What courses should be thrown out of the Top 100?

[TadWPJ]

I have 2 friends that happen to be Archies and they have Lawsonia Links in their top 10.

 

I'd remove these from the GD awful list- MVGC, OHCC S, Honors, The Golf Club, Scioto, Double Eagle, Crooked Stick, Calusa Pines.

 

Add- Old Town, Canton Brookside, Orchard Lake, Mid Pines, Holston Hills, Meadowbrook, Kingsley, Kirtland, Greywalls

 

No love for Ohio??!!

 

Canton Brookside, Moraine, Kirtland are all included (Camargo and Inverness are already in top 100). Dayton and Cleveland are vastly underrated while Cbus is extremely overrated. Looking forward to seeing the new Columbus CC (might be best in cbus). I'm a native Ohioan

 

Its hard for me to agree with anyone thinking MVGC and The Golf Club shouldn't be ranked. I agree about Scioto and Double Eagle. Scioto is top 100 because it's Ross designed and the history of the club... but not necessarily for the course. I really don't know why Double Eagle is ranked beyond exclusivity. But MVGC and The Golf Club, IMO, absolutely deserve to be ranked.

 

Columbus CC would have to have a pretty epic reno to get anywhere near the rankings. Pre reno, I wouldn't even have that course in the top 20 in Columbus.. let alone in Ohio. Flat, not pretty, bland, etc. It really did nothing for me other than being old and classic design. The only people I know who love CCC are the members.

 

Blackwolf Run, IMO, has no business being in the top 100.

 

I don't know where to start. Columbus CC has really good change of elevation on a lot of holes with a ridge running through it, it was drastically over treed. Something tells me you haven't played there or you were blind folded. The Golf Club is flat as can be besides #7 and #16. The Golf Club has 5 good holes #2, #3, #6, #10, and #16, many others look as though they belong on an Art Hills course.

 

MVGC, has the 3-5th best land in Ohio behind Kirtland and NCR S. Haven't played hardly anything in Cinci. MVGC land is great and has been ruined by pond after pond by the greens, very one dimensional and JN has ruined it over the years. It has great land which masks all its deficiencies and the maint whores eat it up.

 

Have you played Moraine, Kirtland, Canton Brookside?

[duffer987]

Zero,

 

Lets say that WS was $75 to play and in good shape. Would that change your outlook?

 

Here is my thing with Dye, I totally respect him as a maverick. He just can build 2 or 3 good-great holes per course, but never a ''Dark Side of the Moon" album/course. He does hits, not albums.

 

Maybe if you played The Straits Course it'd change your mind.

 

If I based DMKs work solely on Stonebrae and The Castle Course, I'd be doing myself a disservice by missing out on Bandon, Gamble Sands, and Machranish Dunes.

Similarily, RTJ Jr is responsible for one of the worst courses I ever played, but conversely he's responsible for two I really enjoy.

[SilverBullets]

I have 2 friends that happen to be Archies and they have Lawsonia Links in their top 10.

 

I'd remove these from the GD awful list- MVGC, OHCC S, Honors, The Golf Club, Scioto, Double Eagle, Crooked Stick, Calusa Pines.

 

Add- Old Town, Canton Brookside, Orchard Lake, Mid Pines, Holston Hills, Meadowbrook, Kingsley, Kirtland, Greywalls

 

No love for Ohio??!!

 

Canton Brookside, Moraine, Kirtland are all included (Camargo and Inverness are already in top 100). Dayton and Cleveland are vastly underrated while Cbus is extremely overrated. Looking forward to seeing the new Columbus CC (might be best in cbus). I'm a native Ohioan

 

Its hard for me to agree with anyone thinking MVGC and The Golf Club shouldn't be ranked. I agree about Scioto and Double Eagle. Scioto is top 100 because it's Ross designed and the history of the club... but not necessarily for the course. I really don't know why Double Eagle is ranked beyond exclusivity. But MVGC and The Golf Club, IMO, absolutely deserve to be ranked.

 

Columbus CC would have to have a pretty epic reno to get anywhere near the rankings. Pre reno, I wouldn't even have that course in the top 20 in Columbus.. let alone in Ohio. Flat, not pretty, bland, etc. It really did nothing for me other than being old and classic design. The only people I know who love CCC are the members.

 

Blackwolf Run, IMO, has no business being in the top 100.

 

I don't know where to start. Columbus CC has really good change of elevation on a lot of holes with a ridge running through it, it was drastically over treed. Something tells me you haven't played there or you were blind folded. The Golf Club is flat as can be besides #7 and #16. The Golf Club has 5 good holes #2, #3, #6, #10, and #16, many others look as though they belong on an Art Hills course.

 

MVGC, has the 3-5th best land in Ohio behind Kirtland and NCR S. Haven't played hardly anything in Cinci. MVGC land is great and has been ruined by pond after pond by the greens, very one dimensional and JN has ruined it over the years. It has great land which masks all its deficiencies and the maint whores eat it up.

 

Have you played Moraine, Kirtland, Canton Brookside?

 

I have played CCC. Played it in 2015. Honestly was excited to play it. I've played most of the privates in Columbus but that was one I had not played. I walked away extremely disappointed. It had no real memorable holes. It felt more like a York CC or Worthington Hills than it did some great course. Just a middle of the road private club in Columbus. And yeah, I will admit I did misspeak a bit on the flat part. The more I thought about it, the ridge does play into more holes than I remembered at first. The course just didn't appeal to me at all. Everything about it was just decent.

 

I don't agree with you about MVGC. I think we are going to have to agree to disagree there. To me, MVGC is a course which tests every single club in the bag. One which you will use every club in your bag and requires a full variety of shots to effectively play the course. Off the tees, I am forced to hit everything from a 4i and above (hybrid, 3w and Driver). The par 3's all play very different with different yardages, angles and shot shapes required. To me, it's a very well designed course which not only challenges all aspects of your game but rewards well executed shots and brutally penalizes poor shots. I've played around 20 of the Top 100 courses and I have MVGC right near the top of the list. I only have Cypress ahead of it from the courses I have played.

 

I have not played those 3 tracks. Moraine post reno looks incredible. It certainly looks like it could be the best course in Ohio. Brookside looks awesome as well. I don't know much about Kirtland. For as many courses as I have played in Ohio and even across the country, I really haven't played many privates outside of Cbus in Ohio. I've played Camargo and a few of the smaller clubs (Springfield, Urbana, Lancaster, etc.) but none of the other big boys around Ohio. For what it's worth, as much as I loved Camargo (probably the best collection of Par 3s in the country), I have MVGC ahead of it.... and kind of by a lot.

[TadWPJ]

Duffer,

 

One of my home tracks is a Dye course that I think has potential to be really good. I am more interested in playing Fowlers Mill, Purdue courses, and Pete Dye GC then playing WS. I think Dye's best work comes from his smallest budgets.

[TadWPJ]

I have played CCC. Played it in 2015. Honestly was excited to play it. I've played most of the privates in Columbus but that was one I had not played. I walked away extremely disappointed. It had no real memorable holes. It felt more like a York CC or Worthington Hills than it did some great course. Just a middle of the road private club in Columbus. And yeah, I will admit I did misspeak a bit on the flat part. The more I thought about it, the ridge does play into more holes than I remembered at first. The course just didn't appeal to me at all. Everything about it was just decent.

 

I don't agree with you about MVGC. I think we are going to have to agree to disagree there. To me, MVGC is a course which tests every single club in the bag. One which you will use every club in your bag and requires a full variety of shots to effectively play the course. Off the tees, I am forced to hit everything from a 4i and above (hybrid, 3w and Driver). The par 3's all play very different with different yardages, angles and shot shapes required. To me, it's a very well designed course which not only challenges all aspects of your game but rewards well executed shots and brutally penalizes poor shots. I've played around 20 of the Top 100 courses and I have MVGC right near the top of the list. I only have Cypress ahead of it from the courses I have played.

 

I have not played those 3 tracks. Moraine post reno looks incredible. It certainly looks like it could be the best course in Ohio. Brookside looks awesome as well. I don't know much about Kirtland. For as many courses as I have played in Ohio and even across the country, I really haven't played many privates outside of Cbus in Ohio. I've played Camargo and a few of the smaller clubs (Springfield, Urbana, Lancaster, etc.) but none of the other big boys around Ohio. For what it's worth, as much as I loved Camargo (probably the best collection of Par 3s in the country), I have MVGC ahead of it.... and kind of by a lot.

 

 

Foster's associate Kevin Hargrave did the work over 2 years at CCC. Many courses have been ruined over the course of 100 years, CCC had great bones. I'm not saying it's top 100. Moraine is good, have played it 3 times, it's not Canton Brookside (Ross best greens I've played, better then #2) possible top 3 Ross courses in US (Needs more tree removal). Springfield is real solid, over treed.

 

We can agree to disagree about MVGC, it's one dimensional with high soft fades required on many 2nd shots to hold the greens. No ground game. Over watered. Copied ANGC fanboy holes (ick). The 4th hole is prob the best par 3. #12 and #16 are awful imo. There is no thinking about where to bounce a ball of a ridge/sideboard.

 

Kirtland is an Alison course in Cleveland. Best in that area. It's like Detroit, when people think of it, they think Oakland Hills S, it's the 5th or 6th best track in SE MI imo.

[duffer987]

Duffer,

 

One of my home tracks is a Dye course that I think has potential to be really good. I am more interested in playing Fowlers Mill, Purdue courses, and Pete Dye GC then playing WS. I think Dye's best work comes from his smallest budgets.

 

That's fair enough :) It's just a pet peeve of mine when folks use a course they've never played in a comparison, as you can have all the best notions or hunches in the world, but you literally do not know of which you speak.

If you like smaller-budget Dye, if you ever find yourself in Denver, Riverdale Dunes is a nice track.

[CMCSGolf]

I've played all of the Ohio tracks noted. MV is a great course, not top 100 in my eyes because I have the same criticisms as Tad, but it's fun to play once in awhile and get wrecked with how tough it can be.

 

I played Moraine a few weeks ago and honestly, I found it to be overrated. It looks amazing with the tree removal and and there are a few really fun holes (like the short par 4 7th (I think)). However, the greens don't have as much internal contour and I think it could get a little boring at times. It seems like they wanted to look like Oakmont, but they don't have the greens to be that good. Still a fun place to play, but not in my top 5 in Ohio.

 

Canton Brookside, on the other hand, is unreal. Those greens are confounding and so tough to get the hang of. I could play 100 rounds there in a summer and still be confused. The topography has more undulation and some good rolling hills for Ohio and it has also benefited from removing trees. In my eyes, this is the best course I have played in Ohio (haven't been to Camargo or The Golf Club) mostly because the greens are so good and that is what makes the game interesting. The pin position can dictate how you play all of the previous shots on a hole and that is something I didn't feel at Moraine.

[SilverBullets]

I have played CCC. Played it in 2015. Honestly was excited to play it. I've played most of the privates in Columbus but that was one I had not played. I walked away extremely disappointed. It had no real memorable holes. It felt more like a York CC or Worthington Hills than it did some great course. Just a middle of the road private club in Columbus. And yeah, I will admit I did misspeak a bit on the flat part. The more I thought about it, the ridge does play into more holes than I remembered at first. The course just didn't appeal to me at all. Everything about it was just decent.

 

I don't agree with you about MVGC. I think we are going to have to agree to disagree there. To me, MVGC is a course which tests every single club in the bag. One which you will use every club in your bag and requires a full variety of shots to effectively play the course. Off the tees, I am forced to hit everything from a 4i and above (hybrid, 3w and Driver). The par 3's all play very different with different yardages, angles and shot shapes required. To me, it's a very well designed course which not only challenges all aspects of your game but rewards well executed shots and brutally penalizes poor shots. I've played around 20 of the Top 100 courses and I have MVGC right near the top of the list. I only have Cypress ahead of it from the courses I have played.

 

I have not played those 3 tracks. Moraine post reno looks incredible. It certainly looks like it could be the best course in Ohio. Brookside looks awesome as well. I don't know much about Kirtland. For as many courses as I have played in Ohio and even across the country, I really haven't played many privates outside of Cbus in Ohio. I've played Camargo and a few of the smaller clubs (Springfield, Urbana, Lancaster, etc.) but none of the other big boys around Ohio. For what it's worth, as much as I loved Camargo (probably the best collection of Par 3s in the country), I have MVGC ahead of it.... and kind of by a lot.

 

 

Foster's associate Kevin Hargrave did the work over 2 years at CCC. Many courses have been ruined over the course of 100 years, CCC had great bones. I'm not saying it's top 100. Moraine is good, have played it 3 times, it's not Canton Brookside (Ross best greens I've played, better then #2) possible top 3 Ross courses in US (Needs more tree removal). Springfield is real solid, over treed.

 

We can agree to disagree about MVGC, it's one dimensional with high soft fades required on many 2nd shots to hold the greens. No ground game. Over watered. Copied ANGC fanboy holes (ick). The 4th hole is prob the best par 3. #12 and #16 are awful imo. There is no thinking about where to bounce a ball of a ridge/sideboard.

 

Kirtland is an Alison course in Cleveland. Best in that area. It's like Detroit, when people think of it, they think Oakland Hills S, it's the 5th or 6th best track in SE MI imo.

 

16 at MVGC feels out of place. Its the wrong hole for that course. When you're standing on the 16th green at MVGC it feels like you are no longer playing MVGC. The old 16th hole wasn't much better but at least it fit the course.

 

For what Springfield is, it's a good little course. Over treed is putting it lightly lol but I enjoyed that track.

 

Ill have to get back out on CCC when I am back in Columbus sometime post reno.

[SilverBullets]

I've played all of the Ohio tracks noted. MV is a great course, not top 100 in my eyes because I have the same criticisms as Tad, but it's fun to play once in awhile and get wrecked with how tough it can be.

 

I played Moraine a few weeks ago and honestly, I found it to be overrated. It looks amazing with the tree removal and and there are a few really fun holes (like the short par 4 7th (I think)). However, the greens don't have as much internal contour and I think it could get a little boring at times. It seems like they wanted to look like Oakmont, but they don't have the greens to be that good. Still a fun place to play, but not in my top 5 in Ohio.

 

Canton Brookside, on the other hand, is unreal. Those greens are confounding and so tough to get the hang of. I could play 100 rounds there in a summer and still be confused. The topography has more undulation and some good rolling hills for Ohio and it has also benefited from removing trees. In my eyes, this is the best course I have played in Ohio (haven't been to Camargo or The Golf Club) mostly because the greens are so good and that is what makes the game interesting. The pin position can dictate how you play all of the previous shots on a hole and that is something I didn't feel at Moraine.

 

Camargo is a really cool place. I have that as my second favorite in Ohio (granted I haven't played Canton Brookside (I find it funny there is a Columbus Brookside as well.. which is a very solid track in it's own right)), Moraine, etc.). The Par 3s at Camargo are seriously great holes. I love the look of the squared greens Raynor uses and I like the flat bunkers which they redid. Its the only Raynor track I have played and I really like some of the unique features/traits he utilized.

 

Others on here are talking about Dye, so I'll weigh in there as well. The only Dye courses I have played which I like are The Golf Club and The Ocean Course. I don't think The Ocean Course is top 20 or whatever it's ranked but I do enjoy most all of that course. I wasn't a huge fan of Whistling but I get it's ranking. I didn't like Blackwolf Run at all. It's a great plot of land, I just wish someone other than Dye had done the work there. Couple of the holes there I thought were really great and others I thought were absolutely terrible. That kind of sums up Dye for me. I either love his course or hate his course. Unfortunately, I mostly find myself not liking them.

 

I'm still owed a trip to the Pete Dye Club. Ive heard nothing but great things about it. I'll hopefully be there in the next couple of seasons.

[TadWPJ]

I've played all of the Ohio tracks noted. MV is a great course, not top 100 in my eyes because I have the same criticisms as Tad, but it's fun to play once in awhile and get wrecked with how tough it can be.

 

I played Moraine a few weeks ago and honestly, I found it to be overrated. It looks amazing with the tree removal and and there are a few really fun holes (like the short par 4 7th (I think)). However, the greens don't have as much internal contour and I think it could get a little boring at times. It seems like they wanted to look like Oakmont, but they don't have the greens to be that good. Still a fun place to play, but not in my top 5 in Ohio.

 

Canton Brookside, on the other hand, is unreal. Those greens are confounding and so tough to get the hang of. I could play 100 rounds there in a summer and still be confused. The topography has more undulation and some good rolling hills for Ohio and it has also benefited from removing trees. In my eyes, this is the best course I have played in Ohio (haven't been to Camargo or The Golf Club) mostly because the greens are so good and that is what makes the game interesting. The pin position can dictate how you play all of the previous shots on a hole and that is something I didn't feel at Moraine.

 

CMCS,

 

I agree partially with you about Moraine, my kitchen table has more movement then those greens. #10 is a real solid hole, but #11 and #12 lack any interest imo. I still have it in my top Ohio Top 5.

 

I think Canton Brookside can be even better with more tree removal. Also the new Inverness I'll play later this year, looks unreal. Those greens are really good, now the Faz holes are gone. I haven't played Camargo, was supposed to last year, and might this fall. I'd put it in Top 5 in Ohio, because so many of my well traveled friends think it's great.

 

Canton Brookside, Inverness, Moraine, Camargo *, and Kirtland- The fab 5

 

What is your Ohio Top 5?

[CMCSGolf]

I've played all of the Ohio tracks noted. MV is a great course, not top 100 in my eyes because I have the same criticisms as Tad, but it's fun to play once in awhile and get wrecked with how tough it can be.

 

I played Moraine a few weeks ago and honestly, I found it to be overrated. It looks amazing with the tree removal and and there are a few really fun holes (like the short par 4 7th (I think)). However, the greens don't have as much internal contour and I think it could get a little boring at times. It seems like they wanted to look like Oakmont, but they don't have the greens to be that good. Still a fun place to play, but not in my top 5 in Ohio.

 

Canton Brookside, on the other hand, is unreal. Those greens are confounding and so tough to get the hang of. I could play 100 rounds there in a summer and still be confused. The topography has more undulation and some good rolling hills for Ohio and it has also benefited from removing trees. In my eyes, this is the best course I have played in Ohio (haven't been to Camargo or The Golf Club) mostly because the greens are so good and that is what makes the game interesting. The pin position can dictate how you play all of the previous shots on a hole and that is something I didn't feel at Moraine.

 

CMCS,

 

I agree partially with you about Moraine, my kitchen table has more movement then those greens. #10 is a real solid hole, but #11 and #12 lack any interest imo. I still have it in my top Ohio Top 5.

 

I think Canton Brookside can be even better with more tree removal. Also the new Inverness I'll play later this year, looks unreal. Those greens are really good, now the Faz holes are gone. I haven't played Camargo, was supposed to last year, and might this fall. I'd put it in Top 5 in Ohio, because so many of my well traveled friends think it's great.

 

Canton Brookside, Inverness, Moraine, Camargo *, and Kirtland- The fab 5

 

What is your Ohio Top 5?

 

Interesting comment about Moraine. I thought 10 was a very average hole with a mildly interesting green. The shaved area on the left side presents some tough chips. 10-12 are on pretty much dead flat land, so they don't have a lot going for them. I only had 1 round there, so I'm not 100% confident in any opinion I had, but I'd love to hear why you like that hole? I'm also excited to see the new Inverness. I played the old version 2 years ago and those Fazio holes could not have looked more out of place.

 

My top 5 in Ohio (that I've played, notable exceptions are Camargo, Double Eagle, and The Golf Club) would be Canton Brookside, Kirtland, Canterbury, Inverness, and I'll throw a wild card in there with Sleepy Hollow. Honestly, it is not a top 5 course now as it sits, but if someone spent $3M on it to put it in Country Club shape, it would be one of the 50 best publics in America. The land is good and the Stanley Thompson greens are great. Perhaps a little too much tilt for modern green speeds, but there are a lot of great holes out there.

[zer0]

Zero,

 

Lets say that WS was $75 to play and in good shape. Would that change your outlook?

 

Here is my thing with Dye, I totally respect him as a maverick. He just can build 2 or 3 good-great holes per course, but never a ''Dark Side of the Moon" album/course. He does hits, not albums.

 

 

It would definitely change my outlook in terms of wanting to play there again. But, I still wouldn't include it in a top 100. Played it twice and can only remember a couple holes as standing out. And the conditioning of the greenside bunkers is inexcusable at $75, let alone the $400 they charge.

 

But the view is nice.

[FairwayFred]

Interesting comments about Moraine and the greens there. I've played out there ALOT and I disagree with both of you. The greens have plenty of slope and contour and when fast they are flat out NASTY. And what an amazing unique piece of land. 10-12 definitely on a flat part of the land but 10 has one of the most unique green complexs you will ever see with the half pipe around it. 11 is nothing special but a good hole and 12 is a good long 3. But the rest of the course is out of this world good imo it's MY favorite course in Ohio. The variety of hole lengths and looks is my favorite part about the course. You need your whole game at Moraine. Canton Brookside being second LOVE the greens but the rest of the course at Moraine is just better. Also agree Columbus golf is totally over rated easily the most over rated golf city in America.

[TadWPJ]

The greens have to be running 12 for Moraine to have any flavor on the greens and that doesn't cut it for me. The green tie ins are blah. The funny thing is NCR S it's neighbor actually has way better land though the design isn't anywhere close. Moraine has great short par 4's and few really good stout par 4's. 4 and 13 are solid par 5's. They also should have seeded kentucky blue in rough instead of tall fescue.

 

Canton Brookside hasn't reached it's full potential imo. Holes 7-9 is outstanding. The natural green pad on #4 and #16 is great. The course needs way more tree removal and to regrass imo. Opening hole is amazing. Par 3's and par 5's are superior at Canton Brookside. A few misplaced bunkers at Brookside, but nothing that can't be fixed.

[TadWPJ]

Double Eagle

Old Sandwich

Yeamans Hall

Eagle Point

Ballyneal

 

Thanks for posting. I hope to play Yeamans Hall in November. Have heard great things, what didn't you like? Also Ballyneal is on my future radar, what didn't you like about it?

[raynorfan1]

Double Eagle

Old Sandwich

Yeamans Hall

Eagle Point

Ballyneal

 

I can’t see that there are 100 better courses than Old Sandwich.

 

I could believe that Coore & Crenshaw just isn’t your cup of tea and that there are 100 courses that you like more...but I think you’d be an outlier.

[oldschoolrocker]

Double Eagle

Old Sandwich

Yeamans Hall

Eagle Point

Ballyneal

 

Thanks for posting. I hope to play Yeamans Hall in November. Have heard great things, what didn't you like? Also Ballyneal is on my future radar, what didn't you like about it?

 

The recent issues at Yeamans have been addressed and the course should be in fine form come November.

[FairwayFred]

The greens have to be running 12 for Moraine to have any flavor on the greens and that doesn't cut it for me. The green tie ins are blah. The funny thing is NCR S it's neighbor actually has way better land though the design isn't anywhere close. Moraine has great short par 4's and few really good stout par 4's. 4 and 13 are solid par 5's. They also should have seeded kentucky blue in rough instead of tall fescue.

 

Canton Brookside hasn't reached it's full potential imo. Holes 7-9 is outstanding. The natural green pad on #4 and #16 is great. The course needs way more tree removal and to regrass imo. Opening hole is amazing. Par 3's and par 5's are superior at Canton Brookside. A few misplaced bunkers at Brookside, but nothing that can't be fixed.

 

Again I couldn't disagree more. And the tie ins on the greens are one of the best things about the course. The green straight to tee cut that they have out there on numerous holes are amazing, old school and very unique. And the greens have a ton of slope there isn't a flat one in the bunch. They don't have a ton of major micro undulations or big slopes on the inside of the greens like a Doak green but are more old style with greens that tilt hard. I think you need a few more plays. (also the rough isn't fescue only the native areas are)

[TadWPJ]

I've played Moraine in the Spring, summer, and fall (3 times) I have enough plays under my belt and the staff is great. Couldn't disagree more with you more regarding tie ins, redundant. What greens have slope, 18? I think Moraine is top 100 and top 3 or 4 in Ohio, but there are just as many people who think its overrated as the ones that gush over it. I don't know why Doak's name came up, the greens aren't anywhere near as good as Canterbury or Inverness. The rough is cut tall fescue, the native is fine fescue.

[CMCSGolf]

It's good to see the other side of the argument Fred, glad you posted your thoughts. I agree with you that the tie ins look great. I think the entire course looks wonderful, but I feel it lacks depth. As I said, with only one round there, hard to be too confident. I like the green on 10, but the rest of the hole has minimal thought or strategy. Going from my memory, it seemed like a lot of the greens had big long slopes, rather than more defined smaller slopes that move in several directions.

 

This may be preference, but I prefer the micro contours. I think this is why I rate Canterbury higher than most. Those greens are vexing and it's not uncommon to have short putts with 2 breaks. I love watching a bump and run or lag putt wind it's way to the hole and I didn't get that at Moraine. Another thing that struck me about Moraine is how tough the rough was. I tried not to consider that when judging the course, but the rough was so thick (not even that long) that I could not hit a 7 iron or lower out of it. That would be tough to deal with if I were a member.

[Stetson]

I’m surprised no one has said Doral or Harbour Town

[TadWPJ]

It's also what you define tie ins, was just having a conversation with a friend of mine regarding it. I think the bunker and green tie ins are solid at Moraine. There is no other nuances around the greens at Moraine such as small mounds and greens built a little higher on one side of the green like Canterbury which I consider tie ins as well. Canterbury has great greens but a few weak holes that hold it back, like #3 and #18 is overrated. It looks much improved with Hepner's work, though i don't like the fescue lined bunkers in heavy clay soil. Best holes are #4, #9, #12, #16 imo.

[youfromjoisey]

Too difficult to sort out - just be aware that public course ratings can be "influenced quite a bit" by advertising dollars spent with rating magazines.. Small budget courses, and those which don't want to play those games are often way under rated - and those who spend are often over rated.

 

Further, awarding points for walkability, history, and nice locker rooms have absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the courses - and actually often discriminates against modern courses - both public and private.

 

Texsport

 

Exactly. Same discussions in ski forums regarding rankings of ski resorts by the big skiing magazines. Some places that do not advertise in the mags and are great are poorly ranked and others that spend $ advertising are ranked high to the dismay of hard core skiers. The mags also rank aspects high for non-skiing criteria such as grooming (hard cores don't want groomed runs), food, apres ski, etc. Hard core skiers care mostly about terrain and snow and are pissed that a place like Vail or Deer Valley is ranked and Snowbird & Alta get no love.

[FairwayFred]

I've played Moraine in the Spring, summer, and fall (3 times) I have enough plays under my belt and the staff is great. Couldn't disagree more with you more regarding tie ins, redundant. What greens have slope, 18? I think Moraine is top 100 and top 3 or 4 in Ohio, but there are just as many people who think its overrated as the ones that gush over it. I don't know why Doak's name came up, the greens aren't anywhere near as good as Canterbury or Inverness. The rough is cut tall fescue, the native is fine fescue.

 

All the greens have slope. Alot of it is from back to front and one side or the other but to say the greens are flat and have no slope is ridiculous. Off the top of my head,

1 slopes back to front and left to right (just like the land) and has a great fall off tight mown chipping area to the left.

2 slopes very severely from back to front and a little right to left like the Eden green that inspired it.

3 slopes back to front and left to right with a severe spine running through the middle vertically. Miss left and no chance to stop your ball.

4 slopes back to front and left to right

5 slopes back to front and has a little diagnal ridge in it.

6 is a little flatter and perched up on a hill but has another diagnal edge running through it.

7 slopes left to right and back to front off the hill

8 has a ton of internal contour, 3 tiers a little like a double plateau

9 has high edges and a low middle with a really cool raised back left portion

10 is an extension of the fairway in front but slopes right to left and has an extremely cool and unique surround feature all the way around

11 slopes back to front and right to left especially on the left side

12 slopes hard back to front and has decent internal contour

13 slopes hard back to front and left to right

14 falls off front and back but generally slopes hard back to front and left to right with a really cool short grass chipping area left built into the hill

15 slopes back to front and has a spine running through it horizontally

16 is small and perched up and slopes back to front and a little right to left

17 is also small and pierced up but slopes hard left to right

18 has a high left and high right with a low front right and low middle.

 

Definitely not the most contoured greens I've played but very very far from flat. Also you have to remember the course is built on very extreme (and amazing) land and most of the greens are built into the side or on top of hills and basically follow the natural fall of the land. They would be close to unplayable with much more slope and any speed as there is so much gravity in play there.

 

Also don't understand your comments on the tie ins there fantastic there are ways to run your ball onto most of the greens, the bunkering is great and fits with the scale and the greens very well and the short grass walk offs to the next tees on alot of the holes are old school charming and awesome imo. Not something you see much anymore.

 

Lastly the rough is a blend of blue grass and turf type fescue.

 

[Roadking2003]

Prestwick.

[Andrew Bond of Glencoe]

Double Eagle

Old Sandwich

Yeamans Hall

Eagle Point

Ballyneal

 

Thanks for posting. I hope to play Yeamans Hall in November. Have heard great things, what didn't you like? Also Ballyneal is on my future radar, what didn't you like about it?

 

Played Ballyneal last month. It’s fantastic, maybe even a tad underrated. You will love it!

[Andrew Bond of Glencoe]

I have 2 friends that happen to be Archies and they have Lawsonia Links in their top 10.

 

I'd remove these from the GD awful list- MVGC, OHCC S, Honors, The Golf Club, Scioto, Double Eagle, Crooked Stick, Calusa Pines.

 

Add- Old Town, Canton Brookside, Orchard Lake, Mid Pines, Holston Hills, Meadowbrook, Kingsley, Kirtland, Greywalls

 

Have you played Calusa Pines? In my opinion it's the best or second best course in the state of Florida.

 

Yes, I only mentioned courses I have played, played it 2 or 3 times. Naples National is better. Naples area golf doesn't sniff top 100. Timuquana is much better then Calusa.

 

I have played all three and we couldn’t disagree more. All three were great- was a bit shocked at Timuquana post- restoration, but neither of those three top Calusa Pines. I have Calusa as the second best in FL behind Seminole (post- C&C Restoration).

 

Is it natural, no? They moved heaven and Earth to create 60 feet of elevation changes where it originally only had 6 inches in elevation changes.

 

I would bet 9/10 people would side with Calusa over the other two, which is likely why it’s ranked.

[raynorfan1]

I'm surprised no one has said Doral or Harbour Town

 

Maybe b/c they're not on the "Top 100" list to begin with?

[Stetson]

I'm surprised no one has said Doral or Harbour Town

 

Maybe b/c they're not on the "Top 100" list to begin with?

 

Both showed up on a google search with GD as the publication

[TadWPJ]

I have 2 friends that happen to be Archies and they have Lawsonia Links in their top 10.

 

I'd remove these from the GD awful list- MVGC, OHCC S, Honors, The Golf Club, Scioto, Double Eagle, Crooked Stick, Calusa Pines.

 

Add- Old Town, Canton Brookside, Orchard Lake, Mid Pines, Holston Hills, Meadowbrook, Kingsley, Kirtland, Greywalls

 

Have you played Calusa Pines? In my opinion it's the best or second best course in the state of Florida.

 

Yes, I only mentioned courses I have played, played it 2 or 3 times. Naples National is better. Naples area golf doesn't sniff top 100. Timuquana is much better then Calusa.

 

I have played all three and we couldn’t disagree more. All three were great- was a bit shocked at Timuquana post- restoration, but neither of those three top Calusa Pines. I have Calusa as the second best in FL behind Seminole (post- C&C Restoration).

 

Is it natural, no? They moved heaven and Earth to create 60 feet of elevation changes where it originally only had 6 inches in elevation changes.

 

I would bet 9/10 people would side with Calusa over the other two, which is likely why it’s ranked.

 

Calusa pines has a LI Pro and the maintenance whores eat it up. Now ur telling me it's better then Mtn Lake? The fact it's in GD top 100 only adds further laughter to GD list. Safety in numbers doesn't impress me, It just means there are more people without taste and logic. Naples National has many more great holes then CP, and only 2 weak holes 9 and 18.