

[BNGL]

Have to say that this post is laughable. If you were truly a top quality tennis player at a leading D1 school then you would know that the difference between Top 10 tennis players in the world and the average Joe playing on challenger tours is as wide as an ocean. No, it's not around swings, speed, power, etc. it's all confidence, mentality, work ethic, and things that are more difficult to put a finger on - intangibles, if you will. These are by no means things to brush off or leave aside. No offense, but there's a reason you're not Roger Federer even though you speak as though you were better than a guy competing on the web.com - just an observation.

 

While the web.com guy got frustrated and walked off - I guarantee he had no concern about how you were playing or that you were -2 through 6 holes. He was most likely working on things and got frustrated with himself. The real mental midget here is your buddy that stripes it and plays well, but doesn't have the mental guts to go out there and do it for a living. That's a big difference. Hitting shots when it matters, in situations when it matter, when no one is looking. Not some hit and giggle with a buddy.

 

Times a million here....A buddy of mine is consistently ranked 275-290 the past few years, won a few events on the web. As good as he is, there is a galaxy between him and Dustin Johnson or Rory. Theres a difference in the quality of the ball strike and the sound, spin control, trajectory control etc. Can he hit all the shots? Yeah, but the precision just isn't there, Will it be? perhaps I do not know.

[mgrowc1]

Wow, you guys are brutal. I didn't think the post was that bad.

 

Geoff Ogilvy has said that there are amateurs at Whispering Rock that he can't beat. Geoff is a US Open champion so he can play!

 

We often hear that the big difference between Web.com and PGA tour players are the intangibles - that toughness or understanding the game and when to take risks or play safe. That's pretty much what I heard mgrowc1 saying.

 

Quite a few touring pros weren't stars in college. Somewhere along the line they figured it out. My take-away is that not all +3's are alike - some will remain miles away from pros and others will hang close.

 

And I smiled at the course setup. I was a member at a course that hosted the Champions tour. The course was set up for birdies - middle tees, pins in valleys, trimmed rough. I played a tougher course every week. Nothing wrong with that but I was really surprised.

 

Don't know why I felt compelled to jump into a defense, here. Seemed unfair to jump all over a new poster. Enjoy your weekend everybody. May you all be striping it.

well yeah that’s what I was essentially trying to say. Some people are just clearly keyboard warriors. I read my post again and intentions were clear. It’s whatever, just learned to never post on here again.

[mgrowc1]

"I was a pro tennis player a long time ago" ... which era ... Tim Mayotte, Jensen Brothers or Marcello Rios long time ago? Random names from different times.

 

"I once beat a web.com player" Cool story.

 

Are you seriously reading my post that way or just wanting to be like that?

[mgrowc1]

Have to say that this post is laughable. If you were truly a top quality tennis player at a leading D1 school then you would know that the difference between Top 10 tennis players in the world and the average Joe playing on challenger tours is as wide as an ocean. No, it's not around swings, speed, power, etc. it's all confidence, mentality, work ethic, and things that are more difficult to put a finger on - intangibles, if you will. These are by no means things to brush off or leave aside. No offense, but there's a reason you're not Roger Federer even though you speak as though you were better than a guy competing on the web.com - just an observation.

 

While the web.com guy got frustrated and walked off - I guarantee he had no concern about how you were playing or that you were -2 through 6 holes. He was most likely working on things and got frustrated with himself. The real mental midget here is your buddy that stripes it and plays well, but doesn't have the mental guts to go out there and do it for a living. That's a big difference. Hitting shots when it matters, in situations when it matter, when no one is looking. Not some hit and giggle with a buddy.

 

 

Completely disagree with you actually. Not that I have to justify being a top tennis player but I can assure you that once upon a time I was. In fact, was ranked at the top many years ago. I have seen and played with challenger guys who are every bit as good as the guys you see on TV but just dont have it mentally. Whether it is collapsing under pressure or just not understanding how to play the game as well, going for the wrong shots etc. The pros hardly ever make that mistake and go for shots out of their ability.

 

Not sure how you got my saying I was as good as a guy competing on the web.com as I tried to make it clear that it is 100% not my thought process. Thought I stated that clearly in fact. If not, then I will say it now, I am no where, nor will I ever be, anywhere close to that. I also agree with you that he couldn’t care less about me being up on him for many reasons. My point was that I know a guy who on a practice round is just night and day better than some of the best players in college and web.com players but just doesn’t have the intangibles, like you said. I guess my overall point is that there is so much focus on technique and equipment a lot of the time when the most important thing is the mental game.

 

I can definitely speak to the gap in tennis players since I lived it. Hitting the ball is not much difference if any. If you are saying as wide as the ocean due to intangibles then I am agreeing with you. My point is that there are a lot of guys who just murder the golf ball and will amaze us mere amateurs but they are miles away from the pros, not because of their ball striking but what is between their ears.

 

My whole point is that it doesn't matter that your buddy hits it just as good as the lower end pros - it doesn't matter. Discounting a pro's ability to hit shots under pressure, in competition, when they have to do it for money is laughable. Watching a web.com guy play 6 bad holes and then saying "he's not that good and my buddy hits it better" is laughable. Your buddy is just another +3 that club guys look up to because he hits it square and long. Guys who are good and perform under pressure don't talk about how much better they hit it than the competition - they talk about scores and winning/losing, because in the end that's all that matters to pros.

 

Your buddy is the tennis-equivalent of being a great baseline game player. I've beaten Federer in a baseline game - does that mean I hit it better than him and play better than him? Does that mean that he's only better than me because he's mentally stronger than me or only has intangibles better than mine? Are you nuts? He's better because he's better. No one cares about the guy that won the baseline game.

 

At this point just forget it. My point was clear and clearly people have chosen to read it all another way. I am obviously agreeing with what you said here and that is obviously my point.

[curitiba]

BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PRO AND AMATEUR. YES. BIG FAT LETTERS TO MAKE SURE IM CLEAR!

[tabletopper]

Have to say that this post is laughable. If you were truly a top quality tennis player at a leading D1 school then you would know that the difference between Top 10 tennis players in the world and the average Joe playing on challenger tours is as wide as an ocean. No, it's not around swings, speed, power, etc. it's all confidence, mentality, work ethic, and things that are more difficult to put a finger on - intangibles, if you will. These are by no means things to brush off or leave aside. No offense, but there's a reason you're not Roger Federer even though you speak as though you were better than a guy competing on the web.com - just an observation.

 

While the web.com guy got frustrated and walked off - I guarantee he had no concern about how you were playing or that you were -2 through 6 holes. He was most likely working on things and got frustrated with himself. The real mental midget here is your buddy that stripes it and plays well, but doesn't have the mental guts to go out there and do it for a living. That's a big difference. Hitting shots when it matters, in situations when it matter, when no one is looking. Not some hit and giggle with a buddy.

 

 

Completely disagree with you actually. Not that I have to justify being a top tennis player but I can assure you that once upon a time I was. In fact, was ranked at the top many years ago. I have seen and played with challenger guys who are every bit as good as the guys you see on TV but just dont have it mentally. Whether it is collapsing under pressure or just not understanding how to play the game as well, going for the wrong shots etc. The pros hardly ever make that mistake and go for shots out of their ability.

 

Not sure how you got my saying I was as good as a guy competing on the web.com as I tried to make it clear that it is 100% not my thought process. Thought I stated that clearly in fact. If not, then I will say it now, I am no where, nor will I ever be, anywhere close to that. I also agree with you that he couldn’t care less about me being up on him for many reasons. My point was that I know a guy who on a practice round is just night and day better than some of the best players in college and web.com players but just doesn’t have the intangibles, like you said. I guess my overall point is that there is so much focus on technique and equipment a lot of the time when the most important thing is the mental game.

 

I can definitely speak to the gap in tennis players since I lived it. Hitting the ball is not much difference if any. If you are saying as wide as the ocean due to intangibles then I am agreeing with you. My point is that there are a lot of guys who just murder the golf ball and will amaze us mere amateurs but they are miles away from the pros, not because of their ball striking but what is between their ears.

 

My whole point is that it doesn't matter that your buddy hits it just as good as the lower end pros - it doesn't matter. Discounting a pro's ability to hit shots under pressure, in competition, when they have to do it for money is laughable. Watching a web.com guy play 6 bad holes and then saying "he's not that good and my buddy hits it better" is laughable. Your buddy is just another +3 that club guys look up to because he hits it square and long. Guys who are good and perform under pressure don't talk about how much better they hit it than the competition - they talk about scores and winning/losing, because in the end that's all that matters to pros.

 

Your buddy is the tennis-equivalent of being a great baseline game player. I've beaten Federer in a baseline game - does that mean I hit it better than him and play better than him? Does that mean that he's only better than me because he's mentally stronger than me or only has intangibles better than mine? Are you nuts? He's better because he's better. No one cares about the guy that won the baseline game.

 

At this point just forget it. My point was clear and clearly people have chosen to read it all another way. I am obviously agreeing with what you said here and that is obviously my point.

 

Your point wasn’t clear. Were you saying that your buddy was as good as a web.com guy? That’s how I took it. Were you saying that you essentially beat a web.com player through 6? At least how I took it. I think it’s helpful and useful to compare certain aspects of a great player’ game to one’s own, but to say someone is better than a pro is just nonsense. Then why aren’t they playing on tour?

 

I’m also sensitive to you comparing the gap between 400 in world in Tennis to 1 player and saying they can hit all the same shots. That’s like a 15 handi saying he can make a 5 footer when a US Open is on the line - technically still same shot but context is completely different.

[mgrowc1]

Have to say that this post is laughable. If you were truly a top quality tennis player at a leading D1 school then you would know that the difference between Top 10 tennis players in the world and the average Joe playing on challenger tours is as wide as an ocean. No, it's not around swings, speed, power, etc. it's all confidence, mentality, work ethic, and things that are more difficult to put a finger on - intangibles, if you will. These are by no means things to brush off or leave aside. No offense, but there's a reason you're not Roger Federer even though you speak as though you were better than a guy competing on the web.com - just an observation.

 

While the web.com guy got frustrated and walked off - I guarantee he had no concern about how you were playing or that you were -2 through 6 holes. He was most likely working on things and got frustrated with himself. The real mental midget here is your buddy that stripes it and plays well, but doesn't have the mental guts to go out there and do it for a living. That's a big difference. Hitting shots when it matters, in situations when it matter, when no one is looking. Not some hit and giggle with a buddy.

 

 

Completely disagree with you actually. Not that I have to justify being a top tennis player but I can assure you that once upon a time I was. In fact, was ranked at the top many years ago. I have seen and played with challenger guys who are every bit as good as the guys you see on TV but just dont have it mentally. Whether it is collapsing under pressure or just not understanding how to play the game as well, going for the wrong shots etc. The pros hardly ever make that mistake and go for shots out of their ability.

 

Not sure how you got my saying I was as good as a guy competing on the web.com as I tried to make it clear that it is 100% not my thought process. Thought I stated that clearly in fact. If not, then I will say it now, I am no where, nor will I ever be, anywhere close to that. I also agree with you that he couldn’t care less about me being up on him for many reasons. My point was that I know a guy who on a practice round is just night and day better than some of the best players in college and web.com players but just doesn’t have the intangibles, like you said. I guess my overall point is that there is so much focus on technique and equipment a lot of the time when the most important thing is the mental game.

 

I can definitely speak to the gap in tennis players since I lived it. Hitting the ball is not much difference if any. If you are saying as wide as the ocean due to intangibles then I am agreeing with you. My point is that there are a lot of guys who just murder the golf ball and will amaze us mere amateurs but they are miles away from the pros, not because of their ball striking but what is between their ears.

 

My whole point is that it doesn't matter that your buddy hits it just as good as the lower end pros - it doesn't matter. Discounting a pro's ability to hit shots under pressure, in competition, when they have to do it for money is laughable. Watching a web.com guy play 6 bad holes and then saying "he's not that good and my buddy hits it better" is laughable. Your buddy is just another +3 that club guys look up to because he hits it square and long. Guys who are good and perform under pressure don't talk about how much better they hit it than the competition - they talk about scores and winning/losing, because in the end that's all that matters to pros.

 

Your buddy is the tennis-equivalent of being a great baseline game player. I've beaten Federer in a baseline game - does that mean I hit it better than him and play better than him? Does that mean that he's only better than me because he's mentally stronger than me or only has intangibles better than mine? Are you nuts? He's better because he's better. No one cares about the guy that won the baseline game.

 

At this point just forget it. My point was clear and clearly people have chosen to read it all another way. I am obviously agreeing with what you said here and that is obviously my point.

 

Your point wasn’t clear. Were you saying that your buddy was as good as a web.com guy? That’s how I took it. Were you saying that you essentially beat a web.com player through 6? At least how I took it. I think it’s helpful and useful to compare certain aspects of a great player’ game to one’s own, but to say someone is better than a pro is just nonsense. Then why aren’t they playing on tour?

 

I’m also sensitive to you comparing the gap between 400 in world in Tennis to 1 player and saying they can hit all the same shots. That’s like a 15 handi saying he can make a 5 footer when a US Open is on the line - technically still same shot but context is completely different.

 

I literally wrote in my post that if I played 6 holes with a pro another 100 times I would never get one again. It was kind of a joke and you took it how you wanted to since I spelled out that I didn’t think I was better than I pro. In fact I know I am not. Again, for the 15th time, my point is that golf is a mental game. Lots of amazing strikers but having the mental side is rare. Either way, post was pointless and regret bothering. Asked mods to delete and close threat so just leave it at that.

[golfandfishing]

Man. Take one afternoon off work, sneak in a nap and miss a complete flame out. Sh—

[mjen43]

Golf ain’t a mental game. Chess and poker are mental games. The best players in the world are the best because they physically move the ball at the hole better than everyone else. The brain obviously plays a factor in how we perform our physical movements and make strategic decisions, but the game is primarily physical.

[bscinstnct]

As the Yogi said its,

 

"ninety percent mental. The other half is physical."

[Aaronwilson_95]

There is no such thing as an illegal pin

 

 

lol this, but there are recommendations

 

HOLE LOCATIONS, there I said it

[golfandfishing]

Who gets penalized in the “illegal pin” scenario? Is the greenskeeper DQ’d?

[mjen43]

Who gets penalized in the "illegal pin" scenario? Is the greenskeeper DQ'd?

 

Penalized? The pin's illegal dude, penalties should be the least of their concerns. Whoever did it is going to jail.

[WidespreadPanic]

To me, tour level ball striking without the pressure of competition appears to be a dime a dozen.

L.O.L.

 

Rule 15-3(ii) recommends that holes should be placed "at least four paces from any edge of the putting green," and even farther if there's a sand trap near the edge or if the area surrounding the green's edge slopes downward.

 

Key word is recommends.

[1t2golf]

Closed per OP's request