What courses should be thrown out of the Top 100?

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  • TadWPJTadWPJ Unregistered Posts: 292 ✭✭
    You both have been unable to say why Honors is better. There are 2 good holes at honors, the first par 5 and 12 I think the short par 4. The rest Pete copies himself with the same few hole templetes of his. HH is and 8, Honors is a 6 on its beat days when fairways are dormant
  • nitaizipp15nitaizipp15 Members Posts: 11
    I know a few people who have played at pebble beach. From what they have said, it's an over rated track and should be moved down on the list, although I would keep it on there.
  • Club GuruClub Guru Members Posts: 101 ✭✭
    darkcm21 wrote:


    Lawsonia links course! I know it has rich history but the course is nothing to write home about. Besides the box car hole nothing is memorable there and the other 18 is better in my opinion.




    I don't know that Lawsonia is in the top 100 but I'd vehemently disagree with you. Lawsonia is fantastic, great set of unique greens, nice rolling land, width, strategy etc it's my favorite course in Wisconsin. I'd play the Links over the Woodlands 100 times out of 100.



    My vote goes to Spyglass Hill. The first 4/5 holes are vastly over rated and the rest of the course is a forgettable Robert Trent Jones that plays just like every other RTJ course. If it wasn't on Monterrey it would get a whole lot less love.


    False, Spyglass is absolutely a top 100 course and it is arguably better than Pebble sans the views.
  • duffer987duffer987 I'm old enough to remember a time when Ignore and Feedback worked. Canadian in CaliforniaMembers Posts: 9,356 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Jun 14, 2018 #35
    Club Guru wrote:



    My vote goes to Spyglass Hill. The first 4/5 holes are vastly over rated and the rest of the course is a forgettable Robert Trent Jones that plays just like every other RTJ course. If it wasn't on Monterrey it would get a whole lot less love.


    False, Spyglass is absolutely a top 100 course and it is arguably better than Pebble sans the views.




    Then have it. Lay out your argument for why it is better than Pebble.
  • FairwayFredFairwayFred Sponsors Posts: 4,104 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Jun 14, 2018 #36
    Club Guru wrote:

    darkcm21 wrote:


    Lawsonia links course! I know it has rich history but the course is nothing to write home about. Besides the box car hole nothing is memorable there and the other 18 is better in my opinion.




    I don't know that Lawsonia is in the top 100 but I'd vehemently disagree with you. Lawsonia is fantastic, great set of unique greens, nice rolling land, width, strategy etc it's my favorite course in Wisconsin. I'd play the Links over the Woodlands 100 times out of 100.



    My vote goes to Spyglass Hill. The first 4/5 holes are vastly over rated and the rest of the course is a forgettable Robert Trent Jones that plays just like every other RTJ course. If it wasn't on Monterrey it would get a whole lot less love.


    False, Spyglass is absolutely a top 100 course and it is arguably better than Pebble sans the views.




    Hard to see how anyone's opinion is "false". I know many VERY educated poeple on course architecture that agree with me not even getting into my own background and experience. I'm not a huge fan of Pebble either. Amazing piece of land but considering that it should be much better. But it's way better than Spyglass.



    Also, Holston > Honors all day.
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  • Andrew Bond of GlencoeAndrew Bond of Glencoe Members Posts: 652 ✭✭✭✭✭
    TadWPJ wrote:


    I have 2 friends that happen to be Archies and they have Lawsonia Links in their top 10.



    I'd remove these from the GD awful list- MVGC, OHCC S, Honors, The Golf Club, Scioto, Double Eagle, Crooked Stick, Calusa Pines.



    Add- Old Town, Canton Brookside, Orchard Lake, Mid Pines, Holston Hills, Meadowbrook, Kingsley, Kirtland, Greywalls




    Have you played Calusa Pines? In my opinion it’s the best or second best course in the state of Florida.
  • Andrew Bond of GlencoeAndrew Bond of Glencoe Members Posts: 652 ✭✭✭✭✭
    raynorfan1 wrote:

    TadWPJ wrote:


    Holston Hills is Ross best track in SE US. It's not even close. Tell us why Honors is better? Man made lake and exclusiveness ur thing? Honors has 1-3 great holes




    Uh. Pinehurst #2?




    Yah this is a tap out submission.
  • Andrew Bond of GlencoeAndrew Bond of Glencoe Members Posts: 652 ✭✭✭✭✭
    me05501 wrote:

    TadWPJ wrote:


    Holston Hills is Ross best track in SE US. It's not even close. Tell us why Honors is better? Man made lake and exclusiveness ur thing? Honors has 1-3 great holes

    jerebear21 wrote:

    me05501 wrote:

    TadWPJ wrote:


    I have 2 friends that happen to be Archies and they have Lawsonia Links in their top 10.



    I'd remove these from the GD awful list- MVGC, OHCC S, Honors, The Golf Club, Scioto, Double Eagle, Crooked Stick, Calusa Pines.



    Add- Old Town, Canton Brookside, Orchard Lake, Mid Pines, Holston Hills, Meadowbrook, Kingsley, Kirtland, Greywalls




    You can't possibly be serious about adding Holston Hills over The Honors.




    holston is THAT PURE. and I agreed with him






    Holston is a great test. The most memorable aspects of it in my mind are its challenging length and the incredibly thick and penal Bermuda rough. It reminds me of other Ross courses with a lot of holes that feel basically the same from the player's perspective.



    The Honors has more variety of holes and shot values. It can play long or short. The par fives are memorable. You can earn an advantage by working the ball both ways.



    I would be happy to play either course as often as they would have me.



    Like it or not, these arbitrary Top 100 rankings place significant weight on the overall experience of using a club. The Honors emphasizes its caddie program, and most of the caddies are excellent. They have the extras like on-site lodging that appeal to non-local members. The membership itself is largely non-local and non-corporate. I don't believe Holston compares on those fronts.



    We can argue among ourselves that the courses themselves should be the only criteria considered in these rankings, but that isn't the case. It's the whole club being ranked.




    Not true- raters aren’t evaluating the club they are evaluating the course.
  • Andrew Bond of GlencoeAndrew Bond of Glencoe Members Posts: 652 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Jun 15, 2018 #40
    How the heck did I get roped into this thread- half the arguments are over Holston Hills- ugh.



    Say what you want about the rankings- love them, hate them they are a collective ranking based on a criteria. Without any criteria what are you ranking? Nothing is definitive in the rankings which is why they fluctuate from year to year.



    There are certainly courses on the list that I consider over rated, but I don’t get fussed up about it.



    The exclusive argument is rubbish...play a Pine Valley, Merion, National Golf Links and try not to have your socks blown off. They are epic Golf designs. What the private club does assure you of is conditioning (at least for the most part).
  • jerebear21jerebear21 Don't Go Left ClubWRX Posts: 3,314 ClubWRX
    I give a lot of merit to anyone who pick Holston over honors.
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  • TadWPJTadWPJ Unregistered Posts: 292 ✭✭

    TadWPJ wrote:


    I have 2 friends that happen to be Archies and they have Lawsonia Links in their top 10.



    I'd remove these from the GD awful list- MVGC, OHCC S, Honors, The Golf Club, Scioto, Double Eagle, Crooked Stick, Calusa Pines.



    Add- Old Town, Canton Brookside, Orchard Lake, Mid Pines, Holston Hills, Meadowbrook, Kingsley, Kirtland, Greywalls




    Have you played Calusa Pines? In my opinion it's the best or second best course in the state of Florida.




    Yes, I only mentioned courses I have played, played it 2 or 3 times. Naples National is better. Naples area golf doesn't sniff top 100. Timuquana is much better then Calusa.
  • jerebear21jerebear21 Don't Go Left ClubWRX Posts: 3,314 ClubWRX
    ^^^and he is right.



    A Donald Ross gem >>> over manufactured land
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  • TadWPJTadWPJ Unregistered Posts: 292 ✭✭


    How the heck did I get roped into this thread- half the arguments are over Holston Hills- ugh.



    Say what you want about the rankings- love them, hate them they are a collective ranking based on a criteria. Without any criteria what are you ranking? Nothing is definitive in the rankings which is why they fluctuate from year to year.



    There are certainly courses on the list that I consider over rated, but I don't get fussed up about it.



    The exclusive argument is rubbish...play a Pine Valley, Merion, National Golf Links and try not to have your socks blown off. They are epic Golf designs. What the private club does assure you of is conditioning (at least for the most part).




    One doesn't need criteria, someone might value reward of angles over resistance to scoring. I'd say a simple requirement of reading Anatomy of a Golf Course is a great starting point prior to rating a golf course. Many courses don't fluctuate, they stay in there due to their history, when many superior courses get overlooked. This is particularly with GD, which is the worst of them yet gets the most press.



    Exclusive argument isn't rubbish. You are using great courses that happen to be exclusive. Not places like Double Eagle, The Golf Club, Honors, Calusa Pines ect. See, you value conditioning over course design. Nobody is getting fussed, we are just trying have a discussion/debate. It allows people to dig deep and do a better job of explaining why something is good/great/overrated/awful.
  • raynorfan1raynorfan1 Members Posts: 3,654 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    TadWPJ wrote:



    How the heck did I get roped into this thread- half the arguments are over Holston Hills- ugh.



    Say what you want about the rankings- love them, hate them they are a collective ranking based on a criteria. Without any criteria what are you ranking? Nothing is definitive in the rankings which is why they fluctuate from year to year.



    There are certainly courses on the list that I consider over rated, but I don't get fussed up about it.



    The exclusive argument is rubbish...play a Pine Valley, Merion, National Golf Links and try not to have your socks blown off. They are epic Golf designs. What the private club does assure you of is conditioning (at least for the most part).




    One doesn't need criteria, someone might value reward of angles over resistance to scoring. I'd say a simple requirement of reading Anatomy of a Golf Course is a great starting point prior to rating a golf course. Many courses don't fluctuate, they stay in there due to their history, when many superior courses get overlooked. This is particularly with GD, which is the worst of them yet gets the most press.



    Exclusive argument isn't rubbish. You are using great courses that happen to be exclusive. Not places like Double Eagle, The Golf Club, Honors, Calusa Pines ect. See, you value conditioning over course design. Nobody is getting fussed, we are just trying have a discussion/debate. It allows people to dig deep and do a better job of explaining why something is good/great/overrated/awful.




    You’re mixing two different arguments:



    (1) the way that Golf Digest ranks courses is utter crap and their “top 100” list is meaningless, with some spurious correlation to a real top 100 list. And;



    (2) XYZ course doesn’t belong on the Golf Digest list.



    I totally agree with #1; the Golf Magazine method is much closer to what you want (get a panel of really knowledgeable people to just vote their guts).



    But I don’t agree with #2. The courses that are on the GD list are there because they had the right mix of criteria - including difficulty and scenery - hate the game, don’t hate the player.
  • TadWPJTadWPJ Unregistered Posts: 292 ✭✭
    Raynor,



    That's fair. Do you have the Golf Mag top 100 list? If so can you post it?
  • DoubleorQuitsDoubleorQuits Members Posts: 386 ✭✭✭✭
    Double Eagle

    Old Sandwich

    Yeamans Hall

    Eagle Point

    Ballyneal
  • FiveSixAceFiveSixAce Members Posts: 1,026 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    TadWPJ wrote:


    Raynor,



    That's fair. Do you have the Golf Mag top 100 list? If so can you post it?




    https://www.golfdigest.com/gallery/americas-100-greatest-golf-courses-ranking
  • FiveSixAceFiveSixAce Members Posts: 1,026 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    TadWPJ wrote:


    Holston Hills is Ross best track in SE US. It's not even close. Tell us why Honors is better? Man made lake and exclusiveness ur thing? Honors has 1-3 great holes




    I think you're also forgetting Seminole.



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  • TadWPJTadWPJ Unregistered Posts: 292 ✭✭
    Florida is it's own separate entity from the SE US imo.
  • TexsportTexsport Members Posts: 2,346 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Jun 15, 2018 #51
    Too difficult to sort out - just be aware that public course ratings can be "influenced quite a bit" by advertising dollars spent with rating magazines.. Small budget courses, and those which don't want to play those games are often way under rated - and those who spend are often over rated.



    Further, awarding points for walkability, history, and nice locker rooms have absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the courses - and actually often discriminates against modern courses - both public and private.



    One good source for good course recommendations is the raters themselves- the people who actually play and submit reviews - If you are fortunate enough to have access to one of them



    Texsport
    Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • duffer987duffer987 I'm old enough to remember a time when Ignore and Feedback worked. Canadian in CaliforniaMembers Posts: 9,356 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Jun 15, 2018 #52
    GD is indeed silly, but to the OP, talking about the source of a list is really a forest for the trees thing. All the talk of list criteria really is a diversion.



    I just see this thread as which courses do you think are too highly regarded at a national level and which are not, with this list or that simply as a common point of reference to get the ball going.
  • TexsportTexsport Members Posts: 2,346 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Jun 15, 2018 #53
    I'd call the current U S Open course over rated.



    Likely almost nobody on this thread could best 100 on it.



    You could put 18 holes in Interstate 10 and make it equally unplayable.



    If the best players in the world cant play it - it cant be great!



    Texport
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  • duffer987duffer987 I'm old enough to remember a time when Ignore and Feedback worked. Canadian in CaliforniaMembers Posts: 9,356 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Texsport wrote:


    I'd call the current U S Open course over rated.



    Likely almost nobody on this thread could best 100 on it.



    You could put 18 holes in Interstate 10 and make it equally unplayable.



    If the best players in the world cant play it - it cant be great!



    Texport




    Cannot tell if joking, but...

    Having been fortunate to play some courses that have held the US Open, what the USGA sometimes does to a course and how it is when we play it are two vastly vastly different things.
  • DizzDizz J.W. Members Posts: 14,258
    edited Jun 15, 2018 #55
    I played Shinnecock about a year ago and shot 78 from the back tees. The greens were amazingly good and I made every putt inside 8-10 feet... but I made it a point to pretty much never hit it past pin high. I made more bogeys than pars but I drove it as good as I have ever driven it which helped. I made 2 birdies, 6 pars and 10 bogeys.



    Quick edit-- I have been watching the coverage and it does look to be at least 2 shots (probably more) harder than what I played.
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  • VOXVOX Members Posts: 151 ✭✭✭
  • zer0zer0 Members Posts: 1,555 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    darkcm21 wrote:


    Lawsonia links course! I know it has rich history but the course is nothing to write home about. Besides the box car hole nothing is memorable there and the other 18 is better in my opinion.




    Not surprising this comment has no likes and several replies from people disagreeing with the sentiment.



    Horrible take. Makes me question (disregard) any opinion you have on anything in life.







    IMO, Lawsonia Links is the best golf course in the USA. I've never played a course I enjoyed more and I've played some heavy hitters.





    as for the topic at hand, my answer is Whistling Straits. $400-$500 for a course often in poor shape with a boring repetitive layout and a great view. Never again.
  • TadWPJTadWPJ Unregistered Posts: 292 ✭✭
    Zero,



    Lets say that WS was $75 to play and in good shape. Would that change your outlook?



    Here is my thing with Dye, I totally respect him as a maverick. He just can build 2 or 3 good-great holes per course, but never a ''Dark Side of the Moon" album/course. He does hits, not albums.
  • SilverBulletsSilverBullets BMW Members Posts: 5,913 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Jun 15, 2018 #59
    TadWPJ wrote:


    TadWPJ wrote:


    I have 2 friends that happen to be Archies and they have Lawsonia Links in their top 10.



    I'd remove these from the GD awful list- MVGC, OHCC S, Honors, The Golf Club, Scioto, Double Eagle, Crooked Stick, Calusa Pines.



    Add- Old Town, Canton Brookside, Orchard Lake, Mid Pines, Holston Hills, Meadowbrook, Kingsley, Kirtland, Greywalls




    No love for Ohio??!!




    Canton Brookside, Moraine, Kirtland are all included (Camargo and Inverness are already in top 100). Dayton and Cleveland are vastly underrated while Cbus is extremely overrated. Looking forward to seeing the new Columbus CC (might be best in cbus). I'm a native Ohioan




    Its hard for me to agree with anyone thinking MVGC and The Golf Club shouldn't be ranked. I agree about Scioto and Double Eagle. Scioto is top 100 because it's Ross designed and the history of the club... but not necessarily for the course. I really don't know why Double Eagle is ranked beyond exclusivity. But MVGC and The Golf Club, IMO, absolutely deserve to be ranked.



    Columbus CC would have to have a pretty epic reno to get anywhere near the rankings. Pre reno, I wouldn't even have that course in the top 20 in Columbus.. let alone in Ohio. Flat, not pretty, bland, etc. It really did nothing for me other than being old and classic design. The only people I know who love CCC are the members.



    Blackwolf Run, IMO, has no business being in the top 100.
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  • Petunia SprinklePetunia Sprinkle Future King of France Unregistered Posts: 5,362 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Augusta National. Place is a dump the rest of the year.
  • TadWPJTadWPJ Unregistered Posts: 292 ✭✭

    TadWPJ wrote:


    TadWPJ wrote:


    I have 2 friends that happen to be Archies and they have Lawsonia Links in their top 10.



    I'd remove these from the GD awful list- MVGC, OHCC S, Honors, The Golf Club, Scioto, Double Eagle, Crooked Stick, Calusa Pines.



    Add- Old Town, Canton Brookside, Orchard Lake, Mid Pines, Holston Hills, Meadowbrook, Kingsley, Kirtland, Greywalls




    No love for Ohio??!!




    Canton Brookside, Moraine, Kirtland are all included (Camargo and Inverness are already in top 100). Dayton and Cleveland are vastly underrated while Cbus is extremely overrated. Looking forward to seeing the new Columbus CC (might be best in cbus). I'm a native Ohioan




    Its hard for me to agree with anyone thinking MVGC and The Golf Club shouldn't be ranked. I agree about Scioto and Double Eagle. Scioto is top 100 because it's Ross designed and the history of the club... but not necessarily for the course. I really don't know why Double Eagle is ranked beyond exclusivity. But MVGC and The Golf Club, IMO, absolutely deserve to be ranked.



    Columbus CC would have to have a pretty epic reno to get anywhere near the rankings. Pre reno, I wouldn't even have that course in the top 20 in Columbus.. let alone in Ohio. Flat, not pretty, bland, etc. It really did nothing for me other than being old and classic design. The only people I know who love CCC are the members.



    Blackwolf Run, IMO, has no business being in the top 100.




    I don't know where to start. Columbus CC has really good change of elevation on a lot of holes with a ridge running through it, it was drastically over treed. Something tells me you haven't played there or you were blind folded. The Golf Club is flat as can be besides #7 and #16. The Golf Club has 5 good holes #2, #3, #6, #10, and #16, many others look as though they belong on an Art Hills course.



    MVGC, has the 3-5th best land in Ohio behind Kirtland and NCR S. Haven't played hardly anything in Cinci. MVGC land is great and has been ruined by pond after pond by the greens, very one dimensional and JN has ruined it over the years. It has great land which masks all its deficiencies and the maint whores eat it up.



    Have you played Moraine, Kirtland, Canton Brookside?

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