Advice or General Knowledge?

[raynorfan1]

Agreed. But back to the original comment, "It plays uphill", that sounds to me like a suggestion to use more club since the hole does not appear to be uphill.

 

What if the statement ("it plays uphill") was blatantly obvious? Like it's a huge hill?

[DavePelz4]

So if you were playing with a blind golfer, lots of things you'd say to them could be construed as advice?

 

Sorry...feeling feisty today.

[davep043]

Agreed. But back to the original comment, "It plays uphill", that sounds to me like a suggestion to use more club since the hole does not appear to be uphill.

 

What if the statement ("it plays uphill") was blatantly obvious? Like it's a huge hill?

I mentioned this earlier, and haven't see a response. In my mind, if the elevation change is really obvious, then its not "advice." If its a subtle change, that becomes a different matter. I can't specifically define a dividing line, but it needs to be really obvious for me to mention it.

[Sawgrass]

Agreed. But back to the original comment, "It plays uphill", that sounds to me like a suggestion to use more club since the hole does not appear to be uphill.

 

What if the statement ("it plays uphill") was blatantly obvious? Like it's a huge hill?

I mentioned this earlier, and haven't see a response. In my mind, if the elevation change is really obvious, then its not "advice." If its a subtle change, that becomes a different matter. I can't specifically define a dividing line, but it needs to be really obvious for me to mention it.

I agree with you regarding the obvious conditions, Dave. My technical justification is that re-stating the obvious is not "counsel or suggestion." Similarly, if both of our hats blew off as we were facing the hole, my joking to you that, "Looks like it's playing into the wind" would not be a violation, but just an amusement.

 

 

Advice" is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke.

[Colin L]

]IMO reading something that's already prepared is not asking for advice. But telling someone to read something specific that's already been prepared is providing them with advice.

 

Saying to an FC, "Take a look at my strokesaver if you like" is a breach of 8-1? I'm not buyig that!

[Shipwreck]

so when it comes to distances and advice vs public knowledge, is there a difference between exact yardage’s and distances that are “around X”? If this same hole was X yards as the crow flies but plays XX yards, would it be a violation if player A told player B “it plays closer to XX yards”?

[Sawgrass]

so when it comes to distances and advice vs public knowledge, is there a difference between exact yardage's and distances that are "around X"? If this same hole was X yards as the crow flies but plays XX yards, would it be a violation if player A told player B "it plays closer to XX yards"?

]IMO reading something that's already prepared is not asking for advice. But telling someone to read something specific that's already been prepared is providing them with advice.

 

Saying to an FC, "Take a look at my strokesaver if you like" is a breach of 8-1? I'm not buyig that!

If you have a note card that says, "If the ball is below your feet expect your shot to curve downhill" and you hand it to a player whose ball is below his feet, IMO you're giving him advice. I don't know what your Strokesaver says, or specifically why you're offering it.

 

Maybe you'll buy this: Always be careful what you say/offer to a fellow competitor. Different Committees may have different determinations as to what constitutes advice. It's subjective. But back to the original quip, "this hole plays uphill" still sounds like advice to me, and I don't care if you say it, sign it, or point to a tattoo on your arm that has it spelled out.

[rogolf]

so when it comes to distances and advice vs public knowledge, is there a difference between exact yardage's and distances that are "around X"? If this same hole was X yards as the crow flies but plays XX yards, would it be a violation if player A told player B "it plays closer to XX yards"?

]IMO reading something that's already prepared is not asking for advice. But telling someone to read something specific that's already been prepared is providing them with advice.

 

Saying to an FC, "Take a look at my strokesaver if you like" is a breach of 8-1? I'm not buyig that!

If you have a note card that says, "If the ball is below your feet expect your shot to curve downhill" and you hand it to a player whose ball is below his feet, IMO you're giving him advice. I don't know what your Strokesaver says, or specifically why you're offering it.

 

Maybe you'll buy this: Always be careful what you say/offer to a fellow competitor. Different Committees may have different determinations as to what constitutes advice. It's subjective. But back to the original quip, "this hole plays uphill" still sounds like advice to me, and I don't care if you say it, sign it, or point to a tattoo on your arm that has it spelled out.

Agree with that. However, handing someone a virgin copy (no personal notes included) of a Strokesaver is not, imo, providing advice in breach of Rule 8-1, nor is reading aloud from the Strokesaver.

[Augster]

“It plays uphill” is definitely advice.

 

The wind blowing both hats off at the same time, while obvious and a funny thing to say, “Looks like we’re playing into the wind”, is also advice.

 

Look at the definition of advice. It uses the words “ANY” and “COULD”.

 

I agree with Colin that giving a guy a Strokesaver (a book about the course with course tips in it) is also not advice.

 

The best thing to do, especially in stroke play, is to just not say anything. Match play breaches can be ignored.

 

Side track that happened last weekend...

 

Inter club fourball at our course. Match play. Our opponents have never played the course before. On 6 my partner is describing the hole to them, “It’s a hard dog-leg left par 5. Many of us hook a driver down around the corner.”

 

In my mind that is advice. Our opponents don’t say anything about the advice. My partner is oblivious.

 

Do I have to assess the penalty on my partner because I know it’s a breach? Even though our opponents may know, and are choosing to ignore the breach, or don’t know. The classic, “I don’t want to be “that guy”” scenario.

 

Thanks.

[nsxguy]

 

Inter club fourball at our course. Match play. Our opponents have never played the course before. On 6 my partner is describing the hole to them, "It's a hard dog-leg left par 5. Many of us hook a driver down around the corner."

 

In my mind that is advice. Our opponents don't say anything about the advice. My partner is oblivious.

 

Do I have to assess the penalty on my partner because I know it's a breach? Even though our opponents may know, and are choosing to ignore the breach, or don't know. The classic, "I don't want to be "that guy"" scenario.

 

Thanks.

 

This is where things get all balled up.

 

Want to take that statement literally ?

 

"It's a hard dog-leg left par 5." NOT advice since one could look at the scorecard. Public information.

 

"Many of us hook a driver down around the corner." A little less clear BUT, taken literally, your partner was not "suggesting" anything, he was merely telling them what he and other club members do. Not public information per se but also not counseling nor suggesting that's what they should do.

 

Had he said "You should hook a driver around the dogleg", THAT, IMO, would be advice.

 

Nit picky it may be. But it is similar to my previous story of, before rangefinders, my not being able to tell someone they're 157 from the middle but instead had to stand on or point out the 150 yard marker to them and let them figure out they were 157; the former a penalty for giving advice, the latter giving them public information.

[Stuart_G]

"Many of us hook a driver down around the corner." A little less clear BUT, taken literally, your partner was not "suggesting" anything, he was merely telling them what he and other club members do. Not public information per se but also not counseling nor suggesting that's what they should do.

 

Don't assume everything has to be taken literally. The 'counseling' or 'suggestion' doesn't have to be explicit, it can be implied as is the case in that example.

 

 

 

before rangefinders, my not being able to tell someone they're 157 from the middle but instead had to stand on or point out the 150 yard marker to them and let them figure out they were 157; the former a penalty for giving advice, the latter giving them public information.

 

What gave you the idea that would have been advice? distance is information, the source (or even accuracy) doesn't matter as long as you don't include any 'adjustments' for things like wind or elevation.

[QEight]

"It plays uphill" is definitely advice.

 

The wind blowing both hats off at the same time, while obvious and a funny thing to say, "Looks like we're playing into the wind", is also advice.

 

I hope no ref actually gives a penalty on such a innocent notice. I would not. "Oh it sure is hot" - penalty, "Oh my 7 iron sure goes far" - penalty...

 

Let's give penalties for an advice someone is really offering. Not something someone says as a reflex.

[Augster]

"It plays uphill" is definitely advice.

 

The wind blowing both hats off at the same time, while obvious and a funny thing to say, "Looks like we're playing into the wind", is also advice.

 

I hope no ref actually gives a penalty on such a innocent notice. I would not. "Oh it sure is hot" - penalty, "Oh my 7 iron sure goes far" - penalty...

 

Let's give penalties for an advice someone is really offering. Not something someone says as a reflex.

 

The two you state are just statements. “Hot” likely doesn’t affect club selection. How far your 7-iron goes doesn’t affect club selection.

 

Comments about wind direction and intensity definitely affects club selection. Please read the definition.

 

“ANY counsel or suggestion that COULD influence a player in determining his play, the CHOICE OF A CLUB or the method of making a stroke.”

 

COULD commenting on the intense wind you are playing into affect the choice of a club? Absolutely it COULD. It doesn’t matter if it does or not. But it COULD.

 

Best idea is to keep quiet and not comment on playing conditions.

[Sawgrass]

"It plays uphill" is definitely advice.

 

The wind blowing both hats off at the same time, while obvious and a funny thing to say, "Looks like we're playing into the wind", is also advice.

 

I hope no ref actually gives a penalty on such a innocent notice. I would not. "Oh it sure is hot" - penalty, "Oh my 7 iron sure goes far" - penalty...

 

Let's give penalties for an advice someone is really offering. Not something someone says as a reflex.

 

The two you state are just statements. "Hot" likely doesn't affect club selection. How far your 7-iron goes doesn't affect club selection.

 

Comments about wind direction and intensity definitely affects club selection. Please read the definition.

 

"ANY counsel or suggestion that COULD influence a player in determining his play, the CHOICE OF A CLUB or the method of making a stroke."

 

COULD commenting on the intense wind you are playing into affect the choice of a club? Absolutely it COULD. It doesn't matter if it does or not. But it COULD.

 

Best idea is to keep quiet and not comment on playing conditions.

If the wind is obviously blowing hard from an obvious direction, how COULD saying so change anything? IMO it can't.

 

Edit: But sure, as you say, don't say anything. I wouldn't for any number of reasons.

[davep043]

This thread reminds me of a time, in a individual stroke play tournament, when a friend of mine (Fred) hit a shot that came up short on a par-3. He turned around and said "Let me give you some advice, hit an extra club." He was astounded then I told him he had to accept a penalty for giving advice. We were with a third friend, who suggested that Fred wasn't really trying to give advice. I mentioned that Fred's words were "Let me give you some advice...." and he ended up agreeing with me. Its never a comfortable situation, but I didn't feel like I had a choice.

[QEight]

"It plays uphill" is definitely advice.

 

The wind blowing both hats off at the same time, while obvious and a funny thing to say, "Looks like we're playing into the wind", is also advice.

 

I hope no ref actually gives a penalty on such a innocent notice. I would not. "Oh it sure is hot" - penalty, "Oh my 7 iron sure goes far" - penalty...

 

Let's give penalties for an advice someone is really offering. Not something someone says as a reflex.

 

The two you state are just statements. "Hot" likely doesn't affect club selection. How far your 7-iron goes doesn't affect club selection.

 

Comments about wind direction and intensity definitely affects club selection. Please read the definition.

 

"ANY counsel or suggestion that COULD influence a player in determining his play, the CHOICE OF A CLUB or the method of making a stroke."

 

COULD commenting on the intense wind you are playing into affect the choice of a club? Absolutely it COULD. It doesn't matter if it does or not. But it COULD.

 

Anything someone says COULD affect other person choices. How many threads we have temperature affecting the flight, am I allowed to state the temperature, wind direction or speed? I would say counseling or suggesting requires audience. If just said out loud is not counseling.

 

Decision 8-1/8 "If the statement was made casually, there was no breach. If the statement was made to another player who had a shot to play from about the same position, there was a breach."

[Swisstrader98]

Interesting conversation but in all my years of golf I have NEVER seen anyone actually called out on giving advice and then being assesed a penalty.

 

 

[davep043]

Interesting conversation but in all my years of golf I have NEVER seen anyone actually called out on giving advice and then being assesed a penalty.

I have, as I said just a couple of posts up there. I didn't want to, but it was really clear. If it had been match play, I may have ignored it.

[Sawgrass]

"It plays uphill" is definitely advice.

 

The wind blowing both hats off at the same time, while obvious and a funny thing to say, "Looks like we're playing into the wind", is also advice.

 

I hope no ref actually gives a penalty on such a innocent notice. I would not. "Oh it sure is hot" - penalty, "Oh my 7 iron sure goes far" - penalty...

 

Let's give penalties for an advice someone is really offering. Not something someone says as a reflex.

 

The two you state are just statements. "Hot" likely doesn't affect club selection. How far your 7-iron goes doesn't affect club selection.

 

Comments about wind direction and intensity definitely affects club selection. Please read the definition.

 

"ANY counsel or suggestion that COULD influence a player in determining his play, the CHOICE OF A CLUB or the method of making a stroke."

 

COULD commenting on the intense wind you are playing into affect the choice of a club? Absolutely it COULD. It doesn't matter if it does or not. But it COULD.

 

Anything someone says COULD affect other person choices. How many threads we have temperature affecting the flight, am I allowed to state the temperature, wind direction or speed? I would say counseling or suggesting requires audience. If just said out loud is not counseling.

 

Decision 8-1/8 "If the statement was made casually, there was no breach. If the statement was made to another player who had a shot to play from about the same position, there was a breach."

Expanding on QEight's point here, the following information about club selection certainly "could" have an impact on the player's club selection (after all, he asked!), but the Rules say it doesn't rise to the level of "advice."

 

8-1/6

 

 

Asking Opponent or Fellow-Competitor What Club He Used at Previous Hole

 

 

Q.During play of the 6th hole, A asked B what club he (B) had used on the 4th hole, which is a par-3 of a similar length. Was A in breach of Rule 8-1?

 

A.No.

[Colin L]

I can't get my head round some of this. Is it seriously being suggested that on a particularly hot day, a particularly windy day, a particulary rainy day etc., we shouldn't make casual conversation about the weather? One of the joys of a game of golf is being in good company and enjoying a chat on the way round. It would be a poor do if the conversation couldn't include the usual banalities about the weather, which generally do no more than state the blindingly obvious. Worse if we were inhibited from conversing in the first place for fear of innocent remarks being thought to be 8-1 breaches.

 

For example, I have more than once spoken to another player of my late father's weird but highly effective putting style and even demonstrated it. Is that to be taken to be my advising that this is the way the other player should make his next putting stroke? (MInd you, to be honest, if you saw the demo the last thing you would probably want to do would be to copy it.)

[DavePelz4]

I'm still wondering about the assistance given to a visually impaired person. Is that advice and a penalty?

[Sawgrass]

I'm still wondering about the assistance given to a visually impaired person. Is that advice and a penalty?

I can tell you this: according to 8-1 it is not illegal to provide advice to someone who is not "in the competition." So if a sighted person is not competing with a blind person in the same competition, there is no technical violation.

 

Beyond that technicality, even I recognize that there are more important things in life than the Rules of Golf. Not many, but still . . .

[Sawgrass]

I can't get my head round some of this. Is it seriously being suggested that on a particularly hot day, a particularly windy day, a particulary rainy day etc., we shouldn't make casual conversation about the weather? One of the joys of a game of golf is being in good company and enjoying a chat on the way round. It would be a poor do if the conversation couldn't include the usual banalities about the weather, which generally do no more than state the blindingly obvious. Worse if we were inhibited from conversing in the first place for fear of innocent remarks being thought to be 8-1 breaches.

 

For example, I have more than once spoken to another player of my late father's weird but highly effective putting style and even demonstrated it. Is that to be taken to be my advising that this is the way the other player should make his next putting stroke? (MInd you, to be honest, if you saw the demo the last thing you would probably want to do would be to copy it.)

 

I wish, and in fact have made an appeal to a high-ranked member of the USGA, that they'd simply do away with the whole prohibition against asking for or offering advice. IMO the Rule is intentionally vaguely worded and "under-Decisioned" so sanity can prevail -- but I really don't think I'd be disappointed if people were allowed to ask for or offer advice and we could simply forget all the nuance.

[davep043]

I can't get my head round some of this. Is it seriously being suggested that on a particularly hot day, a particularly windy day, a particulary rainy day etc., we shouldn't make casual conversation about the weather? One of the joys of a game of golf is being in good company and enjoying a chat on the way round. It would be a poor do if the conversation couldn't include the usual banalities about the weather, which generally do no more than state the blindingly obvious. Worse if we were inhibited from conversing in the first place for fear of innocent remarks being thought to be 8-1 breaches.

 

For example, I have more than once spoken to another player of my late father's weird but highly effective putting style and even demonstrated it. Is that to be taken to be my advising that this is the way the other player should make his next putting stroke? (MInd you, to be honest, if you saw the demo the last thing you would probably want to do would be to copy it.)

 

I wish, and in fact have made an appeal to a high-ranked member of the USGA, that they'd simply do away with the whole prohibition against asking for or offering advice. IMO the Rule is intentionally vaguely worded and "under-Decisioned" so sanity can prevail -- but I really don't think I'd be disappointed if people were allowed to ask for or offer advice and we could simply forget all the nuance.

I'm not sure I agree, to me its a slippery slope, like so many things. If you can advise your fellow competitor, can you choose to leave your ball in a backstop position? Do you whisper in the ear of the FC who is your friend, so the other guy in the group can't hear? Can you agree to do it for some guys, and not do it for others? I know, that's another thread, but it gets into a rule change suggested here. Similarly, can you offer advice to an opponent in match play? If you do, do you have to be truthful? I understand that the rule is a bit vague, but I prefer the way it is over the way it might be.

[Colin L]

I'm still wondering about the assistance given to a visually impaired person. Is that advice and a penalty?

 

There are modified Rules for golfers with disabilites which include allowing a guide for a visually impaired one.

[Deceptively Short]

My club runs onee or more competitions both large and small almost every week during the playing season as well as every couple of weeks in winter, we also host many Open competitions as well as County, regional and National ones. In the last 20 years I have not heard of anyone ever being penalised for giving or soliciting advice.

This does not mean that all those thousands of competitors never breached the rule but the level of ignorance is very high as well as perhaps the lack of bravery for calling someone on the rule.

I am interested by the semantics of this debate but the application of this rule in the real world of competitions let alone casual play that counts for handicap is extremely rare.

I would be interested to hear from the referees and competition organisers here how often they see penalties for advice applied (as I am sure if anyone tried to apply it to their fellow competitors, the competition committee would soon hear of it).

[Augster]

I, also, have lobbied the USGA to do away with 8-1. No need for it. Get any advice from any source. What does it matter? You still have to hit the shot.

 

The vague wording is horrible. Example.

 

In the posted decision, let’s say a course has 2 par 3’s of the same length on a calm day, holes 4 and 6. Player A stiffs it on hole 4. They get to the tee on hole 6, the exact same shot, and Player B can ask, “What’d you hit on 4?” But he can’t ask, “What are you hitting here?” It’s ridiculous and stupid.

 

The same rules that apply to a provisional ball apply to advice. They are intentionally left vague. If you think your ball MAY be lost outside a hazard or OB, you may hit a provisional legally. Tons of leeway next to seeing your ball lying on the fairway or the green.

 

For advice, if ANY comment, seemingly innocent or not, COULD influence a player’s play or club selection, the comment is advice. It’s unnecessarily restrictive because ANY and COULD embody nearly every comment about the current golf being played.

[DavePelz4]

I'm still wondering about the assistance given to a visually impaired person. Is that advice and a penalty?

 

There are modified Rules for golfers with disabilites which include allowing a guide for a visually impaired one.

 

One of the wonderful aspects of this site is the learning available to you. Sincerely appreciate the post as I was not aware of these. Thank you!

[Colin L]

I knew of the modified tules anyway, but had to mug them up last summer when asked to referee at an event for golfers with disabilities. It was an amazing occasion!

[LeoLeo99]

I can't get my head round some of this. Is it seriously being suggested that on a particularly hot day, a particularly windy day, a particulary rainy day etc., we shouldn't make casual conversation about the weather? One of the joys of a game of golf is being in good company and enjoying a chat on the way round. It would be a poor do if the conversation couldn't include the usual banalities about the weather, which generally do no more than state the blindingly obvious. Worse if we were inhibited from conversing in the first place for fear of innocent remarks being thought to be 8-1 breaches.

 

For example, I have more than once spoken to another player of my late father's weird but highly effective putting style and even demonstrated it. Is that to be taken to be my advising that this is the way the other player should make his next putting stroke? (MInd you, to be honest, if you saw the demo the last thing you would probably want to do would be to copy it.)

 

I wish, and in fact have made an appeal to a high-ranked member of the USGA, that they'd simply do away with the whole prohibition against asking for or offering advice. IMO the Rule is intentionally vaguely worded and "under-Decisioned" so sanity can prevail -- but I really don't think I'd be disappointed if people were allowed to ask for or offer advice and we could simply forget all the nuance.

 

By "sanity" you mean "common sense". Good to have you onboard!