“Two choices in golf. Improve slowly or not at all”

[Sean2]

If you took up the game a couple years ago at 40 you have a real chance to improve if you work hard. You can't imagine how hard it is to have played very well when you were young and your game slowly and inevitably deteriorates to the point you've got to accept this or give up.

 

I took up the game at 50, and I play with a lot of folks who lament how much distance they have lost and how their HI's have increased. So the one blessing of picking up the game late is I don't have any of those frustrations.

[Sean2]

A Navy SEAL discussing their approach in addressing new techniques, especially during the recent Thai cave rescue: "slow is smooth and smooth is fast". Good stuff, the last extraction took 2 hours less time than the first.

 

That is the mantra I use when I make a golf swing.

[Sean2]

I don't totally buy the premise of this thread's title. I generally observe periods of very rapid improvement, followed by longer periods of plateau. Overall, it might be "slow" (years), but those periods of improvement can be quite dramatically fast. This pattern seems to be the case with most skills, be it athletic or otherwise.

 

I have also seen this.. you build and build and build and finally, in a moment, it clicks.

 

Meanwhile, though, when sustained motivation is so important, maybe the single most important thing I learned from Monte was improvement is measured by seeing new move done better 1/10 then 3/10 then 6/10.... this incremental progress is the ‘build’ phase.

 

Indeed, most folks dont just go to the range, have something click, and improve dramatically.

 

Those who have a dramatic break-through likely have put in lots of reps, lots of time, slowly fixing all the little parts, and then finally put it all together and see the fruits of their efforts. I've shaved almost 9 strokes off my index in the last year but I don't think that would happened without all the wheel spinning I did for the year prior.Even those I didn't see the results on the course, now looking back it still had legitimate value

 

My favorite writer re consciousness development (Ken Wilber) says that breakthru's in awareness are also leaps vs continuous incremental. I guess you keep pushing on a new neural pathway until finally it forms, for both awareness and golf improvement.

 

I have noticed this. My game will reach a certain level, seem to stay at that level way too long, and then "magically" spike to the next level.

[Singapore Joe]

Just a little note, me and golf are the best of buddies again. For the first time in like three years my HC actually went down after yesterday's round.

 

Now here's to the inconsistency: had a stretch of four holes where I scored fourteen SF points in followed by a stretch of four holes where I scored three points [Aussie handicapping is on Stableford, not stroke]. How the game can just come and go on a snap of the fingers like that is maddening.

 

Question: does this fall within the expected distribution of scores per round or are the scores for higher cappers determined by random events (i.e. luck) rather than actual skill? The total scores tend to be fairly well predicted by the HC but the variance seems to be all over the place. In more concrete terms, a small miss in an approach may put you in a spot from which you just can't recover whereas an equally likely outcome of the same shot would put you in a position to putt for a birdie. Which one of those two outcomes occurs is not determined by actual skill but by chance. Of course, if it's luck then one can expect the outcomes to follow a uniform distribution (and lead to high variance) which in turn would validate the hunch that it is in luck.

 

And the good news of this broadcast: Practise helps. Been working on those dreaded fourty to fifty meter shots and have in the last few rounds lots of really good ones. And that other thread about engaging the lats also works. Been working on that and the shots now go to a very precise direction, just catch them a bit thin for some reason so distances are off but I guess that will come over time.

 

Edit: Madeline and Barnabas are on it today :)

[FatReed]

“Two choices in golf. Improve slowly or not at all. . . Genius”

 

Nothing confusing or misunderstood about that statement. It’s pretty clearly stated.

 

******

 

“Some have misunderstood slow as meaning you can’t make a leap in scores with a simple improvement.”

 

What other gauge of improvement is there? There is only a single objective in golf. . . get the ball in the hole in as few strokes as possible.

[Krt22]

A single good round or two isnt indicative of long term, lasting change. Sometimes even a blind squirrel finds the nut-hence the rest of the post you conveniently omitted

[terrell75]

I see a lot of commentary about focus vs change vs time... etc.

 

There is a difference between being able to perform an action one time, several times, and whenever you choose.

 

Each represents a different level of golf. Even at the highest level many golfers hit the ball one way (low, draw, fade, etc). Quite a few can call up a particular shot from their “bank”, but they have had to work to build their “bank” accounts. Realizing a limitation on a certain account may result in a desire to transfer funds to a different account with a greater potential.

 

Here is my point, to support Monte’s general statement. Ingrained change is physiological. The focus some of you refer to is not a magical energy, it is a physical sequence (neurons, nerves, muscles, etc.... all physical things).

 

I recommend anyone who wants to learn more about why certain golfers can adapt quickly while others struggle, read a book called The Talent Code. It will explain many things from a scientific perspective, and maybe shed some light on this topic. Anyone wonder why a newborn horse can stand and run in a matter of hours after birth, but a newborn human cannot and takes several months to develop these abilities? Read the book, get smarter (grow more neurons and strengthen neural pathways).

 

I was thinking about Talent Code as I thought about this thread. I was especially recalling a story about this music student of average talent who, one day, out of the blue, was utterly more focused and playing way above her normal level. Then next time she was back to regular performance.

 

It is one thing to have a peak performance. It is entirely another to make that peak performance become the baseline.

 

The other thing I thought was Talent Code talked about the cultural/environmental support that all led to the motivation behind all that focused practice. Part of the real challenge for most golfers is change is, indeed, hard, all those comments to contrary notwithstanding. The key is sustaining motivation and enthusiasm through the process so that you stick with it. That’s the critical element.

 

great thoughts. The book definitely reveals a theme. There was the spark, and exceptional situations that sustain the fire enough for greatness to take place and proliferate. I liked the part “do orphans rule the world?”.

[terrell75]

Is there a such thing as thinking too much?

No. Thinking poorly can be an issue.

 

Pisses me off when people tell me I’m overthinking something. I’m trying to understand. Not willing to give up until I do.

[bladehunter]

Is there a such thing as thinking too much?

No. Thinking poorly can be an issue.

 

Pisses me off when people tell me I’m overthinking something. I’m trying to understand. Not willing to give up until I do.

 

Bingo. Mindless wandering is an epidemic in today’s world. As is mindless following. Think folks. Don’t be afraid to ask a “ stupid” question. How else will you know ? Just take someone’s word for it ? Not me.

[ThinkingPlus]

Is there a such thing as thinking too much?

No. Thinking poorly can be an issue.

 

Pisses me off when people tell me I’m overthinking something. I’m trying to understand. Not willing to give up until I do.

We revere the best, truly great players because of their golf acumen. It has been noted how well Jack, Tiger, Jordan, and others thought their way around the golf course. They approached a round of golf both strategically and tactically. They didn't just wander around the course mindlessly trying to hit shots with uncluttered minds trying to forget every bad shot they hit. They took in all the information available to them, processed it to produce a shot plan, executed that shot, and then fed back the results for use on the next shot. Information is always useful, even when it is discarded because it happens not to be pertinent to the current shot, because it reinforces that all factors have considered (minimizes doubt).

 

What must be managed is emotion. Emotional attachment to outcome interferes with clear thinking and hinders execution. It isn't too much thinking that hurts, but too much emotion clouding the processing of information that is the killer.

[wmblake2000]

Pisses me off when people tell me I’m overthinking something. I’m trying to understand. Not willing to give up until I do.

 

Ha! I know that experience!

 

One of the things Jim Waldron points out is that often people approach a golf swing change purely through their ideas about and have limited capacity to feel their bodies directly. This certainly limits how well one learns a new swing motion.

 

On the other hand, I know I need a really clear mental map of the swing so that when I lose a feel or a feel no longer works I have some way to direct my efforts until I can feel the thing that helps. I just need a clear mental picture of what I am trying to do at each moment of the swing. Tying it to feels that correspond to the move I want and then getting to perform on auto-pilot is what takes time.

 

What causes the most trouble is the 1) feel isn't real - where what we think we are doing isn't what we are doing and 2) when what we think we should be doing is not helpful or even hurting our swing (mis-diagnosis),

[Sean2]

Is there a such thing as thinking too much?

No. Thinking poorly can be an issue.

 

Pisses me off when people tell me I'm overthinking something. I'm trying to understand. Not willing to give up until I do.

 

Bingo. Mindless wandering is an epidemic in today's world. As is mindless following. Think folks. Don't be afraid to ask a " stupid" question. How else will you know ? Just take someone's word for it ? Not me.

 

Yeah, I have been accused of overthinking. I quite haven't figured out how not to think. And, the only stupid question is the one not asked.

[Jim Waldron]

Pisses me off when people tell me I’m overthinking something. I’m trying to understand. Not willing to give up until I do.

 

Ha! I know that experience!

 

One of the things Jim Waldron points out is that often people approach a golf swing change purely through their ideas about and have limited capacity to feel their bodies directly. This certainly limits how well one learns a new swing motion.

 

On the other hand, I know I need a really clear mental map of the swing so that when I lose a feel or a feel no longer works I have some way to direct my efforts until I can feel the thing that helps. I just need a clear mental picture of what I am trying to do at each moment of the swing. Tying it to feels that correspond to the move I want and then getting to perform on auto-pilot is what takes time.

 

What causes the most trouble is the 1) feel isn't real - where what we think we are doing isn't what we are doing and 2) when what we think we should be doing is not helpful or even hurting our swing (mis-diagnosis),

 

I would say "UNTRAINED feel is not real" but you can learn how to train your feel channel to provide very accurate feedback as to what your body and club are actually doing.

 

In my system, this is one of THE most important skills part of my "how to learn it" model.

 

Intellectual understanding is what I call the "Swing Concept" and if you are a highly intellectual personality you will indeed need to achieve some clarity at that level of the mind, in order to proceed with making swing changes. It becomes a kind of self-fulfilling process. But there are golfers who require zero intellectual clarity to make a change.

 

The key is the change happening at the subconscious level or the "Swing Map" because those motor programs in the brain are what creates the body motion.

[wmblake2000]

Pisses me off when people tell me I’m overthinking something. I’m trying to understand. Not willing to give up until I do.

 

Ha! I know that experience!

 

One of the things Jim Waldron points out is that often people approach a golf swing change purely through their ideas about and have limited capacity to feel their bodies directly. This certainly limits how well one learns a new swing motion.

 

On the other hand, I know I need a really clear mental map of the swing so that when I lose a feel or a feel no longer works I have some way to direct my efforts until I can feel the thing that helps. I just need a clear mental picture of what I am trying to do at each moment of the swing. Tying it to feels that correspond to the move I want and then getting to perform on auto-pilot is what takes time.

 

What causes the most trouble is the 1) feel isn't real - where what we think we are doing isn't what we are doing and 2) when what we think we should be doing is not helpful or even hurting our swing (mis-diagnosis),

 

I would say "UNTRAINED feel is not real" but you can learn how to train your feel channel to provide very accurate feedback as to what your body and club are actually doing.

 

In my system, this is one of THE most important skills part of my "how to learn it" model.

 

Intellectual understanding is what I call the "Swing Concept" and if you are a highly intellectual personality you will indeed need to achieve some clarity at that level of the mind, in order to proceed with making swing changes. It becomes a kind of self-fulfilling process. But there are golfers who require zero intellectual clarity to make a change.

 

The key is the change happening at the subconscious level or the "Swing Map" because those motor programs in the brain are what creates the body motion.

 

I think the person who can make a change without understanding it probably is perceived as having more talent...likely has more 'kinesthetic intelligence"... than someone like me. A lot of discussions on wrx go off rail because people with these two different (and valid, for them) ways of processing think there is something wrong with the other. I am wholly comfortable that my process is optimal for me, but not everyone needs what I need. For me, feels can be elusive, like smoke that drifts in the breeze, without the idea to anchor it in place.

 

But you and I share the same outcome objective - your Swing Map, my Autopilot. When it gets locked there... well, as I write this, I still think there's a role for the Swing Concept in that process, because a new motion will often disrupt another part of your Swing Map, requiring a corresponding shift. I have to recognize this 'resistance to change' and if I can see conceptually how it all works in the new version, it helps me embrace the awkward time. Sustained enthusiasm and motivation thru the ups and downs of internalizing a new motion is another huge piece of the puzzle.

[Atrayn]

Some of you need to google "Motor pathways in the brain," and do some more research

 

Sure, but many newbies (and long time golfers) can improve immediately without requiring any new motor pathways with instruction for proper grip and setup. Haven't you seen players who have no chance at any kind of consistency because of terrible setups?

 

I'll also add, I think scores don't necessarily improve as fast as players would like because golf is several different skill sets:

 

Driving

Irons

Short game techniques

Putting

Course management

 

I don't think any of these have anything to do with the others except perhaps grip. I've seen decent players score horribly because of terrible club selection and strategy (e.g hit it as far as I can regardless of lie), and guys who can bomb it can't even get it on the green from 30 yards without a couple of attempts.

 

I can tell you for sure that everything above except course management have one thing especially in common....the right elbow. If that elbow is in the right position consistently, most recreational golfers would have an epiphany.....

[Pepe8714]

"Dress me slowly, I'm in a hurry" - Napoleon

[Hawkeye77]

Some of you need to google "Motor pathways in the brain," and do some more research

 

Sure, but many newbies (and long time golfers) can improve immediately without requiring any new motor pathways with instruction for proper grip and setup. Haven't you seen players who have no chance at any kind of consistency because of terrible setups?

 

I'll also add, I think scores don't necessarily improve as fast as players would like because golf is several different skill sets:

 

Driving

Irons

Short game techniques

Putting

Course management

 

I don't think any of these have anything to do with the others except perhaps grip. I've seen decent players score horribly because of terrible club selection and strategy (e.g hit it as far as I can regardless of lie), and guys who can bomb it can't even get it on the green from 30 yards without a couple of attempts.

 

I can tell you for sure that everything above except course management have one thing especially in common....the right elbow. If that elbow is in the right position consistently, most recreational golfers would have an epiphany.....

 

. . . . and the advent of better ball striking!

[Swingman420]

As far as what Jim Waldron said (always enjoy your thoughtful postings btw) my experience is that all the feel we need for golf is absolutely a different form of consciousness from normal day to day for most intellectuals.

My whole life was about this for many years.

YES! You can learn to tap into real feel. YES you can actually get to know what the swing is REALLY doing.

Teaching this kind of thing is a talent like anything else.

From what I have seen in my experience almost every golf teacher overteaches all the time.

Less can be more.

 

[leekgolf]

Ask a smoker of 20 years to quit and he will tell you how long and hard the process was.

 

The same with a bad habit or understanding of the swing. The deconstruction is part of the learning and that too can take time.

 

Some of y'all need to become simpletons instead of asking and questioning why the world isn't flat.

 

Lol. But I can show you 2 real people from differen instances who smoked for 30 plus and 40plus years who laid them down one day and never smoked again. It's all in the mind. Question is how strong is your mind.

 

I'm someone who smoked for 30 years and laid them down one day and haven't smoked in 10 years. It's not mental strength in my case.I can't tell you how many times I tried to quit, probably 5 maybe 10 times. Once I quit for a year, but just tried one. Soon it was one per week, then one day I bought a pack and that was that. The last time I was just ready and I had learned by then that when I quit, it means none ever. . My friend told me he had lung cancer and the same week my brother-in-law told me he had Leukemia. I decided it was time. It's not strength, it's motivation and knowledge in my case.