Transition confusion...drop hands then rotate (Monte) or leave hands up and rotate and then drop (GG

[Nard_S]

I've come to look at this through the prism of thinking "fast" & "slow". Fast is unconscious and reactive, slow is analytical, emotional and (when it comes to golf), dictatorial.

Meditation and quieting the mind is all about quelling the slow thinking side and keeping it from sucking up the oxygen and taking over. Fast is the baller, slow is the coach or manager on the side line. The "baller" needs to be allowed freedom to do, the coach can analyze, teach and convey but cannot dictate on field play. So for me, if my "slow" is listening and observing while my "fast" side is in charge and doing then progress can be made. Things can get pointed out but then the "slow" butts out and goes back to listening, feeling and observing.in subordinate manner to the "fast" reactive, in charge, doing side. I go there mentally, awareness goes up, feels and sensations become imprinted and positive change can happen..

[mstram]

@Nard_S

 

Your "fast" -> Self 2 "The Inner Game of Golf",

 

Your "slow" -> Self 1

 

Have you read the book ?

 

If not, you've already arrived at the same conclusions of Gallwey. Might be some additional ideas in there for you.

[Jasonic]

You're a 5 cap so let your good swings tell you what you like.....DONT GET THE CART BEFORE THE HORSE!!

 

If you were a rook I would understand your confusion but you're not.

 

During practice hit balls until you are puring them without analyzing your swing THEN start paying attention to what the mechanics are that you like cause its different for everyone! But let your swing be natural to how you like....then you can experiment with different styles but first you gotta know where you're coming from so you dont get lost in the millions of techniques taught out there....and you have a basis to judge if something new is better then your natural swing and you can even bounce back and forth between them to feel the difference... swing has to be repeatable so trust what feels natural

 

That’s what I do! Lol

 

I swing great on the range...EXACTLY how I want and with total awareness of what I’m doing and control of my bad habits for the most part. It’s when it counts on the course where it all goes to sh........ I mean sometimes I bounce between feels to get where I want to be but generally I’m a Plus range player.

 

Played 36 yesterday and had some really great swings for me so progress is possible. Never give up. Great discussion

[Nard_S]

@Nard_S

 

Your "fast" -> Self 2 "The Inner Game of Golf",

 

Your "slow" -> Self 1

 

Have you read the book ?

 

If not, you've already arrived at the same conclusions of Gallwey. Might be some additional ideas in there for you.

 

I have not but have heard of the book, and probably should get it, thanks. I actually got this from a NY Times best seller (Thinking Fast & Slow by Daniel Kahneman) about the two types of thinking that is always going on in the brain. I was a musician in another life and much of this is relates to that experience too. Golf highlights this stuff in spades but it's evident in all sports and things we do.

[Jim Waldron]

Yeah, Tim Galway wrote a few bestsellers starting with "Inner Game of Tennis" extolling the concept - basis of a ton of sport psychology - of conscious mind v subconscious mind.

 

He was right of course.

 

Basis of a lot of the Asian martial arts approach to learning movement patterns to level of dominant habit, then surrendering control from conscious to subconscious.

 

I just watched a documentary film about the legendary tennis coach Nick Bollettieri who talked at length about this topic.

 

Unfortunately for our game, that very mainstream concept in other sports has failed to penetrate coaching in golf.

 

It should be one of the first things discussed in a golf school or lesson, in my opinion.

[Jasonic]

Yeah, Tim Galway wrote a few bestsellers starting with "Inner Game of Tennis" extolling the concept - basis of a ton of sport psychology - of conscious mind v subconscious mind.

 

He was right of course.

 

Basis of a lot of the Asian martial arts approach to learning movement patterns to level of dominant habit, then surrendering control from conscious to subconscious.

 

I just watched a documentary film about the legendary tennis coach Nick Bollettieri who talked at length about this topic.

 

Unfortunately for our game, that very mainstream concept in other sports has failed to penetrate coaching in golf.

 

It should be one of the first things discussed in a golf school or lesson, in my opinion.

 

I agree totally and I think golf is so much more “mental” because it’s easier to let your subconscious take over when reacting to a moving object coming towards you (tennis baseball soccer etc) where in Golf the ball isn’t moving so there’s all action not reaction. It’s just staring at you waiting for you to hit it!

[Jim Waldron]

Jim, in your experience Does meditation help with a deeper mind connection with the body?

 

 

Absolutely!

 

Although technically what is termed meditation practice in popular culture is just the early stages of training the mind, ie actually concentration or mindfulness practice.

 

Meaning narrow focus on just one thing, usually the breath.

 

Learning how to tame the wandering mind, which is the natural state of normal consciousness.

 

Connecting mind to body is an essential first step in the golf skills process that I have developed over the past 25 years of teaching golf for a living.

 

Just curious as I used to meditate quite a bit but are you saying if you meditate on a certain move or swing (your own or say Rory's) will it help to "re map" your physical pattern?

 

Focused mind in narrow mode is concentration, and the start of learning how to control your internal state, both mentally and eventually emotionally.

 

Most humans, at least those living today in the developed world, do not primarily experience their body directly with awareness via Feel channel, but rather will tend to visualize or picture their body, for the most part.

 

Awareness of the body directly via Feel is an important golf learning skill, in my experience.

 

Swinging with awareness of the body passively meaning not trying to change it or judge the swing motion in any way is a key starting point.

 

What matters in golf is how your body is objectively moving - NOT how you wish or fantasize about how you want it to move.

 

Awareness is the key tool for programming into the SM new movement patterns and for deleting old toxic patterns.

 

It strengthens the mind-brain/body connection in that way.

 

I teach my students to switch from the common but ineffective "body image" mode to "body feel" mode, a vitally essential first step in the learning and training Process.

[oikos1]

Yeah, Tim Galway wrote a few bestsellers starting with "Inner Game of Tennis" extolling the concept - basis of a ton of sport psychology - of conscious mind v subconscious mind.

 

He was right of course.

 

Basis of a lot of the Asian martial arts approach to learning movement patterns to level of dominant habit, then surrendering control from conscious to subconscious.

 

I just watched a documentary film about the legendary tennis coach Nick Bollettieri who talked at length about this topic.

 

Unfortunately for our game, that very mainstream concept in other sports has failed to penetrate coaching in golf.

 

It should be one of the first things discussed in a golf school or lesson, in my opinion.

 

I agree totally and I think golf is so much more "mental" because it's easier to let your subconscious take over when reacting to a moving object coming towards you (tennis baseball soccer etc) where in Golf the ball isn't moving so there's all action not reaction. It's just staring at you waiting for you to hit it!

 

Which is exactly why it is easier to hit a golf ball than a 100 mph fastball. Don't know why some of you try to make the game harder than it already is.

 

By the way, the golf ball isn't staring at you. You are staring at the golf ball.

[Jim Waldron]

Yeah, Tim Galway wrote a few bestsellers starting with "Inner Game of Tennis" extolling the concept - basis of a ton of sport psychology - of conscious mind v subconscious mind.

 

He was right of course.

 

Basis of a lot of the Asian martial arts approach to learning movement patterns to level of dominant habit, then surrendering control from conscious to subconscious.

 

I just watched a documentary film about the legendary tennis coach Nick Bollettieri who talked at length about this topic.

 

Unfortunately for our game, that very mainstream concept in other sports has failed to penetrate coaching in golf.

 

It should be one of the first things discussed in a golf school or lesson, in my opinion.

 

I agree totally and I think golf is so much more "mental" because it's easier to let your subconscious take over when reacting to a moving object coming towards you (tennis baseball soccer etc) where in Golf the ball isn't moving so there's all action not reaction. It's just staring at you waiting for you to hit it!

 

Which is exactly why it is easier to hit a golf ball than a 100 mph fastball. Don't know why some of you try to make the game harder than it already is.

 

By the way, the golf ball isn't staring at you. You are staring at the golf ball.

 

You missed his point completely.

 

He was talking about the mental aspect of hitting a golf ball, which does make it harder than hitting a fastball.

 

Fastball is tougher physically for sure.

 

Learning how to make the switch from conscious thinking mind to subconscious reactive athletic mode is a learned golf skill that all good golfers master at some point in their career.

 

Pre-shot routine and an automatic swing trigger make that skill easier to achieve.

[Jasonic]

Yeah, Tim Galway wrote a few bestsellers starting with "Inner Game of Tennis" extolling the concept - basis of a ton of sport psychology - of conscious mind v subconscious mind.

 

He was right of course.

 

Basis of a lot of the Asian martial arts approach to learning movement patterns to level of dominant habit, then surrendering control from conscious to subconscious.

 

I just watched a documentary film about the legendary tennis coach Nick Bollettieri who talked at length about this topic.

 

Unfortunately for our game, that very mainstream concept in other sports has failed to penetrate coaching in golf.

 

It should be one of the first things discussed in a golf school or lesson, in my opinion.

 

I agree totally and I think golf is so much more "mental" because it's easier to let your subconscious take over when reacting to a moving object coming towards you (tennis baseball soccer etc) where in Golf the ball isn't moving so there's all action not reaction. It's just staring at you waiting for you to hit it!

 

Which is exactly why it is easier to hit a golf ball than a 100 mph fastball. Don't know why some of you try to make the game harder than it already is.

 

By the way, the golf ball isn't staring at you. You are staring at the golf ball.

 

Well I knew this was coming please don’t derail the discussion. Some people enjoy discussing the golf swing on a discussion forum about Golf. Please contribute positively or don’t comment. Thanks.

 

Yes I know the golf ball doesn’t have eyes. It’s called humor. In some parts of the world it’s humour. In monte’s videos he talks about humerus forward. That’s different.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humour

[oikos1]

Yeah, Tim Galway wrote a few bestsellers starting with "Inner Game of Tennis" extolling the concept - basis of a ton of sport psychology - of conscious mind v subconscious mind.

 

He was right of course.

 

Basis of a lot of the Asian martial arts approach to learning movement patterns to level of dominant habit, then surrendering control from conscious to subconscious.

 

I just watched a documentary film about the legendary tennis coach Nick Bollettieri who talked at length about this topic.

 

Unfortunately for our game, that very mainstream concept in other sports has failed to penetrate coaching in golf.

 

It should be one of the first things discussed in a golf school or lesson, in my opinion.

 

I agree totally and I think golf is so much more "mental" because it's easier to let your subconscious take over when reacting to a moving object coming towards you (tennis baseball soccer etc) where in Golf the ball isn't moving so there's all action not reaction. It's just staring at you waiting for you to hit it!

 

Which is exactly why it is easier to hit a golf ball than a 100 mph fastball. Don't know why some of you try to make the game harder than it already is.

 

By the way, the golf ball isn't staring at you. You are staring at the golf ball.

 

You missed his point completely.

 

He was talking about the mental aspect of hitting a golf ball, which does make it harder than hitting a fastball.

 

Fastball is tougher physically for sure.

 

Learning how to make the switch from conscious thinking mind to subconscious reactive athletic mode is a learned golf skill that all good golfers master at some point in their career.

 

Pre-shot routine and an automatic swing trigger make that skill easier to achieve.

You don't think there is a mental component to standing inches away from an object weighing roughly five oz. moving 100 mph and then trying to hit said object? Again, hitting a golf ball is not difficult. Saying that it is difficult "mentally" is making the process harder than it needs to be. Moving the ball the way you want to (learned physical skill/innate athletic talent) and managing your misses (both mental and physical skills) is what becomes difficult.

[oikos1]

Yeah, Tim Galway wrote a few bestsellers starting with "Inner Game of Tennis" extolling the concept - basis of a ton of sport psychology - of conscious mind v subconscious mind.

 

He was right of course.

 

Basis of a lot of the Asian martial arts approach to learning movement patterns to level of dominant habit, then surrendering control from conscious to subconscious.

 

I just watched a documentary film about the legendary tennis coach Nick Bollettieri who talked at length about this topic.

 

Unfortunately for our game, that very mainstream concept in other sports has failed to penetrate coaching in golf.

 

It should be one of the first things discussed in a golf school or lesson, in my opinion.

 

I agree totally and I think golf is so much more "mental" because it's easier to let your subconscious take over when reacting to a moving object coming towards you (tennis baseball soccer etc) where in Golf the ball isn't moving so there's all action not reaction. It's just staring at you waiting for you to hit it!

 

Which is exactly why it is easier to hit a golf ball than a 100 mph fastball. Don't know why some of you try to make the game harder than it already is.

 

By the way, the golf ball isn't staring at you. You are staring at the golf ball.

 

Well I knew this was coming please don't derail the discussion. Some people enjoy discussing the golf swing on a discussion forum about Golf. Please contribute positively or don't comment. Thanks.

 

Yes I know the golf ball doesn't have eyes. It's called humor. In some parts of the world it's humour. In monte's videos he talks about humerus forward. That's different.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humour

 

Jasonic,

 

I'm not sure how I could derail the thread as it appears the thread derailed at your own doing. No need to blame others.

 

"Hey everyone. This is the most conceptually confusing part of the swing for me and I think it’s also the most important. Obviously both of these teachers I mentioned are highly accomplished and respected so I’m not saying one is bad or better but just trying to understand the two different thoughts."

 

"Just trying to figure out this game as I’m a decent player (5.4 mainly due to short game) but can’t “break through” to the next plateau."

 

"Jim, in your experience Does meditation help with a deeper mind connection with the body?"

 

"I agree totally and I think golf is so much more “mental”

 

What's to derail? What's the thread about? You're all over the place.

[Jim Waldron]

Yeah, Tim Galway wrote a few bestsellers starting with "Inner Game of Tennis" extolling the concept - basis of a ton of sport psychology - of conscious mind v subconscious mind.

 

He was right of course.

 

Basis of a lot of the Asian martial arts approach to learning movement patterns to level of dominant habit, then surrendering control from conscious to subconscious.

 

I just watched a documentary film about the legendary tennis coach Nick Bollettieri who talked at length about this topic.

 

Unfortunately for our game, that very mainstream concept in other sports has failed to penetrate coaching in golf.

 

It should be one of the first things discussed in a golf school or lesson, in my opinion.

 

I agree totally and I think golf is so much more "mental" because it's easier to let your subconscious take over when reacting to a moving object coming towards you (tennis baseball soccer etc) where in Golf the ball isn't moving so there's all action not reaction. It's just staring at you waiting for you to hit it!

 

Which is exactly why it is easier to hit a golf ball than a 100 mph fastball. Don't know why some of you try to make the game harder than it already is.

 

By the way, the golf ball isn't staring at you. You are staring at the golf ball.

 

You missed his point completely.

 

He was talking about the mental aspect of hitting a golf ball, which does make it harder than hitting a fastball.

 

Fastball is tougher physically for sure.

 

Learning how to make the switch from conscious thinking mind to subconscious reactive athletic mode is a learned golf skill that all good golfers master at some point in their career.

 

Pre-shot routine and an automatic swing trigger make that skill easier to achieve.

You don't think there is a mental component to standing inches away from an object weighing roughly five oz. moving 100 mph and then trying to hit said object? Again, hitting a golf ball is not difficult. Saying that it is difficult "mentally" is making the process harder than it needs to be. Moving the ball the way you want to (learned physical skill/innate athletic talent) and managing your misses (both mental and physical skills) is what becomes difficult.

 

You obviously do not understand cause and effect.

 

Maybe I can help you with that....

 

The thing that happens first in time is the cause and the one that happens later is the effect.

 

Literally thousands of golfers have told me that the stationary golf ball makes it more difficult mentally precisely because that very fact makes it harder to shift to the kind of athletic mindset they had in other sports with a moving ball.

 

First they notice that they are in a tense, thinking, non-athletic mindset - THEN they come to the conclusion.

 

No one is simply "making up" the belief that golf is hard mentally...

[Nard_S]

So in concert with the fast/slow, singular focus awareness thing, my thinking has morphed into delegating the task of swing to the body and task of club control to hands and arms. It's a bifurcation that organizes my awareness. I've always been too hand arm centered in my focus.. Advanced players have great body control, their discipline to maintain geometry and fire key muscle groups at the right instance for the ultimate but delayed action of firing the head through the ball is really what sets them apart. All their muscle groups have the dexterity of the thumb and fore finger. So I've set out to attain that competence too. But even then, my awareness or mindfulness of what those body parts are actually doing still is lacking. Compartmentalizing them in this way has brought clarity of focus that I can grab onto. Been at this for a short time but it's somewhat of break through for me.I was -1 after 5 holes last outing, which is a great start for me and the round did go mortal after that but I attribute that early success to adhering to that framework of thought. It all feels too right to ignore and it's the path I'm taking.

[wmblake2000]

So in concert with the fast/slow, singular focus awareness thing, my thinking has morphed into delegating the task of swing to the body and task of club control to hands and arms. It's a bifurcation that organizes my awareness. I've always been too hand arm centered in my focus.. Advanced players have great body control, their discipline to maintain geometry and fire key muscle groups at the right instance for the ultimate but delayed action of firing the head through the ball is really what sets them apart. All their muscle groups have the dexterity of the thumb and fore finger. So I've set out to attain that competence too. But even then, my awareness or mindfulness of what those body parts are actually doing still is lacking. Compartmentalizing them in this way has brought clarity of focus that I can grab onto. Been at this for a short time but it's somewhat of break through for me.I was -1 after 5 holes last outing, which is a great start for me and the round did go mortal after that but I attribute that early success to adhering to that framework of thought. It all feels too right to ignore and it's the path I'm taking.

 

I think there something to your general premise - allocate something to body, something to hands. I have been working hard at shallowing shaft thru a hands/arms approach. It’s working, but hard. Played yesterday and stunk the place up (in the hottest day I ever recall in LA with an unheard of 90+ at the beach). Finally I started to sort things out and they fell right in line with your notion.

 

This is maybe my core conclusion from years of steady improvement: there is no “magic feel” - no one central thing that solves it all. Very different pieces have to fit together.

 

The trick is to bundle all of this into a very simple set of feels that you can pretty much just trust. That takes time and reps.

[oikos1]

Jim Waldron wrote:

 

"You obviously do not understand cause and effect.

 

Maybe I can help you with that....

 

The thing that happens first in time is the cause and the one that happens later is the effect.

 

Literally thousands of golfers have told me that the stationary golf ball makes it more difficult mentally precisely because that very fact makes it harder to shift to the kind of athletic mindset they had in other sports with a moving ball.

 

First they notice that they are in a tense, thinking, non-athletic mindset - THEN they come to the conclusion.

 

No one is simply "making up" the belief that golf is hard mentally..".

 

I'm going to bypass your condescending remark as to what I know and don't know.

 

You seem to be mixing "golf is hard mentally" with "golf swing is hard mentally". I'll say it again. Hitting a golf ball is not difficult. Making the ball move the way you want and managing misses and emotions is what is difficult. Give the average person 10 shots at hitting a golf ball and 10 swings at a fastball and which ball do you think will be hit more often?

 

Do you really think that Jasonic as a 5 cap has difficulty hitting the golf ball? He would have to demonstrate some level of competence at hitting the ball to be a 5. His inability to "break through" has nothing to do with not being mentally capable of hitting the ball.

[rebby]

This video made me think of this thread. I admit that I haven't read through it all (yet) but this seems relevant. Once again, right out of the "feel isn't real" department.

 

[Nard_S]

WM,

 

We are of like mind, I've struggled with the org chart of thought on the swing seemingly forever. In reality it takes hand/arms AND body to flatten the shaft but the mechanism to manage and automate it is where I failed a lot in the past year or so. I've gotten to the point where the arm/hand triangle is pretty good but I'm just getting aware of what the body really needs to do and what improvements need to made.The concept of "swing down hill" has been huge and importance of the core firing and stabilizing the swing come to mind . Plus the concept of how the tail bone and caboose are used to counteract and balance upper body motion to facilitate it all. Those 3 things have been 'aha!' breakthroughs even though I've read about them time and time again. It's been tons of fun with the struggle though. :)

[Jim Waldron]

Jim Waldron wrote:

 

"You obviously do not understand cause and effect.

 

Maybe I can help you with that....

 

The thing that happens first in time is the cause and the one that happens later is the effect.

 

Literally thousands of golfers have told me that the stationary golf ball makes it more difficult mentally precisely because that very fact makes it harder to shift to the kind of athletic mindset they had in other sports with a moving ball.

 

First they notice that they are in a tense, thinking, non-athletic mindset - THEN they come to the conclusion.

 

No one is simply "making up" the belief that golf is hard mentally..".

 

I'm going to bypass your condescending remark as to what I know and don't know.

 

You seem to be mixing "golf is hard mentally" with "golf swing is hard mentally". I'll say it again. Hitting a golf ball is not difficult. Making the ball move the way you want and managing misses and emotions is what is difficult. Give the average person 10 shots at hitting a golf ball and 10 swings at a fastball and which ball do you think will be hit more often?

 

Do you really think that Jasonic as a 5 cap has difficulty hitting the golf ball? He would have to demonstrate some level of competence at hitting the ball to be a 5. His inability to "break through" has nothing to do with not being mentally capable of hitting the ball.

 

You really do have a severe comprehension problem, don't you? Or at best you just suck at listening.

 

J just told you exactly what his experience was, that the stationary ball made it tough for him to be athletic and reactive compared to to other sports, and yet you still dismiss his report. And his experience is well known among golfers of all skill levels.

 

You seem to be easily threatened by other golfers posting about their experiences, if it contradicts your own belief system and experience....I wonder why that is?

[wmblake2000]

WM,

 

We are of like mind, I've struggled with the org chart of thought on the swing seemingly forever. In reality it takes hand/arms AND body to flatten the shaft but the mechanism to manage and automate it is where I failed a lot in the past year or so. I've gotten to the point where the arm/hand triangle is pretty good but I'm just getting aware of what the body really needs to do and what improvements need to made.The concept of "swing down hill" has been huge and importance of the core firing and stabilizing the swing come to mind . Plus the concept of how the tail bone and caboose are used to counteract and balance upper body motion to facilitate it all. Those 3 things have been 'aha!' breakthroughs even though I've read about them time and time again. It's been tons of fun with the struggle though. :)

 

We are def in the same stream of thought (and about the same skill level - I fluctuate between 7-9 and think I should be a 4. Ha.. well, maybe. I keep thinking I'm due to break thru. We'll see.) The trick is when you're improving is there are a LOT of moving parts to integrate. No one can consciously do them together and while you're focused on one thing, several others may still be out of whack. I tend to go 'do this for a while, get it a little better, then do that a while, then do the other thing a little while and then restart with the first thing. They all sort of have to come up the curve together, or so it seems to me.

 

Jim Waldron wrote:

 

"You obviously do not understand cause and effect.

 

Maybe I can help you with that....

 

The thing that happens first in time is the cause and the one that happens later is the effect.

 

Literally thousands of golfers have told me that the stationary golf ball makes it more difficult mentally precisely because that very fact makes it harder to shift to the kind of athletic mindset they had in other sports with a moving ball.

 

First they notice that they are in a tense, thinking, non-athletic mindset - THEN they come to the conclusion.

 

No one is simply "making up" the belief that golf is hard mentally..".

 

I'm going to bypass your condescending remark as to what I know and don't know.

 

You seem to be mixing "golf is hard mentally" with "golf swing is hard mentally". I'll say it again. Hitting a golf ball is not difficult. Making the ball move the way you want and managing misses and emotions is what is difficult. Give the average person 10 shots at hitting a golf ball and 10 swings at a fastball and which ball do you think will be hit more often?

 

Do you really think that Jasonic as a 5 cap has difficulty hitting the golf ball? He would have to demonstrate some level of competence at hitting the ball to be a 5. His inability to "break through" has nothing to do with not being mentally capable of hitting the ball.

 

You really do have a severe comprehension problem, don't you? Or at best you just suck at listening.

 

J just told you exactly what his experience was, that the stationary ball made it tough for him to be athletic and reactive compared to to other sports, and yet you still dismiss his report. And his experience is well known among golfers of all skill levels.

 

You seem to be easily threatened by other golfers posting about their experiences, if it contradicts your own belief system and experience....I wonder why that is?

 

or just likes to yank chains

[oikos1]

Jim Waldron wrote:

 

"You obviously do not understand cause and effect.

 

Maybe I can help you with that....

 

The thing that happens first in time is the cause and the one that happens later is the effect.

 

Literally thousands of golfers have told me that the stationary golf ball makes it more difficult mentally precisely because that very fact makes it harder to shift to the kind of athletic mindset they had in other sports with a moving ball.

 

First they notice that they are in a tense, thinking, non-athletic mindset - THEN they come to the conclusion.

 

No one is simply "making up" the belief that golf is hard mentally..".

 

I'm going to bypass your condescending remark as to what I know and don't know.

 

You seem to be mixing "golf is hard mentally" with "golf swing is hard mentally". I'll say it again. Hitting a golf ball is not difficult. Making the ball move the way you want and managing misses and emotions is what is difficult. Give the average person 10 shots at hitting a golf ball and 10 swings at a fastball and which ball do you think will be hit more often?

 

Do you really think that Jasonic as a 5 cap has difficulty hitting the golf ball? He would have to demonstrate some level of competence at hitting the ball to be a 5. His inability to "break through" has nothing to do with not being mentally capable of hitting the ball.

 

You really do have a severe comprehension problem, don't you? Or at best you just suck at listening.

 

J just told you exactly what his experience was, that the stationary ball made it tough for him to be athletic and reactive compared to to other sports, and yet you still dismiss his report. And his experience is well known among golfers of all skill levels.

 

You seem to be easily threatened by other golfers posting about their experiences, if it contradicts your own belief system and experience....I wonder why that is?

 

Lol

 

 

[Jasonic]

Jim Waldron wrote:

 

"You obviously do not understand cause and effect.

 

Maybe I can help you with that....

 

The thing that happens first in time is the cause and the one that happens later is the effect.

 

Literally thousands of golfers have told me that the stationary golf ball makes it more difficult mentally precisely because that very fact makes it harder to shift to the kind of athletic mindset they had in other sports with a moving ball.

 

First they notice that they are in a tense, thinking, non-athletic mindset - THEN they come to the conclusion.

 

No one is simply "making up" the belief that golf is hard mentally..".

 

I'm going to bypass your condescending remark as to what I know and don't know.

 

You seem to be mixing "golf is hard mentally" with "golf swing is hard mentally". I'll say it again. Hitting a golf ball is not difficult. Making the ball move the way you want and managing misses and emotions is what is difficult. Give the average person 10 shots at hitting a golf ball and 10 swings at a fastball and which ball do you think will be hit more often?

 

Do you really think that Jasonic as a 5 cap has difficulty hitting the golf ball? He would have to demonstrate some level of competence at hitting the ball to be a 5. His inability to "break through" has nothing to do with not being mentally capable of hitting the ball.

 

You really do have a severe comprehension problem, don't you? Or at best you just suck at listening.

 

J just told you exactly what his experience was, that the stationary ball made it tough for him to be athletic and reactive compared to to other sports, and yet you still dismiss his report. And his experience is well known among golfers of all skill levels.

 

You seem to be easily threatened by other golfers posting about their experiences, if it contradicts your own belief system and experience....I wonder why that is?

 

Lol

 

 

 

 

How am I detailing my own thread (except by acknowledging your obvious misconceptions?) the threads ebb and flow and I just go with it. We are all glad hitting a golf ball isn’t hard for you and you figured it out. Please let us that aren’t as mentally and physically competent as you to continue to discuss it. Thanks.

[oikos1]

Jim Waldron wrote:

 

"You obviously do not understand cause and effect.

 

Maybe I can help you with that....

 

The thing that happens first in time is the cause and the one that happens later is the effect.

 

Literally thousands of golfers have told me that the stationary golf ball makes it more difficult mentally precisely because that very fact makes it harder to shift to the kind of athletic mindset they had in other sports with a moving ball.

 

First they notice that they are in a tense, thinking, non-athletic mindset - THEN they come to the conclusion.

 

No one is simply "making up" the belief that golf is hard mentally..".

 

I'm going to bypass your condescending remark as to what I know and don't know.

 

You seem to be mixing "golf is hard mentally" with "golf swing is hard mentally". I'll say it again. Hitting a golf ball is not difficult. Making the ball move the way you want and managing misses and emotions is what is difficult. Give the average person 10 shots at hitting a golf ball and 10 swings at a fastball and which ball do you think will be hit more often?

 

Do you really think that Jasonic as a 5 cap has difficulty hitting the golf ball? He would have to demonstrate some level of competence at hitting the ball to be a 5. His inability to "break through" has nothing to do with not being mentally capable of hitting the ball.

 

You really do have a severe comprehension problem, don't you? Or at best you just suck at listening.

 

J just told you exactly what his experience was, that the stationary ball made it tough for him to be athletic and reactive compared to to other sports, and yet you still dismiss his report. And his experience is well known among golfers of all skill levels.

 

You seem to be easily threatened by other golfers posting about their experiences, if it contradicts your own belief system and experience....I wonder why that is?

 

Lol

 

 

 

 

How am I detailing my own thread (except by acknowledging your obvious misconceptions?) the threads ebb and flow and I just go with it. We are all glad hitting a golf ball isn't hard for you and you figured it out. Please let us that aren't as mentally and physically competent as you to continue to discuss it. Thanks.

 

Jasonic,

 

Interesting how a bit of disagreement leads to such extremes in these forums. I never said I had it all figured out. I simply said I don't know why some golfers make the game harder than it already is. We can disagree on whether it is easier to hit a golf ball or a fastball, but the fact that you are a five cap, which puts you in the top 5-10 percent of golfers, and you still have trouble with a stationary ball makes me think you are making golf harder than it is. Once you have proven you can hit a stationary ball that would seem to be an advantage, not a hindrance. Now, making the ball move where you want is a completely different skill set than just hitting a golf ball.

 

Perhaps I should have initially asked more questions as I am now curious as to when the golf ball stares at you, what kind of shot do you have. Is it on the first tee? Trouble shots? Wedges from the fairway? 3 foot putts? I can't imagine it's every time, that it's difficult to hit a motionless golf ball every time. No way you would be a 5 cap if that was the case. Contrary to labels that have been placed, I am always interested in learning and I also have been able to comprehend and listen to all that has been said. Some of the comments have even been surprising and quite enlightening.

[hbgpagolfpro]

Hey everyone. This is the most conceptually confusing part of the swing for me and I think it's also the most important. Obviously both of these teachers I mentioned are highly accomplished and respected so I'm not saying one is bad or better but just trying to understand the two different thoughts.

 

Are these two different methods trying to achieve the same thing so it's just different feels for individual golfers or two actual different ways to transition?

 

One is to drop the arms/hands then rotate and the other from what I understand is to rotate while leaving hands "up" and the rotation shallows the club. Can't wrap my head around either one just because they seem like polar opposites. Get arms/hands in front of you and then turn or turn while leaving arms behind and they'll drop on their own. The drop hands one seems similar to Manuel De La Torre method of swinging the club with your arms and body will respond while the other seems like a definite body driven transition and the club will follow.

 

Thoughts?

 

My thoughts are always this...if you are thinking of what the hands are doing in the golf swing, you've got no chance.

 

When I started teaching a number of years ago, my focus was on maintaining certain positions in the swing. I hadn't played competitively in years, and decided to give it a go in a minor local tournament. It was October, and the weather turned cold. I struggled mightily.

 

The next season, I was reading Kris Tschetter's book on her relationship with Ben Hogan when she was in college. One day she suggested to him that she was struggling because she was pulling the club to far inside on the takeaway. His reply was something like..."don't worry too much about that...that young man who just won the U.S. Open pulls it way inside." He was speaking of Ray Floyd.

 

I then decided to focus far more attention on what the body was doing, and paying attention to my ball flight. My ball striking improved dramatically, and my swing held up much better under pressure. When you move the body properly, the hands will follow.

 

Just my two cents.

[wmblake2000]

When you move the body properly, the hands will follow.

 

Just my two cents.

 

I am 100% sure this is true.

I am also 100% sure that when you move the hands/arms properly, the body will follow.

I just don't think there is THE right way. But I am sure there is a right way.

[Jasonic]

Jim Waldron wrote:

 

"You obviously do not understand cause and effect.

 

Maybe I can help you with that....

 

The thing that happens first in time is the cause and the one that happens later is the effect.

 

Literally thousands of golfers have told me that the stationary golf ball makes it more difficult mentally precisely because that very fact makes it harder to shift to the kind of athletic mindset they had in other sports with a moving ball.

 

First they notice that they are in a tense, thinking, non-athletic mindset - THEN they come to the conclusion.

 

No one is simply "making up" the belief that golf is hard mentally..".

 

I'm going to bypass your condescending remark as to what I know and don't know.

 

You seem to be mixing "golf is hard mentally" with "golf swing is hard mentally". I'll say it again. Hitting a golf ball is not difficult. Making the ball move the way you want and managing misses and emotions is what is difficult. Give the average person 10 shots at hitting a golf ball and 10 swings at a fastball and which ball do you think will be hit more often?

 

Do you really think that Jasonic as a 5 cap has difficulty hitting the golf ball? He would have to demonstrate some level of competence at hitting the ball to be a 5. His inability to "break through" has nothing to do with not being mentally capable of hitting the ball.

 

You really do have a severe comprehension problem, don't you? Or at best you just suck at listening.

 

J just told you exactly what his experience was, that the stationary ball made it tough for him to be athletic and reactive compared to to other sports, and yet you still dismiss his report. And his experience is well known among golfers of all skill levels.

 

You seem to be easily threatened by other golfers posting about their experiences, if it contradicts your own belief system and experience....I wonder why that is?

 

Lol

 

 

 

 

How am I detailing my own thread (except by acknowledging your obvious misconceptions?) the threads ebb and flow and I just go with it. We are all glad hitting a golf ball isn't hard for you and you figured it out. Please let us that aren't as mentally and physically competent as you to continue to discuss it. Thanks.

 

Jasonic,

 

Interesting how a bit of disagreement leads to such extremes in these forums. I never said I had it all figured out. I simply said I don't know why some golfers make the game harder than it already is. We can disagree on whether it is easier to hit a golf ball or a fastball, but the fact that you are a five cap, which puts you in the top 5-10 percent of golfers, and you still have trouble with a stationary ball makes me think you are making golf harder than it is. Once you have proven you can hit a stationary ball that would seem to be an advantage, not a hindrance. Now, making the ball move where you want is a completely different skill set than just hitting a golf ball.

 

Perhaps I should have initially asked more questions as I am now curious as to when the golf ball stares at you, what kind of shot do you have. Is it on the first tee? Trouble shots? Wedges from the fairway? 3 foot putts? I can't imagine it's every time, that it's difficult to hit a motionless golf ball every time. No way you would be a 5 cap if that was the case. Contrary to labels that have been placed, I am always interested in learning and I also have been able to comprehend and listen to all that has been said. Some of the comments have even been surprising and quite enlightening.

 

You must be fun at parties.

[oikos1]

Probably shouldn't post your thoughts in a public forum if you can't handle public comments.

[bogeypro]

...

Are these two different methods trying to achieve the same thing so it's just different feels for individual golfers or two actual different ways to transition?

 

One is to drop the arms/hands then rotate and the other from what I understand is to rotate while leaving hands "up" and the rotation shallows the club. Can't wrap my head around either one just because they seem like polar opposites. Get arms/hands in front of you and then turn or turn while leaving arms behind and they'll drop on their own. The drop hands one seems similar to Manuel De La Torre method of swinging the club with your arms and body will respond while the other seems like a definite body driven transition and the club will follow.

 

Thoughts?

 

Back to the OP.... this topic always seems to become a muddy soup of discussion that don't clearly address your question.

 

Here's the bottom line.... How did you get your club to the top of the backswing? It was a combination of ( in no particular order) shifting pressure in the feet, turning of the hips, turning the torso, hinging the wrists, and lifting the arms. The transition is the exact same. It will require the same to get the club back down to proper impact. Some people will respond better to one method or feels better than another, but they are all doing the same thing - getting the club back to impact with with weight on front foot, hands in front of clubhead, etc...

 

Try some different methods and find the one that works for you to get you into impact properly. That's what its all about in the end...

[Jasonic]

...

Are these two different methods trying to achieve the same thing so it's just different feels for individual golfers or two actual different ways to transition?

 

One is to drop the arms/hands then rotate and the other from what I understand is to rotate while leaving hands "up" and the rotation shallows the club. Can't wrap my head around either one just because they seem like polar opposites. Get arms/hands in front of you and then turn or turn while leaving arms behind and they'll drop on their own. The drop hands one seems similar to Manuel De La Torre method of swinging the club with your arms and body will respond while the other seems like a definite body driven transition and the club will follow.

 

Thoughts?

 

Back to the OP.... this topic always seems to become a muddy soup of discussion that don't clearly address your question.

 

Here's the bottom line.... How did you get your club to the top of the backswing? It was a combination of ( in no particular order) shifting pressure in the feet, turning of the hips, turning the torso, hinging the wrists, and lifting the arms. The transition is the exact same. It will require the same to get the club back down to proper impact. Some people will respond better to one method or feels better than another, but they are all doing the same thing - getting the club back to impact with with weight on front foot, hands in front of clubhead, etc...

 

Try some different methods and find the one that works for you to get you into impact properly. That's what its all about in the end...

 

Played yesterday and warmed up thinking of the “downhill” idea that was brought up. Hit the irons better than I have all year but struggled with driver as I was steep (as usual). Good stuff

[Jasonic]

Probably shouldn't post your thoughts in a public forum if you can't handle public comments.

 

Handle just fine, sorry if you can’t comprehend a simple request. To each their own. I just don’t understsnd people’s need to derail and discredit a discussion because it doesn’t apply to them. Great for you! Again, please contribute and don’t derail. Thanks again for the third time.