Getting really frustrated by the length of rounds.

[Mikey5e]

Unless you play early enough, rounds on the weekends are always going to be extra long. It's just what it is. I imagine some of the people that play on the weekends don't even consider how fast or slow they are playing, they're just playing.

[BiggErn]

I am a starter at a very busy 36 hole complex in NJ. We have 10 minute spacing between groups. I won't allow any group to tee off any sooner, even if the group in front of them is putting on the green. This also helps my ranger to pick out any slow groups easily.

 

 

Yea let’s look for unnecessary reasons to hassle paying customers. This is how I envision the “course police” acting at most places especially NJ.

 

What’s unnecessary about that. That’s just good policy.

 

 

How? If the fairway is clear 2 minutes before your actual time fire away. If that is an issue then the course rent a cops are just hoping to have someone to hassle.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

Lucky me... On a Saturday or Sunday morning (8ish tee time) at my home public course it's not uncommon for a foursome to play in under 4 hours. Finished in 330 all walking a couple weeks back. All it takes however is one group to screw it up. Couple weeks later it was 415 which is about the longest I've experienced so not terrible.

 

 

[deadsolid...shank]

I am a starter at a very busy 36 hole complex in NJ. We have 10 minute spacing between groups. I won't allow any group to tee off any sooner, even if the group in front of them is putting on the green. This also helps my ranger to pick out any slow groups easily.

 

 

Yea let’s look for unnecessary reasons to hassle paying customers. This is how I envision the “course police” acting at most places especially NJ.

 

What’s unnecessary about that. That’s just good policy.

 

 

How? If the fairway is clear 2 minutes before your actual time fire away. If that is an issue then the course rent a cops are just hoping to have someone to hassle.

 

They’re trying to maintain spacing right from the onset in order to eliminate bunch ups further along through the course.

[radiman]

I am a starter at a very busy 36 hole complex in NJ. We have 10 minute spacing between groups. I won't allow any group to tee off any sooner, even if the group in front of them is putting on the green. This also helps my ranger to pick out any slow groups easily.

 

 

Yea let’s look for unnecessary reasons to hassle paying customers. This is how I envision the “course police” acting at most places especially NJ.

 

What’s unnecessary about that. That’s just good policy.

 

 

How? If the fairway is clear 2 minutes before your actual time fire away. If that is an issue then the course rent a cops are just hoping to have someone to hassle.

 

I'd trade a little hassle at the first tee for less congestion on the course. If you make exceptions, then it doesn't take long to negate the intended purpose. You can't wait 2 minutes and tee off at your actual tee time?

[406pat]

I am a starter at a very busy 36 hole complex in NJ. We have 10 minute spacing between groups. I won't allow any group to tee off any sooner, even if the group in front of them is putting on the green. This also helps my ranger to pick out any slow groups easily.

 

 

Yea let's look for unnecessary reasons to hassle paying customers. This is how I envision the "course police" acting at most places especially NJ.

 

What's unnecessary about that. That's just good policy.

 

 

How? If the fairway is clear 2 minutes before your actual time fire away. If that is an issue then the course rent a cops are just hoping to have someone to hassle.

 

I'd trade a little hassle at the first tee for less congestion on the course. If you make exceptions, then it doesn't take long to negate the intended purpose. You can't wait 2 minutes and tee off at your actual tee time?

 

Spot on! A starter should maintain intervals and proper intervals should be based on the slowest hole. Most courses start with a par 4 and par 4s process players faster than par 3s because they have the capacity to hold two groups at the same time. It typically takes around 5-8 minutes for a group to clear the landing zone on a par 4 and another 5-8 minutes to clear the green. A par 3 only has capacity for one group and typically takes 8-14 minutes to clear. If you're going as soon as a group is clear on a par 4, you're effectively shortening your interval to 5-8 minutes and promising a delay on the first hole that can't process groups that fast. Incidentally, if you're on a course where the starter tells you to go as soon as you're clear without looking at the clock, you're on a saturated course.

[BiggErn]

You’re assuming everyone plays at the same pace, nobody loses a ball, and everyone is in a hurry. If your math worked pace of play wouldn’t be an issue.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

I see BiggTroll has made it to the pace of the play thread.

[406pat]

You’re assuming everyone plays at the same pace, nobody loses a ball, and everyone is in a hurry. If your math worked pace of play wouldn’t be an issue.

 

Not quite. I'm assuming that most groups will play at the same average pace with variability introduced to account for delays and lost balls. For the purpose of this thread, the numbers are very general but in line with personal research as well as USGA and R&A guidance and research on average and tour players. The math actually shows us that pace of play will always be an issue if tee time intervals are too short, especially variability from lost balls and other delays are included. The numbers change for each course based on players, setup, management, weather, etc.

[118811]

Wow....some you are quite frustrated here!

 

Truth be told it’s not going to really get better, sorry.

 

You do have few options as I see it.....

 

Quit

Join a Private club

Move to a different location with more courses, less crowded

Take up a different hobby

[Mikey5e]

The only thing that can be done about slow play is come into the Golf Forum and complain about it. Other than that it is what it is.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

The only thing that can be done about slow play is come into the Golf Forum and complain about it. Other than that it is what it is.

I call the clubhouse and ask for a ranger. It usually works.

[third-times-a-charm]

The only thing that can be done about slow play is come into the Golf Forum and complain about it. Other than that it is what it is.

I call the clubhouse and ask for a ranger. It usually works.

 

Not in FL

[nsxguy]

The biggest problem that I see is that the golf course is managed and played considering independent groups with no regard to how those groups interact with one another. This ignores the fact that the golf course is an interdependent system. Depending on the course loading, the course operates in one of three phases: free flow where loading is so light that the only limiting factors are the group or players ability and the course difficulty, interdependent phase where groups begin impacting one another, and saturated where management becomes the controlling variable.

We've all seen this and we all know the results, but long rounds in the three different phases have very different causes. Most of the comments on this thread addressing slow play talk about player behavior and ability but, as long as both are reasonable, these are not controlling variables on a saturated course. Unfortunately, most courses are saturated and one of the biggest culprits is mismanaged tee times. This has been touched on here, but proper tee time intervals and proper enforcement of those tee times is the first step to addressing long rounds. As a general rule, if your tee time interval is less than the time it takes to clear the landing zone on the slowest hole, you are saturating the course.

Here's an example - A local course I play has a par time for each hole on the scorecard to get players moving. The par 3 fourth hole has a par time of 14 minutes on the card. The tee time interval in summer is 8 minutes. If it takes every group an average of 14 minutes to play the hole and a new group comes to the hole every 8 minutes... you can see where this is going.

It doesn't matter if every group on the sheet can "play 18 in 3:30" because the course is saturated, making that variable insignificant. If you've got a packed freeway it doesn't matter that the speed limit is 60 or if you're driving a Corvette, you're only going to be moving as fast as the system allows.

Tee time intervals are a casualty of "because we've always done it this way" thinking. Ask most courses how they come up with their intervals and par times and you'll hear " because that's what it should take" or "we've already changed from 8 to 9". How many say "we've analyzed play, course setup, and revenue and our optimal interval is 11.5 minutes so we go off a strict 11 minute interval."

Saturation leads to 6 hour rounds, leads to players accepting 6 hour rounds, leads to players thinking a 6 hour pace is okay. Courses can't demand better pace of play until they enable better pace of play.

 

@wrmiller you've got me pegged. Civil Engineer with an MBA. Special kind of nerd.

 

Pro tip.

 

If you'd have broken your lengthy post up into 5 or 6 paragraphs more people would have (probably) read it.

[FourTops]

Wow....some you are quite frustrated here!

 

Truth be told it's not going to really get better, sorry.

 

You do have few options as I see it.....

 

Quit

Join a Private club

Move to a different location with more courses, less crowded

Take up a different hobby

 

It's like what's another 45 minutes after all the prep...driving to the course...hitting range balls...and all the excuses used to be gone all day are already accepted?

[118811]

Today we (3 of us) played a daily fee corse.

6600!yds.

We played in 4 hrs 10 mins. Would have finished maybe 10 mins faster but we caught the tourist group in front of us on 16.

Perfect....our own pace.

I asked my group if they wanted to play faster? They said no.....we do have bets and for the most part, and wait til our turn to hit.

Didn’t play great.....a couple strokes above my handicap.

Too busy thinking about the pace of play!!!!?

[TollBros]

Today we (3 of us) played a daily fee corse.

6600!yds.

We played in 4 hrs 10 mins. Would have finished maybe 10 mins faster but we caught the tourist group in front of us on 16.

Perfect....our own pace.

I asked my group if they wanted to play faster? They said no.....we do have bets and for the most part, and wait til our turn to hit.

Didn’t play great.....a couple strokes above my handicap.

Too busy thinking about the pace of play!!!!?

 

We played yesterday as well. 4 accomplished players, playing 6800 yards, 18 holes. We finished up in 3 hours and 35 min right on the heels of a twosome of less than accomplished players, and actually had to wait a few times, as well as let 2 singles play through. I'll take that pace every day for 4, and as long as your group let mine play through, everyone is happy.

[406pat]

The biggest problem that I see is that the golf course is managed and played considering independent groups with no regard to how those groups interact with one another. This ignores the fact that the golf course is an interdependent system. Depending on the course loading, the course operates in one of three phases: free flow where loading is so light that the only limiting factors are the group or players ability and the course difficulty, interdependent phase where groups begin impacting one another, and saturated where management becomes the controlling variable.

We've all seen this and we all know the results, but long rounds in the three different phases have very different causes. Most of the comments on this thread addressing slow play talk about player behavior and ability but, as long as both are reasonable, these are not controlling variables on a saturated course. Unfortunately, most courses are saturated and one of the biggest culprits is mismanaged tee times. This has been touched on here, but proper tee time intervals and proper enforcement of those tee times is the first step to addressing long rounds. As a general rule, if your tee time interval is less than the time it takes to clear the landing zone on the slowest hole, you are saturating the course.

Here's an example - A local course I play has a par time for each hole on the scorecard to get players moving. The par 3 fourth hole has a par time of 14 minutes on the card. The tee time interval in summer is 8 minutes. If it takes every group an average of 14 minutes to play the hole and a new group comes to the hole every 8 minutes... you can see where this is going.

It doesn't matter if every group on the sheet can "play 18 in 3:30" because the course is saturated, making that variable insignificant. If you've got a packed freeway it doesn't matter that the speed limit is 60 or if you're driving a Corvette, you're only going to be moving as fast as the system allows.

Tee time intervals are a casualty of "because we've always done it this way" thinking. Ask most courses how they come up with their intervals and par times and you'll hear " because that's what it should take" or "we've already changed from 8 to 9". How many say "we've analyzed play, course setup, and revenue and our optimal interval is 11.5 minutes so we go off a strict 11 minute interval."

Saturation leads to 6 hour rounds, leads to players accepting 6 hour rounds, leads to players thinking a 6 hour pace is okay. Courses can't demand better pace of play until they enable better pace of play.

 

@wrmiller you've got me pegged. Civil Engineer with an MBA. Special kind of nerd.

 

Pro tip.

 

If you'd have broken your lengthy post up into 5 or 6 paragraphs more people would have (probably) read it.

 

Fair enough. Operations optimization is a passion of mine and I tend to get a little wordy.

[nsxguy]

The biggest problem that I see is that the golf course is managed and played considering independent groups with no regard to how those groups interact with one another. This ignores the fact that the golf course is an interdependent system. Depending on the course loading, the course operates in one of three phases: free flow where loading is so light that the only limiting factors are the group or players ability and the course difficulty, interdependent phase where groups begin impacting one another, and saturated where management becomes the controlling variable.

We've all seen this and we all know the results, but long rounds in the three different phases have very different causes. Most of the comments on this thread addressing slow play talk about player behavior and ability but, as long as both are reasonable, these are not controlling variables on a saturated course. Unfortunately, most courses are saturated and one of the biggest culprits is mismanaged tee times. This has been touched on here, but proper tee time intervals and proper enforcement of those tee times is the first step to addressing long rounds. As a general rule, if your tee time interval is less than the time it takes to clear the landing zone on the slowest hole, you are saturating the course.

Here's an example - A local course I play has a par time for each hole on the scorecard to get players moving. The par 3 fourth hole has a par time of 14 minutes on the card. The tee time interval in summer is 8 minutes. If it takes every group an average of 14 minutes to play the hole and a new group comes to the hole every 8 minutes... you can see where this is going.

It doesn't matter if every group on the sheet can "play 18 in 3:30" because the course is saturated, making that variable insignificant. If you've got a packed freeway it doesn't matter that the speed limit is 60 or if you're driving a Corvette, you're only going to be moving as fast as the system allows.

Tee time intervals are a casualty of "because we've always done it this way" thinking. Ask most courses how they come up with their intervals and par times and you'll hear " because that's what it should take" or "we've already changed from 8 to 9". How many say "we've analyzed play, course setup, and revenue and our optimal interval is 11.5 minutes so we go off a strict 11 minute interval."

Saturation leads to 6 hour rounds, leads to players accepting 6 hour rounds, leads to players thinking a 6 hour pace is okay. Courses can't demand better pace of play until they enable better pace of play.

 

@wrmiller you've got me pegged. Civil Engineer with an MBA. Special kind of nerd.

 

Pro tip.

 

If you'd have broken your lengthy post up into 5 or 6 paragraphs more people would have (probably) read it.

 

Fair enough. Operations optimization is a passion of mine and I tend to get a little wordy.

 

I don't think "wordy" is the issue. Many people, especially around here, will read a longer post (though some won't).

 

But when the sentences are all jumbled together in a "string", some/many/most will just move on,,,,,,,,,, ;)

[resnor]

Played yesterday...got out of work early, called my course, they said I could go out at 11:30am, no problem. I get there, playing by myself, and proceed to wait to tee off until 11:45 because the foursome in front of me took that long to hit multiple shots to finally get out farther than about 280 yards from me. I hit my tee shot, go to it, and proceed to wait 10 more minutes for them to clear the green. I realize at this point that there is a father and his maybe 8 year old son in that group...they weren't supposed to tee off until 11:40. I finish out the hole, and move on to the second, a par 5. I get there just as they're finishing their tee shots... No groups in front of them. I ask if they mind if I tee off and play through. Old guy says No problem. The aforementioned father stops me, and says if they feel they're too slow, they'll split into two twosomes. I then wait on the tee again for about 10 minutes, and can finally hit my tee shot. I proceed to my ball, and wait another ten minutes while all four, including the child, spend another 10 minutes or so getting balls to the green. I pick up, and go around them, skipping the hole. I play the third, and meet up with my pro on the fourth hole. Took 45 minutes for me to play two holes. On the back I caught another foursome of older women, who wouldn't let me play through until they hit a par 5.

 

I did shoot an 84, though, so it wasn't all bad.

[Skydiver22]

In the last two weeks I have played in tourneys that had me on the course for over 5 and a half hours each round... talk about rhythm killing

[118811]

Today we (3 of us) played a daily fee corse.

6600!yds.

We played in 4 hrs 10 mins. Would have finished maybe 10 mins faster but we caught the tourist group in front of us on 16.

Perfect....our own pace.

I asked my group if they wanted to play faster? They said no.....we do have bets and for the most part, and wait til our turn to hit.

Didn’t play great.....a couple strokes above my handicap.

Too busy thinking about the pace of play!!!!?

 

We played yesterday as well. 4 accomplished players, playing 6800 yards, 18 holes. We finished up in 3 hours and 35 min right on the heels of a twosome of less than accomplished players, and actually had to wait a few times, as well as let 2 singles play through. I'll take that pace every day for 4, and as long as your group let mine play through, everyone is happy.

[Naptime]

5:30 waiting on a foursome that wouldn't putt out 2 footers and marked everything. Dawdling around. Waited on one side of the rough while the other cart was fiddling in the left rough. Then they finally got around to picking the clubs out of their bags. If this was every day I'd quit golf.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

5:30 waiting on a foursome that wouldn't putt out 2 footers and marked everything. Dawdling around. Waited on one side of the rough while the other cart was fiddling in the left rough. Then they finally got around to picking the clubs out of their bags. If this was every day I'd quit golf.

I despise marking unless absolutely necessary.

[justincredible04]

5:30 waiting on a foursome that wouldn't putt out 2 footers and marked everything. Dawdling around. Waited on one side of the rough while the other cart was fiddling in the left rough. Then they finally got around to picking the clubs out of their bags. If this was every day I'd quit golf.

 

Lol hit it over them

[Naptime]

Talked to the staff. It was a batchelor party outing. Figuring half probably don't play regularly and all were well lubricated with booze so hard to expect any better. We got out before them today and we're teeing off on 18 while they were on 11.

[757USMCVET]

I have been playing golf for almost 30 years and I am without question currently playing the best golf of my life at 45 years old. I usually break 80 and absolutely love the game like I did 30 years ago, but I am so frustrated by how long these rounds are becoming simply due to course mismanagement / disinterest.

 

I played golf yesterday and the round started off slow and got progressively worse. By the time we get to the 10th hole there is four groups on the hole (two on the tee box) and that continued on 11 & 12. At that point it took 3 hr 20 minutes to play 12 holes and judging by how it was becoming increasingly slower the final 6 holes would have certainly taken 2 hours no exaggeration.

 

When we were on 10 we realized that there was a fivesome three groups ahead. A couple of people called the clubhouse to complain and the marshall faked outrage about the whole thing when he knowingly let them go off that way. They did nothing about breaking it up even though they gave us the lip service that they were going to do something about it.

 

So I left after the 12th hole because the whole thing was ridiculous and I would have only been able to play 2-3 more holes anyways. I never would have imagined a 10am tee time would have been a 5 1/2 hour round.

 

Here is what pissed me off. When I left the 12th hole and headed back to the clubhouse it turns out that a really bad foursome and the fivesome behind them were holding up the whole golf course. There was only two groups on 16, a twosome on 17, and nobody on 18!!! So I played the 18th hole and left.

 

When are these golf courses going to get it in their heads that there is consistent money to be made on the weekend mornings if you run a tight ship? If word gets out that a quality gold course us having 4 1/2 hour rounds the tee sheet for Sat & Sun will be full by Monday evening and have plenty of repeat customers. I am really starting to believe that golf course mgmt are their own worst enemy in this matter.

 

I am seriously thinking about playing less golf because I am so tired of this crap. I love the game of golf. I love the decision making and creativity aspect of the game, but I am seriously getting turned off by this nonsense.

 

Am I wrong that golf courses are missing out on an opportunity to profit off the poor management of other golf courses? Hotels and restaurants that are well managed and offer quality service can stay in business for a long time. Have golf course mgmt just become indifferent to the whole thing, lazy, lack of true mgmt skills?

 

I have never worked in the golf industry in any capacity and do not care to because I just love playing. I may very well being missing something, or taking too simplistic of a look at the whole thing. Your thoughts? I am beyond frustrated.

Amen. I sold all my clubs last week for this same thing happening way too often...since I’m a glutton for punishment I’ll be back eventually ?

[Mikey5e]

I have been playing golf for almost 30 years and I am without question currently playing the best golf of my life at 45 years old. I usually break 80 and absolutely love the game like I did 30 years ago, but I am so frustrated by how long these rounds are becoming simply due to course mismanagement / disinterest.

 

I played golf yesterday and the round started off slow and got progressively worse. By the time we get to the 10th hole there is four groups on the hole (two on the tee box) and that continued on 11 & 12. At that point it took 3 hr 20 minutes to play 12 holes and judging by how it was becoming increasingly slower the final 6 holes would have certainly taken 2 hours no exaggeration.

 

When we were on 10 we realized that there was a fivesome three groups ahead. A couple of people called the clubhouse to complain and the marshall faked outrage about the whole thing when he knowingly let them go off that way. They did nothing about breaking it up even though they gave us the lip service that they were going to do something about it.

 

So I left after the 12th hole because the whole thing was ridiculous and I would have only been able to play 2-3 more holes anyways. I never would have imagined a 10am tee time would have been a 5 1/2 hour round.

 

Here is what pissed me off. When I left the 12th hole and headed back to the clubhouse it turns out that a really bad foursome and the fivesome behind them were holding up the whole golf course. There was only two groups on 16, a twosome on 17, and nobody on 18!!! So I played the 18th hole and left.

 

When are these golf courses going to get it in their heads that there is consistent money to be made on the weekend mornings if you run a tight ship? If word gets out that a quality gold course us having 4 1/2 hour rounds the tee sheet for Sat & Sun will be full by Monday evening and have plenty of repeat customers. I am really starting to believe that golf course mgmt are their own worst enemy in this matter.

 

I am seriously thinking about playing less golf because I am so tired of this crap. I love the game of golf. I love the decision making and creativity aspect of the game, but I am seriously getting turned off by this nonsense.

 

Am I wrong that golf courses are missing out on an opportunity to profit off the poor management of other golf courses? Hotels and restaurants that are well managed and offer quality service can stay in business for a long time. Have golf course mgmt just become indifferent to the whole thing, lazy, lack of true mgmt skills?

 

I have never worked in the golf industry in any capacity and do not care to because I just love playing. I may very well being missing something, or taking too simplistic of a look at the whole thing. Your thoughts? I am beyond frustrated.

Amen. I sold all my clubs last week for this same thing happening way too often...since I’m a glutton for punishment I’ll be back eventually ?

soS you guys quit playing golf and then come on a golf for him to tell us you quit?

[757USMCVET]

I have been playing golf for almost 30 years and I am without question currently playing the best golf of my life at 45 years old. I usually break 80 and absolutely love the game like I did 30 years ago, but I am so frustrated by how long these rounds are becoming simply due to course mismanagement / disinterest.

 

I played golf yesterday and the round started off slow and got progressively worse. By the time we get to the 10th hole there is four groups on the hole (two on the tee box) and that continued on 11 & 12. At that point it took 3 hr 20 minutes to play 12 holes and judging by how it was becoming increasingly slower the final 6 holes would have certainly taken 2 hours no exaggeration.

 

When we were on 10 we realized that there was a fivesome three groups ahead. A couple of people called the clubhouse to complain and the marshall faked outrage about the whole thing when he knowingly let them go off that way. They did nothing about breaking it up even though they gave us the lip service that they were going to do something about it.

 

So I left after the 12th hole because the whole thing was ridiculous and I would have only been able to play 2-3 more holes anyways. I never would have imagined a 10am tee time would have been a 5 1/2 hour round.

 

Here is what pissed me off. When I left the 12th hole and headed back to the clubhouse it turns out that a really bad foursome and the fivesome behind them were holding up the whole golf course. There was only two groups on 16, a twosome on 17, and nobody on 18!!! So I played the 18th hole and left.

 

When are these golf courses going to get it in their heads that there is consistent money to be made on the weekend mornings if you run a tight ship? If word gets out that a quality gold course us having 4 1/2 hour rounds the tee sheet for Sat & Sun will be full by Monday evening and have plenty of repeat customers. I am really starting to believe that golf course mgmt are their own worst enemy in this matter.

 

I am seriously thinking about playing less golf because I am so tired of this crap. I love the game of golf. I love the decision making and creativity aspect of the game, but I am seriously getting turned off by this nonsense.

 

Am I wrong that golf courses are missing out on an opportunity to profit off the poor management of other golf courses? Hotels and restaurants that are well managed and offer quality service can stay in business for a long time. Have golf course mgmt just become indifferent to the whole thing, lazy, lack of true mgmt skills?

 

I have never worked in the golf industry in any capacity and do not care to because I just love playing. I may very well being missing something, or taking too simplistic of a look at the whole thing. Your thoughts? I am beyond frustrated.

Amen. I sold all my clubs last week for this same thing happening way too often...since I’m a glutton for punishment I’ll be back eventually ?

soS you guys quit playing golf and then come on a golf for him to tell us you quit?

Nope, came to lament the fact that golf is moving to a place it shouldn’t be. Glad to find out I wasn’t the only one experiencing these things. Usually a forum is meant to talk about a topic. That is what we did

[radiman]

While I agree that there are courses that feed into this poor pace of play, I hate to see anyone quit playing because of it. In my mind, if I can't tee off at 8:30 or earlier, it's not worth booking a tee time until the twilight time frame. Something about finishing a round as the wind is dying down and the shadows are stretching across the ground that I find peaceful. It's typically pretty quiet on the course by then too.