The secret is

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  • powerfade66powerfade66 Members  451WRX Points: 62Posts: 451 Greens
    Joined:  edited Mar 19, 2018 #32
    Hogan really didn't care much about his swing? He is known as the guy that practiced more than anyone, specifically on his swing.<br />
    Moe Norman and George Knudson are better ballstrikers? By what criteria? Hogan is known and acknowledged by the greats as the guy that controlled his ball better than anyone. What is more he did it under the heat of major championship conditions and not driving range exhibitions. Knudson was one of many pros who used to watch Hogan any chance he got. So to put this in perspective you think when all his fellow pros and the spectators are gathering around to watch him at work on the range or end of his round speculating on what gives him that ability to rarely mishit a shot you'd confidently say to them "not much to see here fellas, he's just good at course management."<br />
    An 8 handicap would be off scratch or better with course management. This is whack... imho.
    Posted:
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  • dlygrissedlygrisse KansasMembers  13883WRX Points: 1,442Handicap: 8-ishPosts: 13,883 Titanium Tees
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    <br />
    There's no secret to his swing. He hit a fade, and he practiced like ****. Byron Nelson was a better striker than Hogan, and so was Murray Norman, and maybe George Knudson.<br />
    <br />
    I personally feel that Hogan's course management was the key to his success. When other people would gun at the flag, he'd aim safely to allow for better shot selection. He wasn't just a great ball striker, but an excellent thinker, and he played golf courses the way they were designed.<br />
    <br />
    I'm a self-taught 8 handicap, and I don't know course management. If I knew it, I'd probably be scratch or better, because I can strike the ball well enough to play to scratch, and my short game is superior to most (My putting, however, sucks, I have the yips). So if I could learn the course management of a Hogan or a Woods, or even a Murray Norman (He always said good thinking good golf, this is what he meant. Moe's course management was different than most), I'd easily make it to scratch or better.<br />
    <br />
    Hogan played the course, he didn't just work on his swing. In fact he said practice rounds were the best type of practice, because it allowed you to see the course in advance before the tournament started. Hogan really didn't care much about his swing, he cared more about playing golf correctly.<br />
    <br />
    I've seen terrible swings play par golf or better. I once witnessed an elderly man shoot 70 (2 under) on a breezy day in the cold, and his swing was really seriously ugly. It had a loop to it, and he rushed his downswing and faded the ball. Thing is he played for the fade, and had an excellent short game and putting. Most of all, he had good course management. I never saw him hit a shot he didn't think he could play, and he always seemed to leave himself away from the short side of the hole when he missed. He placed his shots so well, that's mainly why he plays to a +2 handicap and finds himself beating these young kids consistently who think they're going to be on tour someday. Really shocked me back into reality when I realized that if this guy can beat these kids who think they're going to turn professional, and he's well past his prime, with a hideous golf swing, then the swing doesn't matter. It's placement, and management.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    What you are missing is that Hogan had a terrible hook for many years, he didn't know how to really fade it, without the double cross sneaking in every now and then and ruining his round with shots going OB. <br />
    <br />
    The "secret" as he called it allowed him to fade the ball on demand 100% of the time with a swing that as a draw swing. Then, and only then did his ball striking become legendary. He states in the article the secret is probably worthless for the average guy who slices to start with, it's for high level players with strong hand action swinging on plane or a but inside out., hitting big draws and hooks. <br />
    <br />
    Knudson and Moe emulated Hogan, not vice versa.
    Posted:
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    Ping G400
    Callaway Epic Flash 3w 
    Ping G410 5 and 7 wood
    Callaway Apex 23*
    Ping G 4-U
    Ping Glide 2.0 Stealth 54, 58 SS
    Grips NDMC +4
    Odyssey Pro #1 black
    Hoofer
    ProV1x-mostly
    ECCO Biom Hybrid 3
  • AlexCzervicAlexCzervic Members  728WRX Points: 90Posts: 728 Golden Tee
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    Three right hands is a byproduct of the physics being advocated. <br />
    <br />
    AC
    Posted:
  • AlexCzervicAlexCzervic Members  728WRX Points: 90Posts: 728 Golden Tee
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    The OP is correct. IMHO, right arm structure appears to be one of the bigger ‘secrets’. Hogan’s secret was the cup. <br />
    <br />
    AC
    Posted:
  • Sean2Sean2 Members  32710WRX Points: 3,003Posts: 32,710 Titanium Tees
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    If I had a dime for every time golf magazines, web sites, etc., used the word "secret" when it comes to any part of the golf swing, I'd have more money than Bezos, Gates, and Zuckerberg combined.
    Posted:

    Treat yourself as if you were someone you are responsible for helping. Jordan Peterson

    Too much sanity may be madness and the maddest thing of all is to see life as it is, and not as it should be. Cervantes

    In golf, the human mind has much higher capabilities to screw things up than the physics has to make things better. Unknown

     

  • dlygrissedlygrisse KansasMembers  13883WRX Points: 1,442Handicap: 8-ishPosts: 13,883 Titanium Tees
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    <br />
    The secret is in here:<br />
    http://www.exrx.net/Muscles/TricepsBrachii.html<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Actually the secret to golf IS PUTTING.
    Posted:
    I pick 14 of the following:
    Ping G400
    Callaway Epic Flash 3w 
    Ping G410 5 and 7 wood
    Callaway Apex 23*
    Ping G 4-U
    Ping Glide 2.0 Stealth 54, 58 SS
    Grips NDMC +4
    Odyssey Pro #1 black
    Hoofer
    ProV1x-mostly
    ECCO Biom Hybrid 3
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  • 3eagles183eagles18 Members  921WRX Points: 111Posts: 921 Golden Tee
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    dlygrisse wrote:
    <br />
    The secret is in here:<br />
    http://www.exrx.net/Muscles/TricepsBrachii.html<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Actually the secret to golf IS PUTTING.
    <br />
    <br />
    Definitely the secret to scoring.
    Posted:
  • AndyCAndyC Members  146WRX Points: 57Posts: 146 Fairways
    Joined:  #39
    dlygrisse wrote:
    <br />
    Actually the secret to golf IS PUTTING.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    I think Professor Mark Broadie might disagree with your assessment.
    Posted:
  • oscar@wrx[email protected] Members  504WRX Points: 0Posts: 504
    Joined:  #40
    If it’s the cup, how should you cup it? Many ways to do it, automatic or not
    Posted:
    "Best teacher is yourself, with other teachers just giving you ideas to try. I like teachers who say--ok, try this FEEL and this and that..."
  • oscar@wrx[email protected] Members  504WRX Points: 0Posts: 504
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    Would you try to cup back that left wrist?<br />
    Would you try to cup back your right wrist?<br />
    Would you try to just push the club with left hand under by flattening the left wrist (like the Hogan waggle) but your right hand is weaker so left wrist still cups on top?<br />
    So many ways yet too little time to practice (for non-pros)
    Posted:
    "Best teacher is yourself, with other teachers just giving you ideas to try. I like teachers who say--ok, try this FEEL and this and that..."
  • AlexCzervicAlexCzervic Members  728WRX Points: 90Posts: 728 Golden Tee
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    Pronate left. <br />
    <br />
    AC
    Posted:
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  • WinKiePieWinKiePie Members  149WRX Points: 26Posts: 149 Fairways
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    Fan face open in backswing. Snap the face square and kept it square well past impact using his pivot. Most high handicappers let the club face swing past the hands which makes the face close at a rapid rate very hard to time correctly.
    Posted:
  • oscar@wrx[email protected] Members  504WRX Points: 0Posts: 504
    Joined:  #44
    WinKiePie wrote:
    Fan face open in backswing. Snap the face square and kept it square well past impact using his pivot. Most high handicappers let the club face swing past the hands which makes the face close at a rapid rate very hard to time correctly.
    <br />
    Would one not throw the shaft out with this?
    Posted:
    "Best teacher is yourself, with other teachers just giving you ideas to try. I like teachers who say--ok, try this FEEL and this and that..."
  • uitar9uitar9 Members  462WRX Points: 123Handicap: LOLPosts: 462 Greens
    Joined:  #45
    I don't know about the "secret" but a couple of things have helped me this year out of his books:<br />
    -starting the downswing with the hips<br />
    -turning the hips faster to increase swing speed.<br />
    <br />
    I'm getting a few more yards out of each full swing, killed my slice and dramatically reduced skulled shots.<br />
    <br />
    and DLYGRISSE-Yup, secret is putting, among the other dozen or so secrets.
    Posted:
    KZG OS11 12 degree driver
    Calloway 16 5-wood
    Calloway 20.5 heavenwood
    Cobra 24.5 9-wood
    KZG 5-PW irons
    KZG 52 and 56 and cobra 60 wedges
    TM Spider mallet
  • alansmithdcalansmithdc Members  201WRX Points: 78Posts: 201 Fairways
    Joined:  #46
    From Joe Norwoods site.<br />
    <br />
    Two years is a long time.<br />
    <br />
    Joe talked about Mr. Hogan a lot. He said that Mr. Hogan told him he worked on his left arm for two years. In his video Joe says Hogan worked on the upper left arm and shoulder muscles to keep his left arm straight. The left shoulder moves down vertically as the left arm moves horizontally back following the lead of the right arm around the waist. <br />
    Mr. Hogan worked on the extensor muscles from the left shoulder to the arm. The picture shown here is a swing different than what Mr. Hogan describes in his book. <br />
    It's classic Norwood. His arms and waist are at the same 45 degree angle at the top of his backswing.
    Posted:
  • AlexCzervicAlexCzervic Members  728WRX Points: 90Posts: 728 Golden Tee
    Joined:  edited Jul 4, 2018 #47
    <br />
    From Joe Norwoods site.<br />
    <br />
    Two years is a long time.<br />
    <br />
    Joe talked about Mr. Hogan a lot. He said that Mr. Hogan told him he worked on his left arm for two years. In his video Joe says Hogan worked on the upper left arm and shoulder muscles to keep his left arm straight. The left shoulder moves down vertically as the left arm moves horizontally back following the lead of the right arm around the waist. <br />
    Mr. Hogan worked on the extensor muscles from the left shoulder to the arm. The picture shown here is a swing different than what Mr. Hogan describes in his book. <br />
    It's classic Norwood. His arms and waist are at the same 45 degree angle at the top of his backswing.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Relax the left side, Left arm is at a mechanical disadvantage AND needs to rotate freely. Right arm support makes straight left arm a breeze. <br />
    <br />
    AC
    Posted:
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  • alansmithdcalansmithdc Members  201WRX Points: 78Posts: 201 Fairways
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    Thanks I'll try it
    Posted:
  • Sean2Sean2 Members  32710WRX Points: 3,003Posts: 32,710 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #49
    Golf has more secrets than the NSA.
    Posted:

    Treat yourself as if you were someone you are responsible for helping. Jordan Peterson

    Too much sanity may be madness and the maddest thing of all is to see life as it is, and not as it should be. Cervantes

    In golf, the human mind has much higher capabilities to screw things up than the physics has to make things better. Unknown

     

  • WinKiePieWinKiePie Members  149WRX Points: 26Posts: 149 Fairways
    Joined:  #50
    The three right hands comment is the hint that there is a specific way that he uses it to smash the ball powerfully and consistently. My take would be how he rotate it clockwise on the way back and snap it square without flipping it on the way through. But how he does it I'm afraid we'll never know.
    Posted:
  • GuiaGuia Members  8696WRX Points: 167Posts: 8,696 Titanium Tees
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    No Secret. He (like just about everyone) tucks in his right elbow, comes in shallow and hits the friggin ball. The secret is he practiced like a maniac and repeated the swing.
    Posted:
  • WinKiePieWinKiePie Members  149WRX Points: 26Posts: 149 Fairways
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    Guia wrote:
    <br />
    No Secret. He (like just about everyone) tucks in his right elbow, comes in shallow and hits the friggin ball. The secret is he practiced like a maniac and repeated the swing.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    You are right. That is one of his very pronounced move but I also noticed many low handicappers and professionals tuck in their right elbow and comes in shallow(many of them too shallow even). But many of them do not have the same release pattern as Hogan. For instance the most pronounced difference is Luke Donald, Ricky Fowler and Fred Couples. You can see how they flip the club face shut post impact while pointing the clubshaft straight at the target using their superb natural talent and hand-eye coordination while Hogan club face stays super square to the swing path well past impact and the clubshaft seems like its attached to his belly button both for draw and fade shots. I just think there must be something that he focuses on to be able to produce this swing mechanics consistently is all <img src='http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blush2.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blush2:' />
    Posted:
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  • moehoganmoehogan Members  1115WRX Points: 167Posts: 1,115 Platinum Tees
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    Hogan’s practice diligence certainly was an important part of his success but it did not cure the occasional hook that crept into his game. The “secret” that finally gave him his ultimate control of the ball is the one he found after returning home in the summer of 1947 in between the PGA Championship and George May’s tournament. It was not the “cup” as that was present in pre-secret swings as previously documented in this thread.<br />
    <br />
    After endless experimentation, Hogan had an idea one evening and discovered that it “worked like a charm “ in one range session the next day. He had finally figured out a way to get control of the clubface with the use of grip pressures that he alluded to in 5L. To my knowledge, he never publicly revealed the specific application of the right hand pressures ... therein lies his “secret”, IMO.<br />
    <br />
    The first “clue” that he gave was on the dust jacket of his first edition of 5L ... his focused stare on the two middle fingers of the right hand. “It’s easy to see if you know where to look!”<br />
    <br />
    Posted:
  • mfm22mfm22 Members  901WRX Points: 103Posts: 901 Golden Tee
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    Hogans right hand grip would be primarily form the ring & middle finger . The small pinky finger is overlapped & the index / thumb - pincer action was avoided <br />
    <br />
    It always looked to me that he allowed the club to " lay back " into a soft index finger , May have started down feeling the ring - middle fingers only no index finger to push shaft <br />
    more pull than push - sort of a float load
    Posted:
  • moehoganmoehogan Members  1115WRX Points: 167Posts: 1,115 Platinum Tees
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    mfm22 wrote:
    <br />
    Hogans right hand grip would be primarily form the ring & middle finger . The small pinky finger is overlapped & the index / thumb - pincer action was avoided<br />
    <br />
    It always looked to me that he allowed the club to " lay back " into a soft index finger , May have started down feeling the ring - middle fingers only no index finger to push shaft<br />
    more pull than push - sort of a float load<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Great observation! The right middle and ring fingers PULL the handle down, out and forward while motivating the winding of the entire right arm clockwise or "under" in transition and the DS. <br />
    <br />
    Keeping some of that CW pressure through impact counterbalances the last three fingers of the left hand turning the handle counter clockwise. The result is a stable clubface that is kept square to the clubhead arc ... no timing of the right hand climbing over left through impact, just hitting as hard with both hands as the shot being played requires.<br />
    <br />
    Pretty easy for a skilled player to implement ... takes a single range session to calibrate the opposing forces.
    Posted:
  • alansmithdcalansmithdc Members  201WRX Points: 78Posts: 201 Fairways
    Joined:  #56
    moehogan wrote:
    <br />
    mfm22 wrote:
    <br />
    Hogans right hand grip would be primarily form the ring & middle finger . The small pinky finger is overlapped & the index / thumb - pincer action was avoided<br />
    <br />
    It always looked to me that he allowed the club to " lay back " into a soft index finger , May have started down feeling the ring - middle fingers only no index finger to push shaft<br />
    more pull than push - sort of a float load<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Great observation! The right middle and ring fingers PULL the handle down, out and forward while motivating the winding of the entire right arm clockwise or "under" in transition and the DS. <br />
    <br />
    Keeping some of that CW pressure through impact counterbalances the last three fingers of the left hand turning the handle counter clockwise. The result is a stable clubface that is kept square to the clubhead arc ... no timing of the right hand climbing over left through impact, just hitting as hard with both hands as the shot being played requires.<br />
    <br />
    Pretty easy for a skilled player to implement ... takes a single range session to calibrate the opposing forces.<br />
    <br />
    Studying 5 lessons, I came up with a different possiblity. For the right hand, the grip pressure pulls down towards the clubhead. Stablizes the right hand nicely.
    Posted:
  • WinKiePieWinKiePie Members  149WRX Points: 26Posts: 149 Fairways
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    <br />
    WinKiePie wrote:
    Fan face open in backswing. Snap the face square and kept it square well past impact using his pivot. Most high handicappers let the club face swing past the hands which makes the face close at a rapid rate very hard to time correctly.
    <br />
    Would one not throw the shaft out with this?<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    You won't throw the shaft out as long as you keep the cocked wrists angle while rotating them counter-clockwise. This gets the lead wrist from cupped to bow automatically... i think <img src='http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blush2.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blush2:' />
    Posted:
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